Ok, so Astral Perception is the "primary sense used in the astral plane" It shows auras, and comes with a handy assensing table for what you can learn from people's auras.
But can you observe anything else? Emotions are a given, and so are objects that block your sight or movement, but what about other things? Can you hear (and understand) a conversation? Can you identify someone's face? Street signs? The button combination being punched into a keypad by a mundane you are watching? What about spotting things like weapons, computers, or other highly processed items (that usually require high thresholds to affect with magic)
In short, what can you learn about the physical while in astral? I've generally ran it as sort of shadow-like copy, with all non-emotional stuff to be blank, vague, and generally feature-less. You know it is there, but you really don't know what it is. Anything with emotion would still be blurry or hard to make out, but would reveal its emotional aura easily. Your opinions?
Full Version: Astral observations question
Street Magic explicitly states that non-living items appear as "shadows." They describe a fancy car as showing up dull and lifeless. They also state you cannot read text astrally.
Beyond that, they don't seem to go into much detail. What they mean by shadows is up in the air. Personally, I play it as dark splotches in general shapes. If a large enough splotch is in a specific place, you can infer it's a car or a boat, but looking at a person, that bulge in their jacket could be a gun or a pack of gum for all you know. Quite frankly, if it doesn't have an aura, I doubt you can tell what it is.
Beyond that, they don't seem to go into much detail. What they mean by shadows is up in the air. Personally, I play it as dark splotches in general shapes. If a large enough splotch is in a specific place, you can infer it's a car or a boat, but looking at a person, that bulge in their jacket could be a gun or a pack of gum for all you know. Quite frankly, if it doesn't have an aura, I doubt you can tell what it is.
Well, a gun might feel metallic and cold, and a favored or frequently used (for killing) gun might have a feeling of death on it. Gum, on the other hand, would probably have little or no astral presence to it, although, if it were the person's favorite flavor gum, the assenser might pick up on that.
Since I've only really based my perceptions of the astral on what I've read in the rulebook, could you illuminate me on your logic? Perhaps give a few examples of what you think is perceivable or not?
Well, in SM, we get the following bit about astral shadows and objects:
| QUOTE |
| Shadows, like many other terrain features on the astral, are influenced by the emotional charges of the physical objects they mirror. If the book were a significant tome whose words have had an emotional impact on many people, the text may have enough emotional resonance to be understood from the astral plane. Emotionally charged shadows are still insubstantial, but are visibly sharper than their less significant counterparts. Some may even bear impressions tied to the events that make them so important, which can be interpreted through assensing or Psychometry metamagic |
So my logic is, if an object starts picking up an emotional charge from people around it, then that charge should be detectable and somewhat understandable, but not particularly clear (specializing in assensing shadows or taking the Psychometry metamagic, to my mind, means that you've been trained in the understanding and interpretation of the reading of emotional charges on shadows).
So, if a hitman's favorite gun, one that has ended many lives, is assensed by a mage from the astral, then, by that logic, he should pick up a feeling of death from it (and perhaps a feeling of affection or security as well, imprinted from the hitman, especially if he named the damn thing).
If someone assensed from the astral the copies of I, Jedi or Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban that I read so many times in middle and high school that I had to get new copies when the spines broke, they might get a feeling of excitement, fear, joy, amusement and all of the other emotions that I had when I was reading the books again and again and again.
If someone assensed a brand-new car, just off the assembly line, they would get very little from it, aside from a feeling of it being a highly refined object, with little connection to the astral. However, eleven years later, when that car has been with a family for years, taken kids to college and the family to the beach, been the site of Junior's first fumbling encounters, and been worked on and cursed at for years, gaining all of the lovable and annoying quirks of older cars, then the assensing mage is going to get alot more out of it, because the car, a manufactured object, now has more of a connection to the living.
The following are how I would answer the questions, based on my understanding of the rules. They are not canon or quotes from some section a rulebook you missed. 
I'd say you can recognize someone's face, since they're living and hence "in color" so to speak on the astral (it's all about life energy). More importantly, perhaps, is that an aura is as distinctive, if not more, than a face, and you can see that.
You probably couldn't hear the words of a conversation purely from the astral (though if you're just astrally perceiving rather than projecting you might be close enough to hear it normally), but you will be able to find out the emotions behind the words that are being spoken. You'll know if they're arguing, if they hate or love each other, probably have a better chance of spotting a lie, and while get the sense of the meaning of the conversation (for instance you might sense, "I have to go but we'll meet later" and that the two people recently argued about something when the person actually said "I'm late for work but I'll see you at noon at the train station and we can discuss how you'll pay for crashing my car.").
