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Seven-7
Before I pull out my spiel, lets look at some definitions and pages.

Matrix—The worldwide telecommunications network.
Personal Area Network (PAN)[/b]—The network created by all of the wirelessly-linked electronic devices carried on (or within) a person. The commlink is usually the primary hub of this network.
Persona(Def)—The “shell? program that represents a user in the Matrix; the user’s icon.
Persona (Rules)-The persona represents your Matrix alter ego. It is a combination of programs that you use, in conjunction with your device’ s OS, to represent yourself to other users and nodes in the Matrix.
Commlink—The personal computer used by nearly everyone to access wireless services, typically loaded with accessories. Commlinks also serve as the hub of the user’s PAN (personal area network). Often just “comm? or “link. ?


OK, now that we've got that down, lets look at something else:

Matrix Combat
When all the boxes on the Matrix Condition Monitor fill up, an icon crashes. If your persona icon crashes, you are immediately disconnected from the Matrix.

OK, now maybe you already see the problem, maybe you dont, and if you don't, well...some story behind this. Me and good ol' Frank Trollman were discussing SR4, which lead to Agent Smith and Bloodzilla, and before you know it we were on a tangent on if IC attack Nodes (him) or if they just attack Icons (me). So, we went through it and got to that little paragraph above, and I noticed a little tid bit. The very laaaaast word. Matrix. What is the matrix these days? Hell, I really don't see a need for a matrix myself, specially with the 'unlimited jumping' way from streetlight to streetlight starting in Seattle and surfing New York New Yorks net, where does the Matrix fit into that if you never need a RTG or LTG? Anyhow, back on subject.


(Your Commlink)>(Bob's commlink)>(Sam's Commlink)

None of these are 'a worldwide telecommunications network.' or hell, even a RTG or LTG. Just three guys in the woods, lets say, or three guys across the states. So you attack Sam, and loose, condition monitor filled! Oh noez...your disconnected...from the Matrix? Well, you wernt on the matrix. Lets get past that Persona doesnt control signal I/O any freaking how, that somehow the sum of my existence in pictures on your network has just booted me. Lets say I AM connected to the Matrix, does that mean I'm still conected to my PAN? Frank suggests that dying in the matrix is your com crashing, but they've got rules for attacking an OS, and it don't deal with Condition Monitor.

To continue the idea, if your PAN doesn't crash, does the WLAN your connected to stay connected? If it's just your PAN that stays connected (You know, your commlink and shit) why wouldn't you just have 'over 9000' connections via different routes ready? It seems to suggest that all of your connections are severed instantly from all Matrix connections...Because your picture got killed frown.gif
NightRain
Ok, in your example of three guys in the woods...

If two of them are duking it out in cybercombat, they're doing it in one of the nodes representing the various commlinks. There is no "matrix" in between these nodes for them to duke it out in.

Now, if someone gets "disconnected" by getting their persona crashed, then they are dumped out of that node (even if it's the node for their own commlink) as well as any other nodes they may be active in. The persona program then has to restart (not the commlink itself), and the person is once more sitting in their own node.

If the previous combat took place in someones elses node, they need to hack their way back in to that node if they didn't set up a back door.
Seven-7
QUOTE
Ok, in your example of three guys in the woods...

If two of them are duking it out in cybercombat, they're doing it in one of the nodes representing the various commlinks. There is no "matrix" in between these nodes for them to duke it out in.

Are you suggesting you can't initiate Cybercombat without being connected to a world wide network?

QUOTE
Now, if someone gets "disconnected" by getting their persona crashed, then they are dumped out of that node (even if it's the node for their own commlink) as well as any other nodes they may be active in. The persona program then has to restart (not the commlink itself), and the person is once more sitting in their own node.

Here's the problem with that bit on being crashed from a node and all other nodes disconnecting you: Why? Why would the representation of my stats, not the programs themselves or the OS, because they dont ever leave your commlink, but just the representation, on Sam's commlink, disconnect me from say...Sally's way in Idaho? There are also no rules, that I know of, for restarting your Persona. Your OS? Yes, your Programs? Yes, but not your Persona. Or for that matter, crashing a persona without cybercombat


QUOTE
If the previous combat took place in someones elses node, they need to hack their way back in to that node if they didn't set up a back door.


Cant disagree with that, cus it works.



Edits in bold.
FriendoftheDork
I agree that the terms can be vague or confusing, but I think most people don't think too much on fighting in the "matrix" or not. I mean, if you hack a node 100km away or 10m away it doesen't matter if there is matrix connection in the former, or good enough signal strenght in the latter.

And when it says your matrix condition monitor fills up you're dumped from whatever node you were in (and may suffer dumpshock). I've always interpreted it as your commlink crashing as well, and used the reboot time for the time needed to get back online to hack again. Maybe a houserule, but I think it works and it makes Attack programs somewhat useful for an IC even against human opponents.
Seven-7
QUOTE
I agree that the terms can be vague or confusing, but I think most people don't think too much on fighting in the "matrix" or not. I mean, if you hack a node 100km away or 10m away it doesen't matter if there is matrix connection in the former, or good enough signal strenght in the latter.

