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Wanderer
Since you may combine Echolocation and Hearing Enhancement bioware, for the sake of balance between earware and eyeware, I would really wish to allow combining Cat's Eyes and Troll's Eyes bioware, too (let's say the technological state of the art is slighty more advanced than canon and has already cracked the problem of combining ork/elven/feline and dwarf/reptile/troll genes in the same vat-grown organ). Should the Essence Cost, Availability, and Price stack, too, or there should be some kind of bulk discount ?
Glyph
Unlike cybereyes, which have a certain amount of capacity, bioware modifications are done directly to your eyes. It is comparable to getting low-light and thermographic as eye modifications instead of buying them as cybereye features - you would pay the Essense cost for both modifications.

So no, I wouldn't offer any discounts or reduced Essense costs. You're already doing your players a favor by letting them combine the two modifications as it is.
DTFarstar
Gotta go with Glyph in this one. In fact, I might multiply the essence cost by 1.2 or something. I mean really, replacing your normal eyes with troll/cat hybrid eyes is a hell of alot weirder than just replacing them with troll eyes.

Chris
Wanderer
QUOTE (Glyph)
Unlike cybereyes, which have a certain amount of capacity, bioware modifications are done directly to your eyes. It is comparable to getting low-light and thermographic as eye modifications instead of buying them as cybereye features - you would pay the Essense cost for both modifications.

So no, I wouldn't offer any discounts or reduced Essense costs. You're already doing your players a favor by letting them combine the two modifications as it is.

I do not regard it as a favor but as erasing the irrationality of allowing to stack biological ear modifications but not eye ones. It looks annoyingly arbitrary to me.
Wanderer
QUOTE (DTFarstar)
Gotta go with Glyph in this one. In fact, I might multiply the essence cost by 1.2 or something. I mean really, replacing your normal eyes with troll/cat hybrid eyes is a hell of alot weirder than just replacing them with troll eyes.

Chris

Why not just adding the Essence Costs of Cat's Eyes and Troll's Eyes, then ? I do not understand your method. It's not not any weirder than combining Echolocation, Vocal Range Enhancer, and Hearing Enhancement.
DTFarstar
Because the way I understand it is the hearing things are augments whereas the Troll's Eyes/Cat's Eyes are actually full eyes. So you would have to actually splice the genes in to grow a Cat/Troll eye hybrid and then replace your real eyes with it.

Chris
Rotbart van Dainig
HE and EL modify different parts - CE and TE modify the same... so they are incompatible.
Wanderer
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
HE and EL modify different parts - CE and TE modify the same... so they are incompatible.

HE and EL both modify the hearing component of the ear. How can you state they modify different parts ? eek.gif

Anyway, I want CE and TE to be compatible. Doing otherwise creates an unbalance between different kinds of senseware which I find rather annoying. If this means stating that SOTA has slightly advanced so that combining cat and troll genes in the same vat-grown organ is manageable, so be it. It will probably be so in SR 5th ed. ed or somesuch, anyway.
Cthulhudreams
But muscle toner and muscle augmentation both modify the same thing, and I don't think anyone disputes they stack. Things that *don't* stack or work together are explictly marked as such, so as troll's eyes and cats' eyes have no such marking, it seems reasonable to let it roll.

I mean heck, 'cats eyes' enhancement doesn;t have to be an actual eye, maybe they just add a bunch more rods and/or cones as required. Maybe they do the same for trolls eyes. Who knows? Who cares.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Wanderer)
HE and EL both modify the hearing component of the ear.

No.

HE modifies the ear - EL modifies the brain. (And is, as Synner agreed, incorrectly classed as Basic Bioware... it's actually Cultured Bioware.)

QUOTE (Wanderer)
Anyway, I want CE and TE to be compatible.

Well, the RAW explicitly doesn't want that to be: "Due to the difficulty of the treatment, it is not possible to get ‚Äúcombo‚Ä? eyes that combine several of the bio-vision enhancements."

