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Particle_Beam
One point that somehow irks me is that somehow, there are some critters like Shadow Spirits who somehow can steal Karma. But frankly, how do you explain that ingame? Stealing Karma in SR is like stealing levels in D&D. It's absolutely metagame, and only meant to punish players, but not characters.
Also, how does one Shadow Spirit determine if his target got any Karma at all?
And furthermore, we all know that Energy Drain causes other problems, in regard to Blood Spirits, who would in less than a day become almighty Blood-Galactus, because of how the rules work and what Energy Drain does...

Now, if Energy Drain gets replaced with Essence Drain, perhaps this might work better. You could say that Shadow Spirits would turn drained Essence into their own Karma, and the rules of Essence Drain already has the limitations about not being able to get more Essence than your natural Essence rating.

Somehow, Energy Drain simply is either absolutely rubbish, or too powerful.

What are your ideas, where do you agree, what do you think should be improved and so on?
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Particle_Beam)
One point that somehow irks me is that somehow, there are some critters like Shadow Spirits who somehow can steal Karma. But frankly, how do you explain that ingame? Stealing Karma in SR is like stealing levels in D&D. It's absolutely metagame, and only meant to punish players, but not characters.
Also, how does one Shadow Spirit determine if his target got any Karma at all?
And furthermore, we all know that Energy Drain causes other problems, in regard to Blood Spirits, who would in less than a day become almighty Blood-Galactus, because of how the rules work and what Energy Drain does...

Now, if Energy Drain gets replaced with Essence Drain, perhaps this might work better. You could say that Shadow Spirits would turn drained Essence into their own Karma, and the rules of Essence Drain already has the limitations about not being able to get more Essence than your natural Essence rating.

Somehow, Energy Drain simply is either absolutely rubbish, or too powerful.

What are your ideas, where do you agree, what do you think should be improved and so on?

Karma is a very real commodity. It can be bought, sold, traded, stolen, or used to build things. Given the Free Spirit power called Wealth, it is the only raw commodity that has any value to spirits.
Particle_Beam
Explain to me how it is real, and how a spirit knows that the other person has avaiable Karma at all? It's a meta-game ressource, like XP in D&D, nothing more...
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Particle_Beam)
Explain to me how it is real, and how a spirit knows that the other person has avaiable Karma at all? It's a meta-game ressource, like XP in D&D, nothing more...

Karma is the fundamental building block of SR metaphysics. Without it, persistent magical constructs cannot exist. It can be bought, sold, or traded. It can be given freely or it can by taken by force. It can be fashioned into any number of magical constructs or used to improve one's own form.

It is as real as a gold coin and more real than a nuyen.

Unfortunatly, there is no way for a spirit to know is a person has karma without attempting a karma drain or a transfer ritual.
FrankTrollman
I don't agree with all of your arguments, but your main point stands. Yes, Energy Drain should just go away and be replaced with Essence Drain. Energy Drain is broken in like a million ways and Essence Drain is not.

-Frank
Glyph
It should be a purely metagame concept, but unfortunately Hyzmarca is correct. Karma in the game is also one of the forms of life energy desired by spirits. I would still rather lose Karma than lose Essense, though. A few points of Karma can be replaced, but a few points of Essense, and you might as well roll up a new character.
Particle_Beam
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Karma is the fundamental building block of SR metaphysics. Without it, persistent magical constructs cannot exist. It can be bought, sold, or traded. It can be given freely or it can by taken by force. It can be fashioned into any number of magical constructs or used to improve one's own form.

It is as real as a gold coin and more real than a nuyen.

Unfortunatly, there is no way for a spirit to know is a person has karma without attempting a karma drain or a transfer ritual.

Which is another problem with Karma in specific. How do you really explain it, and how do you see it? Essence can be measured. Karma, on the other hand, is purely meta-game.