And when it says your matrix condition monitor fills up you're dumped from whatever node you were in (and may suffer dumpshock). I've always interpreted it as your commlink crashing as well, and used the reboot time for the time needed to get back online to hack again. Maybe a houserule, but I think it works and it makes Attack programs somewhat useful for an IC even against human opponents.


You're not dumped from the node. You are dumped /from the Matrix/. Capital letter and all.

They also have rules for crashing your programs and OS (causing a reboot), but as two different tests. Suggesting that your Node is crashed because your persona is crashed means that you could no longer walk if you had cyberlimbs! Or...See if you have cyber eyes?! Those are nodes on your PAN! Your car crashes if you were controlling it in another window, your toast will burn if you were monitoring that...

Good lord, if we follow the logic that your commlink crashes when your persona crashes, what if I go around killing the persona's of doctors doing surgery? Poor bastard on the table that's getting his fresh bone lacing now has uncontrolled Nanites for no less than 3 seconds (1 Combat Pass=System 1) up to as much as 15 seconds (R5 Commlink).

That just doesn't fly, sorry.
GryMor
QUOTE (Seven-7)

Are you suggesting you can't initiate Cybercombat without being connected to a world wide network?


No, he is saying you can't initiate cybercombat with anyone/thing who isn't sharing a node with you.

QUOTE

Here's the problem with that bit on being crashed from a node and all other nodes disconnecting you: Why?


You have a 'presence' on each node you are interacting with as more than a router/link to other nodes. That presence, by nature, is tied into your root presence on your primary access point (if it wasn't, you wouldn't be connected to it, and it wouldn't be particularly usefull). The sum of all these presences is your persona. Your 'presence' on a node can be attacked directly, by evicting you from the node or disconnecting you from the node. In the alternative, your presence on a node can be used as a vulnerability by which to attack your persona as a whole by feeding it harmful information, that it dutifully transmits back to your root presence (and if your unlucky, back to your brain).

You cannot access information without being vulnerable to that information, the best you can do is to try and filter and translate it.

Like the browser vulnerabilities of today, your persona
DireRadiant
What happens to Dumpshocks presence on all of our browsers when only the DS website on the dumpshock server server goes down? (The server is up serving other web sites, just not DS)
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Seven-7)
QUOTE
I agree that the terms can be vague or confusing, but I think most people don't think too much on fighting in the "matrix" or not. I mean, if you hack a node 100km away or 10m away it doesen't matter if there is matrix connection in the former, or good enough signal strenght in the latter.

And when it says your matrix condition monitor fills up you're dumped from whatever node you were in (and may suffer dumpshock). I've always interpreted it as your commlink crashing as well, and used the reboot time for the time needed to get back online to hack again. Maybe a houserule, but I think it works and it makes Attack programs somewhat useful for an IC even against human opponents.


You're not dumped from the node. You are dumped /from the Matrix/. Capital letter and all.

They also have rules for crashing your programs and OS (causing a reboot), but as two different tests. Suggesting that your Node is crashed because your persona is crashed means that you could no longer walk if you had cyberlimbs! Or...See if you have cyber eyes?! Those are nodes on your PAN! Your car crashes if you were controlling it in another window, your toast will burn if you were monitoring that...

Good lord, if we follow the logic that your commlink crashes when your persona crashes, what if I go around killing the persona's of doctors doing surgery? Poor bastard on the table that's getting his fresh bone lacing now has uncontrolled Nanites for no less than 3 seconds (1 Combat Pass=System 1) up to as much as 15 seconds (R5 Commlink).

That just doesn't fly, sorry.

Yes well that's what it says. But as you said, that's stupid.

As for the consequence, I don't think you need a commlink at all to use cyberlegs, at least nothing in the book says you need a commlink to use cyberware at all (well except the implanted commkink of course). Even if you had your cyberlimb(S) as part of your PAN, having your commlink crash doesen't mean everything linked to it shuts down... if my PC crashes then my friend on the LAN doesen't suddenly freeze either.

That said, you CAN go around hacking nodes and causing the kind of mayhem you talked about, and I expect data security must be high indeed in a hopsital especially the doctors equipment. If you hack the car you can make it crash though, but not if you crash the users commlink by attacking his icon.

I know this isn't RAW, but why wouldn't this house rule work?

In any case, if attacking your icon only means you can be disconnected for a second before logging on again its not much of an attack, is it? And what's the point of medic programs if you can just reconnect instantly fully healed?
GryMor
QUOTE (Seven-7)

You're not dumped from the node. You are dumped /from the Matrix/. Capital letter and all.

