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Wounded Ronin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGkIfcyyNFQ

Have you ever wondered what happens when a newb forgets to use his combat pool when rolling Unarmed Combat? Now you may see the grisly results.
Kagetenshi
Man, take a close look at that kick he throws if you haven't already. Not only does he spend most of it with his hands down by his waist and start with a big-ass windup, his hips don't rotate at all when he throws it. Add in the fact that he's practically leaning backwards through the entire kick, and it's a pretty clear demonstration of the lack of ability of the other guy when he fails to take him down right then and there.

~J
hyzmarca
I like how, when cornered, he stops pretending that it is a fight and just breaks into a run, but is so close to the other guy that such an escape is impossible.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Man, take a close look at that kick he throws if you haven't already. Not only does he spend most of it with his hands down by his waist and start with a big-ass windup, his hips don't rotate at all when he throws it.

Whenever I conceptualize using Unarmed Combat to attack but not adding pool I always think of someone throwing a strike but not committing to it. Pretty much a lot like what you describe.
Kagetenshi
Yeah, but there's a different kind of lack of commitment involved here. I picture something along the lines of boxing-style full defensive crouch, soaking hits rather than trying to block and counter and at best making quick jabs here and there.

Of course, if you don't use your combat pool to soak, either… but really, basic issues with form like that can't be chalked up to anything but skill. I mean, if you saw a video of a shooting competition (or maybe a gunfight) where one of the participants was using a pistol in an exaggerated "gangster style" with the shooting arm unsupported and held bent with the elbow rising nearly to the top of the head, would you call that a failure to use combat pool on the attack?

~J
Critias
Yes, but I'd say it's because he was defaulting and wasn't allowed to use combat pool.
Tanka
QUOTE (Critias)
Yes, but I'd say it's because he was defaulting and wasn't allowed to use combat pool.

Indeed.

A year and a half in a McDojo (just my guess, folks) does not constitute anything near ability to actually fight.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Tanka)
McDojo

rotfl.gif
Kagetenshi
Egg Sausage McDojo with Cheese.

Though it'd be pretty funny if someone who actually knew what they were doing managed to play out the early portions of that. Against that opponent you could probably get away with it, too, and it'd be completely worth it to see the reactions.

~J
kigmatzomat
{semi-offtopic}

The local chain dojo is "Hwang's Martial Arts." There are 7 Hwang's in Louisville. You have no idea how many jokes get made about it. My wife just starts giggling every time we drive by one.

DireRadiant
I'm just surprised the guy just didn't fall over when walking in.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Yeah, but there's a different kind of lack of commitment involved here. I picture something along the lines of boxing-style full defensive crouch, soaking hits rather than trying to block and counter and at best making quick jabs here and there.

Well, this discussion is completely and utterly abstract, but I'll explain the way I see it.

If you make a good attack, meaning that you're putting all your attention into having the best form possible and launching the attack at the most appropriate moment whether it's a jab or a right hook, you are more likely to hurt the other guy and less likely to experience a disastrous counter attack. I feel like putting all your attention into that one task is like putting all your combat pool into that task since it both affects your maximum potential damage and reduces the odds that you will be countered.

However, if you are distracted and make an attack poorly because (as in this case) you're scared and can't focus properly, you are not using pool since your attention is elsewhere than doing a good job with your attack. As such you are more vulnerable to a counter by an opponent who is ready for you to make a committment and you're also more unlikely to do damage. In the context of SR this might be that you throw a crappy punch at someone nearby because you're paying more attention to trying to duck some gunfire, i.e. you used all your pool for the dodge test and just attacking with base skill.
eidolon
Awesome. I've been in it for about a year and a half. So I rule ass.

edit: I mean holy crap what is this?? The announcers sound like they're used to calling actual fights, so what the hell is this? Has to be local TV somewhere.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Nov 6 2007, 04:08 PM)
If you make a good attack, meaning that you're putting all your attention into having the best form possible and launching the attack at the most appropriate moment whether it's a jab or a right hook, you are more likely to hurt the other guy and less likely to experience a disastrous counter attack.  I feel like putting all your attention into that one task is like putting all your combat pool into that task since it both affects your maximum potential damage and reduces the odds that you will be countered.

