I'm reading the Visibility Modifier rules (SR3 p. 111-112, and MM p. 49) and am having trouble agreeing with one of the rules. I'll describe what I'm thinking, and you tell me if it makes sense to you. Here's the rule in question:
Full Version: Thermal Smoke Visibility Modifier
| QUOTE (Man and Machine page 49) |
| A character with more than one vision system in use at once receives the lowest modifiers applicable to his vision. |
This makes sense when the character is having trouble seeing something due to lack of light. E.g. In full darkness with Natural Lowlight and Cybered Thermo, the Cybered Thermo has the lowest modifier in the table and is therefore the modifier to use.
This doesn't make sense when one of the multiple vision techniques is picking up too much light and is interfering with vision. For example, Glare normally gives a +2 penalty but Cybered Lowlight and Cybered Thermo amplify Glare to give a +4 penalty. I think that an Elf with Natural Lowlight and Cybered Thermo should have the penalty of the Cybered Thermo when faced with Glare, until he turns off his Cybered Thermo, but the book rules wouldn't apply the higher penalty.
Similarly I think that a Troll with Natural Thermo and Cybered Lowlight should have the +6 penalty to Thermal Smoke because his eyes are picking up way too much. But according to the book we would use the smaller penalty (+4), the one for the Cybered Lowlight. This doesn't seem right to me.
What do you think?
flash and glare modifiers apply even if you switch off the affected vision system. as for thermal smoke, that's like saying that because you're standing next to a jet engine and unable to hear anything, you should also be unable to see. just because you're unable to differentiate body heat from the surrounding temperature doesn't mean the visual-light-sensitive portions of your eyes are somehow being 'overloaded'.
My counted on it is that if it's cybered then you can turn it off, thus drop to the better modfier. However if it's a natrual vision giving you the problems, tough your suck with it.
[ Spoiler ]
mfb, are you saying that a Troll, who we could consider to have both "Natural Vision" and "Thermo Vision", should be able to use whichever of these two visions give him the best Target Number?
Shockwave, that seems quite reasonable.
Shockwave, that seems quite reasonable.
A troll shouldn't be able to, because he has the natural thermographic perception -- he can't turn that off.
yes, ourteam, that's exactly what i'm saying--only partly because that's what the rules say. consider it this way, as well: metahumans pay for their abilities with a loss of karma pool. turning those abilities into disadvantages is incredibly unfair.
and no one yet has explained why everything being roughly the same temperature would affect a troll's ability to see in the visual light spectrum. that makes absolutely no sense.
and no one yet has explained why everything being roughly the same temperature would affect a troll's ability to see in the visual light spectrum. that makes absolutely no sense.
I think OurTeam has a good perspective on this. If someone is being blinded by one of their multiple visual senses that cannot by turned off, then it should in some way impare them. Lucky for players this applies to opposition as well. Fortunately for players who do have cybered visual enhancements, if something is being overloaded, there is the glorious free action available on everybody's turn that one can take to deactivate that cyberware.
I wouldn't go as far as comparing this to a deafening jet engine imparing your sight, since the senses described above are all based on visual perception only. Bioware heat sensing organs might overload senses in the same way however, even though they are not part of the eyes.
I wouldn't go as far as comparing this to a deafening jet engine imparing your sight, since the senses described above are all based on visual perception only. Bioware heat sensing organs might overload senses in the same way however, even though they are not part of the eyes.
Turning them into disadvantages grin
They have attribute bonuses also that give them advantage over humanity. But the deal behind the senses is that a cybered sense provides less help to its owner than a natural sense, providing the one bonus that it can be deactivated on a free action. I cannot deactivate my natural hearing anymore than a cobra can stop using its natural heat sensing organs on a wim.
Metahumanity gets the lower penalties because of their natural senses, but because their natural they cannot take a free action to deactivate them. Then again, that would apply mostly if you are playing this game in a reality type of setting.
They have attribute bonuses also that give them advantage over humanity. But the deal behind the senses is that a cybered sense provides less help to its owner than a natural sense, providing the one bonus that it can be deactivated on a free action. I cannot deactivate my natural hearing anymore than a cobra can stop using its natural heat sensing organs on a wim.
Metahumanity gets the lower penalties because of their natural senses, but because their natural they cannot take a free action to deactivate them. Then again, that would apply mostly if you are playing this game in a reality type of setting.