They also have rules for crashing your programs and OS (causing a reboot), but as two different tests. Suggesting that your Node is crashed because your persona is crashed means that you could no longer walk if you had cyberlimbs! Or...See if you have cyber eyes?! Those are nodes on your PAN! Your car crashes if you were controlling it in another window, your toast will burn if you were monitoring that...

Good lord, if we follow the logic that your commlink crashes when your persona crashes,  what if I go around killing the persona's of doctors doing surgery? Poor bastard on the table that's getting his fresh bone lacing now has uncontrolled Nanites for no less than 3 seconds (1 Combat Pass=System 1) up to as much as 15 seconds (R5 Commlink).

That just doesn't fly, sorry.


As far as I can tell, getting dumped disconnects YOU (by means of your persona program crashing, hard, or attempting to protect you from worse fates) from your primary access point and terminates all of your active sessions. This doesn't do a damned thing to your comm link, it just means you have been forcibly logged off and need to log back in, and potentially, recreate and active sessions you had.

This doesn't much matter to your cyberware, since the majority of cybers controls and data inputs are via DNI. Though they are capable of being tied into your commlink, there is no requirement for them to be so connected (with the exception of some diagnostic functions or when you need to do external data processing such as with a sim module). Your arms and legs still move, as they are tied into your central nervous system (at the stumps), and you can still see (albeit, potentially, without some of your overlays that were coming from your commlink) as your cybereyes are tied directly into your optic nerves.

But yes, it's going to suck for someone rigging something, but then, to even attack them, you need to be sharing a node with them, so, whats your doctor doing on much of any node besides the medkit? Additionally, if your in danger of being a target, you might want to suggest to him that he hardlines into the medical bay and nannite control system.

Lets take a current day example. Lets say I'm running windows XP and have 5 ssh sessions going to other, remote boxs. Lets also say that there is a bug in XP where it will log me out of my machine if a certain pattern a pixels goes to my display driver (or in the alternative, will give me horrid headaches if I see it, and cause XP to log me out in order to protect me). Now, on one of the systems I'm relaying through, the sysadmin gets annoyed at me. Worst thing he can do is kill that connection, as though he has access to the connection, it's encrypted and though he can garble it, he can't actually control what goes in it. However, he sees where I'm connected to, hacks into that system, and injects some control characters into my tty on the end point, where I was happily reading email, those control characters, when they reach my ssh client, change it's character map and cause the offensive pixel sequence to be displayed. At this point, xp logs me off, dropping my 5 ssh sessions on the floor, and possibly dropping me on the floor along with them.

Matrix combat is an attack on the human machine interface.

Your persona is the gestalt of your sensory input, control mechanisms and the systems that directly generate and receive them.
Seven-7
[QUOTE]No, he is saying you can't initiate cybercombat with anyone/thing who isn't sharing a node with you.[\QUOTE]

Even if this was true, which I'm sure it's not as when I hack-on-the-fly to someones network-- get an unauthorized account I can still beat the living crap out of them, lets put the same situation on an authorized account, security account or Admin account. Same thing happens if I loose, I loose connection to everything.


[QUOTE]You cannot access information without being vulnerable to that information, the best you can do is to try and filter and translate it.[\QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Like the browser vulnerabilities of today, your persona [\QUOTE]

Lets not get into 'This is the matrix version, this is the real world version', because if I telnet a server, logon, telnet another server logon, and am booted off one I most certainly dont have to reboot, or reset my server, or my computer...ect. It wont work, the two technologies don't match wink.gif



[QUOTE]Yes well that's what it says. But as you said, that's stupid.

As for the consequence, I don't think you need a commlink at all to use cyberlegs, at least nothing in the book says you need a commlink to use cyberware at all (well except the implanted commkink of course). [\QUOTE]

You're completely right here, that was a big mixup, I apologize.

[QUOTE]Even if you had your cyberlimb(S) as part of your PAN, having your commlink crash doesen't mean everything linked to it shuts down... if my PC crashes then my friend on the LAN doesen't suddenly freeze either.

I know this isn't RAW, but why wouldn't this house rule work?[\QUOTE]

Crashing a commlink means it no longer sends signals, meaning you cant give it orders.


-SNIP-


[QUOTE]In any case, if attacking your icon only means you can be disconnected for a second before logging on again its not much of an attack, is it? And what's the point of medic programs if you can just reconnect instantly fully healed?[\QUOTE]

This would me we have a problem with the rules, eh?
NightRain
QUOTE (Seven-7)
Are you suggesting you can't initiate Cybercombat without being connected to a world wide network?

One of the combatants has to be connected to a network yes. You're either fighting in the node for your commlink, the node for his commlink, or you're both in in the node of the guy in the middle. Either way, one or both of you have to be connected via a network

QUOTE
Here's the problem with that bit on being crashed from a node and all other nodes disconnecting you: Why? Why would the representation of my stats, not the programs themselves or the OS, because they dont ever leave your commlink, but just the representation, on Sam's commlink, disconnect me from say...Sally's way in Idaho?


