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TBRMInsanity
I was trying to think of a way to add different types of software licenses to SR4. I think this would add to the way most hackers would operate. I was thinking of different license classes for software:

Bought software (as per rules right now, you buy the software from a dealer)
Shareware (As per bought software but with a discount and limited rating of 1/2 the full version)
Freeware/Pirated Software (Free to obtain but sufferers from the lemon flaw)
Open Source software ("Free" to obtain (appropriate search checks) and can be modified later to increase the rating (new rating can't exceed programing skill))

Open Source software would also not work on all operating systems. Any of the AAA Corps would not allow open source software on their systems ("cuts into profit margin" and they can't hide their code from competitors) so no Navi OS for you.

Comments?
Blade
What follows is my own interpretation, there's no official fluff to back it up.

Personally, I think that in Shadowrun's 2070, megacorps have done everything they can to prevent Open Source software, to "fight piracy".
It's already what some of them are doing now (yes I know that some big companies support Open Source, but we're talking about Shadowrun's big bad megacorps here).

So you can have Open Source software, but they can't legally access content. Matrix protocols are proprietary, video, audio and simsens standards are proprietary and reverse engineering is illegal. Legally, the only thing Open Source software can do is deal with open source file formats, which aren't common outside hackers networks.

What I like in this interpretation is that it leads to a corp controlled Matrix, with small underground hacker communities fighting the system for freedom of information... very cyberpunk. And I think that it's pretty consistent with Shadowrun's universe.
hobgoblin
when SR diverged from real life timeline, they also killed of RMS and the rest of the open source evangelists...
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Blade)
So you can have Open Source software, but they can't legally access content. Matrix protocols are proprietary, video, audio and simsens standards are proprietary and reverse engineering is illegal. Legally, the only thing Open Source software can do is deal with open source file formats, which aren't common outside hackers networks.

What I like in this interpretation is that it leads to a corp controlled Matrix, with small underground hacker communities fighting the system for freedom of information... very cyberpunk. And I think that it's pretty consistent with Shadowrun's universe.

...I like it grinbig.gif

Fits right in with Matrix Specialist's character concept and background.
Blade
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
when SR diverged from real life timeline, they also killed of RMS and the rest of the open source evangelists...

Why kill them when they can make Open Source look bad in the eyes of the public? All you need is a good PR and one major collapse of the computer network.

They had two tries.
Eleazar
QUOTE (TBRMInsanity @ Oct 26 2007, 08:44 AM)
I was trying to think of a way to add different types of software licenses to SR4.  I think this would add to the way most hackers would operate.  I was thinking of different license classes for software:

Bought software (as per rules right now, you buy the software from a dealer)
Shareware (As per bought software but with a discount and limited rating of 1/2 the full version)
Freeware/Pirated Software (Free to obtain but sufferers from the lemon flaw)
Open Source software ("Free" to obtain (appropriate search checks) and can be modified later to increase the rating (new rating can't exceed programing skill))

Open Source software would also not work on all operating systems.  Any of the AAA Corps would not allow open source software on their systems ("cuts into profit margin" and they can't hide their code from competitors) so no Navi OS for you.

Comments?

In 2070 word/phrases like cross-platform and interoperability are going to be archaic and dead. Programming languages will be multi-platform by nature, like Java. You won't have to code specially for each operating system and there might even be standardized assembly language and machine code by then that is also multi-platform.

What is this lemon flaw you are talking about? There is plenty of freeware out there that is just as good, if not better than premium software. As far as pirated goes, it works exactly like the premium software except no license is needed. When updates come in the pirated software gets them too. There are exceptions, in which case the update is re-pirated, and then released. If you are going to have the hacker crack the update on a piece of software, you should make it much easier. The copyright protection and DRM methods stay the same throughout the whole life of a software product until a new program version is released. By program version I mean like going from Windows 98 to Windows 2000. Service packs and updates are not new program versions.

You seem to have a misconception about open-source software. Why would you not be able to increase the rating past programming skill? No other software works this way, and open source software is just like any other software someone would program. So, it would then also be able to increase it's rating indefinitely. Why would it require a search check to find open-source software? Do you require a search check to find premium software?

