Its come up in a few threads, so I thought I'd start a separate thread to see if there is a general consensus on the issue.

The question: Does cyberlimb armor stack with worn armor, or does it count as separate armor, or is it averaged like cyberlimb attributes are?

Relevant passages, all from SR4.

335, "Cyberlimb enhancements use up the Capacity of the cyberlimb they enhance. The bonus to the enhanced value equals the rating of the enhancement. Only characters with a cybertorso can have cyberlimb enhancements with a rating higher than 3. When a particular limb is used for a test (such as leading an attack with your cyberarm), use the attribute for that limb (natural or cyber); in any other case, take the average value of all limbs involved in the task (round down).
...
Armor: Armor installed on cyberlimbs is both Ballistic and Impact armor."

149, "If a character is wearing more than one piece of armor at a time, only the highest value (for either Ballistic or Impact) applies. Note that some armor items, like helmets and shields, provide a modifier to the worn armor rating and so do not count as stacked armor."

I believe it stacks with worn armor, much the same as troll natural armor, helmets, shields, dermal plating, orthoskin, and dermal sheaths do.

I'd agree. The simple fact is, since hit-location isn't specifically defined in the mechanics of Shadowrun combat, there's no simple way to determine if you hit a specific body part other than aiming for it. Is it cheap to have 9 points of armor on your left arm and nothing else? Yes, but in that situation you'd be forced to make a called shot and aim for a meatier target simply because that's the way the system is set up.

Armor is limited to 4 in a limb. You need to have a cyber torso to put in more than 3. And due to availability you can only start with 2 in a limb.

I'd personally average the overall armor provided by cyberlimbs/torsos/heads unless there was a called shot being made and the armor in the location applied.

Think of the armor much like you would treat varied Strength in cyberlimbs.

I've always averaged all cyber-armor over the 4 limbs, head, and torso.

ie: if you have orthoskin 2, and you have 2 cyberlimbs, both with armor 4, then you have ((2x4)+(4x2))/6 ~= 3 armor average.

Armor worn then stacks with cyberarmor.

My rational for this is the comparison of the body mods like orthoskin, dermal plating, and the like with the limb armor. There is nothing in RAW to suggest doing it this way, but it's the way I do it. Some of us houserule things in line with our personal taste.

Just don't tell toturi.

But... that means if you convert your whole body to metal and pack on as much armor as they can then you get less protection(4 everywhere averages out to 4) than everything except Armor Clothing, Leather Clothing, and Normal Clothing. Hell, wear a helmet with those and the only thing it provides more protection than is the normal clothing.

I'm not a big fan of how it expands on the upper end, but I refuse to use hit locations, it slows down the combat WAY too much for my taste so... I add it all together. No one is going to get full armor everywhere with full cyber unless it is in a high power game of mine anyway.

Chris

Tarantula: thanks for making this thread... it doesn't really belong buried like it was and should be addressed properly. Unfortunately, in some ways I'm reminded of Randall Bills (the Battletech guy roughly equiv to Synner) who myself and many of my friends used to refer to as the human magic 8 ball... because his answers to rules questions were completely inconsistent for ages (ask him the same month later, get a different answer).

I love street sams... the SR4 cyberlimb rules were complete suck yes. But it strikes me that someone w/ tons of armor augments should be able to get say +3-6 armor. Any more and things get silly. (guys who it's impossible to hurt w/ full auto narrow from a HMG... yeah you can manage 60 dice of react, body, and armor easily if it's 1:1... which means 20 points soak is AVERAGE). The other reason is if you let anyone character get way too tough, the game gets way too deadly to other non-twinked characters. (if I have a game w/ 4 chars, i cannot in good faith only shoot the troll w/ the heavy weapons! even if I do am I picking on him...). And it's not right that every encounter involves heavy magic or the troll just takes name, kicks, ass and laughs at the peashooters while the other chars sip pina colodas.

I'm going to put this up front, do I think the RAW is a bit too severe on cyberarmor?
Yes and No. See above regarding keeping game fun and balanced for everyone. It says to average things, but then doesn't explain what gets averaged and how, and some systems like armor never even deal w/ localized effects.

