Hey guys, building a mage, wanted to get an average thing going...ended up with 19 dice in spellcasting and 18 dice in Counterspelling, which is way to high I believe. Think you guys could help me tone it down?

1 foci per test. You didn't list magic under your special attributes.

1 Foci per test? Interesting.

Sure it's not 1 of the same type?

And yes, so I did, Magic: 6.

You also forgot to specify what spell category your sustaining, spellcasting and counterspelling foci are for. I'm assuming illusion?

I think I might've misremembered about 1 foci per test. I can't find the rule.

definitely 1 per test.

Last paragraph of the Bonding section on Pg. 191 of the BBB

Alright, so there we go. You've got 6 magic + 5 spellcasting + 2 specialization + 2 spellcasting foci + 2 mentor spirit = 17 dice for casting.

and 6 magic + 5 spellcasting + 2 specialization + 3 counterspelling foci = 15 dice for counterspelling illusions.

Also, your trickster mentor spirit doesn't match the book. The book is +2 illusion, +2 con, will+cha(3) to avoid tricking.

Heh, I am the GM. But in regards to Counterspelling, I believe I added in the Tricksters boni to Illusion, which probably shouldnt.

For Spellcasting: Magic: 6+Skill: 5+Spec: 2+Foci: 2+Mentor:2: 17
For Counterspelling: Magic: 6+Skill: 5+Foci: 3: 14 basic, 16 for Illusion

Foci are attuned to a specific spell category. Thusly, your counterspelling 3 focus has to be attuned to a category (such as illusion). So, your base counterspelling pool would be magic 6 + counterspelling 5 + power foci 2 = 13 dice basic.
For Illusion, it would be magic 6 + counterspelling 5 + spec 2 + counterspelling foci 3 = 16 dice.

You know - I've only seen anyone in a position to use magic+counterspelling once...in an incredibly obvious magical trap, that, after beating the players about the head for the better part of an hour, was bypassed simply by letting the mana-based combat spell hit a drone, instead of one of them.

90% of the time you'll use the formula I gave above, where stat = body or willpower, so you're still up 1 die too many.

..."average" Sammy with 8 Initiative, 2 IPs, & Radar Sense 3.

"the mage is geeked..."

(you have to have an action to order your spirits to attack. A 4 initiative won't cut it.)

Seriously:

I believe Tarantula is correct, you can only use the benefit of one focus on a given action. That would make the Spellcasting DP 17. Counterspelling 16. You could still benefit from the Counterspelling focus if using the power focus for spellcasting , but as that is a different action. Also a Counterspelling focus needs to be bought for a specific spell type (e.g. Combat, Illusion, etc), so for spells not covered by the focus that's another reduction of two dice. Drop the Specialisation and that brings the spellcasting DP down to 15. If he is to be an "average" mage focused on illusions then I would also consider reducing his MA, and/or Counterspelling, and Spellcasting skill (a rating of 5 in a skill is considered Expert Level, that is far above "average")

I would also look at shoring up a few of his Physical attributes and Intuition just to make him a bit harder to geek. Also scrounge up 4 BPs for Perception 1 and get glasses or contacts with low light & Vision Enhancement III. It could save his life someday. Earbuds & Audio Enhancement III aren't a bad idea either.

If the character is not going to have any Attribute Boosting spells, the sustaining focus is kind of a waste. Being invisible all the time is good way to get accidentally geeked, be it by friendly fire or a speeding car (with such a low reaction and agility, getting out of harm's way will be a real challenge) Since he has bound spirits it would be better to have one of them sustain the spell (or better yet, just use its concealment power).

If he's going to conjure and bind spirits I would dump the Sustaining and Spell Foci for a conjuring and/or binding focus considering his skill is only 2. Now granted these are specific to spirit type so he should choose the one he would most likely summon (Air or Man). I would also drop the conjuring skill group (along with the Cracking Group) scrounge up 2 more BPs and take Summoning and Binding at rating 4 each. Believe me, Binding is a real bitch, I've seen a character go unconscious during a binding test & usually the first thing that happens is the spirit tuns on the Mage who attempted to bind it.