Because the rules say so? You could invent a thousand different behind the scenes bits of fluff to validate why it works this way, but given how far removed this aspect is from our current technology, it would just be an invention designed to validate an existing premise.

If you wanted to be nasty, you could say it doesn't disconnect you, but leaves your crashed representation hanging around in the nodes you were active in, in turn letting you be traced. That would be house rule territory though, but it probably makes more sense from a "realistic" viewpoint


QUOTE
There are also no rules, that I know of, for restarting your Persona. Your OS? Yes, your Programs? Yes, but not your Persona. Or for that matter, crashing a persona without cybercombat


Nope, you're right. To the best of my knowledge though, the only way to do it is reboot your commlink, otherwise your crashed persona effectively stops you from doing anything. It's crashed, so you can't heal it, you can't load or unload programs etc. My understanding of this situation is that you're locked out of interacting with your commlink/PAN at this point, though it keeps functioning in other ways (ie, your smartlink doesn't stop working). I guess if you left it long enough though, someone else could log in to your commlink and heal your persona without you having to reboot it.
GryMor
QUOTE (Seven-7)

Even if this was true, which I'm sure it's not as when I hack-on-the-fly to someones network-- get an unauthorized account I can still beat the living crap out of them, lets put the same situation on an authorized account, security account or Admin account. Same thing happens if I loose, I loose connection to everything.


You can not attack someone you aren't sharing a node with, period. Cybercombat doesn't happen on a network, it happens on individual nodes. Networks are just one of the mechanisms that you can use to get to a particular node. There is nothing stopping two people from DNIing via hardlines into one commlink with it's wireless capability turned off.

QUOTE

Lets not get into 'This is the matrix version, this is the real world version', because if I telnet a server, logon, telnet another server logon, and am booted off one I most certainly dont have to reboot, or reset my server, or my computer...ect. It wont work, the two technologies don't match wink.gif


First, I assert that if you are telneting into one host, and from that host, telneting to another, then you are vulnerable on both hosts, to other users injecting data into your connection, and exploiting vulnerabilities in YOUR HMI software to crash you out of the system you are initially telneting from.

However, if you don't want to get into current tech, and how, by analogy it can be demonstrated that the rules are potentially reasonable, I'm not sure on what basis you can claim that they are unreasonable, in a 'realism' sense.

QUOTE

QUOTE
In any case, if attacking your icon only means you can be disconnected for a second before logging on again its not much of an attack, is it? And what's the point of medic programs if you can just reconnect instantly fully healed?


This would me we have a problem with the rules, eh?


If you aren't conencting via a DNI, then about all it does is set you back to where you were before you initially connected to your commlink. If you weren't actively doing anything beyond your own commlink, it's just a minor annoyance. However, if you had active sessions open to a bunch of other nodes, then it's set you back quite a bit, as you have to take the time to reestablish those sessions (if you still want them), and things left uncontrolled (like say, your drones), may be vulnerable to being hijacked while your away.

Why would you expect it to result in anything more than this?
Seven-7
NightRain's post nearly makes my argument for me. I was not looking for realism, nor answers to questions that can only be answered with theme.

I am suggesting that perhaps the word and usage of Matrix is antiquated and *dead*. Shit just doesn't work anymore if you use the word. By definition and logic even if my Condition Bar is full after some hefty Cybercombat I am not disconnected from that node, but the Matrix.

(Matrix)
|
(You)---(Bob)

Before Combat!

(Matrix)
x
(You)---(Bob)

After Combat?


Even if you assumed that if your persona crashes in cybercombat means that your Commlink crashes, as some think, that means the Program and OS crash tests are a waste of time. Why not do both?
Seven-7
GryMor: You can not attack someone you aren't sharing a node with, period. Cybercombat doesn't happen on a network, it happens on individual nodes. Networks are just one of the mechanisms that you can use to get to a particular node. There is nothing stopping two people from DNIing via hardlines into one commlink with it's wireless capability turned off.

Me: lets put the same situation on an authorized account, security account or Admin account. Same thing happens if I loose, I loose connection to everything.
NightRain
QUOTE (Seven-7)
I am suggesting that perhaps the word and usage of Matrix is antiquated and *dead*.

"The Matrix" is anything you can connect to (or through) outside of you own commlink/PAN and its subscribed devices. The matrix is a combination of mesh networks, and hardwired lines linked to said mesh networks.

The main difference however is that unlike in previous versions, your persona can't stand "in the matrix" and look around. It can only be active within a node. The matrix still exists in the background though, shuffling the data around. It just doesn't have a node you can stand in.

QUOTE
Shit just doesn't work anymore if you use the word. By definition and logic even if my Condition Bar is full after some hefty Cybercombat I am not disconnected from that node, but the Matrix.


Your persona crashes, which means you lose the ability to make new connections and any existing connections are terminated. The reason the word "matrix" is used, is because any connection your commlink makes to another node is done "over the matrix" whether you're hacking someone elses commlink through a datajack, using a wireless connection bounced through a streetlight, or it's two guys standing in a forest

QUOTE
Even if you assumed that if your persona crashes in cybercombat means that your Commlink crashes, as some think, that means the Program and OS crash tests are a waste of time. Why not do both?


