I haven't yet built or run a character with skillwires. I get the impression that they're best done at chargen, so you can save lotsa BP by taking skills via wire not via your own mind. Running a PC who doesn't have a competent skillset in their mind, doesn't suit my personal enjoyment of RPGing, but maybe I'd do it for a mage whose personal skills were in magic.
So if you get skillwire 4/5 at chargen, what skills are most worthwhile via wire, and which skills do you really need to know in your own mind?
Do you houserule any limits on using activesofts for social skills eg Instruction?
Is skillwire rating 1-3 just for NPCs, or PCs built at very low level eg 150 BP?
Skillwires are available up to rating 5, activesofts only up to rating 4; houserules on obtaining activesofts at rating 5? do you have to raid a SOTA skillsoft developer, or can you just pay someone else who did so? (although getting a skillsoft of unknown source could risk some nasty features; see the thread on hacking skillwires, and add an intentionally designed "back door")
Full Version: Skillwires
get skillwires level5 and what else is needed and the skill CRAFT SKILLSOFT or something like that at level 4 and make your own level 5 Skill-softs O.o
Due to availability, you can't start with more than skillwires 3 at chargen. Skillwires allow you to specialize in a few areas and still dabble in others. It's really handy to backstop a tight build. Even a level 1 activesoft can be a real life saver.
They are also useful for getting around the neurological damage that may be the IC underlying reason for the 20pt skill flaws. The downside is, even with an expert system, you can't boost your active softs with edge like you can your real skills.
They are also useful for getting around the neurological damage that may be the IC underlying reason for the 20pt skill flaws. The downside is, even with an expert system, you can't boost your active softs with edge like you can your real skills.
Ages and ages ago (like, maybe in Shadowtech or the Street Sam Catalogue) there was some shadowtalk about how you could vat-grow someone and fit'em out with skillwires to get around all that lamey education crap. Could be a valid character concept, I guess.
Although the building makes it hard:
200BP on Physical & Mental Attributes
65BP on Edge
35BP on positive Qualities
50BP on cash
You're still going to have 50BP left over for skill. Perhaps you could be a troll or something to reduce the amount left over. *grin*
Although the building makes it hard:
200BP on Physical & Mental Attributes
65BP on Edge
35BP on positive Qualities
50BP on cash
You're still going to have 50BP left over for skill. Perhaps you could be a troll or something to reduce the amount left over. *grin*
and hence: biodrones came to be in SR4 . .
IIRC there's a shadowtalk about the bio-drone tech not working on metahuman-clones.
| QUOTE (Riley37) |
| Running a PC who doesn't have a competent skillset in their mind, doesn't suit my personal enjoyment of RPGing, but maybe I'd do it for a mage whose personal skills were in magic. |
That's the real question isn't it. What's "your mind"? Your mind is nothing more than the sum of all your skills and knowledge (and metaskills, some would call them "attributes"). With skillwires, your skills and knowledge are expanded instantly. Nothing makes your mind more powerful more quickly for more cheaply than skillwires and skillsofts. I never make a character without them.
| QUOTE (Blade @ Oct 17 2007, 04:57 AM) |
| IIRC there's a shadowtalk about the bio-drone tech not working on metahuman-clones. |
That's because metahumans are made out of magical pixie dust, completely different from all the other animals and paracritters on this planet.
Well, metahuman clones are made of pixie dust. The rest of us are just biological slop, like everything else.
| QUOTE (Buster @ Oct 17 2007, 09:40 PM) |
| That's the real question isn't it. What's "your mind"? Your mind is nothing more than the sum of all your skills and knowledge (and metaskills, some would call them "attributes"). With skillwires, your skills and knowledge are expanded instantly. Nothing makes your mind more powerful more quickly for more cheaply than skillwires and skillsofts. I never make a character without them. |
I don't disagree with their utility in the slightest. It's more of a flavor thing. I just picture my characters as actually having learned a variety of different things through their life experiences. Expanding on that is fine, but I think it is somewhat unrealistic (in my way of character visualization) not to give more than token acknowledgment to those life experiences through actual knowledge of the basic skills.
Actually there are some things in real life that are harder to do with humans. Partly because we are rather complicated animals, and I could buy this not working for technical reasons since humans have sophisticated brains. However I would advise you to read the Cyborgs section in Augmentation. I would say there is some ability to basically to use clones in conjuction with skill wires.
Skillwires can supplement a character, but they are not enough by themselves. You are limited to 4 skill dice and can't use Edge (I don't have Augmentation, so maybe that isn't accurate with some of the new add-ons), so it's not good to use for your main combat skills, or any other skill where you will ever need lots of successes. It's great to round out a character, but you are better off getting some essential skills at high levels, then using skillsofts for things like auto mechanic, aerospace pilot, and so on.
