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Wounded Ronin
I found an essay on yellow peril novels and their history. Since 1st and 2nd ed SR had a lot of 80s style orientalism I figure that the original yellow peril novels such as the Fu Manchu series are the forerunners of some of those shticks.

http://www.violetbooks.com/yellowperil.html

QUOTE

The first true Yellow Peril figure — that is, an intelligent, evil mastermind intent on destroying the West — did not appear until 1892. The dime novel Nugget Library, home to the character Tom Edison, Jr., published a story entitled "Tom Edison Jr.'s Electric Sea Spider, or, The Wizard of the Submarine World." The story featured Kiang Ho, a Mongolian or Chinese (the story refers to him as both) warlord & pirate who controls a port in China & prowls the seas, using a fleet of ships & a super-submarine to capture & sink all Western shipping. Kiang Ho is also Harvard-educated & more literate & articulate than one would expect. He is eventually defeated & killed by Tom Edison, Jr., but for most of the story poses a significant threat. "Tom Edison Jr.'s Electric Sea Spider" was credited to "Philip Reade," but "Reade" was a house name for Street & Smith, the publishers of the Nugget Library, & so Kiang Ho's true creator might never be known.
Mercer
I always felt the treatment of the Japanese in the CalFree book was pretty harsh. Not that there weren't historical justifications for the material, and not that in dystopian cyberpunk anybody gets off easy, but there was still an element of the San Fran section that seemed offensive to me.

There are grim, meathook realities that I think the SR books (being an rpg aimed at more mature, or let's say "older" roleplayers) should reflect, and then there is painting an entire culture as a villain. In my opinion, the SF chapter of CalFree crossed that line.

My 2 nuyen. And in all fairness, its been about 8 years since I read my CalFree book, but its an impression that has stuck with me.
Daddy's Little Ninja
Since SR started with the Japanese dominating the corporate scene I think it went far enough down the road already. As a RL Japanese-American I can safely say my big brothers are more likely to be involved in mind control over a liquor store clerk than anything else.
Adarael
You're not wrong. You're really not wrong at all.
And all historical precedent for imperialism aside, it painted the Japanese people as being uniformly "Ha ha ha, we kick you, gaijin dog!"

I think that's really the part that bothered me. When the conservative Japanese groupthink gets rolling, watch the hell out, cuz it'll bulldoze you. But I think having the entire cultural basis of the Japanese in CalFree revert to an 1890s mode of thought (because from around 1910-1940, they were all over absorbing european Gaijin culture, and then back to the same from about 1965 onwards) is just retarded.

It'd be like going, "Lol, Germany in 2070 burns jews and gypsies."
hyzmarca
Best Yellow-Peril villain ever!

Critias
I don't think the Japanese are treated unfairly, compared to everyone but the Indians (whoops, I mean Native Americans). They made out like bandits in Shadowrun, able to somehow overcome the US military (not "hold out against them," just to nip in the bud any Iraq jokes, but "kick them out") and are, for the most part, portrayed in a fairly positive manner.

But there are plenty of other nationalities, not only the Japanese, that are raked over the proverbial coals in the Shadowrun timeline and setting. And why? Well, because the world sucks, that's why. In order for it to be a grim and gritty place full of tangible evils for Billy-Idol-With-An-Uzi to rebel against, you've got to have a bunch of bad guys inhabiting it. So in addition to megacorps showing up (most of which are nothing but stereotypes of whatever nation they're based out of, anyways), national governments got dumbed down and scratched up.

There are far more nationalities made to look bad in Shadowrun than made to look good. And with the entire cyberpunk era laced with paranoia about the Japanese taking over -- heck, I remember comedies from the late 80s about Japanese companies owning good chunks of America, the fear/reality was so prevalent and long-standing people were able to poke fun at it -- it's only natural that Japan receive a little extra attention in the setting itself.

Once they were established as metaracists as a culture (and, well, it's not like there's no precedent or the Japanese to be obsessed with racial purity), it was easy to just make them keep getting worse and worse. *shrug*

But if you remember it's just a fictional setting nestled within a fictional setting, I certainly don't see it as anything worth getting bothered over.
Gerzel
QUOTE (Critias)


But if you remember it's just a fictional setting nestled within a fictional setting, I certainly don't see it as anything worth getting bothered over.

Very true.

But I would like to see a bit more of a change in the politics of SR. Japan itself in SR I see as running for a fall. Their Megas are streatched all over the world as is their military. They have fostered a lot of bad will both over seas and in their own back yards.

Finally while the Azzies have avoided bad press for Aztlan spilling onto Aztechnology MCT Fuchi and the rest are still known as "Japana Corps" indicating that there is a strong link in the minds of people between them and their home country.

Another fact to remember is Japan has been actively ignoring and stifling many magical and awakened populations while overly embracing technology. Just think if someone where to take the time and develop are real matrix or drone viral bomb to hit Japan. Just think of neotokyo with all those drones, how many of them are really up to spec on their security protocalls?
Daddy's Little Ninja
Japanese activity is very much like the Pan Asian co-prosperity Sphere of 1935-1945. the image that Japan tried to put out to the world as justification to its imperialistic expansion and exploitation of other asian peoples. Only in SR there are no aircraft carriers. and CFS has replaced Korea. Just wait until Saito requires all people with SIN's in his sphere of influence to adopt Japanese names!