Street signs are probably just chunks of metal with scribbling on them, but if a child likes to swing around that street sign everyday on the way to school, that could be read as clearly as the words you see on the sign on the physical.
You couldn't see the button combo being pressed, but if the employee used his wife's birthday for his combo, you'd know that. Less the numbers, more the emotional association. Depending how well you rolled on your Assensing test, you might know the number was important to him (1 success), then that it was a date or even a birthday (2 successes), then that it was a family member's birthday (3 successes), and finally that it was his wife's birthday and that it was coming up soon and needed to pick up the ring for her present at lunch today (4+ successes), for example.
Spotting mundane items about a person's body would really only be possible if they had a strong emotional attachment for the person. You probably couldn't spot a gun, but you could spot a teddy bear in a child's backpack, for instance. Of course if it's a samurai with extreme mommy issues and an unhealthy, possibly immoral, attachment to that particular gun (I so don't want to see that home video...) then maybe but eww.
I'd say you can recognize someone's face, since they're living and hence "in color" so to speak on the astral (it's all about life energy). More importantly, perhaps, is that an aura is as distinctive, if not more, than a face, and you can see that.
You probably couldn't hear the words of a conversation purely from the astral (though if you're just astrally perceiving rather than projecting you might be close enough to hear it normally), but you will be able to find out the emotions behind the words that are being spoken. You'll know if they're arguing, if they hate or love each other, probably have a better chance of spotting a lie, and while get the sense of the meaning of the conversation (for instance you might sense, "I have to go but we'll meet later" and that the two people recently argued about something when the person actually said "I'm late for work but I'll see you at noon at the train station and we can discuss how you'll pay for crashing my car.").
Street signs are probably just chunks of metal with scribbling on them, but if a child likes to swing around that street sign everyday on the way to school, that could be read as clearly as the words you see on the sign on the physical.
You couldn't see the button combo being pressed, but if the employee used his wife's birthday for his combo, you'd know that. Less the numbers, more the emotional association. Depending how well you rolled on your Assensing test, you might know the number was important to him (1 success), then that it was a date or even a birthday (2 successes), then that it was a family member's birthday (3 successes), and finally that it was his wife's birthday and that it was coming up soon and needed to pick up the ring for her present at lunch today (4+ successes), for example.
Spotting mundane items about a person's body would really only be possible if they had a strong emotional attachment for the person. You probably couldn't spot a gun, but you could spot a teddy bear in a child's backpack, for instance. Of course if it's a samurai with extreme mommy issues and an unhealthy, possibly immoral, attachment to that particular gun (I so don't want to see that home video...) then maybe but eww.
| QUOTE (bibliophile20) |
| So my logic is, if an object starts picking up an emotional charge from people around it, then that charge should be detectable and somewhat understandable, but not particularly clear (specializing in assensing shadows or taking the Psychometry metamagic, to my mind, means that you've been trained in the understanding and interpretation of the reading of emotional charges on shadows). |
That's an excellent explanation. One clarification: when the rules mention a "tome whose words have had an emotional impact," we are talking about a specific book? Or are we talking about any printing of a significant work?
| QUOTE (Simon May) | ||
That's an excellent explanation. One clarification: when the rules mention a "tome whose words have had an emotional impact," we are talking about a specific book? Or are we talking about any printing of a significant work? |
Depends on the book. In most cases, a particular book carries a special significance to one person, like the example above of a treasured copy of Harry Potter. That book doesn't mean much to me, but it still has a strong presence on the astral because it means something to somebody.
There are other books, such as the Bible, that tend to carry an emotional significance due to the text, not due to that particular copy of the book. Some copies of the Bible will be more present on the astral than others, because they are particularly special or important, but in general a Bible will have more presence on the astral than a copy of Seventeen magazine.
A teenage girl's diary would shine spectacularly with emotional content.
Perhaps with the emotions varying by the page.
As, in a different way, would a young child's favorite book, the one they -always- want read to them at bedtime.