Yeah, but most skills are capped at 4 dice to begin with, anyway. It's cheaper and easier to use skillwires for all your backup skills than it is to buy them up the normal way. And with a Chipjack Expert Driver, some of the Edge problems go away.
This may sound silly, but skillwires strike as the kind of thing you install immediately after say your first or second run. It's only 10k-40k from basic to beta for the topline 5wire.
Or am I misunderstanding that you don't simply upgrade from one to the next, but completely replace one old product w/ the new one. (skillwire3 is 12availl, so the skillwire5 package is 20avail).
Do I have the correct impression, or is cyber/bioware commonly upgraded by one point rather than outright replaced w/ a newer piece.
Or am I misunderstanding that you don't simply upgrade from one to the next, but completely replace one old product w/ the new one. (skillwire3 is 12availl, so the skillwire5 package is 20avail).
Do I have the correct impression, or is cyber/bioware commonly upgraded by one point rather than outright replaced w/ a newer piece.
Typically you upgrade from one grade/rating to the next. Your GM can make the call how he wants to run it. Mine and when I GM simply have you pay the difference from one grade to the next and you get a nice essence hole( If going from alpha to beta) or dropping some chrome.
| QUOTE (Magus @ Oct 18 2007, 08:05 AM) |
| Typically you upgrade from one grade/rating to the next. Your GM can make the call how he wants to run it. Mine and when I GM simply have you pay the difference from one grade to the next and you get a nice essence hole( If going from alpha to beta) or dropping some chrome. |
I am a HUGE bastard to my players.
Huge.
Generally I require players, when purchasing complex cyber systems such as reflexes etc. to replace the whole system since its not just a "controller" unit that gets replaced... But a whole series of nodes, trodes, interface devices etc. If they want to "upgrade", it can be done, but takes the same level of invasive surgery and there is a chance in both cases that essence loss will occur (glitches by the dokteur). I don't gloss over the process and just say "pay the difference and get a new system". It takes big time contact rolls, availability checks, time under the knife (and the associated essence loss depending on how "hardcore" the system is) and the like. Generally this is all avoided by going to a nice, clean facility and getting quality 'ware. This means nuyen (ie inflated price by as much as 100-200%).
Essentially anything that would cause an essence hole takes high quality ware, a good doc and an excellent facility to not "fill" the hole with a bad mesh, poor installation or outpatient care.
So generally players tend to make a play for a rating 3-4 system and then just stick to buying new skill packages for it.
I am such a sunuvabitch to my players.
- der menkey
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemingway
Monkey that is really not a bad way to go, do you use the advanced medical rules in Aug?
I haven't found any "upgrade" rules in SR4 of Augmentation. As far as I am able to tell, upgrading requires purchasing a whole new implant. I don't even think there's an optional rule to allow paying the difference in price for an upgrade.
That said, I think it's reasonable for a GM to allow it. On the other hand, it makes sense not to... Cyberware is produced in a factory with high tech machinery. Can you imagine rebuilding a device by hand while it's inside a person? Sounds messy, and a touch unrealistic. Especially for higher grade cyber which you're not going to be able to just plug-n-play with various modules, it's so much more delicate that it really doesn't seem practical to upgrade in vivo.
That said, I think it's reasonable for a GM to allow it. On the other hand, it makes sense not to... Cyberware is produced in a factory with high tech machinery. Can you imagine rebuilding a device by hand while it's inside a person? Sounds messy, and a touch unrealistic. Especially for higher grade cyber which you're not going to be able to just plug-n-play with various modules, it's so much more delicate that it really doesn't seem practical to upgrade in vivo.
| QUOTE (noonesshowmonkey) |
| Generally this is all avoided by going to a nice, clean facility and getting quality 'ware. This means nuyen (ie inflated price by as much as 100-200%). |
Makes good sense from a RPing standpoint, but I don't do this because of game balance. Mages/adepts can initiate to improve, but sammies have to buy new/better ware. I've had four solutions;
1- Lay tons of cash on the players.
2- Allow players to sell Karma at a sick rate. (Essentially the same as 1.)
3- Cut the sammies a break; let them upgrade as cheaply as possible.
4- Sell ware for Karma.
We've had the best luck with 3 and 4. I suppose there is a fifth...let the sammies have the nuyen they need, and, when the mage whines, "Why don't I get that much nuyen," mock him openly.
You can also let them do runs for ware - since it's easier for the corp to launder cyberware than money, they can give higher value ware than they would normally give in cash.
| QUOTE (Hank @ Oct 19 2007, 12:43 PM) |
| Makes good sense from a RPing standpoint, but I don't do this because of game balance. Mages/adepts can initiate to improve, but sammies have to buy new/better ware. |
Don't forget to RP the mages. They have to learn their new spells and initiate powers somehow, from someone, somewhere... When do they do it? How much does it cost them (and I am distinctly not speaking about ¥ ¥ ¥ here)?