However, if you are distracted and make an attack poorly because (as in this case) you're scared and can't focus properly, you are not using pool since your attention is elsewhere than doing a good job with your attack.  As such you are more vulnerable to a counter by an opponent who is ready for you to make a committment and you're also more unlikely to do damage.  In the context of SR this might be that you throw a crappy punch at someone nearby because you're paying more attention to trying to duck some gunfire, i.e. you used all your pool for the dodge test and just attacking with base skill.

I generally agree, but we're not talking about that here. I'll grant that it can take a while to really internalize the fact that just about every strike should be thrown with the hip, but stuff like "keep your hands in front of your damn face, or at least your chest" is what they hammered into us back when I was in the children's class. Even as much as a year or more later you'd see some people dropping their hands during a kick, but he doesn't even try—in fact, with an utter absence of even that basic level of form, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that he isn't from a McDojo, but instead is from the school of Watching Martial Arts Movies Then Trying To Do What You Just Saw.

Maybe I have too much faith in humanity, but that seems like something even a McDojo would get right.

~J
Whipstitch
Most McDojos probably talk about keeping your hands up and in position to counter, but since even the ones that aren't intentionally fraudulent rarely include any real sparring so it's rather unlikely that anyone who attends one will learn to really put that advice into practice. Whether or not you believe sparring is representative of a "real" fight, putting up your hands to avoid that damn ringing sensation in your ears is a pretty damn convincing form of operant conditioning. Also, if there's anything I've learned from wrestling (which god do I suck at) it's that if you have to think about something to do it then you're likely way too late and probably should have done it at least 3 seconds ago.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Nov 6 2007, 04:45 PM)
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Nov 6 2007, 04:08 PM)
If you make a good attack, meaning that you're putting all your attention into having the best form possible and launching the attack at the most appropriate moment whether it's a jab or a right hook, you are more likely to hurt the other guy and less likely to experience a disastrous counter attack.  I feel like putting all your attention into that one task is like putting all your combat pool into that task since it both affects your maximum potential damage and reduces the odds that you will be countered.

However, if you are distracted and make an attack poorly because (as in this case) you're scared and can't focus properly, you are not using pool since your attention is elsewhere than doing a good job with your attack.  As such you are more vulnerable to a counter by an opponent who is ready for you to make a committment and you're also more unlikely to do damage.  In the context of SR this might be that you throw a crappy punch at someone nearby because you're paying more attention to trying to duck some gunfire, i.e. you used all your pool for the dodge test and just attacking with base skill.

I generally agree, but we're not talking about that here. I'll grant that it can take a while to really internalize the fact that just about every strike should be thrown with the hip, but stuff like "keep your hands in front of your damn face, or at least your chest" is what they hammered into us back when I was in the children's class. Even as much as a year or more later you'd see some people dropping their hands during a kick, but he doesn't even try—in fact, with an utter absence of even that basic level of form, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that he isn't from a McDojo, but instead is from the school of Watching Martial Arts Movies Then Trying To Do What You Just Saw.

Maybe I have too much faith in humanity, but that seems like something even a McDojo would get right.

~J

The way I see it a typical commercial karate school is not going to have full contact sparring because most casual customers don't actually like that and because the insurance companies also really don't like that. If this was Vermont's first experience with someone fighting against him full contact and all out I could see that whatever material did get covered in his classes would totally go out the window due to panic and adrenaline.

There's another guy who you see sometimes in K1 who I believe just watched a lot of movies. I forgot his name but he's got a web page. He's a dude with a 'fro who actively imitates Bruce Lee in the ring. They surely just keep him on because the Japanese audiences love a comedy spectacle. But there you see an example of someone who is literally trying to emulate a movie. In fact, I'll see if I can't google who I'm talking about. Stay tuned...

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzCBaKD15WI

OK, here you go. This is the guy I was talking about. Here you see someone explicitly trying to bring the movies to a real world sporting event.
Kagetenshi
WR, you have made my week. To be able to watch a fight between Kung Fu Master Tony Brent (or whatever ?レント is supposed to be) and Yamamoto Kid, with that announcer…

~J
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
WR, you have made my week. To be able to watch a fight between Kung Fu Master Tony Brent (or whatever ?レント is supposed to be) and Yamamoto Kid, with that announcer…

~J

Tony Valente smile.gif
Critias
I hate you for posting that while I'm at work (and can't watch movies).
Sahandrian
"Uh... I kicked really pretty."

That's among the funniest things I've heard all week.
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