Lets face it: cyberamor would be childs play if there was a hit chart! (30% shots hit the chest, 2x18% hit the arms, 2x15% hit the legs, 4% hit the head for a d100, or borrow a battletech hit chart (roll 2d6, 2: head, 3-4: lleg, 5: larm, 6-8: torso, 9: rarm, 10-11: rleg, 12: head; for you odds junkies that 2/36 in the head, 5/36 chance to hit any limb, 16/36 chance to hit the torso). Ohh there's your limb, you have 4 points extra armor there, or you didn't hit the cyberlimb so your orthoskin and natural armor kick in for 4 points... etc.

Why I think the RAW is a bit severe in the case of armor is the requirement to average the cyberlimb/round down. What this means is that unless you have 5 or 6 full points of cyberarmor, it doesn't matter to the full body rating. I believe this rule would work better if it was round up, or round nearest. (EG: 3/5 rounds up to 1, you need 5 more points to get +2, meaning starting char w/ 8points, +2 abstracted armor). (Lower on I prove the example on page 335 only considers the character to have 4 or 5 cyberlimb 'regions') Either that or the game needs to cap cyberarmor somehow (no more than 1 to 2 times the number of cyberlimbs...).

What kind of things do I think do people think of when they envisage this kind of character. (heavily cyberlimbed). Robocop immediately comes to mind... basically a walking piece of armor who had trouble standing and balancing let alone dodging bullets! However, I also think robocop is the posterboy for a humanoid cyborg as presented in Augmentation (basically the full humanoid body is a drone.. built up as a drone w/ armor and body as a drone... full metal all the way). Hell robocop even comes complete w/ the mental issues and building that are present there. To a lesser extent, the terminator comes to mind. (granted terminator is all machine... but he's a good cyborg candidate too). At what point are you better off just resorting to the cyborg rules to make a monstrous 'cyborg drone' rather than trying to warp normal rules to fit an extreme?

My goal is to explain why I'm reading the rules as written. And hopefully at the end to present how I'd try and errata this simply and effectively.
(and yes I am using a forensics format in my post)

Now onto the debate:
First, you do NOT include ALL the relevant SR4 text. You noticably completely ignore the second paragraph of cyber enhancements. This is why I'd tear up the charsheet if it was presented to me to GM. You can't just ignore one third of the section dealing with your augment just cause you don't like it. I'd like to hear your argument why that paragraph does not apply.

P336:
Cyberlimb Armor, Str, Bod, and Agility are all listed as cyberlimb enhancements in the table. Armor is listed with a max augment of (1-4) capacity 2xRating, the rest w/ a max augment of (1-7) capacity=Rating.

Augmentation p44. "use the standard cyberlimb rules on p335, SR4, unless otherwise noted". The ONLY thing it then notes as different is it allows you to customize a cyberlimb w/ starting bod/str/agi more than 3. For every point of each above 3, it costs +1500Y and availability +1, up to natural maximum.
Augmentation never deals once w/ cyberlimb armor. Not once at all. I'm saying that for the benefit of those w/o the book as some have posted "didn't augmentation address/clarify/change this?"

P335:
"Cyberlimb Enhancements:
All cyberlimbs come w/ Bod, Str, and Agi attributes of 3. These values can only be augmented by cyberlimb enhancements--enhancements from other cyber- or bioware systems have no effect. Cyberlimb enhnacements use up the capacity of the cyberlimb they enhance. The bonus to the enhanced value equals the rating of the enhancement. Only characters w/ a cybertorso can have cyberlimb enhancements w/ rating higher than 3.
When a particular limb is used for a test(..), use the attribute for that limb (natural or cyber); in any other case, take the average value of all limbs involved in the task (round down). If a task requires the careful coordination of several limbs, use the value of the weakest limb." (cutting off last paragraph dealing w/ partial limbs)"

P86. Condition Monitors:
"... and 8 + (Body / 2), Round up for physical. Use the characters augmented attributes rather than the natural ratings." ALso states to give a freebie box for each limb.

This is not a test, paragraph 2 of CybEnh does not apply, a player can legimately augment his bod (for a lot more nuyen and essence) w/ bone lacing. Bone lacing is the only augment I can think of off the top of my head which would enhance Bod for this. So the argument cannot be made that there is no other way to enhance Bod than cyberlimbs. Cyberlimb stat averaging only applies to tests.