When I say that I am a complete bastard to my players, I mean it. Mages, if anything, have a harder time because its difficult to just throw nuyen at the problem of magical knowledge. You can, anything can be bought, but its not as straight forward.
| QUOTE |
| do you use the advanced medical rules in Aug? |
I have not had a chance to run much of anything using the rules in Augmentation. They are a little dry to me. I tend to base what I do off the rules but 'wing it' in game a bit based on what they player wants to do, what he says he does and the like. But the Aug book did give a great jump-off point.
In general I leave the "smooth" transition between gear or initiate grades or whatever to be player and RP driven. No one just looks up a cost for anything important in a book and says "I want that"... I mean, sure, players do that all the time... I just say "Who do you know that can get you that, much less at that price?" and the games begin. When a character is entering a set piece upgrade (initiation or going from wired 1 to wired 3 alpha ware or whatever) there is generally a long series of comcalls, meets and the like based around it. Initiation 100% of the time takes a vision quest or something of the like. New cyber generally is above and beyond the means of the players and requires "favors". Either case, its sort of the Quest based storytelling method cut up into pieces (since SR4 works by making all parts of a story logical objects and letting players transition through them free-form) and allowed to happen as the players and I see fit.
The kind of game that I run works for the players that I run with. They tend to enjoy it. Do whatever you (and your players) want to do.
- der menkey
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemingway
Oh and to relate this back to the original post:
The skillwired character is an interesting concept that wouldn't last very long past the first session by design. As soon as that kind of character were released from holding they would begin to acquire "normal" skills immediately by way of human experience. In general their development would be pretty standard. Any increases to the capacity of their skillwire system beyond loading new software suites would be handled similar to any "Set Piece" character advancement since the skillwire represents the core character concept.
- der menkey
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemingway
The skillwired character is an interesting concept that wouldn't last very long past the first session by design. As soon as that kind of character were released from holding they would begin to acquire "normal" skills immediately by way of human experience. In general their development would be pretty standard. Any increases to the capacity of their skillwire system beyond loading new software suites would be handled similar to any "Set Piece" character advancement since the skillwire represents the core character concept.
- der menkey
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemingway
Not to mention that the skillwire character is very limited. Heaven forbid you need to attack with a gun, defend with melee, and do anything else at the same time. Or find yourself in a situation where you need to get lucky. You'll have a huge edge because you don't have anywhere else to put your points, but it'll be severely hampered by all your actions be wired.
On the plus side though, you'll be incredibly versatile. But you can get that by being a normal character with real skills and skillwires for the stuff you use infrequently.
On the plus side though, you'll be incredibly versatile. But you can get that by being a normal character with real skills and skillwires for the stuff you use infrequently.
And be gimped the moment you need a skill you couldn't afford at rating 3-4.
Wiht a Chipjack Edpert System, the Edge limit isn't as much of a problem. Sure, you want your primary stats to be higher, but having skillwires for the skills that'd otherwise eat up your BP's, isn't a bad idea. In fact, it works rather well in praactice, as I'll attest to.
Let's take perception as an example. Perception Activesoft 3 + Intuition 4 + Vision Ehnanchement 3+ Attention Coprocessor 3 = 13 dice. And that's not including all the nanotech that can be used. And all that costs less than, what, 20K nuyen in cyberware? 4 BP for a perception of 13, less than the cost of Perception 2.
Wiht a Chipjack Edpert System, the Edge limit isn't as much of a problem. Sure, you want your primary stats to be higher, but having skillwires for the skills that'd otherwise eat up your BP's, isn't a bad idea. In fact, it works rather well in praactice, as I'll attest to.
Let's take perception as an example. Perception Activesoft 3 + Intuition 4 + Vision Ehnanchement 3+ Attention Coprocessor 3 = 13 dice. And that's not including all the nanotech that can be used. And all that costs less than, what, 20K nuyen in cyberware? 4 BP for a perception of 13, less than the cost of Perception 2.
The Skillwire Expert system is better than nothing, but it won't give you more dice, let you make long shot tests, or any other edge bonuses that are slipping my mind.
Your 13 dice include 10 dice that natural perception would also benefit from, so you've really only gained 1 die. Yeah, it's cheaper BP-wise, but not as bad as the inflated numbers makes it seem. You spend 18,000 (3.5 BP) on the wires, exert system, and soft, so you're really only gaining 4.5 BP over a perception of 2, at the expense of usually not being able to use it in conjunction with 2 other skills and full range of Edge expediture. You also gain the skill wires themselves, which will make you more versatile via more BP.
