HappyDaze
Oct 11 2007, 07:49 PM
Nanoware degrades at 1 point per 3 boxes of physical damage. This is supposed to be from blood loss, exposure to systems beyond their tolerance, whatever...
That makes little sense for most of the nanoware in the book. For some, it completely nullifies their use while for others it sets up absurd situations.
Consider the Nanosymbiotes: you add their rating to your natural healing tests, but remember to reduce that rating (which can't start higher than 3) by 1 per 3 points of damage you've taken. The Trauma Control System is even worse: it only comes up when you're trying to stabilize and that generally means you've taken at least 9 points of physical damage (and at least -3 to the rating)...
Further, for many of the neural nanites, it doesn't make too much sense to have them degrade unless we're talking about the character taking brain damage (that's right - things directly touching your brain are not going to be playing in your bloodstream) every time he takes 3 points of damage. This applies primarily to the Neural Amplifiers and Control Rig Booster.
For something even more dumb, consider that you can litterly burn a guy's feet until the Nanotattoo on his face fades away (typically after 3 points of damage since most Nanotattoos are rating 1).
I really think that nanoware degradation from damage should be an exclusive feature of bloodborne nanoware, and that such nanoware should be specified, otherwise the rule is just stupid.
bibliophile20
Oct 11 2007, 07:56 PM
Agreed.
DTFarstar
Oct 11 2007, 08:35 PM
Agreed.
Moon-Hawk
Oct 11 2007, 08:38 PM
Hey yeah! I'll get the pitchforks you get the torches!
Good point though. I might have to add this to my house-rules.
Fortune
Oct 11 2007, 08:39 PM
Agreed™.
Rotbart van Dainig
Oct 11 2007, 08:40 PM
Well, there is some fine print:
Only active Nanoware degrades - the TCS requires a Nanite Biomonitor to activate it.
It's still utterly useless as it needs 2 hits with Rating dice minus modifiers... wich are usually pretty bad. Better keep the nanites out of a Savior Medkit stored & support in a Nanohive...
WearzManySkins
Oct 11 2007, 08:45 PM
Install a Nanohive, it will repair at 1 week per rating, anyway such nanoware degrades at a rate of 1 week per rating.
None of the N'ware you have listed lasts more than a couple of months with out a Nanohive.
WMS
Fortune
Oct 11 2007, 08:49 PM
QUOTE (WearzManySkins) |
Install a Nanohive, it will repair at 1 week per rating, anyway such nanoware degrades at a rate of 1 week per rating. |
Which doesn't help with things like healing right now when you are wounded. The Nanohive doesn't actually prevent the loss in the first place (unless the specific nanites are stored in it and not active).
HappyDaze
Oct 11 2007, 08:56 PM
QUOTE |
Well, there is some fine print:
Only active Nanoware degrades |
Not entirely true. Look att he second sentence of the third paragraph under Triggering and Shutting Down Nanoware (Augmentation, page 108):
Dormant systems still suffer degredation but also still benefit from the presence of a nanohive.
So really, it doesn't matter if the nanoware is active or not. You get hurt, it goes to shit.
Fortune
Oct 11 2007, 08:58 PM
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Oct 12 2007, 06:56 AM) |
Dormant systems still suffer degredation but also still benefit from the presence of a nanohive. |
A good start to fixing the problem would be to eliminate that sentence entirely.
HappyDaze
Oct 11 2007, 09:04 PM
Even dormant systems get flushed from the body as the nantites are excreted, broken down, whatever. I can see the reason for the statement. However, the best fix is to note that certain nanoware is simply not going to leak out of bullet/stab wounds even if it does degrade over time.
FriendoftheDork
Oct 11 2007, 09:04 PM
I thought the damage draining nanoware was an optional rule. Ah well it is in my game then
Rotbart van Dainig
Oct 11 2007, 09:05 PM
QUOTE (HappyDaze) |
Not entirely true. |
Actually, that only covers degradation through time, not wounds:
The latter rules specifically only mention active nanoware.
Stahlseele
Oct 11 2007, 09:09 PM
if they degrade at the same rate as the nanohive replenishes them . . why not simply build in TWO or more nano hives?
as for degradation from damage . . yeah, kinda tongue-in-cheek there x.x
HappyDaze
Oct 11 2007, 09:10 PM
QUOTE |
Actually, that only covers degredation through time, not wounds. |
Possibly, but since there isn't really a lot of clarification it could be interpreted either way.