Shareware I just don't think is necessary. You can already get programs at half the rating. You just take the rating of the program you originally were going to buy and divide by two. You get a discount and 1/2 the rating. If you wanted something like shareware, you could implement a house rule where program ratings can be upgraded for half the cost, rather than having to buy a whole new program.

I just don't think these restrictions on Open-Source, Freeware, and Pirated software make sense. Does a stolen Ares Predator IV work any less effectively than a bought one. If a gun producer contracted by the government gives away a free gun comparable in every feature to a Ares Predator IV, is it suddenly worse because it wasn't bought. Finally, if an expert gunsmith releases the designs of a gun as open source, is anyone who uses those designs hindered when they improve the design because they didn't make the designs themselves. The answer is, of course not, that would be asinine. These rules don't make any sense.
Adam
QUOTE (Blade)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Oct 26 2007, 03:38 PM)
when SR diverged from real life timeline, they also killed of RMS and the rest of the open source evangelists...

Why kill them when they can make Open Source look bad in the eyes of the public? All you need is a good PR and one major collapse of the computer network.

What hobgoblin was trying to say was the Shadowrun timeline diverged from the real world before Open Source became a commonly known topic.
kzt
Formally it was 1983.

But the free distribution of ATT unix was in the early 70s, followed by BSD in 1977. BSD was the root of Sun and several other major software companies.

So I'll argue that claiming that nobody ever thought of it is just silly.
Adam
I'm not saying that Open Source or precursors to it didn't exist prior to Shadowrun's existence -- I'm saying that it wasn't commonly known [and in many ways, it still isn't] and therefore it likely wasn't considered when the original designers concocted the Matrix and Shadowrun computing technology.
Riley37
I gather that there are at least two kinds of disagreement here - a) how does open source software work IRL, b) how would it work if IRL trends continued to 2070, c) to what extent does that apply to 4th edition of Sixth World, d) to what extent shoud rules and houserules implement complete divergences from RL (eg orks and elves).

In real life as I understand it, there are people who produce open-source software that works as well as its commercial equivalent. And there are still lots of people who pay for MS Office. That's kinda broken; a game simulation of real life should emulate that broken-ness. smile.gif

In real life, knowing where to find reliable, trustworthy open-source software involves a bit of skill and knowlege which a lot of people don't have.

In SR4, my GM asked me for a Knowlege: Open Source Software roll. If I made the roll, my character could get a free program to do text-only language translation (different from the linguasofts which allow speaking in realtime).
Heck, if you can buy with BP a Quality that makes bioware cheaper in nuyen, then perhaps a Skill which allows the user to benefit from cheap/free software is viable.

I figure that if you buy Firewall from Renraku, it will have back doors to which Red Samurai have access; if you buy Firewall from open source providers, it might have back doors to which a *lot* of hackers have access, unless you have the Program skill to close them. Fair enough?
Kyoto Kid
...I'd go with that. Makes the Programming skill a bit more useful.
TBRMInsanity
I like everyone's input on the subject. I would tend to disagree that an Open Source Firewall would have a backdoor programed into it. By definition an Open Source program has its source code available to anyone that wants to modify it. But that also means any hacker who passes the appropriate check would quickly know where potential security holes would be and how to exploit them.

I think that the SR Open Source community would be just as vibrant as it is today, it just would be more "illegal". Which is why I had the search check to find a Open Source program. I can't think of anything more SR-like then the "stick it to the man" attitude that Free Software Hackers have today. The Open Source movement as a business model may be dead but it would be a lot harder to kill off the Free Software fanatics. As for the Matrix being proprietary, I think you may be wrong. The Matrix 2.0 has the same feel about it as the Internet. It would be a mixture of Open Standards and protocols that are shared between the corps, and proprietary security measures. I don't see Aztech and Ares paying NeoNet to use the Matrix, do you?

I really like the idea of Shareware being able to upgrade to a "full version" for cheaper. You could almost make rules that the company gave you the limited version (rating 2-3 max) for free (full of tracking software that the user doesn't know about) and then gets a discount to upgrade the software later (keeping the unknown "features" in place). That seems like a very Mega-corp thing to do.

