Before I pull out my spiel, lets look at some definitions and pages.

Matrix—The worldwide telecommunications network.
Personal Area Network (PAN)[/b]—The network created by all of the wirelessly-linked electronic devices carried on (or within) a person. The commlink is usually the primary hub of this network.
Persona(Def)—The “shell� program that represents a user in the Matrix; the user’s icon.
Persona (Rules)-The persona represents your Matrix alter ego. It is a combination of programs that you use, in conjunction with your device’ s OS, to represent yourself to other users and nodes in the Matrix.
Commlink—The personal computer used by nearly everyone to access wireless services, typically loaded with accessories. Commlinks also serve as the hub of the user’s PAN (personal area network). Often just “comm� or “link. �


OK, now that we've got that down, lets look at something else:

Matrix Combat
When all the boxes on the Matrix Condition Monitor fill up, an icon crashes. If your persona icon crashes, you are immediately disconnected from the Matrix.

OK, now maybe you already see the problem, maybe you dont, and if you don't, well...some story behind this. Me and good ol' Frank Trollman were discussing SR4, which lead to Agent Smith and Bloodzilla, and before you know it we were on a tangent on if IC attack Nodes (him) or if they just attack Icons (me). So, we went through it and got to that little paragraph above, and I noticed a little tid bit. The very laaaaast word. Matrix. What is the matrix these days? Hell, I really don't see a need for a matrix myself, specially with the 'unlimited jumping' way from streetlight to streetlight starting in Seattle and surfing New York New Yorks net, where does the Matrix fit into that if you never need a RTG or LTG? Anyhow, back on subject.


(Your Commlink)>(Bob's commlink)>(Sam's Commlink)

None of these are 'a worldwide telecommunications network.' or hell, even a RTG or LTG. Just three guys in the woods, lets say, or three guys across the states. So you attack Sam, and loose, condition monitor filled! Oh noez...your disconnected...from the Matrix? Well, you wernt on the matrix. Lets get past that Persona doesnt control signal I/O any freaking how, that somehow the sum of my existence in pictures on your network has just booted me. Lets say I AM connected to the Matrix, does that mean I'm still conected to my PAN? Frank suggests that dying in the matrix is your com crashing, but they've got rules for attacking an OS, and it don't deal with Condition Monitor.

To continue the idea, if your PAN doesn't crash, does the WLAN your connected to stay connected? If it's just your PAN that stays connected (You know, your commlink and shit) why wouldn't you just have 'over 9000' connections via different routes ready? It seems to suggest that all of your connections are severed instantly from all Matrix connections...Because your picture got killed

Ok, in your example of three guys in the woods...

If two of them are duking it out in cybercombat, they're doing it in one of the nodes representing the various commlinks. There is no "matrix" in between these nodes for them to duke it out in.

Now, if someone gets "disconnected" by getting their persona crashed, then they are dumped out of that node (even if it's the node for their own commlink) as well as any other nodes they may be active in. The persona program then has to restart (not the commlink itself), and the person is once more sitting in their own node.

If the previous combat took place in someones elses node, they need to hack their way back in to that node if they didn't set up a back door.

I agree that the terms can be vague or confusing, but I think most people don't think too much on fighting in the "matrix" or not. I mean, if you hack a node 100km away or 10m away it doesen't matter if there is matrix connection in the former, or good enough signal strenght in the latter.

And when it says your matrix condition monitor fills up you're dumped from whatever node you were in (and may suffer dumpshock). I've always interpreted it as your commlink crashing as well, and used the reboot time for the time needed to get back online to hack again. Maybe a houserule, but I think it works and it makes Attack programs somewhat useful for an IC even against human opponents.

What happens to Dumpshocks presence on all of our browsers when only the DS website on the dumpshock server server goes down? (The server is up serving other web sites, just not DS)

[QUOTE]No, he is saying you can't initiate cybercombat with anyone/thing who isn't sharing a node with you.[\QUOTE]

Even if this was true, which I'm sure it's not as when I hack-on-the-fly to someones network-- get an unauthorized account I can still beat the living crap out of them, lets put the same situation on an authorized account, security account or Admin account. Same thing happens if I loose, I loose connection to everything.