Even if you equate crashing a persona with crashing the node the persona is running from, not all nodes will have personas to crash, so crashing the node is your only option in cases like this. It's fine if you're talking about a hacker and his commlink, but if you're in a node running IC, there is no hacker with his persona program to crash.

Personally though, I don't like the "persona crash = node crash" approach. I rather more see it as a lock up of the OS GUI/Shell. It is still running and doing it's automatic things, you just can't interact with it directly anymore. You need to fix it or restart the OS (when it's convenient for you, not as an automatic consequence of the persona crashing).
GryMor
You are distinct entity from your commlink, that is, your commlink is a node, your persona isn't. I'm presuming the (you) in your diagram is your commlink, as otherwise the connection to (bob) doesn't make sense.

Connections/sessions are directional, so I'm going to presume that the connections/sessions listed were initiated by the persona accsessing through the (you) commlink.

Finally, your commlink is PART of the matrix, that is, it is a node within which matrix actions can be taken.

So the REAL diagram is:
CODE

Only showing MY connections (Bob could be logged into my commlink, as could others), and hence, only indicating the scope of my own persona:

    Me
 |*HMI*|
(my commlink) ---> {'Matrix'}
  |  
 \|/
(bob's commlink)
 |*HMI*|
   Bob

If then, my persona gets taken out:

    Me
 |*XXX*|
(my commlink)      {'Matrix'}
     
     
(bob's commlink)
 |*HMI*|
   Bob

I'm knocked out, my commlink is fine, bob's commlink is fine, but all MY sessions are dead. Depending on the precise nature of my HMI, reestablishing my persona could be as easy as logging back in or as hard as reincarnating because I had a DNI with hotsim and died of dumpshock.


As to the account question, I'm not sure how accounts come into this, beyond whatever limits the node you are fighting in places on your actions at your account level.
Seven-7
Matrix[/b—The worldwide telecommunications network.
[b]Personal Area Network (PAN)
—The network created by all of the wirelessly-linked electronic devices carried on (or within) a person. The commlink is usually the primary hub of this network.


The problem being here, Night and Gry, is that you, bob and sally all strung together in the woods, are not by definition connected or on The Matrix.

Your diagram does not make sense, as your commlink /doesnt/ have to be connected to the Matrix, by it's definition, to connect to other people.

But if you /were/ connected, on another screen, why does your Persona getting knocked out on his node in any way affect your connection to a different node, as suggested by the 'I got knocked out' paragraph?
Riley37
So 7-7, if you've found a problem, do you have a solution, or parameters of what you would call a useful solution?

Or do you just want to point out that RAW on Matrix operations, including cybercombat, is a mishmash, as if involving multiple writers and editors with conflicting or unclear assumptions? If so... you were far from the first, but here's a biscuit anyways.

If you want to know what the Matrix is, I'd say there's a specific large set of nodes, running on various machines from personal comlinks to office computers to Response 20+ corporate mainframe megacomputers, which have so many connections between them, some wired and some transmitted, that access to any one of them could eventually lead to access to any other with the appropriate permissions (which are rarely granted in actual use). Most people who want access connect to a portal node, which are common in urban areas, and their connection then extends from there, to other parts of that matrix, which most people find rather useful for looking up data and sending messages. Because most hacking happens on that Matrix, the rules present that as the default case. Much in the same way that the rules on physical combat assume that combat occurs between organisms with two arms; if you happen to be running a campaign in which the PCs are gene-tweaked elephants wielding weapons with their trunks, then the two-gun rules (BBB p. 141) are going to match your game less well.
If you and a friend connect your commlinks while on Pluto, then you in effect have a separate "mini-Matrix" or intranet consisting of those two nodes, not connected to anyone else. If you deny him access and he tries to send signals to confuse your comlink, then you use the exact same rules as for Matrix combat, *but the Matrix itself is unaffected*.
Mercy Hospital has its own internal "mini-Matrix" or intranet, which is not connected to the main Matrix. If you got onto one part of it, say the registration station at the ER entrance, and could follow connections over to the surgeon's workstation (which gives her realtime AR displays of the patient's vital signs, and also a connection to the patient's history and symptom descriptions which were entered at the ER intake station), then you use the same rules as for Matrix combat, although the only connections involved, and thus closable in this encounter, are connections within the Mercy Hospital intranet, or between that intranet and something else (eg if the hospital director's commlink sends a ping and gets access, or your commlink sends an identical spoofed ping and gets access).

I'm gonna call that simple and workable. If it doesn't satisfy you, then what would?
Seven-7
My solution was presented already: Chuck the word Matrix, it solves most if not every problem with wording, it leaves confusion at the door. It's the same problem with SR3 Matrix, where you could not hack a laptop because it wasn't a mainframe and thusly had no Subsystems, and thusly no TN to run your System Operation off of...