As for Freeware/Pirated Software, I suggested the lemon trait (I'm not sure what the SR4 version would be but check the SR3 rules for a description) to show that a lot of freeware and pirated software are carriers for malware, spyware, and adware. I don't see this changing in the future. If someone doesn't want you to see their code, but they will give the program to you for free, you know they are trying to hide something. Pirated software could be treated like used software I guess, and the GM would have to make a secret roll to see if anything was wrong with the software. You may get a working program, you may get a Trogan Horse. The GM may also want to do a check per season so see if the latest patch didn't mess up your program (falls in line with the Mega-Corp's anti-piracy stance).
kzt
QUOTE (Adam)
therefore it likely wasn't considered when the original designers concocted the Matrix and Shadowrun computing technology.

Well that's true. The people who wrote cyberpunk books typically knew less about computers than the average 8 year old does now. And while I'd not be surprised at all if Bob Charrette knew more about actual combat than most of the current writers/developers, he'd never shown any real understanding of computers in anything he did previously.
kzt
QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)
By definition an Open Source program has its source code available to anyone that wants to modify it. But that also means any hacker who passes the appropriate check would quickly know where potential security holes would be and how to exploit them.

There is a certain amount of risk present.

For one, lots of projects are dependent on other projects that use other projects. The GD exploit from a few years ago is an example.

Then there have been several times that people have hacked into the distribution system and installed backdoors in linux and other distros. I think there was a huge uproar about a hack of the open SSH source tree a few years ago.

The other is that if were given the roughly billion lines of C code that makes up windows 2003, how long would it take you to find the bugs?
TBRMInsanity
QUOTE (kzt)
QUOTE (TBRMInsanity @ Oct 26 2007, 08:28 PM)
By definition an Open Source program has its source code available to anyone that wants to modify it.  But that also means any hacker who passes the appropriate check would quickly know where potential security holes would be and how to exploit them.

There is a certain amount of risk present.

For one, lots of projects are dependent on other projects that use other projects. The GD exploit from a few years ago is an example.

Then there have been several times that people have hacked into the distribution system and installed backdoors in linux and other distros. I think there was a huge uproar about a hack of the open SSH source tree a few years ago.

The other is that if were given the roughly billion lines of C code that makes up windows 2003, how long would it take you to find the bugs?

With SR bots probably not that long. But I didn't mean for this thread to become a discussion on what is better (Open Source vs Proprietary), I meant it to be a discussion on how to implement different types of software into the SR4 game. I thought that it would add to the "us vs the man" feel of the game.
Gelare
A few thoughts about who owns the Matrix:

The Matrix is a totally interwoven network, with every node shuffling other peoples' signals around. So the first guess as to who owns the Matrix is whoever owns the programs that keep the infrastructure going. Of course, I'm betting there are multiple versions of said program, probably as many versions as there are operating systems, so that doesn't get us anywhere.

Then we notice that the Matrix is wireless. And do you know who, in the United States, owns the air? Not nobody. The federal government does, which is why they (the Federal Communications Commission) hold auctions to sell licenses to companies, allowing those companies to broadcast their wireless stuff over the airwaves. So you could say that governments own the Matrix. But then Shiawise happened.

Since the megacorps are like countries unto themselves, and their soil is their own, they would own the Matrix, but only on their territory. That really doesn't work simply by virtue of the way the Matrix is set up. It could have worked if the Matrix were a more rigid system, but not with this integrated mesh we have in SR4. So the megacorps don't own the Matrix, and if they don't, there's no reason to think governments do, especially since the Matrix is worldwide.

This, interestingly enough, leaves us approximately where we are today - a very loosely regulated internet. What will happen to the internet in the next ten years is, of course, anybody's guess, but ignoring our own timeline and bearing in mind SR's, I'm pretty sure no one owns the Matrix. Of course, this doesn't mean that you can jack in and meet up with all your eco-terrorist buddies for a good round of planning the megacorps' demise, because what the megacorps do have is cyberassassins who will stab you in the face. And since open source programs take away from the megacorps' bottom line, I don't believe the face-stabbers will be very friendly toward it.
Riley37
The story of "Cuckoo's Egg" hinges on a bug in gnu emacs which gave a German hacker (working for the KGB) access to Lawrence Berkeley Labs and various US military base computers. A while ago, and not a deliberate back door by GNU (afaik), but a security hole in an open source program with noteworthy consequences, when combined with poor security practices by US Armed Forces.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cuckoo's_Egg_(book)

I dunno that the Sixth World equivalents of Richard Stallman are spending much time working on, say, Target LMG autosofts, but if a PC can crack the copy protection to run it on multiple drones, then presumably others can do so and sell the result on the black market. But again, there's a question of how well you trust the person you're buying from.