*snort* those attribute bonuses don't mean diddly. twice the karma pool is a massively more useful racial trait than anything that any of the other races can offer. not to mention the lower point cost of being human.
and, artemis, you're mistaken. if a visual sense is being 'overloaded'--through either glare or flash--then that glare or flash mod continues to apply, even after you've switched the affected visual system off.
why should not being able to see in the infrared affect your ability to see in the visual light spectrum? please, please explain this to me. thermal smoke doesn't induce glare, it doesn't induce flash. all it does is warm up the surrounding air a bit. i mean, come on--if you drop your troll in the middle of the tropics, are you going to say it impairs his normal vision? because guess what: it's going to impair his thermal vision, probably by about the same amount as thermal smoke.
and, artemis, you're mistaken. if a visual sense is being 'overloaded'--through either glare or flash--then that glare or flash mod continues to apply, even after you've switched the affected visual system off.
why should not being able to see in the infrared affect your ability to see in the visual light spectrum? please, please explain this to me. thermal smoke doesn't induce glare, it doesn't induce flash. all it does is warm up the surrounding air a bit. i mean, come on--if you drop your troll in the middle of the tropics, are you going to say it impairs his normal vision? because guess what: it's going to impair his thermal vision, probably by about the same amount as thermal smoke.
I know a few Troll playing characters who would disagree with that. Elves make wonderful summoning mages since their charisma is that much higher than a human's maximum. And of course, there are the Gnomes and their eight Willpower. The improvement to maximum racial attribute limits alone makes many metahumanity races very appealing when compared to humanity.
In addition to which, the rule is meant to discourage people from playing metahumans all of the time since humans are still considered to be the most numerous. Which is why it is listed as an optional rule for GMs and groups who wish to push their campaign in that direction.
In addition to which, the rule is meant to discourage people from playing metahumans all of the time since humans are still considered to be the most numerous. Which is why it is listed as an optional rule for GMs and groups who wish to push their campaign in that direction.
humans' faster karma pool progression isn't an optional rule. it's right there in black and white on pg 242 of SR3, and nowhere is it called 'optional'. elves and gnomes and whatnot--a human will whup the snot out of any of those within 50 or so karma, and the gap will only widen as the game goes on. yes, humans are at an initial disadvantage. that disadvantage disappears very, very quickly.
Smirk
I don't see that spot in the rules, but if you have then I'd be curious to know where. It seems logical to me that if someone's thermographic vision were deactivated then they would no longer be blinded or affected by that after that point. (By a purely game mechanical point of view.) If you wanted to, as a GM, you could apply a cool-down period during which the penalty takes a round or two extra to burn off.
The Troll in the jungle may have toruble at first, as any of us taken from a dark and damp placesuch asthe northwest and dropped into a sunny and humid environment like the tropics would have to deal with. But after a while they would adapt and burn off their penalties.
My perception of the thermal smoke grenade is that it is meant to blind those with natural or cyber-enhanced thermographic vision. As if all the red light that I normally see were suddenly amplified a hundred fold for a few seconds. For a Troll I imagine that their natural vision and thermographic vision are somewhat melded, much like a Cyberzombie can see both the normal world and astrally perceive at the same time.
I don't see that spot in the rules, but if you have then I'd be curious to know where. It seems logical to me that if someone's thermographic vision were deactivated then they would no longer be blinded or affected by that after that point. (By a purely game mechanical point of view.) If you wanted to, as a GM, you could apply a cool-down period during which the penalty takes a round or two extra to burn off.
The Troll in the jungle may have toruble at first, as any of us taken from a dark and damp placesuch asthe northwest and dropped into a sunny and humid environment like the tropics would have to deal with. But after a while they would adapt and burn off their penalties.
My perception of the thermal smoke grenade is that it is meant to blind those with natural or cyber-enhanced thermographic vision. As if all the red light that I normally see were suddenly amplified a hundred fold for a few seconds. For a Troll I imagine that their natural vision and thermographic vision are somewhat melded, much like a Cyberzombie can see both the normal world and astrally perceive at the same time.
Ah, I believe I was remembering back to soemthing I read in Second Edition that indicated it was an optional rule, although I might be mistaken. Ultimately it is up to your GM, but in the end it still goes to enforce that humans are the standard and are still more numerous overall than metahumanity variants.