[QUOTE]You cannot access information without being vulnerable to that information, the best you can do is to try and filter and translate it.[\QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Like the browser vulnerabilities of today, your persona [\QUOTE]

Lets not get into 'This is the matrix version, this is the real world version', because if I telnet a server, logon, telnet another server logon, and am booted off one I most certainly dont have to reboot, or reset my server, or my computer...ect. It wont work, the two technologies don't match



[QUOTE]Yes well that's what it says. But as you said, that's stupid.

As for the consequence, I don't think you need a commlink at all to use cyberlegs, at least nothing in the book says you need a commlink to use cyberware at all (well except the implanted commkink of course). [\QUOTE]

You're completely right here, that was a big mixup, I apologize.

[QUOTE]Even if you had your cyberlimb(S) as part of your PAN, having your commlink crash doesen't mean everything linked to it shuts down... if my PC crashes then my friend on the LAN doesen't suddenly freeze either.

I know this isn't RAW, but why wouldn't this house rule work?[\QUOTE]

Crashing a commlink means it no longer sends signals, meaning you cant give it orders.


-SNIP-


[QUOTE]In any case, if attacking your icon only means you can be disconnected for a second before logging on again its not much of an attack, is it? And what's the point of medic programs if you can just reconnect instantly fully healed?[\QUOTE]

This would me we have a problem with the rules, eh?

NightRain's post nearly makes my argument for me. I was not looking for realism, nor answers to questions that can only be answered with theme.

I am suggesting that perhaps the word and usage of Matrix is antiquated and *dead*. Shit just doesn't work anymore if you use the word. By definition and logic even if my Condition Bar is full after some hefty Cybercombat I am not disconnected from that node, but the Matrix.

(Matrix)
|
(You)---(Bob)

Before Combat!

(Matrix)
x
(You)---(Bob)

After Combat?


Even if you assumed that if your persona crashes in cybercombat means that your Commlink crashes, as some think, that means the Program and OS crash tests are a waste of time. Why not do both?

GryMor: You can not attack someone you aren't sharing a node with, period. Cybercombat doesn't happen on a network, it happens on individual nodes. Networks are just one of the mechanisms that you can use to get to a particular node. There is nothing stopping two people from DNIing via hardlines into one commlink with it's wireless capability turned off.

Me: lets put the same situation on an authorized account, security account or Admin account. Same thing happens if I loose, I loose connection to everything.

You are distinct entity from your commlink, that is, your commlink is a node, your persona isn't. I'm presuming the (you) in your diagram is your commlink, as otherwise the connection to (bob) doesn't make sense.

Connections/sessions are directional, so I'm going to presume that the connections/sessions listed were initiated by the persona accsessing through the (you) commlink.

Finally, your commlink is PART of the matrix, that is, it is a node within which matrix actions can be taken.

So the REAL diagram is:

Matrix[/b—The worldwide telecommunications network.
[b]Personal Area Network (PAN)—The network created by all of the wirelessly-linked electronic devices carried on (or within) a person. The commlink is usually the primary hub of this network.


The problem being here, Night and Gry, is that you, bob and sally all strung together in the woods, are not by definition connected or on The Matrix.

Your diagram does not make sense, as your commlink /doesnt/ have to be connected to the Matrix, by it's definition, to connect to other people.

But if you /were/ connected, on another screen, why does your Persona getting knocked out on his node in any way affect your connection to a different node, as suggested by the 'I got knocked out' paragraph?

So 7-7, if you've found a problem, do you have a solution, or parameters of what you would call a useful solution?

Or do you just want to point out that RAW on Matrix operations, including cybercombat, is a mishmash, as if involving multiple writers and editors with conflicting or unclear assumptions? If so... you were far from the first, but here's a biscuit anyways.

