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Phaeton
Do you need the off-hand cyber-implant weapon combat skill if you want to use an implant weapon on both limbs at once? Or just need two of the implants? And if you had two implant weapons AND the off-hand and normal skill for each of them, could you attack two opponents without the normal penalty for attacking multiple opponents in a melee?
Ol' Scratch
If you just want to gain the (Strength+50%) bonus inherent to implants like retractable spurs, you can get away with just having the basic Skill and both implants. But if you want the added dice, you need to buy Off-Hand Cyber-Implant or Ambidexterity 3 or 4. Don't listen to anyone who tries to tell you that the latter denies the character the Power bonus for twin spurs, though. As previously stated in another thread, it's just as balanced after the introduction of Ambidexterity and Off-Hand Skills as it was beforehand. The player still needs to buy two weapons and either the extra skill or the edge, just like anyone else. In that case, they're still gaining 9 dice and (Strength+50%) vs. 9 dice just like they were getting 6 dice (Strength+50%) vs. 6 dice before the new rules. No change in balance whatsoever.

You can also attack multiple opponents just like anyone else can. I believe it adds a cumulative +2 TN modifier for each additional target. The Multi-Strike martial arts maneuver lowers this to +1, but each attack is also lowered by -1 Power in those cases. You don't gain any special ability to do so with two weapons or two spurs, though.
spotlite
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
If you just want to gain the (Strength+50%) bonus inherent to implants like retractable spurs, you can get away with just having the basic Skill and both implants. But if you want the added dice, you need to buy Off-Hand Cyber-Implant or Ambidexterity 3 or 4. Don't listen to anyone who tries to tell you that the latter denies the character the Power bonus for twin spurs, though. As previously stated in another thread, it's just as balanced after the introduction of Ambidexterity and Off-Hand Skills as it was beforehand. The player still needs to buy two weapons and either the extra skill or the edge, just like anyone else. In that case, they're still gaining 9 dice and (Strength+50%) vs. 9 dice just like they were getting 6 dice (Strength+50%) vs. 6 dice before the new rules. No change in balance whatsoever.

You can also attack multiple opponents just like anyone else can. I believe it adds a cumulative +2 TN modifier for each additional target. The Multi-Strike martial arts maneuver lowers this to +1, but each attack is also lowered by -1 Power in those cases. You don't gain any special ability to do so with two weapons or two spurs, though.

OK, I'll bite - what inherent Str+50% bonus?

I've had a quick look through the Cannon companion, spur description, skill description, melee combat description, even the forearm snapblade description, and all I see is Str(M). I give up. What am I missing?
Ol' Scratch
SR3, p. 121.
spotlite
Ah yes, now why didn't I think of looking at melee weapons in the combat chapter, instead of at the listing for the specific piece of kit in the gear section, or the skill that deals with the weapon at hand, or anywhere else more likely? Ah well. Thanks for the pg ref. I'll have to advise my players of that one cos they've probably missed it.

Now I've read it though... Don't the two weapon fighting rules supercede these (meaning that you get the extra damage, but you need the extra skill and so forth)? Or are we taking dual spurs as a special exception? In the CC spurs are listed as forearm snap blades as a secondary weapon (so can also be equipped as a primary). Does this not mean that using the second hand must therefore use the offhand rules as described there?

Personally I've always loathed the two weapon fighting rules from the CC. They're clumsy, don't make a lot of real life sense (I've SEEN people fight with 2 swords. Don't tell me you can't have one as a secondary weapon) and really not worth the karma it costs. We've house rule fudged it but I won't bore you with the details. But I think the CC rules supercede the ones in the rulebook, so don't think you could get away with just the skill and both implants and take the +50% bonus - I think you should either apply ALL of the 2 weapon rules to spurs (otherwise why does it even have an off hand cyber implant weaponry skill?) and do base damage with the 'leading' - i.e. primary - weapon, or use the spurs rules for all two weapon fighting where the 2 weapons are the same and do +50% with twin weapons.

All imho as usual. Its one of those situations I think where you just need to pick one approach and just use it consistently.
spotlite
Another quick tweak i just thought of for the off hand weapons/two handed weapon rules in CC - instead of only using half the dice from the OHWS, half the bonuses etc, just use the skill as complementary so every two successes counts as one. Otherwise i just don't think its worth the karma unless you happen to be holding a gun in your on hand and need to use the spurs/knife/whatever in the other. At least with complementary dice you can still get as many extra successes as you would if you divided the dice by two, and it fits with existing game mechanics.

Combat pool rules still apply (no more than the primary skill) but you'd get full bonuses for the second skill (eg adept powers) if you did it this way.

Maybe I'm talking garbage, but this seems an okay compromise to me for that active skill karma cost. You also get the satisfaction of rolling an even bigger handful of dice, which if you checked out some of my players in-game is what you'd think the point was! biggrin.gif
CoalHeart
I always thought it really depended on what you wanted to do.

You could take the secondary weapon off hand (Or just the ambidex edge) and add in the secondary pool of dice, Or roll an extra 1/2 as many dice. Completely forgoing the Extra power given by dual cyberweapons.