I agree it is just a game and I do not get hot under the collar because of it. Heck I find it cool that the Japano-culture stuff is that invasive. There are elements of Japanese prejudice in the game-like how the Yakuza were purged of the Koreans. That is very much alive today. (My parents were wonderfully supportive but they got flak from friends because I married a white guy. One of my brothers married a Korean girl and her parents are barely speaking to them.)

But I chimed in because for people to start talking about the 'yellow peril' it does hark back to a time when bigotry used general ignorance were used to oppress asians. the most blatant time being in 1942 when Japanese americans were herded into concentration camps because of the color of our skin and shape of our eyes. That is a sore point and 'yellow peril' goes back to that. Look at movies from that time. "Mr Moto" tried to show a cunning japanese good guy but the actor, Peter lorre was Hungarian! The charlie chan movies had Chinese actors in supporting roles but none of the 3 actors who played the lead were asian.

I can laugh at Dr Who's "Talon's of Wen Chiang" because that did have an element of tongue in cheek and made fun of the English as much as the Chinese. But I really feel it when my husband puts on "Midway" and the Japanese American girl insdide the wire complains to Charlton Heston "I'm an American Damn it!"
Daddy's Little Ninja
For Japanese politics, the 'grey suits' are the secret. Charismatic leaders like Saito are never really big and do not last. It is the efficent grey suits behind the scenes that get things done.

Glyph
Shadowrun is full of implausibilities, but the portrayal of the Japanese has always rankled a bit. It seems to take the absolute worst of the anti-Japanese sentiment from cyberpunk and magnify it. Even worse, it ruined Japan as a decent place to run. A fascist police state run by racist xenophobes? No thank you.
Gerzel
QUOTE (Glyph)
Shadowrun is full of implausibilities, but the portrayal of the Japanese has always rankled a bit. It seems to take the absolute worst of the anti-Japanese sentiment from cyberpunk and magnify it. Even worse, it ruined Japan as a decent place to run. A fascist police state run by racist xenophobes? No thank you.

I think it is time for a quiet ret-con
Zhan Shi
Which is more offensive...the portrayal of Japan in a fictional game setting, or the fact that such activities, and far worse, really did take place?

While I can empathize with Iris Chang and others, Mao's Great Leap Forward killed far more of their fellow countrymen than the Japanese ever did.

Having never visited Asia, I'm curious...is there a paralell "White Peril" body of literature/films? Things such as pop music with lyrics like "Another round-eye bites the dust", maybe?
Angelone
In my year in Korea with a couple trips to Japan the feeling I get is they don't like us much. The majority are unfailing polite but brush you off at the first opportunity, very few are rude.
Zhan Shi
Check out John Wayne in his film role as Genghis Khan (I'm not kidding). Probably the most monumental miscasting in Hollywood history, at least until Richard Gere played the role of King David. Industry wags refered to the latter as "An Isrealite and A Gentleman". Quite funny to watch, though.
Daddy's Little Ninja
John Wayne as Ghingas Khan is really really funny. unfortunately they were not trying for a comedy.

For a good depiction of Asians in movies try "Go For Broke" about Japanese American soldiers in WW2 .

As for a xenophobic, police state being a bore to run in...guys it is like that now. Crime is very low so any act really stands out. The Japanese japanese tend to be xenophobic and racist to the point of stupidity. A recent case was settled in rural Japan when a store owner refused to serve a black man. He denied being racist. He just said black people made him uncomfortable- and the courts ok'd this. (My parents lost a couple of old friends because they, my parents, supported me marrying a caucasian.)

Not to sound bitter but a run in Japan would require a lot of stealth and guile. Outside of a corp environment, you guys are going to stand out big time. Welcome to my world. I go out with my husband and friends and I will not be 'the lady with a baby." I will be the 'Asian lady with a baby.'
Wounded Ronin
I'm not really a serious scholar of asian negative sterotypes towards the West but there is really quite a lot you can look at. I suppose that someone could really get into it in the same way I really get into silly 80s portrayals of Asia in the US.

Generally speaking if you watch Asian pulp cinema males from the US are typically portrayed as icky, bestial, and stupid. Immediately coming to mind is "Kaori In USA" with a bible-quoting rapist prison warden, and the black military man in "Chiba the Bodyguard" upon whom Chiba is forced to use t3h d34dly 4s14n wr1stl0ck.

If you have the chance to see WWII propaganda look for lots of extreme racial portrayals in both US and Japanese propaganda.
Demonseed Elite
I'm in agreement with Critias, these institutions (nations and corps) were made into clear bad guys to form the initial setting of Shadowrun. The fact that shadowrunners often found themselves working for these immoral institutions is what created a lot of the moral conflict on the level of the characters themselves.