As for the disadvantage overall, there are plenty of ways to get humans to burn off their karma pool if they want to live to fight another day. And not always does a high karma pool mean that someone will survive. Some days luck simply isn't on your side, whether you have 4 karma pool or 16. People with 4 karma pool simply have to play smarter in the end, taking a little more creativity on the part of a player.
As for the disadvantage overall, there are plenty of ways to get humans to burn off their karma pool if they want to live to fight another day. And not always does a high karma pool mean that someone will survive. Some days luck simply isn't on your side, whether you have 4 karma pool or 16. People with 4 karma pool simply have to play smarter in the end, taking a little more creativity on the part of a player.
| QUOTE (Artemis @ Nov 25 2003, 10:29 PM) |
| My perception of the thermal smoke grenade is that it is meant to blind those with natural or cyber-enhanced thermographic vision. As if all the red light that I normally see were suddenly amplified a hundred fold for a few seconds. |
That would be a thermal flash grenade (which is sort of a cool idea), not thermal smoke.
For the flash grenade what you say makes sense, but not for smoke. A more apt analogy for smoke would be that if we put a peice of green plastic in front of your face preventing you from seeing... umm... red? things your vision wouldn't be all that badly hampered with regard to things that are other colors.
I also like the idea that you could turn off cybernetic thermal vision to evade a thermal flash grenade, even after it happens. Though maybe there should be some residual effect. Or maybe you should just buy flare compensation
CC page 49, artemis, under 'multiple vision systems', last sentence.
yes, you can burn a character's karma pool. you can also cause attribute failure in a troll's Strength score, or an elf's Cha, or a gnome's Willpower. you can shoot out a street sam's cybereyes and blind him. you can put a mage through magic loss. you can degrade a rigger's drone network and steal all his drones. none of this changes the fact that humans have the ability to roll more dice than any other metatype. your arguments about 'luck isn't always with you' applies to all characters, artemis--and for those days when the dice are against a player, a human character has a better overall chance of surviving, because he's got more chances to reroll his screw-ups.
yes, you can burn a character's karma pool. you can also cause attribute failure in a troll's Strength score, or an elf's Cha, or a gnome's Willpower. you can shoot out a street sam's cybereyes and blind him. you can put a mage through magic loss. you can degrade a rigger's drone network and steal all his drones. none of this changes the fact that humans have the ability to roll more dice than any other metatype. your arguments about 'luck isn't always with you' applies to all characters, artemis--and for those days when the dice are against a player, a human character has a better overall chance of surviving, because he's got more chances to reroll his screw-ups.
Not a bad idea at all. You're right about the smoke and flash thing, the smoke would linger a lot longer and impare normal vision as well as thermographic. Flare compensation would prove to be the saving factor at the end of all this.
I always wondered— second edition mentioned this, but 3rd edition never promoted the idea of flare compensating sunglasses. Such a bad idea to make sunglasses that are exceptionally good at their originally intended purpose? Supra-polarized Sunglasses. They allow them to supply thermographic or low-light modifications, so why not.
I always wondered— second edition mentioned this, but 3rd edition never promoted the idea of flare compensating sunglasses. Such a bad idea to make sunglasses that are exceptionally good at their originally intended purpose? Supra-polarized Sunglasses. They allow them to supply thermographic or low-light modifications, so why not.
Yes I had a feeling you'd bring that one up. That is applying to multiple Cybered vision “Systems”, if I am not mistaken. To which one can only use one at a time.
Natural vision, like a cat's ability to see with low-light and natural vision are not interchangeable but are instead automatically stacked.
Natural vision, like a cat's ability to see with low-light and natural vision are not interchangeable but are instead automatically stacked.
they're not 'stacked', you take the lowest applicable modifier.
To fit with the rules and their method of applying modifiers to one's abilities and perceptions, but not because it is the only sense operating at that moment. Perhaps because the user is concentrating on the one spectrum of vision more than the others, but not shutting off their other senses entirely in order to do so.
ah. right.
well, like i said--until someone can explain to me why a troll in the tropics should be totally blind, i'm going to continue using the current rules.
well, like i said--until someone can explain to me why a troll in the tropics should be totally blind, i'm going to continue using the current rules.
I would see no reason why he couldn't adjust after aclimatizing. Their eyes adjust to the environment and begin to better pick out the details and such. No reason that couldn't happen within a the first five to ten minutes of their arrival. Usually people won't get thrown straight into a situation like that, but I would think that if the Troll were a trained member of a military unit that commonly dropped into jungle zones and the like, then he or she would have little or no trouble adjusting to the new levels of sensory input. It would be something they are use to and that they are expecting.