If you want to houserule it, add up costs.
Wanderer
QUOTE (DTFarstar @ Oct 27 2007, 08:43 AM)
Because the way I understand it is the hearing things are augments whereas the Troll's Eyes/Cat's Eyes are actually full eyes. So you would have to actually splice the genes in to grow a Cat/Troll eye hybrid and then replace your real eyes with it.

Chris

Well, as a general rule bioware works by replacing the natural organs with vat-grown ones (even if you can make the fluff assumption that its growth was instead caused in vivo by genetic treatments), and I'm rather dubious you could rework human hearing organs this way without a complete rearrangement in a way that would work for ears but not for eyes. Augment may work fine with cybernetic earware, but biological hearing is fully integrated just in the same way as sight.

Anyway, I've not yet understood how you would deal with the Essence Cost of hybrid CE/TE eyes. You suggested multiplying by 1.2. Do you mean 0.1 x 1.2 = 0.12 or (0.1 + 0.1) x 1.2 = 0.24 ??
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams)
But muscle toner and muscle augmentation both modify the same thing[...]

In Shadowtech, it was a single implant. The split occured in SR3 for arcane reasons.
bibliophile20
QUOTE (Wanderer)
Anyway, I've not yet understood how you would deal with the Essence Cost of hybrid CE/TE eyes. You suggested multiplying by 1.2. Do you mean 0.1 x 1.2 = 0.12 or (0.1 + 0.1) x 1.2 = 0.24 ??

I think he means "increase the essence cost by 120%"
Wanderer
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (Wanderer)
HE and EL both modify the hearing component of the ear.

No.

HE modifies the ear - EL modifies the brain. (And is, as Synner agreed, incorrectly classed as Basic Bioware... it's actually Cultured Bioware.)

QUOTE (Wanderer)
Anyway, I want CE and TE to be compatible.

Well, the RAW explicitly doesn't want that to be: "Due to the difficulty of the treatment, it is not possible to get ‚Äúcombo‚Ä? eyes that combine several of the bio-vision enhancements."

If you want to houserule it, add up costs.

The difficulties of treatment the RAW speaks about are in all likelihood only a very temporary technical problem, which in a few years at the very most will be cracked. The story of bioware and geneware in the SR setting gives ample proof of that. They managed to find a way to repair Essence loss and make cybermancy sustainable medium-term. In comparison, the difficulty of putting two different genemods in the same vat-grown eyes is insignificant. Since the canon RAW produces unbalanced niches between cybernetic and biological eyeware and earware, I do not care at all for that particular rule, even more so since by the time the next edition of the 'ware book comes around at the very most, it will be repealed.

Adding up costs ? Seems sensible. smile.gif
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Wanderer)
The difficulties of treatment the RAW speaks about are in all likelihood only a very temporary technical problem, which in a few years at the very most will be cracked.

There are few things that aren't. wink.gif

QUOTE (Wanderer)
Adding up costs ? Seems sensible.

Essence, Nuyen and Availability.
DTFarstar
I've always assumed the majority of bioware was vat-grown flesh crafted onto the existing flesh and that for the most part the only two vat-grown full organs were the cloned replacements with the exception of the eyes. I mean, hell, I could easily be wrong, but from what I know of human anatomy and the way it works, most of the effects wanted by bioware would be just as easy to get- theoretically obviously- with a change in the existing structure instead of a complete replacement.

Chris

EDIT:And yes, if it was in the appropriate power game and I was feeling nice I would allow someone to add Essence and nuyen together, take the higher of the two availabilities + half the other availability, and multiply the essence and nuyen costs by something between 1.2 and 1.5 to represent how fucked up Troll/Cat eyes are when compared to your idealized spirit self.
Prime Mover
Gotta agree with the above reasoning, ear mod's are different parts and eye mod is more exclusive and would'nt allow more then one.
Wanderer
QUOTE (Prime Mover)
Gotta agree with the above reasoning, ear mod's are different parts and eye mod is more exclusive and would'nt allow more then one.