I argue that reading of the text means physical monitor is based on the characters non-cyberlimb augmented BOD as the rating is not a test (where the cyberlimbs would average in). You're already getting 1 bonus box per cyberlimb of course. I could stuff some ailing health 1body weakling in a full cyberbody (say darth vader, he's the posterboy for 4 limb replacement!). He doesn't start with a lot of phys boxes, but cyberlimbs add +1 more/limb right away (he has as many HP as a 9bod character now), plus they replace his weak body score w/ a much stronger when when he actually has to resist damage. (though if he ingested some kind of poison or gas, he'd still be stuck w/ his basic 1 body, since it attacks his internal organs not his cyberlimbs; this explains why Vader is always wheezing and breathing heavy cause he's always fighting off the latest space flu!).

P. 140 "Compare Armor"
There's a key phrase here... "Cumulative with worn armor" that appears p73 (troll natural armor), p188 (Mystic armor), p202 (armor spell), p333 (bone lacing 0/0 0/1 1/1), p339 (Orthoskin, special note not cumulative w/ Dermal Plating).

Ironically, Dermal Plating by RAW is not stacking w/ worn armor!!! Only states it does not stack w/ Orthoskin. Therefore we now have a precedent. Cyberlimb enhancement armor lacks this text either. So both sources of cyberware based armor by strict RAW reading DO NOT STACK W/ ARMOR! Similarly, while all these state stacks w/ worn armor, none of them state they stack with each other by strict RAW! Two state explicitly they don't stack w/ each other. That should be clarified.

Please note that Dermal plating/Cyberarmor needs errataed... I think anyone in their right mind would be laughed off the board for arguing otherwise that these shouldn't stack somehow w/ worn armor. The only question is how do they stack?

Cumulative with to me means, that add all these sources together to determine a single armor rating to determine if it's phys/stun. Then treat that rating singly in all further tests. That's how I read this. (though there are some areas where this really does need clarified, such as ItNW plus worn armor). It's unclear if there's any situations in which the -4 APDS would apply more than once against multiple armors or ever doubly up to -8 dicepool for example. Generally best case for an example, is to include a complex example instead of a simple one so people can see more mods in play at once, but the SRun examples don't seem to follow that rule.

P. 140. "Damage Resistance Test" <-- There's that magical word again test!
"The defender rolls attribute + modified armor value to resist damage."

Firstly, i'm going to state this here and now so it's not buried... I believe the RAW mean that you get 1 point of armor for every 5 points of cyberarmor. Read along to see my math and logic (including the SR4 example in book!)

So here's the prime bone of contention. We have a clearly defined test dice roll here. Now what was shot at... the entire body (he was hit randomly somewhere so the system abstracts it). What do the cyberlimb enhancements rule on page 335 say to do. Average the value of all portions involved round down.

The first part is simple, the attribute is body. Tarantula, you already agreed here that you average the body for all the cyberlimbs against normal body to get a "Test Augmented" body score (EG: 13 dice instead of 11). I agree w/ you by strict RAW! So we already have potentially a very/very strong piece of cyber driving someones weak body score way up! And potentially adding quite a few dice of body to a damage resistance test before even touching armor! Hell it's even explicit in the example on p335 (if he gets shot he uses the full body). Now look at the fun!

Even the example doesn't help much... "If he gets shot, he uses the average value of his body attributes, rounded down, -- in this case 4". Well what's being rounded and how? Body 3 natural start, cybertorso 6, LeftArm 3, LLeg 5. That's 4 different scores for what 4, 5, or 6 different zones? Lets start w/ straight average of 4 scores. 3+6+3+5==17/4==4.25. Lets forget the head and consider it standalone (since it'd only be a cyberskull at best), (3+3)+6+3+5==20/5==4!!! Lets now add head, rightleg, right arm... (3+3+3)+6+3+5==23/6==3!!!!

The example's math (unless it's an error) clearly argues that the head does NOT count as an independant zone for averaging! (really how much can you stuff ina cyberskull... it seems kinda unfair as it'd gimp the rest of the cyberlimbs which have at least 10capacity for augments). The treatment of helmets in the normal armor section argues this as well (I don't honostly believe the helmet is only +1/+2 armor even in your thread Tarantula for called shot to the head), I believe it's only +1 ballistic because the heads unlikely to be hit comparative to the rest of the body and that +1 is simply what's leftover after being multpled by say 5-10% headshot chance). By a simliar token, impact armor is more often used in melee.. and there headshots are much easier than at range, so +2 reflects this as a much more likely spot to be hit abstractly.