Or if you wanted the extra power bonus you gave up the secondary roll and the extra dice to gain the 1.5XStr bonus.

So either way it's up to you at that point. Are you strong enough where you don't need the bonus power and need extra dice to succeed on an attack. Or are you skilled enough where you don't need the extra dice and just want to do a little more hurting.

Personally in our table top game we use this rule. My character has both ambidex, and spurs in both arms. I switch using the rules (which we allow) Depending on the circumstance. How much armor is the guy wearing, is he a really skilled fighter and so on.

We explain the difference in combat styles of Swinging twice, jabbing him in the chest and the thigh with a little less force but harder to defend (More dice using secondary weapon)
Or
You rip into the guy's chest with both spurs, twisting grating the blades against bone and so on (More power)

Be flexible, be adaptive. Just for god's sake man do what's fun.
Ol' Scratch
Oy.

So in effect, you guys are advocating that retractable spurs and their ilk become less effective at damaging something when you spend the equivalence of 60 Karma (6-point Edge). Right. Okay. Whatever floats your boat.

It is, once again, a very unique benefit of getting two spurs instead of just one. That rule doesn't apply to fighting with two weapons in general whatsoever. It applies *solely* to retractable spurs and hand razors. You could toss two knives into a guy's hands, and he won't get the +50% Strength bonus to Power, because it's not the unique trait of knives or anything else. It's a special bonus for spending 0.6 Essence and 18,000 nuyen on his weapon, whereas most weapons don't require any Essence whatsoever or anything approaching that cost off the shelf.

It is in no way unbalanced, either. Ken the Katanaboy is fighting Wolfgang the Wolverine-Wannabe. They both have invested exactly 6 Skill Points in their respective weapon skills. They are otherwise identical in every way, including having stats of 6 across the board. Ken has a Reach of 1 and 9M Damage at a cost of 0 Essence and 1,000 nuyen while Wolfgang has a Reach of 0 and 9M Damage at a cost of 0.6 Essence and 18,000 nuyen.

Later, they both get their hands on the Cannon Companion and spent exactly the same amount of Karma to acquire their respective Off-Hand Weapon skill at 6 (or get Ambidexterity 3, whichever -- the point is, they paid the same price). Ken adds in an extra 1,000 nuyen (which is still 16,000 nuyen less than Wolfgang) and is now doing 9M Damage with 9 Dice while Wolfgang is doing 9M Damage with 9 Dice, too. Someone please explain to me how that's horribly munchkin.

Because, according to some of you guys, in that last example Ken is now doing 9M Damage with 9 Dice while Wolfgang, mysteriously, drops to only 6M with 9 Dice. Even though after all is said and done, he paid 0.6 Essence and 16,000 nuyen more than Ken.

I just don't get that mentality.
CoalHeart
Because Wolfgang will never be disarmed(figuratively) His arms could be removed sure. Wolfgang can go through securiuty and never has to worry about someone looking at his shiny new toy unless he has them out all the time.

Ken can have his swords stolen, Broken, disarmed. Sure he may have reach, but Wolfgang can use close combat manuvers to get over that.

Wolfgang will never be caught without a weapon
Ken will be completely F-ed over unless he has his precious Katana.

That is the reason for cyberweapons. You are the weapon.
with a Katana, you're the guy behind the weapon, and the weapon is in your hand.

Also why Cyberguns are quite popular. What can possibly beat pointing a finger at someone and saying 'Bang Bang you're dead' They laugh your fingertip pops open and a 44magnum slug is shot into thier face. Come on if that's not style you're a blind man.
Ol' Scratch
Wolfgang can have his weapons broken, too, and security checkpoints can easily detect them with a cyberware scanner. Oh, and Ken has the advantage of Reach when using his weapon while Wolfgang does not.

In other words, I still fail to see your point.

I guess you should also punish people with cyberguns, too, eh? Cut the Damage Code of their weapons by 25% just for the fun of it, right? Afterall, they can never be disarmed, either... just like good ol' Wolfgang. Oh wait, but you'd only do that if they had TWO cyberguns and were using the Ambidexterity, edge, right? ohplease.gif
Zazen
I don't like using the +50% power thing at all because it doesn't jibe with any other two-handed weapon advantages. Hell, you could wear two of those lame strap-on spurs and not get the bonus, but having them implanted makes them super extra penetrating?

I think that the only reason they gave spurs that property is to add an advantage to having two. Having two spurs is fun and cool but would otherwise provide no combat advantage using SR3 alone. CC provides it with advantages that are much more consistent, so I see no reason left to keep this rather clunky patch.
Fortune
QUOTE (Zazen)
CC provides it with advantages that are much more consistent, so I see no reason left to keep this rather clunky patch.

Other than Rob's ruling that using both together is still considered to be canon.
Zazen
I don't consider Canonicity or Robs Opinion to be compelling reasons for me to keep rules that I dislike, though. I imagine that most people feel the same way. smile.gif
Cochise
QUOTE (Fortune)
Other than Rob's ruling that using both together is still considered to be canon.

And Rob is not immune to making mistakes ...