Yes, it made Japan a pretty much unplayable setting for shadowrunners. But back in the early editions of Shadowrun, Japan wasn't considered a setting for shadowrunners. It was an antagonist, while the shadowrunning took place in Seattle (or a handful of other presented settings, none of which were in Japan). That has changed over time to the point where in Fourth Edition things are taking a more global perspective, and some of the settings are being revisited and experiencing change, partially to make them more playable settings.

For Japan in particular, these changes started in Third Edition and will be present in the Neo-Tokyo write-up for Corporate Enclaves.
Wounded Ronin
Considering that Japan would have to be de-fascist-ized it sounds like the setting would need a huge overhaul.

Or else you can play in Japan but only if you're a NINJA.
Daddy's Little Ninja
Like I said, it just requires a different outlook and more subtlety. And remember, there are no ninjas. It's just a myth. proof.gif
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
Considering that Japan would have to be de-fascist-ized it sounds like the setting would need a huge overhaul.


They've already introduced reform into the setting via the new Emperor. It's not a complete reverse-face, but there's now discussion, debate, and change within the Japanese Imperial State.

The disagreement between various powers in Japan makes it more interesting for runners than a complete reversal in attitude would be.
Critias
Yeah. Rather than suddenly whitewashing the entire Japanese presence in Shadowrun, they've made it possible for a GM to -- gasp! -- pick and choose how they want their Japanese NPCs to act, and what sort of force they want various Japanese factions to be. It's no longer as one sided, to the point that the characters used to almost always be able to say "It's a Jap, get him!" because they were invariably the bad guys of any given session.

They made the Japanese so intolerant it was just kind of a given they were eeeeeevil. Whether it was the ruthless Yakuza thug, the metaracist security thugs, the greed-driven soulless corporate thug, the thug running a horrific bunraku parlor, or whatever other flavor of bad guy you needed for any given session...the Japanese could deliver (so long as you weren't looking for a metahuman, Mr GM!).
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)
Like I said, it just requires a different outlook and more subtlety. And remember, there are no ninjas. It's just a myth. proof.gif

Watch "The Octagon" with Chuck Norris.
Daddy's Little Ninja
The point is there have always been factions in japan. different corps, different government factions within the same party.different parties and the occasionally terrorists group(N Korean agents, crazies setting off poison gas in the subway etc.)But the point is that in Japan it is more subtle than many runners might be use to- more James Bond and less Terminator.

Remember: There are no ninjas.
Wounded Ronin
I decided that the test of whether or SR game is hardcore 80s orientalist enough or not is whether it emits this music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvCz9WRKem0...feature=related
shuya
while i initially balked at the treatment of the japanese imperial state in shadowrun, when couched in terms of dystopian science fiction it really does make sense. while it often gets glosses over in Shadowrun, the effect that the awakening had on people EVERYWHERE must have been terrible and horrific. i feel like a lot of the negative response comes from overly-PC-influenced people who are uncomfortable with ANY discussion of race or nationality, but the fact of the matter is, much of science fiction is based off of the taking of elements of modern day life and extending them out to their extremes; I don't think anybody who was experienced life as a foreigner in Japan would say that the Japanese are a totally open and non-discriminatory/non-xenophobic culture. You will even find many Japanese people today who will espouse the virtues of their homogeneous culture compared to other countries and who still subscribe to many of the beliefs put forth in the theories of "nihonjinron." Combined with the rapid culture shock that EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD must have experienced as a result of the awakening, the treatment of metahumans and the subsequent ACCEPTANCE of non-UGE people of different backgrounds isn't that horrendously unrealistic. I mean for gods' sake, when I was applying to a Japanese university I was actually asked the question "Have you ever tested positive for HIV?" There are many institutional powers who unfortunately are heavily influenced by this type of xenophobic thinking today.

Culture is not a choice, and it's not biological, it is simply what you are exposed to throughout your life. To complain about the portrayal of the end results of a culture of xenophobia that has persisted for centuries before William Gibson ever put pencil to paper is a little absurd--nobody has ever said that the Japanese are biologically inherently racist (well, nobody here anyway, because we are all forward thinking, reasonable human beings, right?). But if you raise a dog in a small cage and abuse him for years, you're going to be hard pressed to not have a "bad dog" when he gets older.

One of the major problems that I have experienced after several years of work in Anthropology, Sociology, and Japanese Studies is that you cannot really understand a group of people without that holy grail of anthropological scholarship, participant observation. But as soon as you become a participant observer in japanese culture, you start to become influenced by it. The majority of japanese cultural scholarship by westerners absolutely REEKS of overt Japanese influence, from "The Chrysanthemum and the Sword" onwards. You may not want to believe that you are falling prey to the same cultural trap that the people you are studying also are, but it's an impossible task to try to describe a group of 100+ million people without resorting to your own descriptions of a homogeneous culture, especially when they've all been raised to give the same answers to questions of culture homogeneity and what really makes them "Japanese."

kono posuto wa atashi no iken dake na no desu yo ne...
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