Does anyone else think it's weird that Data Search is a Skill and not a Program? Search engines are getting more and more sophisticated everyday, and they're so cheap, they're free. Search engines like Google even tell me when I misspell a search word, even really obscure ones like author names. Try Googling for "ktoolu", it's amazing.

EDIT: While you may need a separate Data Search skill now in 2007, in the very near future search engines will become so sophisticated that the Data Search skill will be absorbed into the Computer skill. It will be very similar to how the Automobile Starting skill was absorbed into the Automobile Piloting skill by the mid-20th century. Once natural language search is perfected, automated object recognition is deployed, and the semantic web is fully formed, there will be one stop shopping for browsing the entire repository of human knowledge making data search as simple a task as starting a car.

EDIT: I guess a better question is: If Data Search is a separate skill from Computer, why aren't Edit and Track separate skills too? For example, the Edit program gives you the ability to Photoshop a video, cook the audit logs, and change data in mid-stream, which seems like each of those tasks would require more highly specialized skills than using 2070-version natural language search engines for a Data Search.

What do you think of the idea of a houserule that removes Data Search from the skill list and adding it to the list of cheap non-hacking programs along with Edit, Scan, and Command? (essentially replacing Browse)

Based on the number of people who do not use Dump shock search....

Yeah, but the people who don't use Search don't pore over the posts manually either. They just start a topic that says, "Hey, what about this thing I want to know about?"

There's a Browse program.

But even with a good Browse program, knowing how, where and what to search for is still a skill. Today it'd be knowing the keywords to use (when you check website search statistics you realize that a lot of people write their search in natural language rather than using keywords, which isn't really efficient today), knowing how to use modifiers (+, -, "", AND, OR) or regular expressions. I'm sure there's something similar in 2070 even with advanced search programs.

Data Search skill is also the ability to link your findings together, to see the patterns, to know what to dig deeper and what to ignore...

I'm deeply unappy with the Shadowrun Matrix, but I have no problem at all with Datasearch being a skill. Typing a word into Google is not the only or best way to find information on the web. It's a good first step, but refining search terms is needed to get anything but the sketchiest information. Even getting up to the minute sports scores is something that takes more than a rudimentary knowledge of the internets to retrieve for free.

-Frank

With an exponentially growth of available information comes a need for more refined methods of searching. The browse-program is needed for filtering out sponsored links and indexing data storages that are otherwise only accessible using internal search functions.

Edit: And DO NOT tell that to any librarian. Those with not-that-good-tempers will remember your face for the rest of your studies, and YOU will never learn that kind of skill in the few years you have.

The last three posts parallel my sentiments. Data Search is a skill, regardless of the tools used, its a skill to put all those pieces of information together to get something worthwhile out of it.

Now, the tool could be a search engine, it could also be a set of file cabinets in a persons office or a log full of access IDs...yeah, its a skill and it is a solid one, regardless if you are a "hacker" or not.

But compare what you can do today what you could do just 5 years ago. It's staggering how fast search technology has improved. Natural language searching is getting better everyday. Everyday Google gets better at figuring out what you mean when you do a search. Granted some search engines absolutely suck (I'm looking in your direction eBay), but other engines like Amazon and Google are unbelievable. I think the joke article on the Onion nailed it: Amazon.com Recommendations Understand Area Woman Better Than Husband

Buster, you do know there is a Browse program, right? That's your google or whatnot right there. A typical person with data search 0 can still find info about most subjects even with poor programs.

Trying to find out more secretive or rare info, or the ability to filter through all the useless info you get is a skill though.

In my experience, everyone with an ok browse program and 0-3 in skill can find out pretty much anything on a extended test - the trick becomes to know what kind of info is just unavailable on a matrix search or not.

For the most part, Google is just huge. But comparatively speaking, Amazon and Google are nowhere near as discriminating or useful (or comprehensive) when doing exacting research because they don't have to be. And because a lot of databases aren't readily available. But LN (which I'll use since its Academic Universe is familiar to many college students) does have a natural language search feature.

It sucks.

Unless you're really lucky (or being very, very lax with your standards), finding something of utility without having to wade through a ton of garbage is near-impossible.

I think its the vast amount of information out there that makes it a skill rather than a program. Getting information isn't the problem, finding what need in the information you get is that hard part.

From my experience: I have to echo some of the previous posters who spoke up about how Data Search is a skill.

Data Search is about more than framing your queries the right way, Data Search is as much about knowing -which- databases hold -what- data, about figuring out the spam, the superficially-relevant-but-substantively-useless info, the same-info-stated-8-billion-ways, and so forth, and filtering them so that you get -only- the results you need.

For more specialized databases, also, Data Search would equally represent knowing that said databases even -exist-.

Nobody said it can't be supported by the mechanics. It'd be trivially easy to just roll it into the Computer skill, especially since they're both part of the electronics group anyway. That doesn't mean you're going to convince any of us that it's a particularly good idea, however. Information is the most valuable currency of all and I'm perfectly fine with idea of having to spend valuable resources to become good at scouring the 'trix. Besides, there already IS a super librarian available at your beck and call: a high quality Agent paired with an equivalent Browse program.

To answer your original question; no, no one else thinks that it's weird.