As, in a different way, would a young child's favorite book, the one they -always- want read to them at bedtime.
| QUOTE (Simon May) | ||
That's an excellent explanation. One clarification: when the rules mention a "tome whose words have had an emotional impact," we are talking about a specific book? Or are we talking about any printing of a significant work? |
Thank you. And it would be both: a copy of a significant book would have some emotional charge to it (but only after it has been read at least once; before that, it's just fiber and ink, wrought in a pleasing form), but a single book that has significant emotional meaning to a single person--Fortune's example of a teenaged girl's diary being absolutely excellent--would have more of an emotional charge to it. So, while the book sitting on the library's "New Arrivals" section that's already dog-eared and worn would have a strong emotional charge to it, a teenaged girl's diary would practically be glowing on the astral, because it has such a strong emotional connection to the writer.
Hmmm...
Now I want to get my assenser PC into an antique bookstore... can you say "overload"?But getting back to the topic, rule of thumb and thing to remember about objects on the astral is that the astral is the turf of living things; if it's alive, it shows up on the astral as an aura; if it's not alive, then it's a shadow. But if a shadow gains a connection to a living thing, then it starts to appear more strongly on the astral, because it is now a little bit more "alive" than its compatriots, because it has become a part of someone, in an emotional way.
Here, to take another example, let's take a small rock; it's just a small, smooth river rock, wouldn't look the slightest bit out of place on a gravel path somewhere. Assense it and you might--might! at, say, 10 hits--get a feeling of vast and ponderous geological processes from when it was part of the living earth, but nothing else. But let's say that that rock was someone's worrystone, that each time they became anxious they reached into their pocket and touched the stone for reassurance. Now if someone were to assense the rock, they would get a strong emotional feeling of worry, anxiety and reassurance.
So someone goes out and gets a copy of the Da Vinci Code, which many ignorant people believe to be a masterpiece, and reads it. The reader, being intelligent, finds it to be a piece of trash. Still emotionally charged?
| QUOTE (Simon May) |
| So someone goes out and gets a copy of the Da Vinci Code, which many ignorant people believe to be a masterpiece, and reads it. The reader, being intelligent, finds it to be a piece of trash. Still emotionally charged? |
Not really; at best, only with disgust, irritation, and annoyance.
So then the aura has absolutely nothing to do with the work's cultural significance at all, but with the personal connection to the reader, meaning that most bibles won't glow since no one reads them.
Correct; a non-living item only has a connection to the astral via a living being, and only when a living being makes a connection to it (otherwise the whole concept of material links for ritual sorcery is distorted). Think of it this way: you're in a book warehouse and there are crates and crates and crates full of books all around you. What are they at this point? Fiber and ink. Nothing more, nothing less. However, take out a single book from one of those crates and sit down to read it and (if the author is a decent one) be transported into another world, full of wonder. The ink and fiber now has meaning for you.
Consider a custom portrait of a family. The family never touches it since it's in a frame. Can the emotional link be passed without physical contact?
Another example: Prized NRFB doll. Perhaps a Barbie collector or a Star Wars figurine that someone bought, never removed it from the box, but treasured it nonetheless.
Another example: Prized NRFB doll. Perhaps a Barbie collector or a Star Wars figurine that someone bought, never removed it from the box, but treasured it nonetheless.
The portrait, yes, but the charge would take longer to build up and would never be as powerful as a book or a child's toy, due to the lack of interactivity with it.
Ditto with the NRFB toy; sure, you treasure it, but there's only so much you can do with a toy that's never been removed from its box.
Ditto with the NRFB toy; sure, you treasure it, but there's only so much you can do with a toy that's never been removed from its box.
For some good scenes involving emotional imprints on objects (not to mention a hilarious bar brawl), try "Brother from Another Planet". The main character is sensitive to those imprints. He walks into a bar, sits on a random stool, and jumps in shock because the stool carries the imprint from when a person died while sitting on that stool.
Astral perception could be really useful for spotting smuggled goods: of all the boxes in the cargo shipment, look for the one packed with furtive, paranoid, control-freak care.
A bible that had been read by many people could hold wildly varying layers of emotion. I gotta admit, some chapters might be pretty much untouched even if the bible is kept on a preacher's desk and has been handled every week for the last ten years; but some rabbis read through the Torah systematically and then start over from the beginning.
A gideon bible in a hotel room could have a whole lot of minor imprints.
What about assensing the shadows of cyberware? Or auras of bioware?
"If you could only see what I've seen with your eyes..." - Roy Batty in "Blade Runner"
Two words: Velveteen Rabbit. And the modern version, Toy Story.