Still, even if I concede on that point, my other examples still show the problems with the current degradation from damage rules (especially the nanotattoo - it's just too stupid to even attmpt to rationalize).
HappyDaze
Oct 11 2007, 09:13 PM
QUOTE |
why not simply build in TWO or more nano hives? |
If you've got cyberlimbs to stick them in, then sure. Otherwise the essence cost starts to bite you. However, the rules are silent on whetehr multiple nanohives can support the same nanoware. Even if they do, then getting back (# of nanohives) rating points per week isn't going to help in the short run.
Rotbart van Dainig
Oct 11 2007, 09:13 PM
QUOTE (Stahlseele) |
if they degrade at the same rate as the nanohive replenishes them |
Nanites supported by a nanohive slot don't degrade at all through time.
HappyDaze
Oct 11 2007, 09:16 PM
QUOTE |
Nanites supported by a nanohive slot don't degrade at all through time. |
True - as long as you keep your nanohive stocked every 6 months.
Rotbart van Dainig
Oct 11 2007, 09:18 PM
QUOTE (HappyDaze) |
Still, even if I concede on that point, my other examples still show the problems with the current degradation from damage rules (especially the nanotattoo - it's just too stupid to even attmpt to rationalize). |
They indeed degrade way to fast for the low rating systems...
QUOTE (HappyDaze) |
True - as long as you keep your nanohive stocked every 6 months. |
Refueling every half a year... that's nothing to complain about.
Raij
Oct 11 2007, 09:18 PM
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 11 2007, 03:58 PM) |
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Oct 12 2007, 06:56 AM) | Dormant systems still suffer degredation but also still benefit from the presence of a nanohive. |
A good start to fixing the problem would be to eliminate that sentence entirely.
|
I read that a little differently.
first off as we've determined, in the section named Nanoware Ratings and Degradation it says this:
QUOTE |
Active nanoware in the organism also suffers degradation when the body takes serious wounds |
(emphasis mine)
next, the phrase quoted here:
QUOTE |
Dormant systems still suffer degredation but also still benefit from the presence of a nanohive. |
is not in this same section, but rather next section down titled Triggering and Shutting down Nanoware
The general idea of this section is on how nanoware becomes active or deactive, based on certain triggers or the nanohive. They mention at the end of the section that "dormant" systems still suffer "degredation". It doesn't mention damage-based degredation so I am inclined to infer that the dormant systems above still suffer degredation based on time, but not damage. If they are dormant even without a hive, they are not actively moving around through the blood stream and do not degrade with damage.
Nanomachines that heal you are "dormant" until a trigger occurs, namely - taking damage. Once you start taking damage, they activate and start healing you. If you take damage again after they wake up, while they are healing you and swimming around your blood near open wounds, then this new damage degrades their rating.
The trauma control system becomes "undormant" when you are trying to stabilize, thus does not suffer the damage-based degredation for the lost health leading to the need to stabilize. They only activate after the body has lost that much blood.
HappyDaze
Oct 11 2007, 09:20 PM
QUOTE |
They indeed degrade way to fast for the low rating systems... |
So, how long would you suggest burning someone's feet before the nanotattoo on their face should fade away?
Rotbart van Dainig
Oct 11 2007, 09:25 PM
'Till his face is well-done.
Moon-Hawk
Oct 11 2007, 09:27 PM
One could suggest that the foot-burning facial nanotattos isn't really a problem specifically with nanoware degradation, but is just another symptom of having an abstract damage system without hit locations.
It's a silly and fun example, but it probably shouldn't be the poster-child of nanodegredation reform.
HappyDaze
Oct 11 2007, 09:30 PM
QUOTE |
It doesn't mention damage-based degredation so I am inclined to infer that the dormant systems above still suffer degredation based on time, but not damage. If they are dormant even without a hive, they are not actively moving around through the blood stream and do not degrade with damage. |
At the least, Carcerand-plus, Nantidotes, and Taggants all indicate that they are always in circulation in the bloodstream. Oxyrush implies that it is in the bloodstream but does not specify such. Active or dormant, these should be succeptible to degredation from damage.
HappyDaze
Oct 11 2007, 09:33 PM
QUOTE |
It's a silly and fun example, but it probably shouldn't be the poster-child of nanodegredation reform. |
How about the idea of your CSF leaking out along with neural nanoware every 3 points of physical damage? IMO, the abstract damage system and nanoware degredation from damage are simply not compatible with reason.
Rotbart van Dainig
Oct 11 2007, 09:34 PM
..as are Anti-Rad, O-Type, TCS, etc.