If the armor were truly piecemeal, I'd expect the helmet to be say 6/8 in it's own right but only for shots that hit the head. But abstracted it's only +1 additional armor over the 8 points covering the rest of the body if only 10% of shots hit the head.

So a bigger question becomes... how is armor reflected by the game? How many cyber locations are there truly to average? I think the example clearly demonstrates there are 5 zones (both arms, legs, and rest of body) for averaging. Effectively this means each point of cyberarmor if averaged is 1/5th of a point. For every 5 points cyberarmor, this would result in 1 point of abstracted armor over the body. That is what I consider the strict RAW reading of paragraph two of cyber enhancements to be. (well technically not by strict strict, because it doesn't say it stacks... but we all agree it should to some extent). Who the hell wrote cyberaugmented armor w/o considering that there was no way cleanly integrate localized armor w/ the rest of the abstracted armor.





The only reason this problem crops up is because every other source of armor in the game is clearly universal by RAW! Even shields by a strict RAW reading grant armor to a character shot in the back or flank! (there's no rules text stating it has a facing). There's no rule stating a character w/ a pistol extended in his right hand a shield in his left. flanked and shot from 3'oclock ignores the shield. What is this... it's common sense! Do we need an errata explaining how shields work?

Granted any GM is going to apply common sense and 'houserule' the shield is facing the wrong way, you were caught w/o it facing them. But is this really houseruling, or just simply applying basic common sense because it's so bloody obvious that it shouldn't need to be written down! This isn't DnD where the shields only a single point of armor w/ a universal facing... the shields in shadowrun give a big +armor boost and can easily double a characters armor (vest + helmet, shield more than doubles! The entire point of why we're playing a RPG w/ a GM and not a thick binder rules game w/ strict hex/tile/inch based rules is because the GM is there to arbitrate the game in a manner fun for all. That's hardly power metagaming, that's just keeping the game fun for everyone.

Now we come to cyberlimbs which clearly are localized armor by common sense. Unless you're going to argue the following with a straight face. Blackbeard has replaced his peg w/ a Lower leg and 3 points of armor enhancement. Blackbeard now high kicks bullets out of the air matrix style to give himselve 3 points of full body armor for a mere 12900Y and .45 essence! (when dermal plating which is OBVIOUSLY full body would be 15000Y and 1.5essence!!!) To argue this completely defies common sense! (does this mean dermal plating which lacks the cyberlimb armor text as well, has 6 zones (arms/legs/chest/head) and is actually 18 points of armor! This is the logical position you're taking giving cyberlimbs special treatment.

The rules are even clear on this. The armor is physically eating up space in the limb in question, so much so that it's to the tune "OF THE CYBERLIMB IT ENHANCES". Text exact. If it's enhancing that cyberlimb... how is it also enhancing that other cyberlimb when it gets shot... even in the abstract sense?




If you're out to make things simple... I'd clear up paragraph two of cyberlimb enhancements. It starts out simple, but ends up a real mess because averaging is never explained in the full body sense.



P 149
Armor and Encumbrance:
I'm not gonna type this out... as it's long and just a fun speculation point.

Firstly, as the chart on p316 clearly shows. All items which give a boost to worn items are clearly marked in a +X/+Y format. All other items such as the trolls natural armor, have special text stating that it stacks w/ worn armor. Cyberarmor lacks that text, so technically it shouldn't stack at all (but I believe this is wrong and NOONE I know argues otherwise, everyone I know houserules this already!). I believe text should be added to the errata stating that the cyberarmor should be treated in the same manner as natural armor or dermal plating covering the cyberlimb.

The second paragraph is unclear, but I believe it pertains only to worn armor as described in the first paragraph and section. That's just common sense. Otherwise an overly rules lawyery GM could use the poorly worded second paragraph to justify a -1 penalty to agi and rea for every 2 points (or fraction thereof) over 2x Body. Though it does raise an interesting thought... is a cyberlimb 'worn'... could the character take it off and plug in a new cyberlimb . Talk about a fun way to get a F-rated cyberlimb smuggled when on travel . I don't believe so, but it is a nifty idea for a future book.