I'm not saying they're horrible, just that they're not the be-all, end-all of having skills. It's just me, but I'd never trust perception (or shooting, or dodging, or melee combat for most characters) to something I couldn't use Edge on (at least not very well). Heck, pretty much any common use opposed roll skill is off the skillwire menu for most characters I make.
Your 13 dice include 10 dice that natural perception would also benefit from, so you've really only gained 1 die. Yeah, it's cheaper BP-wise, but not as bad as the inflated numbers makes it seem. You spend 18,000 (3.5 BP) on the wires, exert system, and soft, so you're really only gaining 4.5 BP over a perception of 2, at the expense of usually not being able to use it in conjunction with 2 other skills and full range of Edge expediture. You also gain the skill wires themselves, which will make you more versatile via more BP.
I'm not saying they're horrible, just that they're not the be-all, end-all of having skills. It's just me, but I'd never trust perception (or shooting, or dodging, or melee combat for most characters) to something I couldn't use Edge on (at least not very well). Heck, pretty much any common use opposed roll skill is off the skillwire menu for most characters I make.
For me, skillwires were the difference between having perception and having perception, any physical skills (thanks to infirm, stupid neurological damage), vehicle skills, matrix skills, medical skills and so on.
3 rating 3 and 6 rating 1 activesofts eat 9 BP, the rating 3 wires eat another BP and some change. So, for the price of a rank 2 skill and a specialty, I've got 3 rank 3s and 6 rank 1s. With my actual skill points going into a few rank 1 skills I want to be able to spend edge on, and the magical skills I'm actually focused in.
Also, remember, thanks to the non proficiency penalty, a rating 1 active soft is effectively 3 dice above raw attribute.
3 rating 3 and 6 rating 1 activesofts eat 9 BP, the rating 3 wires eat another BP and some change. So, for the price of a rank 2 skill and a specialty, I've got 3 rank 3s and 6 rank 1s. With my actual skill points going into a few rank 1 skills I want to be able to spend edge on, and the magical skills I'm actually focused in.
Also, remember, thanks to the non proficiency penalty, a rating 1 active soft is effectively 3 dice above raw attribute.
Infirm? Multiple Incompetences are the way to go. 
At any event, you've hit the nail smack dab on the head. It's better to have a skill on chip than no skill at all, and it's impossible to have every skill in a workable character. That's what makes skillwires a workable investment for any mundane character, and something to consider for an Awakened one.
At any event, you've hit the nail smack dab on the head. It's better to have a skill on chip than no skill at all, and it's impossible to have every skill in a workable character. That's what makes skillwires a workable investment for any mundane character, and something to consider for an Awakened one.
Alpha Skillwires 3, Alpha Rating 4 Cybereyes, and .2 Essence of bioware are a mages best friend at char gen.
Chris
Chris
With the huge Karma cost for mages, and their low need for cash, skill wires can be wonderful for a mage. Use all that extra cash to get skills you'll never have Karma for.
One of my favorite characters I'll never have the chance to play is a character with amnesia and rating 3 move-by-wire (I know, not chargen-legal without GM approval). Since he doesn't Know what skills he has, he chips them all the time. That was the trade-off: he has an awesome peice of gear not normally available, but he relies on it to the point of weakness. It doens't help that it's not just move-by wire, but a CAST, so he can be rigged if hacked. Definately more of a role-play character than a monster.
I always think of skillwires as a young punk move, the easy way out for those who can't be bothered to actually learn. Corp teams love skillwires because it means they can control more. Imagine a corp team that all have skillwires, and when they need a specific skill they radio control, who then downloads the skill to their commlink for them to use. If at any time they are subverted, go off mission, or otherwise tick off control, their skills are yanked. Saves on training. Real professionals and freelancers avoid them, unless they used to be one of the former.
I always think of skillwires as a young punk move, the easy way out for those who can't be bothered to actually learn. Corp teams love skillwires because it means they can control more. Imagine a corp team that all have skillwires, and when they need a specific skill they radio control, who then downloads the skill to their commlink for them to use. If at any time they are subverted, go off mission, or otherwise tick off control, their skills are yanked. Saves on training. Real professionals and freelancers avoid them, unless they used to be one of the former.
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
| Real professionals and freelancers avoid them, unless they used to be one of the former. |
So there is a new Positive Quality 'Real Professional' that makes you start as Skill Rating 4 rather than 0?
Honestly, Skillsofts offer a flexibility that is a real lifesaver for any freelancer.
Agreed. If you're going to make a generalist, then skillwires is the only way to go. That frees you up to have a hyperspecialization or two, and you can just buy up your important skills.
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