The problem is that some Nanite Systems... aren't.
Control Rig Boosters? Neural Amplifiers? Sounds more like cyberware.
HappyDaze
Oct 11 2007, 09:37 PM
Lymphatic system is a bit different from the bloodstream. While you may bleedout from a gunshot wound, the amount of lymph lost is relatively insignificant.
Raij
Oct 11 2007, 09:38 PM
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Oct 11 2007, 04:30 PM) |
QUOTE | It doesn't mention damage-based degredation so I am inclined to infer that the dormant systems above still suffer degredation based on time, but not damage. If they are dormant even without a hive, they are not actively moving around through the blood stream and do not degrade with damage. |
At the least, Carcerand-plus, Nantidotes, and Taggants all indicate that they are always in circulation in the bloodstream. Oxyrush implies that it is in the bloodstream but does not specify such. Active or dormant, these should be succeptible to degredation from damage.
|
Cancerand-plus
QUOTE |
Carcerand-plus is the nanotech version of carcerands, hollow molecular spheres designed to carry a drug payload that they slowly dispense as they circulate the body and break down over time. Normal carcerands are passive, designed to break down within a narrow period. Carcerand-plus can be programmed to respond to external stimuli such as the presence of a certain molecule, a sonic or electrical pulse, or a wireless signal from a PAN relayed by a nanohive. Once triggered, carcerand-plus nanites release their payload into the bloodstream. |
No, they CAN be active full time, but they are designed to break down over time anyway. In these cases, yes they would suffer damage degredation. However in the bolded sentence, it mentions they can be installed with a trigger or stimuli and if this trigger has not yet occured to initiate the Carcerand's gradual breakdown, then they are still "dormant" (or else they would be breaking down) and do not suffer damage degredation.
Nantidotes that are always active to provide immunity to a specific toxin, yes they suffer damage degredation.
Taggants, yes they are also always active and thus susceptible to damage degredation.
At least the way I will rule it is that any system that activates on a trigger may be considered "dormant" until that trigger occurs. Any dormant nano system does not suffer damage degredation, but still suffers time degredation. This primarily benefits nanosystems that directly respond to loss of health, which is why these rules seem silly in the first place, so it solves that issue without really affecting any others.
HappyDaze
Oct 11 2007, 09:39 PM
QUOTE |
The problem is that some Nanite Systems... aren't. |
Agreed.
HappyDaze
Oct 11 2007, 09:44 PM
QUOTE |
However in the bolded sentence, it mentions they can be installed with a trigger or stimuli and if this trigger has not yet occured to initiate the Carcerand's gradual breakdown, then they are still dormant and do not sufferdamage degredation. |
I assume that such dormant cacerand-plus nanites are all contained within the nanohive, right?
BTW, add Nanosybiotes to the "should be cyberware" category - they 'permeate your anatomy' and then 'adopt specialized functions appropriate to their location' - that sounds more like a cybersystem that uses nanites than a free-floating nanite system to me.
Stahlseele
Oct 11 2007, 09:46 PM
as long as it does not cost too much money . . as it does not appear to do, having to refill every some months does not seem so bad, having just reread the price tags o.O
while on the subject of nano tech . . what would happen to someone who had demolishers/smart demolishers injected?
and on top of that . . demolishers take things apart and convert them into base materials . . so deomlishers with one of those nano tech production thingies would ammount to grey goo scenario? O.o
Rotbart van Dainig
Oct 11 2007, 09:46 PM
Nah, Nanosybiotes don't really change anything... but some 'Nanoware' rewires your brain.
Moon-Hawk
Oct 12 2007, 02:54 PM
QUOTE (HappyDaze) |
QUOTE | It's a silly and fun example, but it probably shouldn't be the poster-child of nanodegredation reform. |
How about the idea of your CSF leaking out along with neural nanoware every 3 points of physical damage?
|
Yeah, that would be a better example.
I really don't think there's any point to nanoware degrading with damage. The degradation over time is fine, because that's going to be the big thing which requires a hive, but degradation due to damage adds a lot of bookkeeping and doesn't really contribute very much to the game, IMO.
QUOTE |
IMO, the abstract damage system and nanoware degredation from damage are simply not compatible with reason. |
Now
that I completely agree with.
Rotbart van Dainig
Oct 12 2007, 03:10 PM
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
I really don't think there's any point to nanoware degrading with damage. |
Given the colony sizes and soft nanites, it's about the same as imposing rules on immune system degradation through physical trauma.
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