I utterly fail to see the reason why muscles can easily combine two radically different augmentation types in the same build, while eyes couldn't.
Wanderer
QUOTE (DTFarstar @ Oct 27 2007, 04:12 PM)

EDIT:And yes, if it was in the appropriate power game and I was feeling nice I would allow someone to add Essence and nuyen together, take the higher of the two availabilities + half the other availability, and multiply the essence and nuyen costs by something between 1.2 and 1.5 to represent how fucked up Troll/Cat eyes are when compared to your idealized spirit self.

Piower game ? About combining bioware low-light and thermal ? Aren't you just a bit too exaggerated ? wink.gif Anyway, yes, my gaming preferences lean rather toward what you could define as "high-power" (500+ pts. as starting default, waiving the 35-pts cap for Qualities and Flaws), so I guess your requirement is satisified. cool.gif

I still utterly fail to see why you can easily combine muscle toner and augmentation by simply adding Essence Costs together, while you should add an extra multiplier for Essence Costs on top of adding the EC of CE and TE. It simply doesn't make sense. Doing it for nuyen costs, I can accept, since you are pushing the SOTA standard beyond the assumptions of the RAW, flawed as they may be.
WearzManySkins
To me it seem ludicrous in a world with technology at such sky high limits to put an arbitrary limitation on such bioware.

I would see such technology creating a set of bioware that incorporates Troll Eyes and Cats Eyes. Ie designed that was from the beginning.

In a world where contact lenses can have both features and more, bioware can easily replicate both in a set of eyes.

WMS
Tarantula
Did everyone miss the last sentence under the Troll's Eye's Description? "This implant is incompatible with cybereyes or cat's eyes."

Also, you can instead, get cyberware eye enhancements without the cybereye replacement. Thermal vision is 0.1 essence for 1k nuyen. Lowlight is 0.1 essence for 1k nuyen as well. Compared to the bioware cats eyes which is 0.1 essence and 7.5k nuyen for lowlight (and your eyes get that creepy slit effect), or trolls eyes at 0.1 essence and 8k nuyen, there is NO reason to get the bioware. You can combine cybereye retinal enhancements, and if you're getting more than 2 mods, you can just get cybereyes (if you want for essence efficiency) and pack 'em full. The bioware eyes are worthless.
Wanderer
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Did everyone miss the last sentence under the Troll's Eye's Description? "This implant is incompatible with cybereyes or cat's eyes."

Also, you can instead, get cyberware eye enhancements without the cybereye replacement. Thermal vision is 0.1 essence for 1k nuyen. Lowlight is 0.1 essence for 1k nuyen as well. Compared to the bioware cats eyes which is 0.1 essence and 7.5k nuyen for lowlight (and your eyes get that creepy slit effect), or trolls eyes at 0.1 essence and 8k nuyen, there is NO reason to get the bioware. You can combine cybereye retinal enhancements, and if you're getting more than 2 mods, you can just get cybereyes (if you want for essence efficiency) and pack 'em full. The bioware eyes are worthless.

Nobody missed that sentence. We are utterly houseruling it away because we don't find it justified and we don't like the in-game effects, as one would know if they had cared to make a cursory read of the thread sarcastic.gif The RAW rule is IMNSHO quite stupid and gets disregarded, pure and simple. I thought I had been sufficiently eloquent on this, upthread, sigh.

We know that cyber senseware is still unbeatable for completeness (there are several enhancements bio is still unable to provide) and cheapness. However, money isn't everything. Bioware is utterly unconspicous (a -6 Essence all-bio combat monster is utterly undistinguishable from a meekly sarariman couch potato to a mundane), is self-repairing, can be created with genetweaking without cutting people open, and is well, more classy. cool.gif
Tarantula
Yeah, I totally agree that cutting someones normal eyes out and replaceing them with vat eyes is more classy than a small retinal modification. Yep! wink.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Wanderer)
Nobody missed that sentence. We are utterly houseruling it away because we don't find it justified and we don't like the in-game effects ...