And yay, at least one person who agrees with me about doing away with Energy Drain. smile.gif
DTFarstar
I wouldn't mind losing Energy Drain, or at least giving it a serious overhaul, but not for the same reasons you espouse. I have no problem with Karma being an immeasurable quantity that is still a commodity. I actually kind of like the fact that free spirits are static beings and they need to siphon off a little bit of metahuman creativity to grow themselves in any way. It takes them down a peg and makes it make a little more sense as to why they don't just kill all of us. I mean, let's face it humanity as a whole is an annoying little universal dung pile that most everything else wishes would vanish. If we weren't useful in some way, I'm sure they would do it.
Wounded Ronin
Particle Beam, I don't know how sr4 works, but in SR3 a character could choose to give a specific amount of karma to a spirit. It was not metagame. It existed and could be given away in discrete amounts as part of a conscious in-character decision.
kzt
If it's not a metagame concept, how do you measure it in character? What's it measured in? What does raw karma look like?
Particle_Beam
I would consider it to be totally abstract, like hitpoints in D&D. Karma is probably like a wild mixture of good favour by the gods, experience, memory, time and effort, faith, money substitue and so on.
When used for spending it on raising skills and attributes, Karma would represent your time and your will that you are putting into learning or enhancing your body.
If you're creating a magical do-hickey, it might be some kind of magical juice that you're putting into, although it also might be just putting time and effort into the thing and taking good care of it.
When you get specific positive qualities (or to be more precise, you as the player decide that your character is getting the positive quality, with the approval of the GM of course), like for example Wll to Live, Spirit Affinity, Photographic Memory, and other rather hard-to-clue-down things, it's simply a trait that came up that was somehow always there, but never played a role in the life of the player character before. Of course, once again, you could argue that you could learn such things, given enough time and with dedication.
It does get problematic if we're talking about the creation of an Ally Spirit. Of course, it might be some part of your inner self, your conscience, your memory, your devotion to some higher power...

So, in the end, Karma would be time and dedication for your character. But you as the player, you somehow can get it for pure metagame reasons, like making the plot go on and/or making everybody having a good time and a good laugh at the table, or even something totally absurd like "good roleplaying"... So, totally meta-game, and totally abstract.

Which brings to the problem of how a spirit is going to determine that your character has non-spent Karma, and how it can steal it from you, with the power of Energy Drain, which should be replaced anyway with Essence Drain for other benefits (just simply so that the almighty Blood-Galactus can not come into fruitition would be a good idea). Also, it might streamline the rules, actually, if there's only one kind of terrible life-leaching power that everybody's afraid of.
Jaid
QUOTE (kzt)
If it's not a metagame concept, how do you measure it in character? What's it measured in? What does raw karma look like?

it need not be visible, or even detectable using current technologies.

atoms and molecules existed long before we had instruments capable of proving their existence. the fact that they couldn't weigh an atom 5,000 years ago doesn't mean it didn't have weight, nor that it was unweighable.
kzt
QUOTE (Jaid)
atoms and molecules existed long before we had instruments capable of proving their existence. the fact that they couldn't weigh an atom 5,000 years ago doesn't mean it didn't have weight, nor that it was unweighable.

Would you consider it logical for a game set in ancient Greece or Rome to require characters to intelligently discuss the specific heat, neutron cross section and molecular weight of objects?
Wounded Ronin
Characters in medieval morality plays or operas didn't need to know the atomic weight of their soul to sell it to a demon. Likewise a character may not be able to describe karma very well but he can feel (or consent to) having a portion of it being ripped away from him.
Big D
Yes, but they operated under the assumption that they had one (1) soul to sell.

With karma... it's a lot harder. And yeah, it's basically XP.

The problem is, SR has made a habit of bringing XP from a metagame concept into an IC phenomenon. My understanding is that karma has been referenced directly in a number of novels, and that some of them have featured things such as purchasing favors from free spirits with karma. Thus, it's not something that you can just wish away.

And yes, it is broken. Give me a mage with a level of initiation and a few years to work with, and I'll have him stronger than Harlequin, with a small army of Allies by his side. All it takes is a quest to gain a F1 succubus and a good negotiation (or repeated bindings) roll.

If everybody earns XP, and you can buy, sell, and steal it, there will always be a way to "cheat" your way through the game. And you don't even have to permanently hurt anybody.

Essence Drain--which can't be used to permanently increase your powers, much less create Allies--is another matter. Plus, it's much harder to do without seriously hurting or killing people, which attracts attention. On a metagame note, it also tends to make players a little more squeamish about using, despite the fact that they kill innocents on most runs anyways.
Orient
It doesn't really bother me...

The things that have Energy Drain are fundamentally different from the things with Essence Drain; the former include Blood Spirits and various incarnations of the Enemy, right? Given what's been written about them, the in-game concept of Energy Drain doesn't seem out of place.

Regarding game balance, I've never really had to deal with Bloodzilla in any game I've played, and I think I might have missed most of the related discussions here on the forums. It does seem like Energy Drain would be a really, really horrible thing to allow players access to. It doesn't seem like it'd be bad to allow a competent GM to have access to. Note that I said "competent GM." In the hands of an incompetent GM, there are so many things that can drive (and do*) drive games to complete idiocy that singling out Energy Drain seems kinda trivial. That is, being a competent GM means keeping a pretty constant eye on balance - not just in rules calls, but in how often those rules even come up. In my opinion, a GM who abuses Bloodzilla-type stuff is about on par with a GM who rules that nuclear weapons are available at the local Weapons World outlet. Hmn. I dunno - have these things shown up in your games and screwed things up..?