Game Balance: (especially chargen), follow the money stupid (or BP if you prefer)
My problem here is that it gets very expensive to add extreme armor in any way except to abuse +1 per cyberenhance no matter what. And a single cyberlimb or two is really pretty damn uber for the cost. What 1 or 2 essence (any street sam worth his salt has biocompatibility too). Now I can truly make str and/or agi a dump stat (or really cheap to raise up w/ karma later for skils like stealth, 1->2 only 6 karma). Hell this alone is worth the cost and essence, as BP here can save you tons of points in attributes and karma later.

Especially when I look at things like dermal plating or orthoskin... 15k for +3, 1.5 essence. So you're telling me, that this is complete and utter crap now? Why, the cyberlimb has tons of capacity... if the armor is generic and 2 limbs is 4 points... 2 essence has gotten me the benefit of 4 points of armor w/o buying ortho for the bargain basement price of 1200 (or 2400 alpha). It's so cheap it's laughable.

The more I break this into BP costs for various optionns, the more I realize how good this is. Customized cyberlimb works out to 3BP (15k) gets you 10 +1 stat boosts over 3's exactly where you need them, the limb itself is only 3BP to begin with. A single offensive arm is really really cheap! Compared to maxing out your full body stats.

I read Trollmans first comment as, "that cyberarmor on a limb should be no different than a trolls natural amor bonus". To this I fully agree with him. The problem is if you make this fully integrate at a 1:1 cost across the full-body abstracted armor... theres zero reason to do anything else. It's so cheap to add extra dice of armor that it's ludicrious to even consider other routes. Yes it needs to add SOMEHOW to abstracted armor, but at 1:1 the costs are just too good. If it's 4:1 you end up with a max of +1 abstracted armor per limb... 5:1 seems to be what the averaging rules entail but seems a bit rough.

What do you do... you have 5 regions, you have 1 point natural armor, and 2 points ortho in 4 of them... you have 3 points of cyber on your remaining arm. Averaging those 3 scores together across 5 regions makes a lot of sense.. Okay character has +2 abstracted armor. (3 points armor on the limb averages exactly w/ the rest of the body). +2 is hardly gamebreaking... the bp/chargen costs are really quite reasonable and balanced.

Even the essence loss is something of a wash... most chars are either cybered or magic. Magic chars lose 2 dice on healing checks just because they're awakened... cybered chars w/ 2 essence lose 2 dice just because they're cybered. Essence really turns into a big deal if you need to worry about your magic attribute (keep it under 1)... at 3 essence only now are you seeing any kind of real drawback compared to the other typical party members.

Falconer, I don't see anything wrong with what you want to do, for your game. However, the starting BP total allows some pretty wicked characters, of which the troll tank is one. Going to all cyber body for armor route precludes you from alot of stuff. No bioware, hell some of it has to be alpha or you can't have anything besides cyberlimbs/torso. In my games, with starting characters, throwing enough at them to challenge the troll tank while not killing the other players really hasn't been a problem for me. He is right on the same power level as they are just in different areas. You seem to run a lower power game than I do, which is fine, however for ease of use and because it makes sense to me since we really don't have an official ruling on this, I use the it stacks rules. Getting 4 armor by going all cyber with as much armor as you can pack on seems REALLY silly to me. You seem to want to use hit locations and alot of stuff that has no interest to me because I love the streamlined combat in SR4. Most of my players don't really back on the cyber anyway either because of armor or because it doesn't fit their idea of the character. From a numbers game, yeah, if you aren't a mage it makes no sense not to cyber up like crazy, but that has always been the case. Awakened characters and cybered/bio'd(/gene'd/Nano'd- now) individuals have a huge advantage over mundanes.
That is just the way it is. Cyberlimbs with decent armor now are an option instead of being ignored unless they were a defining concept for a character like they were before Augmentation. Let me look at something.....

Ok, 2 arms with Bod, Str, Agi at 5(we are using a human here)and full armor and 2 legs with same are going to run you 4 essence and 100,800 , an alpha torso(if you are getting the head you either have to alpha the torso or two of the limbs.) with all 5's and full armor will be another 69,200 , a cyberskull with all 5's and full armor is 25,200. So, all told you have used 195,200 out of your possible 250,000. If you use your rule, then the what.... 7,800 that you spent directly on armor gives you armor 4, kind of a crappy exchange. Also, keep in mind this character MIGHT be able to alpha one other limb, but that is it and right now he cannot use ANY bioware and no non-capacity cyber, AND has an essence of 0.05. So, cyberpsychosis HO!