Who's we?

Is there any example of a creature in nature (in Shadowrun) that has both low light and thermographic vision?
Rotbart van Dainig
Some critters, like dragons, have.
Stahlseele
QUOTE
without cutting people open

and here i was under the impression, that mose bioware was grown in vats and had to be implanted into your body then O.o
WearzManySkins
@Stahlseele
Your impression is correct, all bioware is vat grown then implanted. If that means birth organs/eyes etc are removed and the bioware ones installed that is what happens.

WMS
Stahlseele
of course that means that a full bioed out character through gene-tech is just not possible because of game balance . . if people know how to grow such stuff, then why should they now know how to grow it inside a growing body? theoretically it should be possible to have an in vitro human with the perfect gene crafted body . . allready muscle aug and toner and other stuff while growing up . . the stuff growing with him inside of him . . and why stop there . . basically it should be possible to make a human with synaptic thingie and stuffings without ever having to cut him open . .
Fortune
QUOTE
@Stahlseele
Your impression is correct, all bioware is vat grown then implanted. If that means birth organs/eyes etc are removed and the bioware ones installed that is what happens.


While that is true, Wanderer was referring to the fact that some Bioware-like advantages can be gained through Gene Therapy.
Rotbart van Dainig
..while some other Bioware is expressively a treatment.
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE
@Stahlseele
Your impression is correct, all bioware is vat grown then implanted. If that means birth organs/eyes etc are removed and the bioware ones installed that is what happens.


While that is true, Wanderer was referring to the fact that some Bioware-like advantages can be gained through Gene Therapy.

@Fortune
rotfl.gif Do we really want to go there again?

Yes Cats and Troll eyes can be done with in Genetic treatment/enhancements. Those are two fairly clear examples of having such, but there are a lot more that are less clear. biggrin.gif

Dragons are listed with Low Light Vision, and Thermographic Vision, good luck on getting the DNA from one of them to get your geneware treatment done. biggrin.gif

Wendigos are listed with Low Light Vision and Visual Acuity? Now what exactly does Visual Acuity mean? Vision Magnification and or Vision Enhancement?

Eagles and most birds of prey would have Vision Magnification, some like Owls would also have Low Light Vision. Now whether or not such birds of prey would have Vision Enhancement...... is up for debate I guess.

WMS
WearzManySkins
OK Visual Acuity would translate as Vision Enhancement for SR4. ie a greater clarity of vision.

WMS
Mr. Croup
The real world reason, i believe, for muscle toner and muscle augmentation being stackable is that muscles aren't as simple as a lot of people think, if i recall correctly muscles tend to come in (at least) two different forms, one for strength and useage over a long period (say someone's leg muscles whilst jogging or someone lifting and carrying heavy boxes) and one for quick movements over a short time (punching someone and sprinting would use these type of muscles).

That's the simplest way of putting it, i'm sure someone who has a degree in sports science could give us a more factual analysis.

So yes, Muscle Aug/Toner are perfectly acceptable to stack. In SR Cats Eyes and Trolls Eyes are two seperate vat grown products that replace the Mk1 Human Eye. So, nope they aren't capable of being installed at the same time (at least, not without drilling a couple of extra holes in ones head).

However Wanderer isn't asking us if it's against cannon to combine the two, he just wanted advice on house rulling that possibility. If that's what you want pal, then fair 'nuff, it's your game. I think the previously stated stacking of costs and availability etc.. are perfectly acceptable as a work around for this.

Personally, if it were me, i'd make the PC deal with getting the mods done using Genetherapy or Transgenics at the appropriate costs - simply for wanting such bespoke 'ware. But that's got a lot to do with the fact that i like the disparity between cyberware and bioware - it keeps things interesting and stops bioware being just squishier and more costly versions of cyberware.

If a corp did bring out a hybrid troll/cat eyes then that is, as i see it, a great plan for a run for some characters to steal the research for them and use the whole idea as an adventure for my pcs.

But, hey, that's my tuppeny bit in the pot.
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