*Ugh. I'm going back over the list of "less than pleasing" gamers I've met. How about, "my favorite character was a fox shapeshifter who had a cybernetic 'human suit' that he used to deal with people day-to-day, so people would think he was human. That's how he was able to keep his job as one of the heads of a cutting-edge electronics/cybernetics corp." Yeah. Whatever floats your boat, Sparky.
Big D
This isn't just a matter of Bloodzilla, it's also a matter of mages being able to steal massive amounts of karma from other people very quickly and easily, as well as folks with lots of money being able to flat out buy karma...
kzt
Yeah, you'd think that with the hordes of desperate sinless people that they would be much more open to selling karma than a kidney.

And hey, with the mind manipulation spells, whose to say you have to pay up?
hyzmarca
Just binding a Force 1 Succubus doesn't actually work because there is no tradition that has natural access to the Succubus metaplane. In order to get a Succubus's spirit formula you'd first have to find a Succubus. If this Succubus is of Force 1, then you're set. This is highly unlikely given how powerful they can become. If not, then you'd have to either risk bind it or, if it has Astral Gateway, somehow convince it to send you to its home so that you can quest for another Succubus's formula.

Insect Shamans questing for the Formulas for Force 1 Mantid Mothers pose more problems.
NightmareX
Then of course one runs into the problem of how precisely the succubus is supposed to transfer karma TO the wannabe super mage. Don't seem to be a mechanic for that that I'm aware of.....
Fortune
QUOTE (NightmareX)
Then of course one runs into the problem of how precisely the succubus is supposed to transfer karma TO the wannabe super mage.

Um ... sex?!? biggrin.gif
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (NightmareX)
Then of course one runs into the problem of how precisely the succubus is supposed to transfer karma TO the wannabe super mage. Don't seem to be a mechanic for that that I'm aware of.....

The plan as I understand it is to hope that it is capable of making a Power Pact, grab the Energy Drain, and turn into a Super Saijin. Or something. Like Pun Pun it's an infinite loop which requires the intervention of an NPC who may not even exist.

-Frank
JBlades
QUOTE (kzt @ Oct 28 2007, 05:50 PM)
If it's not a metagame concept, how do you measure it in character?  What's it measured in? What does raw karma look like?

Well, it may not be a perfect correspondence, but I'd measure it in life experience and memory. If you accept that, it can be measured in time increments, and raw karma looks like wisdom/experience/knowledge/spiritual enlightenment in the eyes and minds of those who have it.

Energy drain could result in amnesia/memory loss of given periods of time or of particularly emotional moments in the person's life that define them as an individual. The succubus giving karma could be a transfer of a series of emotional highs which lead to a realization on the part of the receiver, lord knows I've had a few of those moments during sex, and "Oh God!" is certainly a spiritual cry of enlightenment... rotfl.gif

EDIT: To be metaphysically technical, I'm talking about events of personal gnosis.
Riley37

If there are mages who would benefit from a third party giving karma to a spirit, then at least some of them would pay nuyen, no?
So what is the going rate in nuyen for a point of karma?

We know that a BP equals 5,000 nuyen, but the BP-to-karma ratio can vary.
Blade
There's a big problem with your succubus theories: we still don't have rules for dikote in SR4.
Orient
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE (NightmareX @ Oct 29 2007, 01:57 AM)
Then of course one runs into the problem of how precisely the succubus is supposed to transfer karma TO the wannabe super mage.  Don't seem to be a mechanic for that that I'm aware of.....

The plan as I understand it is to hope that it is capable of making a Power Pact, grab the Energy Drain, and turn into a Super Saijin. Or something. Like Pun Pun it's an infinite loop which requires the intervention of an NPC who may not even exist.

-Frank

That still requires GM consent; I'd be strongly tempted to screw over any character who went for that in a game I was running. Or just not have the spirit in question offer that power as part of any Pact. Or warn the character that he's drifting onto a Twisted Path, and is in danger of becoming an NPC...
Zak
QUOTE (Orient)
That still requires GM consent; I'd be strongly tempted to screw over any character who went for that in a game I was running.  Or just not have the spirit in question offer that power as part of any Pact.  Or warn the character that he's drifting onto a Twisted Path, and is in danger of becoming an NPC...