If you're going to be ambiguous about computers, which they try to be, drop this Matrix crap, or at least call everything the Matrix and define it as 'computer shit'.

Unwired is in Dev, we know this. Matrix for SR3 did a wonderful thing: It cleared up and corrected a lot of shit without retroactively changing things (For the most part).

For the most part, this is a post of annoyance and probably could be ignored, until you get to the fact that you, by the book, cant die if you just connect to someones node from yours to theirs.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Seven-7)
SNIP

Even if you assumed that if your persona crashes in cybercombat means that your Commlink crashes, as some think, that means the Program and OS crash tests are a waste of time. Why not do both?

Thanks for pointing this out. Crashing OS is not a waste of time, its' an extended test against a threshold which means that if you have as many dice as the target has firewall+system you will almost automatically win.

Attacking an icon however means the target will resist you and fight back, which is often alot more dangerous. I can't see why you'd bother to fight cybercombat instead of just attacking a hacker's OS with the normal rules.

What I don't really understand though is what you have to do to even try to hack an OS - is it enough to detect an icon with a matrix perception test? Do you need to trace the icon?

Or do you need to be logged into a node by some account? If you try to crash a node instead of hacking it, it says it automatically gets an alert against you, but can it still terminate the connection? If so, do you oppose it with Hacking only (legitimate account) or hacking+exploit? (hacked in with exploit program) The reason I ask is that neither actually applies in this case, you're just subscribed to the node in question without being logged in at all.

Suddenly I'm confused again... usually happens when I start reading the Matrix rules.

QUOTE (Nightrain)

Personally though, I don't like the "persona crash = node crash" approach. I rather more see it as a lock up of the OS GUI/Shell. It is still running and doing it's automatic things, you just can't interact with it directly anymore. You need to fix it or restart the OS (when it's convenient for you, not as an automatic consequence of the persona crashing).


Ok, so it's still running you just can't do anything more with it? Hmm, I think I like this approach as it means a hacker will have to reboot in order to do anything, right? Or can you fix your icon through using a medic program? Note that healing from 10 wounds will take as long as rebooting, (which also doesen't require an expensive hacker program), but if you need to heal more than 10 damage you're even slower than rebooting.

Note that there are rules for rebooting personas, which takes just as long time as rebooting a node.
NightRain
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
Ok, so it's still running you just can't do anything more with it? Hmm, I think I like this approach as it means a hacker will have to reboot in order to do anything, right? Or can you fix your icon through using a medic program?

Well you can't, as you don't have a persona to load the medic program in to. A friendly hacker however could run medic on you, or (to open another can of worms) an agent already running on your commlink with standing orders to run medic on you may be able to get your persona back up and running (of course, one could argue that if your persona is down, the agents running on your commlink go down as well)
GryMor
The Matrix is any set of nodes that you can take matrix actions while in, it is also the system of protocols and software that allow you to take matrix actions.

If you are in the woods, hard wired and logged in to a single commlink that doesn't even have wireless and is in no way connected to anything but you, via your datajack, trode net or other HMI device, you are STILL in the Matrix, just, a very very small island, currently disconnected from everything else.

If there is some IC on your single node island, and said IC decides to attack your persona (you are sharing a node after all, and if it just takes you out, it's become master of it's own universe), then, when it blows away your persona YOU (your persona, your HMI, and possibly your grey matter) crash out of the Matrix, your session with the commlink dies, and maybe you die along with it. The commlink keeps humming along (maybe a bit happier now that your persona and it's software isn't chewing up any cycles), the IC waits for you to reconnect and you are all alone, out in meatspace with a crashed interface connected to a toasted (or gone) persona software.

edit:
One thing to note though, not every device that can be connected to the matrix is, itself, a node. You can, in the complete absence of a commlink, be hardwired into a device, with no persona and no node. A medkit for instance, doesn't run the matrix protocols, it's just a device with a 'simple' interface, that could be subscribed to a commlink (and thus available via the ubiquotouse wireless mesh network), but you can't engage in matrix combat on it, in fact, you can't even BE on it. Doesn't stop you from hacking it, but it does mean your software is irelevent, what with no where to run it.
Riley37
A very shaky analogy based on avatars in multiplayer online games:

Usually, if you see an avatar on your screen's display, there's another player somewhere, and their computer is running the game program and is in connnection with the server.

Sometimes there's no player at the keyboard, and the avatar is immobile. You can still interact with that avatar, eg have your avatar kill it and take its weapons (or flag or whatever). In SR, the equivalent is: they are logged in, but not actually in control of their persona, perhaps because they're taking a Blackout nap, or they're awake but their comlink's avatar-controlling program has crashed. You can, with the right utilities and permissions, treat their avatar as an ARO, which will list their in-game username, and perhaps trace the avatar's connection back to the Matrix ID of their computer or comlink, and maybe even deduce its physical address. (eg their comlink connected to the South Fork Public Library, which connected them to South Fork Main NeoNet Portal, which connected them to the Ares Miracle Shooter server... well, if you have a friend who can get to the South Fork Public Library, have them scan the area for connections!)