I'm not saying that I use it this way a lot (but after this thread, I may just have to), but Data Search doesn't have to be connected to a computer, comm or have anything to do with the Matrix.

And I think that is why it deserves to be a skill unto itself. Now, if that was not the intention of the skill, then I agree, we would all be much better served if it just rolled into Perception, Computer and Hacking.

Here's my take: you can get Google-able info "where is the Humanis front office in Seattle?" with just Browse 1; threshold 1, extended test, 1 minute per try.
With a (Browse+DataSearch) pool of 3 or so, or by some houserules (LOG+Data Search limited to Browse), you ask a more complex or obsure question, you get a huge pile of search results, you can still narrow down the results to what you actually need. "What are some bars or other social spots in Seattle frequented by Humanis regulars?"
If you actually have good Data Search and a high-rating Browse program, you can track down not only obscure data, but intentionally hidden data. For example, "what is the SIN name, nom du guerre, and comcode of the main leader of Humanis goon squads in Seattle". It's not *posted* as such anywhere, but with enough data aggregation and sifting, if anyone wrote it down anywhere on the Matrix, you can maybe pull that needle out of the haystack.

I try to not have my phone number posted anywhere on the Internet, but it might be somewhere. And starting with just my username on this forum, you would need more than a no-brainer 10-second search to find it. (if you can find it in under a minute, you have smarts and/or skill.)

Also, good point on non-Matrix use. Records that were wiped out in the Crash or Crash 2.0 might exist in paper backup, or privately-held databanks, or otherwise require more than just a search engine crawl.

Besides which, how many people here *really* know how to use google to its full potential? There's layers and layers of commands that the average user will never even be aware of. Using google can need a skill in and of itself, if you want anything really private. For example, I read an article CNN.com on how people were digging up Social Security numbers by using highly intricate google search commands. The average user wouldn't even know how to do that.

Why does google give me better results when I use my experience and skill to be a bit more selective on my search terms?

I shouldn't have to do that, Googles does it all for me! Right Buster?

I admit, I didn't read every post up to this point so this may have been said already.

there is a big difference between typing something in google and hoping it finds it, and actually pouring over forum posts and newsgroups for an answer.

for example, lets say you wanted to find out about good locations in your city to find people who want to play shadowrun, you could very easily type -- Shadowrun +groups +{yourcity} -- into google and you might even find some help there. alternatively, you could come to dumpshock and post in the forum to see if anyone in your city plays shadowrun and frequents here, you could also see if facebook has a shadowrun group and join it.

there are more Data search options than just a search engine or program, there is a very detailed procedure for procuring data and you may never even use a search engine if you know where to look.

I imagine this would translate very well to the Matrix in SR

I guess a better question is: If Data Search is a separate skill from Computer, why aren't Edit and Track separate skills too?

For example, the Edit program gives you the ability to Photoshop a video, cook the audit logs, and change data in mid-stream, which seems like each of those tasks would require more highly specialized skills than using 2070-version natural language search engines for a Data Search.

seriously, have you ever tried to look anything up on the internet
Google and the like are good starting points but you really have to filter through alot of stuff sometimes to get where you wanna be.

Is anyone reading my posts (or anyone else's) or does everyone just read the title and start typing a reply?

I'm reading them. I just don't agree with you on the subject. My reasons have pretty much been covered already, so there is no need for me to repeat them.

i've argued for a long time that edit should be a separate skill. i don't agree that data search should be merged with computer--but if edit is, data search certainly should be. creating believable video, audio, still images, and other media is a much, much more complex task than searching for information.

To a certain degree a agree with Buster. Of course any special operation (I'm not speaking about basics but about tasks as editing pictures, cutting videos, creating a bigger network etc.) performed by using a computer should require a single skill.

But this isn't reality. I think that from a game balance point of view the use of data search and computer makes sense. Since search can be a powerful tool in shadowrun it's ok to seperate it from other tasks you may perform with a computer.
So, you don't have to be a computer expert if you just want to play somebody who's a decent data miner.

I'm glad someone brought up the point that it's a game mechanic.

Legwork is a huge deal in Shadowrun, and the ease with which a hacker can (or should be able to, fluff wise) perform it needs to be tempered somewhat. Hence, if you really want to have an easy time of digging up information, you spend BPs on the skill to do so.

On a related fluff note: Does anyone have subscription "Research Nodes" in their SR universe?

For instance: sign up to the service with your SIN for a certain yearly fee and you have access to their agents. At the basic level it'd be 1/1 Browse. You could have 3 levels of subscription; basic, advanced (3/3), and platinum (6/6). Each costs more and you have to pay once you go over a certain amount of searches. You could also buy the Basic but pay on a one-time basis for Platinum searches if you need the extra push.

Agent searches the general matrix and any nodes to which you give it Access. Research service tracks all the nodes you access and if anything illegal is detected (ie. it trips an alert or you are using it to search for cheap BTLs) it automatically sends a report to law enforcement.

This would be a great service for SINners and even some small corps would probably use this service.

Google is great for finding porn when you're looking for some obscure topic for work. Using Google effectively is on par with having a Datasearch skill of 1.

As your skill improves, you not only use Google more effectively (restricting searches to specific sites, AND/OR clauses, +/-, etc), but your repository of search engines and services increases and you know which service will get you better results faster.