The BBB doesn't have the bandwidth to provide price guidelines for package deals, but I bet that Cyberdyne does offer a package for installing Target LMG 4 on up to six drones, at less than six times the cost of a single-installation license.

Incidentally, back in 1999, I heard, and took seriously, the idea that many companies were scrambling to get Y2K patches, and some of them dealing with fly-by-night companies without established histories, and that perhaps several of those programmers were building back doors into those patches. I have not, since then, heard anything about a wave of electronic theft resulting from such theoretical back doors in Y2K patches.

Anyways, the thread does raise good questions. The BBB meets the needs of most gamers by providing standard prices based on Rating, regardless of provider, but GMs who want to go a bit further can apply more shades of grey.
kzt
QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)
With SR bots probably not that long. But I didn't mean for this thread to become a discussion on what is better (Open Source vs Proprietary), I meant it to be a discussion on how to implement different types of software into the SR4 game. I thought that it would add to the "us vs the man" feel of the game.

You have to realize that anyone writing the code is probably using all the latest tools to find bugs. Heck, places like MS write tools and buy companies that have cool tools to get them to do what they want. And GNU typically has very similar tools that are a lot less user friendly (more like guru friendly).

So your agents searching through anyones (open source or not) source trees are, at best the, same tools they used to look for bugs before they released the code. Hence you are not going to find anything that they don't already know about unless you are writing your own agents based on your personal incredibly high computer active and knowledge skills. (Admittedly, this assumes the programmers care enough to look, which isn't always true. "They are not bugs, they are undocumented features").

Personally I suspect that very few people will be commercially selling tools that has a primary purpose of breaking into other people's computers. The liability is pretty large. They will exist, but the commercial ones will be extremely closely held, expensive and sold only to "legitimate organizations", just like many commercially available computer forensics tools. Do you, Jack Hacker, want to show up a the training session full of cops and hope that nobody sees through your fake ID?

The ones most people use will be open source, similar to metasploit. Or specialized ones developed by a group of hackers for internal use but that are based on freeware tools.
TBRMInsanity
Again can we get back to my main question about how would you implement rules for different licensed software. I'm sure everyone has an opinion on what FLOSS looks like in the future but that is not what I'm looking for.
Cthulhudreams
Bringing the conventional software licensing models to shadowrun doesn't really work. The problem with 'enterprise' software is not getting it working, it's getting what you want it to do working and that SI task has lots of scope.

For personal computing (and shadowrun!) is thats not really relevant because you want to use canned generic applications with a minimum of custom tailoring.

You could probably make the SR concept of software work by rationalisigng that the 'cost' of software is not in the sourcecode, it's blending all the goodies so it works with *your brain*

And thats what a hacker is doing when he breaks the copy protection - he's beating the system then custom tailoring it for the new platform.

Then hand out rating one programs free with cornflakes - they can be FOSS or off the shelf stuff or whatever. When a hacker 'buys' a rating 5 exploit program he gets the open tools and then blends it together - and gets some hackers from a 'white hat' security company and a consulting neurologist who support open source tools to do it for him/help, by getting the neural triggers down just so and optimising everything for him personally.

When the Street sammie buys a rating 2-3 agent, he gets a team of outsourced contractors from india who tailor (read: half ass) their closed source software to his needs and BRAINZ.

So basically I wouldn't do anything to the model laid out in the book.

If you're not going to do that, either you have to have the RIAA cyberninjas kick down the door when someone pirates code, or all software is free because someone has cracked a program and then uploaded it the shadow community of your choice. Sure someone might have done the dodgy, but in the forums as protrayed in the books, they are tightly managed with good anti spam protection etc, soevery reason to expect that 'reputable' posters would post quality programs.
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