For a shadowrun team who operates in the dark and cloudy lands of the northwest greater Seattle Metroplex, a sudden drop in a tropic jungle climate would definitely play havok on their senses.
For a shadowrun team who operates in the dark and cloudy lands of the northwest greater Seattle Metroplex, a sudden drop in a tropic jungle climate would definitely play havok on their senses.
no, artemis. thermographic vision works off of relative values. if the entire area is 98 degrees or so, you're simply not going to be able to pick out a human being's heat signature. what you're saying is that any time there's a hot day, trolls will be blind. that's insane.
If they only had thermographic vision, then I'd agree with your interpretation of what I said. But because they have a combination of natural vision and thermographic, I see them as being able to tune out the general overload of input and recognize beings and targets through their other attributes aside from heat.
In such an environment, where both air, plants, and beings are practically the same heat.. then yes I suppose thermographic vision is not going to give you any help in combat situations that require modifiers. But it won't blind a Troll since they can tune it out after a while, much like the person downstairs with the loud speaker system playing Troll Thrash Metal Band music all night long.
In such an environment, where both air, plants, and beings are practically the same heat.. then yes I suppose thermographic vision is not going to give you any help in combat situations that require modifiers. But it won't blind a Troll since they can tune it out after a while, much like the person downstairs with the loud speaker system playing Troll Thrash Metal Band music all night long.
right, that's exactly what i'm saying. thermographic vision won't help you, in the jungle--but it's not going to blind you, any more than the heat of a thermal smoke grenade is going to blind you (granted that the smoke part of a thermal smoke grenade will).
in short, you take the lowest applicable modifier in any situation.
in short, you take the lowest applicable modifier in any situation.
Well, obviously IR smoke grenades are just a version of smoke grenade used to counter thermographic vision, right? So essentially they'd work by creating a smoke screen and a heat screen, right? It's difficult for normal people to see through it, but its nigh impossible for people with two types of vision being confused. I don't think it's the presence of heat which screws the thermographics, its the fact that there's a screen of heat, not to mention a screen of smoke. This differs from the tropics in the respect that the eyes have a contingency, normal vision, whereas with the IR smoke , it's all being impeded. If that explination doesn't do it for you, just remember that the rules are abstract, and that reality has no place in a role-playing game. 
yes, of course. but what i'm saying is that the heat screen isn't going to impede the normal vision of a character with both thermo and normal vision. the smoke itself will, of course, still impede the character's normal vision.
Yup, pretty much, only a character that can't turn off his thermographic vision, such as a troll or a dwarf who does not benefit from cybereyes, will suffer from the highest applicable penalty. Or at least I'm pretty sure that's the way it goes.
Check out page 49 of Man and Machine.
Check out page 49 of Man and Machine.
yes, i have. it states very specifically that you take the lowest modifier. that's what this thread is about--OurTeam was arguing the logic of that rule.
Hmm, fair enough. I was sure that it said somewhere that trolls and dwarfs have to take the highest modifier for the IR smoke, but I guess until further evidence comes to light, I have to concede that you're correct.
you're probably thinking of the fact that if one vision system takes a glare or flash modifier, the user's vision remains affected even if he switches off the affected system.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| why should not being able to see in the infrared affect your ability to see in the visual light spectrum? please, please explain this to me. |
Lets say that a room is somehow uniformly hot or otherwise blank to thermographic vision (so that we ignore the smoke part). In this case, the troll is lacking a certain color that he can normally see, that being IR.
I think it will be helpful to use an analogy to understand what he sees: If a human looks through red cellophane, they'll lack the ability to distinguish red. They don't get to use Redness to gain information about things beyond the cellophane.
So I think the answer to this question depends on whether or not you feel that being deprived of red is sufficiently annoying or disruptive when shooting at a red and blue target (like the troll shooting a person might see a hot and black target which now looks merely black).
Me, I can't decide.
given that the rule is 'lowest applicable modifier', i'd say the answer is no.
But the question is whether that rule successfully models reality. Don't take that rule as given before deciding.
| QUOTE (Ourteam) |
| mfb, are you saying that a Troll, who we could consider to have both "Natural Vision" and "Thermo Vision", should be able to use whichever of these two visions give him the best Target Number? |
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| yes, ourteam, that's exactly what i'm saying--only partly because that's what the rules say |
Thanks, mfb, because that's my interpretation of using the rules as written, and part of why I have trouble with those rules.
