Since you may combine Echolocation and Hearing Enhancement bioware, for the sake of balance between earware and eyeware, I would really wish to allow combining Cat's Eyes and Troll's Eyes bioware, too (let's say the technological state of the art is slighty more advanced than canon and has already cracked the problem of combining ork/elven/feline and dwarf/reptile/troll genes in the same vat-grown organ). Should the Essence Cost, Availability, and Price stack, too, or there should be some kind of bulk discount ?

Unlike cybereyes, which have a certain amount of capacity, bioware modifications are done directly to your eyes. It is comparable to getting low-light and thermographic as eye modifications instead of buying them as cybereye features - you would pay the Essense cost for both modifications.

So no, I wouldn't offer any discounts or reduced Essense costs. You're already doing your players a favor by letting them combine the two modifications as it is.

Gotta go with Glyph in this one. In fact, I might multiply the essence cost by 1.2 or something. I mean really, replacing your normal eyes with troll/cat hybrid eyes is a hell of alot weirder than just replacing them with troll eyes.

Chris

Because the way I understand it is the hearing things are augments whereas the Troll's Eyes/Cat's Eyes are actually full eyes. So you would have to actually splice the genes in to grow a Cat/Troll eye hybrid and then replace your real eyes with it.

Chris

HE and EL modify different parts - CE and TE modify the same... so they are incompatible.

But muscle toner and muscle augmentation both modify the same thing, and I don't think anyone disputes they stack. Things that *don't* stack or work together are explictly marked as such, so as troll's eyes and cats' eyes have no such marking, it seems reasonable to let it roll.

I mean heck, 'cats eyes' enhancement doesn;t have to be an actual eye, maybe they just add a bunch more rods and/or cones as required. Maybe they do the same for trolls eyes. Who knows? Who cares.

I've always assumed the majority of bioware was vat-grown flesh crafted onto the existing flesh and that for the most part the only two vat-grown full organs were the cloned replacements with the exception of the eyes. I mean, hell, I could easily be wrong, but from what I know of human anatomy and the way it works, most of the effects wanted by bioware would be just as easy to get- theoretically obviously- with a change in the existing structure instead of a complete replacement.

Chris

EDIT:And yes, if it was in the appropriate power game and I was feeling nice I would allow someone to add Essence and nuyen together, take the higher of the two availabilities + half the other availability, and multiply the essence and nuyen costs by something between 1.2 and 1.5 to represent how fucked up Troll/Cat eyes are when compared to your idealized spirit self.

Gotta agree with the above reasoning, ear mod's are different parts and eye mod is more exclusive and would'nt allow more then one.

To me it seem ludicrous in a world with technology at such sky high limits to put an arbitrary limitation on such bioware.

I would see such technology creating a set of bioware that incorporates Troll Eyes and Cats Eyes. Ie designed that was from the beginning.

In a world where contact lenses can have both features and more, bioware can easily replicate both in a set of eyes.

WMS

Did everyone miss the last sentence under the Troll's Eye's Description? "This implant is incompatible with cybereyes or cat's eyes."

Also, you can instead, get cyberware eye enhancements without the cybereye replacement. Thermal vision is 0.1 essence for 1k nuyen. Lowlight is 0.1 essence for 1k nuyen as well. Compared to the bioware cats eyes which is 0.1 essence and 7.5k nuyen for lowlight (and your eyes get that creepy slit effect), or trolls eyes at 0.1 essence and 8k nuyen, there is NO reason to get the bioware. You can combine cybereye retinal enhancements, and if you're getting more than 2 mods, you can just get cybereyes (if you want for essence efficiency) and pack 'em full. The bioware eyes are worthless.

Yeah, I totally agree that cutting someones normal eyes out and replaceing them with vat eyes is more classy than a small retinal modification. Yep!

Some critters, like dragons, have.

@Stahlseele
Your impression is correct, all bioware is vat grown then implanted. If that means birth organs/eyes etc are removed and the bioware ones installed that is what happens.

WMS

of course that means that a full bioed out character through gene-tech is just not possible because of game balance . . if people know how to grow such stuff, then why should they now know how to grow it inside a growing body? theoretically it should be possible to have an in vitro human with the perfect gene crafted body . . allready muscle aug and toner and other stuff while growing up . . the stuff growing with him inside of him . . and why stop there . . basically it should be possible to make a human with synaptic thingie and stuffings without ever having to cut him open . .

..while some other Bioware is expressively a treatment.

OK Visual Acuity would translate as Vision Enhancement for SR4. ie a greater clarity of vision.

WMS

The real world reason, i believe, for muscle toner and muscle augmentation being stackable is that muscles aren't as simple as a lot of people think, if i recall correctly muscles tend to come in (at least) two different forms, one for strength and useage over a long period (say someone's leg muscles whilst jogging or someone lifting and carrying heavy boxes) and one for quick movements over a short time (punching someone and sprinting would use these type of muscles).

That's the simplest way of putting it, i'm sure someone who has a degree in sports science could give us a more factual analysis.

So yes, Muscle Aug/Toner are perfectly acceptable to stack. In SR Cats Eyes and Trolls Eyes are two seperate vat grown products that replace the Mk1 Human Eye. So, nope they aren't capable of being installed at the same time (at least, not without drilling a couple of extra holes in ones head).

However Wanderer isn't asking us if it's against cannon to combine the two, he just wanted advice on house rulling that possibility. If that's what you want pal, then fair 'nuff, it's your game. I think the previously stated stacking of costs and availability etc.. are perfectly acceptable as a work around for this.

Personally, if it were me, i'd make the PC deal with getting the mods done using Genetherapy or Transgenics at the appropriate costs - simply for wanting such bespoke 'ware. But that's got a lot to do with the fact that i like the disparity between cyberware and bioware - it keeps things interesting and stops bioware being just squishier and more costly versions of cyberware.

If a corp did bring out a hybrid troll/cat eyes then that is, as i see it, a great plan for a run for some characters to steal the research for them and use the whole idea as an adventure for my pcs.

But, hey, that's my tuppeny bit in the pot.