If you want to know what the Matrix is, I'd say there's a specific large set of nodes, running on various machines from personal comlinks to office computers to Response 20+ corporate mainframe megacomputers, which have so many connections between them, some wired and some transmitted, that access to any one of them could eventually lead to access to any other with the appropriate permissions (which are rarely granted in actual use). Most people who want access connect to a portal node, which are common in urban areas, and their connection then extends from there, to other parts of that matrix, which most people find rather useful for looking up data and sending messages. Because most hacking happens on that Matrix, the rules present that as the default case. Much in the same way that the rules on physical combat assume that combat occurs between organisms with two arms; if you happen to be running a campaign in which the PCs are gene-tweaked elephants wielding weapons with their trunks, then the two-gun rules (BBB p. 141) are going to match your game less well.
If you and a friend connect your commlinks while on Pluto, then you in effect have a separate "mini-Matrix" or intranet consisting of those two nodes, not connected to anyone else. If you deny him access and he tries to send signals to confuse your comlink, then you use the exact same rules as for Matrix combat, *but the Matrix itself is unaffected*.
Mercy Hospital has its own internal "mini-Matrix" or intranet, which is not connected to the main Matrix. If you got onto one part of it, say the registration station at the ER entrance, and could follow connections over to the surgeon's workstation (which gives her realtime AR displays of the patient's vital signs, and also a connection to the patient's history and symptom descriptions which were entered at the ER intake station), then you use the same rules as for Matrix combat, although the only connections involved, and thus closable in this encounter, are connections within the Mercy Hospital intranet, or between that intranet and something else (eg if the hospital director's commlink sends a ping and gets access, or your commlink sends an identical spoofed ping and gets access).

I'm gonna call that simple and workable. If it doesn't satisfy you, then what would?

My solution was presented already: Chuck the word Matrix, it solves most if not every problem with wording, it leaves confusion at the door. It's the same problem with SR3 Matrix, where you could not hack a laptop because it wasn't a mainframe and thusly had no Subsystems, and thusly no TN to run your System Operation off of...

If you're going to be ambiguous about computers, which they try to be, drop this Matrix crap, or at least call everything the Matrix and define it as 'computer shit'.

Unwired is in Dev, we know this. Matrix for SR3 did a wonderful thing: It cleared up and corrected a lot of shit without retroactively changing things (For the most part).

For the most part, this is a post of annoyance and probably could be ignored, until you get to the fact that you, by the book, cant die if you just connect to someones node from yours to theirs.

The Matrix is any set of nodes that you can take matrix actions while in, it is also the system of protocols and software that allow you to take matrix actions.

If you are in the woods, hard wired and logged in to a single commlink that doesn't even have wireless and is in no way connected to anything but you, via your datajack, trode net or other HMI device, you are STILL in the Matrix, just, a very very small island, currently disconnected from everything else.

If there is some IC on your single node island, and said IC decides to attack your persona (you are sharing a node after all, and if it just takes you out, it's become master of it's own universe), then, when it blows away your persona YOU (your persona, your HMI, and possibly your grey matter) crash out of the Matrix, your session with the commlink dies, and maybe you die along with it. The commlink keeps humming along (maybe a bit happier now that your persona and it's software isn't chewing up any cycles), the IC waits for you to reconnect and you are all alone, out in meatspace with a crashed interface connected to a toasted (or gone) persona software.

edit:
One thing to note though, not every device that can be connected to the matrix is, itself, a node. You can, in the complete absence of a commlink, be hardwired into a device, with no persona and no node. A medkit for instance, doesn't run the matrix protocols, it's just a device with a 'simple' interface, that could be subscribed to a commlink (and thus available via the ubiquotouse wireless mesh network), but you can't engage in matrix combat on it, in fact, you can't even BE on it. Doesn't stop you from hacking it, but it does mean your software is irelevent, what with no where to run it.

A very shaky analogy based on avatars in multiplayer online games:

Usually, if you see an avatar on your screen's display, there's another player somewhere, and their computer is running the game program and is in connnection with the server.