Just saying, if the object is to limit your cyber maybe lower the max availability or the build points, limiting the armor this way seems odd to me, but it's your game so have fun however you want. If you want lower power, alot of people seem to enjoy the 320 point builds for lower power games, I think they lower max availability to 8 as well.

Anyway, we just seem to have some fundamental assumptions that are very different, you think someone made of metal and covered in armor should get 3-6 armor which is like an armored vest.... which seems crazy to me. I think a person with this much metal and armor should be as or more armored than a citymaster. I mean, a citymaster is built to withstand most ganger fire with no damage, which is exactly what the character is built to do as well. I mean, it is hunk of metal with moving parts inside with as much armor piled on the outside of the metal shell as possible.

Anyway, I am inclined to just leave it as conflicting opinions till the Augmentation FAQ or errata says differently.

Chris

Very true, rythymhack, I hadn't noticed that before.

Chris

Another question, related:

Given that AP comes off every individual item of armour, does someone with armour based solely on their cyber get totally caned by APDS?

AP is applied to the target's total Armor. Why would cyber-only Armor be any different?

In the discussion about ItNW in the Possession thread, wasn't it established that AP came off both worn armour and magical-spirit-stuff armour? And, if so, wouldn't that make sense as the basis for it being taken off both worn armour and technological-chrome-stuff armour?

That's one of the problems with that particular ruling ... it just causes more confusion.

No, it wouldn't make sense to do it the way you describe. The ItNW is an exceptional case when it interacts with 'normal' Armor. But in all other cases, Armor is Armor, whether it is from an Armor Jacket, or Orthoskin, or a Force 6 Armor Spell, or 2 fully tricked out Cyberlegs.

The ITNW ruling only speaks about ITNW. I haven't seen similar rulings by anyone else(writers or developers) on other armor types or other weapon/AP interaction. As Fortune has said, it only causes more confusion. The basis of the SR armor system is abstract, making it "realistic" is only going to cause more problems.

Ah one of the hot button rules-lawyering issues with SR4 - king of leaky game systems.

I had recently played a character who used cyberlimbs to augment his stats and armor in particular. Talking with the GM a few times we pretty much agreed that 5 points of cyber armor would equate to 1 impact/ballistic armor in general. It was cost probative in terms of capacity to armor up all that much.

As it stands with the rules, however, I have to agree with DrZaius. Because SR4 has no built in hit locations - ie all attacks are abstracted - the armor itself functions as written to give 1 impact/ballistic per point.

Somewhere between the absurdity of 1:1 parity and 5:1 cost-benefit failures would be the following:

Cyber Limb Armor- - - - - - - -Impact/Ballistic Armor
1-3.................................................... 1/1
4-6.................................................... 2/2
7-10................................................... 3/3
11-14................................................. 4/4
15-20................................................. 5/5
21-25................................................. 6/6
26+ 6:1.............................................. x/x

Basically this would allow a cybered character to acquire enough armor at 5:1 or less to turn an Ares Predator shot into stun damage.

Just a thought, maybe get the ball rolling in a different direction.

- der menkey

"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemingway

But now you are rolling into the realms of House Rules and not using RAW. The only things that affect RAW in my games and in Missions is the FAQ and the official errata.

I like my meat raw-ish. Sushi is raw fish. When I get a scrape the skin is raw. If I get shanked in a deal I might call it a "raw deal". You can make bails of hay out of (st)raw? In cuba you are surrounded by the smell of raw tobacco. Sugar in the raw.

Monday night raw?

You can take out a tank with a (S)RAW?

An HP laser jet prints on RAW port 9100?

Whatever.

- der menkey

"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~ Ernest Hemingway

Aaaaaaameeeeeeeeeeeeeennnnnnnnnn

I don't know if it carries over, but a general rule is if no official answers or errata is forthcoming, then text trumps table in RPG sourcebooks. At least it does on the CharOp forums.

Chris

I don't think it broken if someone fills out their cyberlimb capacity with two points of armor per limb replaced.

And lets not forget that cyberlimbs already give you an extra box of damage you can take. All the toughness of being made of metal doesn't translate as an armor rating.

Actually, none of it does, unless you specifically choose to add armor enhancements to the metal.