Lets look at Thermo Smoke. Penalty of +4 to Normal Vision (like light smoke), penalty of +4 to Natural Lowlight vision (like light smoke), and a penalty of +6 to Natural Thermo vision. If the rules intended Trolls to be able to use the "+4" (Natural Vision) modifier, there would be no reason to put a +6 into the Visibility Modifiers Table under Natural Thermo.
As I read the Visibility Modifiers Table on M&M page 49, I see three rows where someone with an augmented sense takes more penalties than someone without it:
Glare affects Cybered Thermo and Cybered Lowlight more than Normal Vision.
Thermo Smoke affects Natural and Cybered Thermo vision more than it affects Normal Vision.
White Noise affects someone using Ultrasound Sight/Ultrasound Goggles more than it affects someone using Normal Vision.
I must deduce that these three rows in the table intend for the highest penalty to apply when multiple vision systems are in use, instead of the lowest penalty.
I think it perfectly reasonable after augmented senses are developed, for someone to invent at 'attack' that harms someone with those senses more than someone without them. This is all I see happening here.
For these three rows, if we apply the highest penalty I think we're doing what the game designers intended, even if that's not what's written in the rules.
except that your houserule makes no real-life sense. there is absolutely no reason why a troll should be blinded by a hot summer day--which, by your argument, he would be.
It's not really a house rule, the way we're looking at it here. What otherpurpose is there for putting a +6 modifier next to thermographic vision in the book? There is no such thing as a character with only thermographic vision and no normal vision. (Not that I know of at least.)
A hot day isn't going to blind someone throughout the course of the entire day. Possibly when they first draw a curtain and see the bright sun that day. But an IR smoke grenade is going to inflict those kind of penalties for the length of its short duration.
A hot day isn't going to blind someone throughout the course of the entire day. Possibly when they first draw a curtain and see the bright sun that day. But an IR smoke grenade is going to inflict those kind of penalties for the length of its short duration.
Bah, humans have two visual methods already. Color and intensity. As the amount of light decreases, you rely more on intesity and color in unable to detect much of anything. These are not different spectrums, but portrays the point well enough. You rely on whichever visual input provides the most data, in low light, neither may provide enough data for your taste, but one eye structure being useless will not penalize the other eye structure.
Optimal is getting full input from all sensory methods, but you only suffer the penalty to resorting to the strongest portion of your visual sense.
The rule is a reasonable (not perfect) approximation of the event. Each sense is furthur balanced by the potential for that sense to be overloaded unless you take the effort to compensate for that possibility.
Optimal is getting full input from all sensory methods, but you only suffer the penalty to resorting to the strongest portion of your visual sense.
The rule is a reasonable (not perfect) approximation of the event. Each sense is furthur balanced by the potential for that sense to be overloaded unless you take the effort to compensate for that possibility.
it's a houserule because the rules quite clearly state how the modifier table works. the fact that you're attempting to interpret the designers' intent doesn't change that. it's also a houserule to say that a troll in the tropics will just 'get used to' the heat there.
the modifier is there because you can mix and match conditions. if it's dark out, a troll will be relying on his thermographic vision to negate that. dump a thermo smoke grenade on him, and he no longer has that option.
the modifier is there because you can mix and match conditions. if it's dark out, a troll will be relying on his thermographic vision to negate that. dump a thermo smoke grenade on him, and he no longer has that option.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| except that your houserule makes no real-life sense. there is absolutely no reason why a troll should be blinded by a hot summer day--which, by your argument, he would be. |
mfb, I don't know why you say that my interpretation would cause a Troll to be blinded on a hot summer day. I wouldn't argue for that. Infrared Smoke Grenades (SR3 p. 283, "Smoke Grenades") contain hot particles that obscure Thermographic vision. I assume these particles are a whole lot hotter than a hot summer day, and they are dispersed in the air. To anyone else, they are just particles obstructing their sight, but to the troll they are glowing particles AND an obstruction to their regular sight.