Sometimes there's no player at the keyboard, and the avatar is immobile. You can still interact with that avatar, eg have your avatar kill it and take its weapons (or flag or whatever). In SR, the equivalent is: they are logged in, but not actually in control of their persona, perhaps because they're taking a Blackout nap, or they're awake but their comlink's avatar-controlling program has crashed. You can, with the right utilities and permissions, treat their avatar as an ARO, which will list their in-game username, and perhaps trace the avatar's connection back to the Matrix ID of their computer or comlink, and maybe even deduce its physical address. (eg their comlink connected to the South Fork Public Library, which connected them to South Fork Main NeoNet Portal, which connected them to the Ares Miracle Shooter server... well, if you have a friend who can get to the South Fork Public Library, have them scan the area for connections!)

Sometimes there's not even a working computer running the avatar anymore, but the server still displays the avatar. In that case, you can do whatever you want to the avatar without getting resistance, but the only data you can get is any data remaining "resident" in the avatar... probably just the username, but perhaps more if they decided to list, say, an age, gender, metatype and dating preference on their avatar. (whether you BELIEVE that they are really "F 21 ELF, ISO 3WAY" is up to you.)

There sure is an ambiguity that should be lifted with the Matrix word : does it mean Network (in which case it can be a PAN, ad-hoc WLAN network, a building's LAN, or the world wide WAN) or is it just the name of the world wide WAN ?

But the whole "you're disconnected of the Matrix" you're arguing about here is merely nitpicking. It just means that when you get pwned in cybercombat your persona (which is the same in all nodes you're connected to) is sent back home, hence he's gone from all the nodes you were connected to.
The idea of the rule is clear. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've got the impression that you just brought this up to bash SR4 Matrix (and maybe the whole Matrix concept) (using the Matrix word here as "the whole SR4 computer system").

The Matrix was always defined by everything described about its structure.

The way things are, any node might function as relay station and provide a connection between user and target node. We thankfully do not need to learn TCP/IP v2070.

"The Matrix" could be replaced by "The wireless world" any time.


If a persona crashes, your browser is dead but the PC is running. This is a prime advantage over crashing the OS if the attacker is already on your PAN. Crashing the OS would deny access to your devices and data.
If someone wants to kill you, he´ll possibly want to crash your biofeedback-filter first. (You better hope. Some will not need to care.)

my take:

when you crash the persona you crash the comlink. so what happens to the pan?

well i would think that most of the devices would go into some kind of standby mode, awaiting the reboot of the comlink.

and yes, that means that hacking some jokers comlink and crashing the os will have just the same effect (imo the persona is a extension of the os into the node your on). but doing so would make you the target for any ice he happens to be running (and may well take just as long or longer then just hitting him enough times with the attack program). may as well smack him with a attack program from the current node. hell, if he is hacking your node, you can get the local ice to help out in slapping him silly

and i see the misunderstanding that you need a comlink to have basic control of cyberlimbs are still alive and kicking. and i loved that example of a surgeon getting crashed while doing his job. thats exactly why the surgeon would have the surgery covered in blocking paint or wallpaper, and not open any kind of outside connection while working.

Matrix- Sort of a left over term from the past like calling a corporate nodes agents IC. I Assume it to mean anytime your interacting with another node.

Persona- I've always seen the Persona as more then just a visual icon, it's also the software that has the cabability to interpret both hot and cold sim signals. Hell I've had my browser lock up and have to restart my whole comp even though it did'nt freeze up other software. Maybe its a safety feature, with no "icon" software running leaves you vulnerable so system removes itself from transmission? (This is really just a conceptual issue.)

Commlink- No you don't need A RTG,LTG,PLTG, etc... But they still serve a purpose.

exampe: Bob is sitting in a ravine he "hops" his signal to a node down the road the only one in range a cafe,then a nearby house,a ranchers comm, sleeping trucker, homer simpson,someones blender, etc... Until you reach the node your seeking. Fine until Homer logs off then every connection past him is gone. So an RTG and others still serve a purpose paticularly for those who don't want to go around hacking.

Now back to persona problem. Even if you consider you icon just a visual rep and not a more sophisticated software package. Theres more then one way to approach the loss of connection. A safety feature ( that can be disabled), a lock of the OS not a crash just a "timeout", a sophisticated effect of the attack program, add your own concepts here ( ).