The fact that it is theoretically possible is the problem. Moving the issue to a NPC might solve it for the individual game, but that is just as good as houseruling energy drain without pissing off the player in question.
Orient
QUOTE (Zak)
The fact that it is theoretically possible is the problem. Moving the issue to a NPC might solve it for the individual game, but that is just as good as houseruling energy drain without pissing off the player in question.

That's true. My point was more that it's also theoretically possible for 50-100 snipers in ruthenium polymers to crowd on every rooftop in the PCs vicinity, which would be pretty close to insta-death for the PCs. A bit retarded, yes - but possible.

Ehh. I don't know where I'm going with this. Mostly, I think that if players & GMs are going to be idiots, then there's a good chance that no amount of rule-tweaks will completely counter that idiocy.

I'm also really picky about who I game with... that's coloring my response here, I think.

(Hmn. What about in karma-for-cash games? "There are these horrible spirits from strange, eldritch netherworlds who hate humanity. They're trying to break into our reality. I .. I think they want our wallets..")
eidolon
I agree, Orient. The mere fact that it's possible for someone to gimp out and make a retarded character that breaks games doesn't constitute a major rules issue that must be fixed to me. I just say "hell no" and move on.
Big D
Frank nails it in one. And yes, no GM in their right mind would allow a player to actually *get away* with doing that--and yet, just as with Bloodzilla, or vampire mages with Sacrifice, the mechanic remains.

As for getting access to the shadow spirit plane, and then finding a succubus that is both willing to make a deal and can offer Power Pacts--that's what metaplanar quests are for. Keep doing quests until you get what you want (this is part of the reason to go for Force 1: it makes for easier quests). I didn't say it'd be a cakewalk, but the rewards--ignoring the role of GM fiat for a second--are well worth it.
Lagomorph
Funny enough, I was just in a stuffershack and no matter how much I tried to convince them, they wouldn't trade a soykaf and nuke-it burger for good karma, they kicked my ass back on to the streets..
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Lagomorph)
Funny enough, I was just in a stuffershack and no matter how much I tried to convince them, they wouldn't trade a soykaf and nuke-it burger for good karma, they kicked my ass back on to the streets..

And Burger King doesn't accept Krugerrands. Your point?
Fortune
Funny, but last I heard, Krugerrands were considered legal tender in South Africa. And there doesn't seem to be a lack of Burger Kings in Capetown.
GryMor
QUOTE (eidolon)
I agree, Orient.  The mere fact that it's possible for someone to gimp out and make a retarded character that breaks games doesn't constitute a major rules issue that must be fixed to me.  I just say "hell no" and move on.

Just because a sane GM is likely to go "Hell No" at the RAW end result, doesn't mean it isn't a big rules issue, in fact, the reaction INDICATES that there is a big rules issue. If I'm capable of doing this, then what actually happens is effectively random, and I force the GM to come up with something. The RAW shouldn't have infinite power loops, as they eliminate strategies, turning "once would be reasonable" situations into "don't even go there" situations.

Take Bloodzilla for example, the end result of the broken essence drain loop is that bloodzilla isn't allowed to start at all, that entire area of the rules gets walled off with a 'there be dragons' sign, when a fixed rule would seamlessly incorporate the blood spirit menace, making them usable but not earth consuming.

The rules are broken when the force you to convert whats supposed to be an option into an ad hoc plot device/deus ex machina. At that point you might as well not even stat things out.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Fortune)
Funny, but last I heard, Krugerrands were considered legal tender in South Africa. And there doesn't seem to be a lack of Burger Kings in Capetown.

And the Stuffer Shacks in Crystalwell accept karma as legal tender.

Actually, that isn't a bad idea, having megacorps opening up branches and outlet stores on the metaplanes
Orient
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 29 2007, 07:40 PM)
Funny, but last I heard, Krugerrands were considered legal tender in South Africa. And there doesn't seem to be a lack of Burger Kings in Capetown.

And the Stuffer Shacks in Crystalwell accept karma as legal tender.

Actually, that isn't a bad idea, having megacorps opening up branches and outlet stores on the metaplanes

I think that if I went through hell and back on a metaplanar quest, facing various personal demons in a deeply personal metaphysical journey... well, I'd be pretty pissed if I found a Starbucks at the citadel.

Fortune
QUOTE (Orient)
I think that if I went through hell and back on a metaplanar quest, facing various personal demons in a deeply personal metaphysical journey... well, I'd be pretty pissed if I found a Starbucks at the citadel.