Sometimes there's not even a working computer running the avatar anymore, but the server still displays the avatar. In that case, you can do whatever you want to the avatar without getting resistance, but the only data you can get is any data remaining "resident" in the avatar... probably just the username, but perhaps more if they decided to list, say, an age, gender, metatype and dating preference on their avatar. (whether you BELIEVE that they are really "F 21 ELF, ISO 3WAY" is up to you.)
TonkaTuff
QUOTE
For the most part, this is a post of annoyance and probably could be ignored, until you get to the fact that you, by the book, cant die if you just connect to someones node from yours to theirs.


It's not really so much a "fact" as a potential argument based off of an overly literal-minded, context-free reading of the text (as many of the 'problems' with this or that subset of rules usually turns out to be). Taking that reading to a logical extreme, a persona active on a three commlink LAN (as described in the first post) can't have a 'Matrix Condition Monitor' (or Matrix Attributes) - or for that matter, a persona can't be active on a LAN in the first place because the definition also used the proper noun Matrix. I believe the common solution for this sort of thing is the liberal application of blunt, preferably heavy, objects about the rules-lawyer's cranium until their 'confusion' goes away.

I dunno, I guess I just have trouble seeing the ambiguity you're talking about. They do freely use the term 'matrix' (even capital 'm' Matrix) in place of the more generic (if not more technically-accurate) term 'network' throughout the entire 'Wireless World' chapter (if not all of the printed 4th edition materials). But in all likelihood, it's because 'matrix' is and has been synonymous with 'network' since first edition. It's a commonly used and understood usage of the terms, both in-game and (I'd be willing to bet) among the vast majority of readers. In fact, when read in context (rather than cited alone with a few hand-picked definitions), it's fairly clear that that's what's going on. Judging by the lack of 'hear-hear!' posts or similar previous threads, it seems safe to say that most readers understand it that way.
Blade
There sure is an ambiguity that should be lifted with the Matrix word : does it mean Network (in which case it can be a PAN, ad-hoc WLAN network, a building's LAN, or the world wide WAN) or is it just the name of the world wide WAN ?

But the whole "you're disconnected of the Matrix" you're arguing about here is merely nitpicking. It just means that when you get pwned in cybercombat your persona (which is the same in all nodes you're connected to) is sent back home, hence he's gone from all the nodes you were connected to.
The idea of the rule is clear. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've got the impression that you just brought this up to bash SR4 Matrix (and maybe the whole Matrix concept) (using the Matrix word here as "the whole SR4 computer system").
Ryu
The Matrix was always defined by everything described about its structure.

The way things are, any node might function as relay station and provide a connection between user and target node. We thankfully do not need to learn TCP/IP v2070.

"The Matrix" could be replaced by "The wireless world" any time.


If a persona crashes, your browser is dead but the PC is running. This is a prime advantage over crashing the OS if the attacker is already on your PAN. Crashing the OS would deny access to your devices and data.
If someone wants to kill you, he´ll possibly want to crash your biofeedback-filter first. (You better hope. Some will not need to care.)
hobgoblin
my take:

when you crash the persona you crash the comlink. so what happens to the pan?

well i would think that most of the devices would go into some kind of standby mode, awaiting the reboot of the comlink.

and yes, that means that hacking some jokers comlink and crashing the os will have just the same effect (imo the persona is a extension of the os into the node your on). but doing so would make you the target for any ice he happens to be running (and may well take just as long or longer then just hitting him enough times with the attack program). may as well smack him with a attack program from the current node. hell, if he is hacking your node, you can get the local ice to help out in slapping him silly wink.gif

and i see the misunderstanding that you need a comlink to have basic control of cyberlimbs are still alive and kicking. and i loved that example of a surgeon getting crashed while doing his job. thats exactly why the surgeon would have the surgery covered in blocking paint or wallpaper, and not open any kind of outside connection while working.
Prime Mover
Matrix- Sort of a left over term from the past like calling a corporate nodes agents IC. I Assume it to mean anytime your interacting with another node.

Persona- I've always seen the Persona as more then just a visual icon, it's also the software that has the cabability to interpret both hot and cold sim signals. Hell I've had my browser lock up and have to restart my whole comp even though it did'nt freeze up other software. Maybe its a safety feature, with no "icon" software running leaves you vulnerable so system removes itself from transmission? (This is really just a conceptual issue.)

Commlink- No you don't need A RTG,LTG,PLTG, etc... But they still serve a purpose.

exampe: Bob is sitting in a ravine he "hops" his signal to a node down the road the only one in range a cafe,then a nearby house,a ranchers comm, sleeping trucker, homer simpson,someones blender, etc... Until you reach the node your seeking. Fine until Homer logs off then every connection past him is gone. So an RTG and others still serve a purpose paticularly for those who don't want to go around hacking.