How hot do you figure the Infrared Smoke Grenades has to be to do this?
i figure they're about 100 degrees. any higher, and you'd have to start thinking about damage codes for excessive heat. for another thing, that's roughly the temperature of a human being, and human beings are largely what you're trying to obscure.
as well, it says under the thermo rules that the ambient temperature affects thermographic vision. if it's a 98-degree day, a troll's thermo vision will be basically useless--everything will just read as "hot"--certainly, he'll have a hard time picking out metahumans. by your rules, his normal vision should also be affected.
as well, it says under the thermo rules that the ambient temperature affects thermographic vision. if it's a 98-degree day, a troll's thermo vision will be basically useless--everything will just read as "hot"--certainly, he'll have a hard time picking out metahumans. by your rules, his normal vision should also be affected.
I'm making a very limited interpretation of the rules that I only want to apply to 3 specific instances on one single table.
I'm sorry, mfb, that you make your own extensions to what I'm proposing and then complain about those extensions.
I don't envision Thermal Smoke as anything close to 100 degrees. I assume the particles come out of the grenade at something over 200 degrees and quickly cool to around 140 and then cool off to simply be smoke blowing away over a short period of time.
I'm sorry, mfb, that you make your own extensions to what I'm proposing and then complain about those extensions.
I don't envision Thermal Smoke as anything close to 100 degrees. I assume the particles come out of the grenade at something over 200 degrees and quickly cool to around 140 and then cool off to simply be smoke blowing away over a short period of time.
ourteam, it states in CC that thermographic vision works off of relative temperature. if thermal smoke were 200 degrees, it would serve to clarify a thermographic viewer's vision--there'd be a 100-degree difference in temperature between the smoke and the hottest other objects around!
further, it also states that the ambient temperature has an effect on thermographic vision. thermal smoke fills an area with a warm gas--that's ambient temperature. ergo, thermal smoke will have the same effect as air that has been heated to the same temperature as the smoke is. therefore, a troll who's normal vision is affected by thermographics will also be affected by a hot day.
not only that, 200 degrees is insane. do you realize the kind of damage that 200-degree smoke would inflict? screw being blind, i'm talking about being scalded to death.
further, it also states that the ambient temperature has an effect on thermographic vision. thermal smoke fills an area with a warm gas--that's ambient temperature. ergo, thermal smoke will have the same effect as air that has been heated to the same temperature as the smoke is. therefore, a troll who's normal vision is affected by thermographics will also be affected by a hot day.
not only that, 200 degrees is insane. do you realize the kind of damage that 200-degree smoke would inflict? screw being blind, i'm talking about being scalded to death.
Well, the rules on p49 of MM do say that thermo would be useless for differentiating metahumans from a steamy jungle.
As far as the lowest modifier rule goes, I'm not exactly sure that someone's natural sight is to be considered a 'vision system'. To me, the rules pretty clearly imply that the 'lowest modifier' rule applies only to cybered vision. As has been mentioned, otherwise there is absolutely no reason for a separate Thermal Smoke modifier for natural thermo.
As far as the lowest modifier rule goes, I'm not exactly sure that someone's natural sight is to be considered a 'vision system'. To me, the rules pretty clearly imply that the 'lowest modifier' rule applies only to cybered vision. As has been mentioned, otherwise there is absolutely no reason for a separate Thermal Smoke modifier for natural thermo.
...?
mfb, the high heat particles are meant to overload heat senses, not camoflauge. It's like looking through heavy London fog.
Better yet, like the effects of a flash grenade on normal vision.
Even an icecube would not show up in the middle of a cloud of 200 degree particles.
mfb, the high heat particles are meant to overload heat senses, not camoflauge. It's like looking through heavy London fog.
Better yet, like the effects of a flash grenade on normal vision.
Even an icecube would not show up in the middle of a cloud of 200 degree particles.
no, not like the effects of a flash grenade. a flash grenade imposes a flash modifier, which has its own description and rules.
| QUOTE (OurTeam) | ||||
Thanks, mfb, because that's my interpretation of using the rules as written, and part of why I have trouble with those rules. Lets look at Thermo Smoke. Penalty of +4 to Normal Vision (like light smoke), penalty of +4 to Natural Lowlight vision (like light smoke), and a penalty of +6 to Natural Thermo vision. If the rules intended Trolls to be able to use the "+4" (Natural Vision) modifier, there would be no reason to put a +6 into the Visibility Modifiers Table under Natural Thermo. |
The reason is for situations when there is more than one visibility modifier.
Such as being in total darkness, underground, and thermal smoke. Characters using normal or low light vision are going to be +8, but thermo vision will be +6. The thermo vision has no incentive to default to normal or low light vision.
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