I guess we had that discussion a dozen times now. And no matter how hard Funk or anyone else involved tried to convince me, I still don't see why CC rulings concerning the use of the damage of only the primary weapon would not supercede the core rule where paired (primary + secondary) spurs are represented with that strength bonus to damage.

But then again, that's just me ...
Ol' Scratch
I just love it when everyone who harps on me for saying the exact same thing about the errata, FAQs, and Rob's comments (even when they do agree with me) don't hestitate whatsoever to say exactly the same thing when one of their pet house rules or arguments are overruled. It's a truly beautiful thing.
Cochise
*huh?*
El_Machinae
What I didn't like about the CC rule, is that my character went from doing 9M cyberspur damage (5 dice, two spurs) to 9M dmg (5 primary dice and 3 dice at +4 TN (1/2 Qui)). Allofasudden I could roll three more dice (albiet at a much higher difficulty).

There's no reason to not have an off-hand weapon, even if it's a hardliner glove.

"Why does that guy walk around with a hardliner on his off hand?"
Austere Emancipator
I won't comment on what is canon or not, but I wouldn't allow the two bonuses to be cumulative in my games. Even if you could make such cool characters with it as...

THE WALLHACKER!!!1112
B11(14) Q5 S14 C1 I1 W2 E5.1 M5 CP 4 R3 Init 3 + 1d6
Cyber-Implant Combat (Hand Blades) 5/7
Hand Blade (Dikoted, Weapon Focus-6)
Hand Blade (Dikoted, Weapon Focus-2)
Dermal Sheath-1
Improved Phys Attr (Str over RacMod 3)
Improved Abil (CIC/HBs 4)
10 doses of Nitro
And quite a few Build Points left over.

Without the Nitro, Mr Wallhacker can do 25M. With the Nitro, that's 28M, and he only needs 8 4's on 14 dice (a decent chance of that happening) to take no damage from the Nitro. He can use 18 dice for this attack: 7 (skill) + 3 ( skill) + 4 (ImpAb) + 4 (CP). Once he binds his foci, that goes up to 25 dice.

Pissed off at all the guys in Heavy Military Grade + Helmets + Riot Shields? Stone walls (or other structural materials) giving you trouble? Too many Devil Rats or Citymasters around? Call in THE WALLHACKER!
TinkerGnome
The WallHacker'd be better off with cyber spurs wink.gif Once you top 12 power, you're better off with the boost in damage level.
Austere Emancipator
The whole point of THE WALLHACKER!!!!11112 is that he can penetrate 12 points of Hardened Armor. That'd be more difficult with Cyber Spurs. And I don't think getting 4 net successes with 18 dice with +1 Reach will be a problem, or even the 6 you need to "kill" an APC.
spotlite
Seems like a pointless argument to me. If the official clarification is that both rules work together, then I'll take the dual spurs and the damage bonus in return for not having to spend karma on an off hand weapon skill for which not only will i get to use only half its rating, but I'll have to accept higher target numbers.

That's all I'm saying. That the 2 weapon rules seem to be weighted AGAINST people using 2 weapons that are not both spurs. They certainly seem to hinder more than they help - you have to spend LOTS more karma, take a higher target number especially if you don't have a corresponding edge of sufficient level and do all sorts of maths to make the rules work and they seem to work in a different manner to all the other rules, and you only do damage with one weapon. Whereas the dual spur rules are quick & efficient and seem to make it worth it. Note - I'm not saying i'm right, I'm just saying that's how it seems to me. Though I might impose a +2 for using a second weapon in the first place.

But as I said, I really don't like the 2 weapon rules. They don't make any sense to me, so i don't use them. I was only offering alternatives if other people felt the same way.

<snip> there was a bunch of stuff there querying things doc said because I don't think I understand what he was getting at earlier. But I've decided I don't care biggrin.gif.

What I would like to know though is what the rationale behind only doing damage with the leading weapon in 2 weapon fighting is, and what's with the very restricted list as to what can and can't be a primary or secondary weapon? As I said earlier I've seen people use 2 swords for example, very effectively I might add, yet you cannot have this by the rules in the book. Why? Anyone know?
Siege
Hey, the wall-hacker has to have climbing claws implanted just to round out the mix. grinbig.gif

And a balance tail...with a stinger...

And kid Stealth cyberlegs...YEAH!

-Siege
Zazen
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
I just love it when everyone who harps on me for saying the exact same thing about the errata, FAQs, and Rob's comments (even when they do agree with me) don't hestitate whatsoever to say exactly the same thing when one of their pet house rules or arguments are overruled.

Who is "everyone"? I only see myself and Cochise, and I don't recall ever harping on you about that.
Cochise
QUOTE (Zazen)
Who is "everyone"? I only see myself and Cochise, and I don't recall ever harping on you about that.

I don't do so either ... That's the reason for my initial reaction: *huh?*
Ol' Scratch
It was just a general comment. I sincerely didn't mean to "attack" either of you there; I just found it humorous that people jump down my throat when I say the same thing but others seem to get away with it all the time. smile.gif Sorry. Just a tad bitter. biggrin.gif
Zazen
Yeah, I dig. I think it's because you're just more fun to rile up than we are. wink.gif
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