Now back to persona problem. Even if you consider you icon just a visual rep and not a more sophisticated software package. Theres more then one way to approach the loss of connection. A safety feature ( that can be disabled), a lock of the OS not a crash just a "timeout", a sophisticated effect of the attack program, add your own concepts here ( ).

Just boils down to the flavor you want for you game or if you want to change cannon material in a home game. Obviously it's well past time to go back and rewrite 4th edtion. So it's best to do what gamers have down for many decades now. Use your imagination!
Kerris
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
I've always interpreted it as your commlink crashing as well, and used the reboot time for the time needed to get back online to hack again. Maybe a houserule, but I think it works and it makes Attack programs somewhat useful for an IC even against human opponents.

There's a very good reason for interpreting it as restarting the commlink OS; The Matrix Condition Monitor is based on System. System comes from the OS.
Cheops
Okay, here's my take:

Matrix refers to the world wide interconnection of nodes in a mesh network. If three of you are standing in the woods without Signal range to the mesh network then you have just formed a PLTG. If you are all connected to each other and also connected to the Matrix you have just formed an PLTG with a SAN to the Matrix. There are still LTGs and RTGs but they don't serve as many purposes as before. They are almost purely directory services now unless the provider puts other bells and whistles on it that you want to use.

eg. in my game SeaSource = Seattle LTG. It is the directory for Seattle but it also has other neat functions (reviews of restaurants, listing of events around town, personal networking like facebook, etc).

When you turn on your commlink you start at your commlink. When you start a Matrix session you start with whatever, non-PAN node, you first Access. So if I log on (Complex Action) to SeaSource I am now on the Matrix with Access to SeaSource. If I decide that I want to log on to ShadowSea (complex action) but in a different session I now have 2 sessions and I am connected to the Matrix. I run a couple of Data Searches on SeaSource and ShadowSea and discover that Joe Wageslave that has the passcode I want is into Urban Brawl and posts on a particular Urban Brawl forum in Seattle. I start a 3rd session (Log onto node Complex action) and have 3 sessions and a connection to the Matrix. I talk him into giving me his passcode and log off (complex action) the Urban Brawl forum. I now have 2 sessions and a Matrix Connection.

Now I log on (complex action) to the Corp Site and give it my Passcode. I now have 3 sessions and a Matrix connection. The Spider discovers that something isn't right and attacks me. I am getting my ass handed to me so I have two options:

Jack Out--Free Action, my Persona is disconnected from me, helpless but still accessing those 3 nodes. Eventually my connections will time out and I will be booted out of those nodes. Once I am booted out of all 3 I lose my Matrix connection.

Suck It--no action stand there and take it like a man, I am dumped and lose connection to my Persona as well as access to those 3 nodes and my Matrix connection

Those two options are very similar. Jacking out severs my connection to my Persona and my Persona being crashed also severs my connection to my persona. In the former case I am still accessing all those nodes in the later I automatically lose my access. So let's see what happens next:

Jacked out and Log On again: I log back onto my commlink (complex action) and automatically have access to those nodes. I am in the Corp Node and the Spider can start pounding on me again right away! Not only that but he also had that 1 IP to continue Tracking me. Worried, I Log Off from the Corp Node (complex action). Of course by now he could have told his Agents to Analyze me, follow me to my Public Nodes, and they are now panel beating me in two other nodes. I take 2 complex actions to log off the other nodes and I am now only logged on to my commlink.

Dumped and Log On again: I log back onto my commlink (complex action) and have no connection to anything. I log back onto SeaSource and ShadowSea (2 complex actions). If I want I can log onto the Corp Node again but that'd just be silly. However, the Spider is probably still tracking me and will catch up to me eventually.

The two situations are almost exactly the same in my view so I'd consider being Dumped being an Involuntary Jack Out.

Note that Black Attack Programs are EXACTLY the same as Jacking Out! You lose the connection to your Persona and can no longed take actions but you are still connected to all the nodes you had access to! So:

Dumped by Attack = Jack Out with Severed Connections
Dumped by Black Attack = Jacked Out

Last point. If your Commlink is not crashed, just your Persona, and you are still in broadcast range of ANYTHING connected to the Matrix--YOU ARE STILL ON THE MATRIX!!!!!! This would even apply to the case of the 3 of you in the woods. You have lost access to the other two nodes but they still have YOU on their Subscription List. They can still track you or follow you back to your commlink and do stuff there. You'd have to take the meatbody action of turning off the wireless button on your commlink's physical case (making your Signal = NA). If you aren't within 10m of hostile nodes (either physically or by leap frogging) you could just limit signal to 0 and still have access to your wireless PAN.

If you are broadcasting you have access to all wireless devices on your PAN as well as all of those with skinlink and DNI. If you are not broadcasting you only have access to your skinlinks and DNI.
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