I wouldn't! That would be an entirely fitting personal quest in my case. biggrin.gif
Orient
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 29 2007, 09:51 PM)
QUOTE (Orient @ Oct 30 2007, 12:48 PM)
I think that if I went through hell and back on a metaplanar quest, facing various personal demons in a deeply personal metaphysical journey... well, I'd be pretty pissed if I found a Starbucks at the citadel.

I wouldn't! That would be an entirely fitting personal quest in my case. biggrin.gif

*Leaves on an astral quest to find good espresso.*

wink.gif
Cain
Don't forget the Shadowrun Missions problem. Namely, that there are no house rules, severely limiting GM Fiat. If someone comes up with a by-the-book infinite loop, you have to allow it. And I on't know about you, but SRM is pretty much the only Shadowrun I get to play these days.
NightmareX
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
The plan as I understand it is to hope that it is capable of making a Power Pact, grab the Energy Drain, and turn into a Super Saijin. Or something. Like Pun Pun it's an infinite loop which requires the intervention of an NPC who may not even exist.

Ah, my bad - I overlooked that strategy it seems. Thanks Frank!
Jaid
QUOTE (Cain)
Don't forget the Shadowrun Missions problem. Namely, that there are no house rules, severely limiting GM Fiat. If someone comes up with a by-the-book infinite loop, you have to allow it. And I on't know about you, but SRM is pretty much the only Shadowrun I get to play these days.

i don't think that's SRM... that's a problem that *commandos* face.
Cain
Same difference. nyahnyah.gif

The issue is, you can't always limit players via house rules. In fact, the need for house rules shows a weakness in the system.
Fortune
Well Cain, is there an infinite loop that you have a problem with (or even one that you don't) usable by players that doesn't require GM Fiat to pull off?
Cain
Shortly, Bloodzilla will be possible. Once the Street Magic web enhancement shows up, Toxics will be a playable tradition. That in turn opens up Sacrifice and Blood Invoking.

The Succubus trick also depends on a GM declaring that a player cannot travel to a specific metaplane and bargain for a Spirit Pact. But if you've already introduced Succubi, there's no reason short of GM Fiat or GM technobabble why a player can't go there. And if the character makes a reasonable offer, there's no reason why a spirit would turn down a pact. If the GM isn't aware of what can happen, this trick can becme game-breaking real quick. And let's face it, not all Shadowrun GM's read these forums. Not even all Commandos come to Dumpshock; I know the one I game with was shocked to see a Mr. Lucky and a Pornomancer.
Fortune
Well, as far as I know even SRM uses 'house rules', one of which is restricting access to Sacrificing and Blood Magic and those types of things.

As for Bloodzilla, it has been stated that that particular loop will be closed, probably in time for the Traditions and Metamagics to open up to players (but still maybe not in SRM).
Cain
QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 1 2007, 07:44 PM)
Well, as far as I know even SRM uses 'house rules', one of which is restricting access to Sacrificing and Blood Magic and those types of things.

Unfortunately, no. No house rules at all for Commandos. Sacrifice and Blood Invoking are only restricted, not banned; if a player can come up with a good reason for it, you can't outright say "No".

QUOTE
As for Bloodzilla, it has been stated that that particular loop will be closed, probably in time for the Traditions and Metamagics to open up to players (but still maybe not in SRM).

No offense, but I'll believe it when I see it. It won't be the first time a promised errata or product failed to materilize. (SoLA,, anyone?)
Fortune
QUOTE (Cain)
QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 1 2007, 07:44 PM)
Well, as far as I know even SRM uses 'house rules', one of which is restricting access to Sacrificing and Blood Magic and those types of things.

Unfortunately, no. No house rules at all for Commandos. Sacrifice and Blood Invoking are only restricted, not banned; if a player can come up with a good reason for it, you can't outright say "No".

Well, that isn't true for a start. SRM uses the Factions rules, which definitely qualify as 'house rules', being that they are not included in any actual Shadowrun rule book. Another 'house rule' concerns Table Rating, another thing not covered in the books.

From the SRM FAQ ...

QUOTE
What kinds of magic characters can I play?
You can select any of the magical positive qualities presented in the core SR4 rules or in SM. In addition to the Shaman and Hermetic traditions presented in the core rules, all 19 traditions presented in the Alternate Magical Traditions section of SM are acceptable.

The Paths of Toxics, the Twisted and other Magical Threats are not permitted to player characters - they are for adventure NPCs only.


Cain
Didn't know about that one. But that still does nothing for the pornomancer with a spirit pact with a Succubus.
Fortune
They got around things like that in previous editions but just disallowing Edges and Flaws. Not so easy in this one though.
Fortune
I can't find any restriction on Spirit Pacts (there probably should be though), but I'm not an SRM expert.
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