Gotta GBTW for now.

it apparently got ignored the first time, and i want to make sure Mr Unpronounceable isn't ignored again... counterspelling only uses your magic attribute when you're dispelling something that's already been cast. your magic will generally not be relevant wrt counterspelling...

@Adarael:

No. Power Foci add dice in general.

Spellcasting, Counterspelling, and Sustaining Foci, however, must be "attuned" to a specific spell category (i.e., Combat, Detection, Health, Illusion, or Manipulation). Thus, to have the ability to sustain any spell, you'd need 5 foci, for example.

Indeed, power foci are the exception, as instead of being a bonus to your skill, they grant a bonus to your magic rating instead.

hmm...and looking a bit closer at that makes me wonder if you did some of your other math right - I only get 90bp for active skills, 4 free knowledge skill points as yet unassigned, 30bp for the spells, 10bp for the spirits, 10bp for bonding foci, 25bp for the cost of the foci. Leaves 20bp unaccounted for, but that won't add up to 165K you have listed at the top - which vanishes into the ether at the end of chargen, anyway.

It's cool. It does make a difference though, which is why I felt the need to point it out to forestall any confusion. If Power Foci added directly to the Magic Attribute (which they basically did in previous editions), then the spellcaster could then cast spells at a higher Force. This is not the case in SR4.

If you actually want to tone it down, then switch some skill points to Assensing and other magical recon/investigation abilities, so that the GM can hand you mystical plot hooks.
If you want to pump it up a bit more, then get Summoning and Binding with a specialization in Air Spirits, and have spirits do Aid Spellcasting; and a fetish for full-force Illusion spells, because you've got lotsa drain on those Force 6 spells, no?

Trickster in BBB has +2 to Con skill, not to Air Spirits, and if you want to tone it down, then supplement his illusions with Con and some skills in the Stealth Group. Using Palm (Sleight of Hand) to apply a tranq patch is a nice trick, and probably even easier if you can illusion the patch into looking like you're handing them a datachip or credstick.

Side note - seems to me that a Force 2 power focus is a generally good munchkin move for starting mages - 10 BP for the nuyen, 2 BP to bind (rather than a high cost in Karma).
Another munchkin mage note: for a low-STR mage, taking a rank in Clubs, a specialty in Baton, and a Weapon Focus 2 shockrod is a decent investment. Ya don't get shock damage on astral targets, of course, but in mundane combat, 6E and +2 to hit is not bad compared to your options with, say, katana or machine pistols. Also, if you lose your gear, you can almost always improvise a club, although your damage at STR 1 or 2 will be laughable.

Hey, want to thank you all.

Some points: I used Blakkie's excell sheet so I do believe I spent all my points, however I could have copied the numbers down wrong.

Blakkie's sheet doesn't specify for the foci, and I'm an SR3 guru, thus the confusion on that, I do appreciate the correction.

I know bout the +2 con/air thing, at the time I was picking between Spider, Seduct, or Trickster. Gotta love Black Magic.

I seriously didn't know about the Counterspell being non-Magic attribute use, I just assumed since it was Linked to Magic. I'll probably tone it down then to about 3 and raise some of my other skills, maybe clubs like I suggested (I did buy a Staff anyhow).

To Kyoto Kid, I'll note this guy's a bench warmer, I GM in my group. Always. So he'll see little play time, but I assume my team mate (if it happened) might be able to take up the slack.

The Agony/Mass Agony would be my only real combat damage.

I did get a host of gear giving perception mods with the 50K left, so it pans out nicely.

Don't forget, if you wanted added NPC fun, have him create some custom illusions based on Agony/Mass Agony that not only cause "phantom" damage, but convince the person that's receiving said damage that their on fire, melting from acid, etc.

The rules for spell design are in Street Magic which, by your reference to the Black Magic tradition, you've already bought

Final build

I strongly suggest to switch any of the spells for Trid Phantasm. You can't really call yourself an illusionist without the ability to create the typical illusions we all love. (sterilize or agony because you got swarm and they are similiar)

Besides, trid phantasm can be a much better combat spell than you might think of. Otherwise I like the character.

Cheers,

Max