Just boils down to the flavor you want for you game or if you want to change cannon material in a home game. Obviously it's well past time to go back and rewrite 4th edtion. So it's best to do what gamers have down for many decades now. Use your imagination!

Okay, here's my take:

Matrix refers to the world wide interconnection of nodes in a mesh network. If three of you are standing in the woods without Signal range to the mesh network then you have just formed a PLTG. If you are all connected to each other and also connected to the Matrix you have just formed an PLTG with a SAN to the Matrix. There are still LTGs and RTGs but they don't serve as many purposes as before. They are almost purely directory services now unless the provider puts other bells and whistles on it that you want to use.

eg. in my game SeaSource = Seattle LTG. It is the directory for Seattle but it also has other neat functions (reviews of restaurants, listing of events around town, personal networking like facebook, etc).

When you turn on your commlink you start at your commlink. When you start a Matrix session you start with whatever, non-PAN node, you first Access. So if I log on (Complex Action) to SeaSource I am now on the Matrix with Access to SeaSource. If I decide that I want to log on to ShadowSea (complex action) but in a different session I now have 2 sessions and I am connected to the Matrix. I run a couple of Data Searches on SeaSource and ShadowSea and discover that Joe Wageslave that has the passcode I want is into Urban Brawl and posts on a particular Urban Brawl forum in Seattle. I start a 3rd session (Log onto node Complex action) and have 3 sessions and a connection to the Matrix. I talk him into giving me his passcode and log off (complex action) the Urban Brawl forum. I now have 2 sessions and a Matrix Connection.

Now I log on (complex action) to the Corp Site and give it my Passcode. I now have 3 sessions and a Matrix connection. The Spider discovers that something isn't right and attacks me. I am getting my ass handed to me so I have two options:

Jack Out--Free Action, my Persona is disconnected from me, helpless but still accessing those 3 nodes. Eventually my connections will time out and I will be booted out of those nodes. Once I am booted out of all 3 I lose my Matrix connection.

Suck It--no action stand there and take it like a man, I am dumped and lose connection to my Persona as well as access to those 3 nodes and my Matrix connection

Those two options are very similar. Jacking out severs my connection to my Persona and my Persona being crashed also severs my connection to my persona. In the former case I am still accessing all those nodes in the later I automatically lose my access. So let's see what happens next:

Jacked out and Log On again: I log back onto my commlink (complex action) and automatically have access to those nodes. I am in the Corp Node and the Spider can start pounding on me again right away! Not only that but he also had that 1 IP to continue Tracking me. Worried, I Log Off from the Corp Node (complex action). Of course by now he could have told his Agents to Analyze me, follow me to my Public Nodes, and they are now panel beating me in two other nodes. I take 2 complex actions to log off the other nodes and I am now only logged on to my commlink.

Dumped and Log On again: I log back onto my commlink (complex action) and have no connection to anything. I log back onto SeaSource and ShadowSea (2 complex actions). If I want I can log onto the Corp Node again but that'd just be silly. However, the Spider is probably still tracking me and will catch up to me eventually.

The two situations are almost exactly the same in my view so I'd consider being Dumped being an Involuntary Jack Out.

Note that Black Attack Programs are EXACTLY the same as Jacking Out! You lose the connection to your Persona and can no longed take actions but you are still connected to all the nodes you had access to! So:

Dumped by Attack = Jack Out with Severed Connections
Dumped by Black Attack = Jacked Out

Last point. If your Commlink is not crashed, just your Persona, and you are still in broadcast range of ANYTHING connected to the Matrix--YOU ARE STILL ON THE MATRIX!!!!!! This would even apply to the case of the 3 of you in the woods. You have lost access to the other two nodes but they still have YOU on their Subscription List. They can still track you or follow you back to your commlink and do stuff there. You'd have to take the meatbody action of turning off the wireless button on your commlink's physical case (making your Signal = NA). If you aren't within 10m of hostile nodes (either physically or by leap frogging) you could just limit signal to 0 and still have access to your wireless PAN.

If you are broadcasting you have access to all wireless devices on your PAN as well as all of those with skinlink and DNI. If you are not broadcasting you only have access to your skinlinks and DNI.