Astral perception could be really useful for spotting smuggled goods: of all the boxes in the cargo shipment, look for the one packed with furtive, paranoid, control-freak care.
A bible that had been read by many people could hold wildly varying layers of emotion. I gotta admit, some chapters might be pretty much untouched even if the bible is kept on a preacher's desk and has been handled every week for the last ten years; but some rabbis read through the Torah systematically and then start over from the beginning.
A gideon bible in a hotel room could have a whole lot of minor imprints.
What about assensing the shadows of cyberware? Or auras of bioware?
"If you could only see what I've seen with your eyes..." - Roy Batty in "Blade Runner"
Two words: Velveteen Rabbit. And the modern version, Toy Story.
| QUOTE |
| Astral perception could be really useful for spotting smuggled goods: of all the boxes in the cargo shipment, look for the one packed with furtive, paranoid, control-freak care. |
Something tells me that it would take a little longer than that for a detectable charge to build up--what you're describing would fall under the description of a "Recently Handled Object" (pg 29), which means that any emotional charge on those boxes will fade, and fade quickly.
That's another point to consider--between the rules for "Recently Handled Objects" and Psychometry, we know that emotional charges fade and with a decent amount of speed, inverse logarithmically--we get a no minuses after using psychometry after less than a day, but after a few more days but less than a week we have a minus two, and with less than a month the modifier is now -4, nearly a year gives us a hefty minus 6, and past that and up to the first decade gives us a nasty minus eight modifier. Each additional decade past that--a time period of more than three and a half thousand times longer than the first time interval--gives us another minus two.
Astral Perception is a completely different sense with strong emotional context.
To mimic or convey what it's like, simply consider how one of your current available sense might be used instead of the primary one in certain situations.
Examples, blind person watching television. They can hear it, feel a warm television to tell it's on, but can't see the screen. They can glean a lot of information, but it's not the same information as someone who can see the screen.
Consider a deaf person at a loud rock concert. They can feel lots of people, see lots of people, see the musicians and the show, they could even feel the beat of the music, but they could not hear the words or tune.
Consider someone who cannot taste eating a meal, what do they perceive about it? Texture, heat, cold, but not the flavor.
In the end astral perception is a cool way to give information to the players in ways they don't normally receive it. Have fun with it.
To mimic or convey what it's like, simply consider how one of your current available sense might be used instead of the primary one in certain situations.
Examples, blind person watching television. They can hear it, feel a warm television to tell it's on, but can't see the screen. They can glean a lot of information, but it's not the same information as someone who can see the screen.
Consider a deaf person at a loud rock concert. They can feel lots of people, see lots of people, see the musicians and the show, they could even feel the beat of the music, but they could not hear the words or tune.
Consider someone who cannot taste eating a meal, what do they perceive about it? Texture, heat, cold, but not the flavor.
In the end astral perception is a cool way to give information to the players in ways they don't normally receive it. Have fun with it.
| QUOTE (Simon May) |
| So someone goes out and gets a copy of the Da Vinci Code, which many ignorant people believe to be a masterpiece, and reads it. The reader, being intelligent, finds it to be a piece of trash. Still emotionally charged? |
Regardless of the popularity of the Da Vinci Code, its text comes nowhere near as close in emotional significance to the Bible (or Qu'ran or other holy books). People do not memorize passages of the Da Vinci Code, engrave lines from it onto buildings, or weave its text into important oaths.
Pshh. Maybe you don't.
What about the Matrix chapter of SR4's BBB? 
My psychometric gleanings show... frustration.
There has been lots of great brainstorming about the emotional value of objects and their aura's staying power.
However, I feel that's one of those things that's gonna be case-to-case call by the GM. It is ultimately up to the GM on how much emotional "power" can be found in an item.
To rephrase my original question, consider this scenario: A team needs to scout out an office building. They need all the info they can get about security, layout, people, etc. Two of the most popular ways to do that are hacking in or astrally scouting.
A decker could hack in, but he has to defeat the matrix security, and risks getting traced back, or outright dumped from a shut-down. Security can quickly work to prevent him if he is spotted. "Someone's trying to learn our door passcodes? I want them changed now and every hour for the rest of the week!"
What does a mage have to do? Well, there *might* be a ward. And if it's really tough, there might be nasty spirits. But let's assume it's a standard office building, not a zero-zero zone. So there is very little to prevent someone from astrally wandering in. And there is little the corp can do to quickly adjust to things, unless a wagemage is on-site.
What if the scout is spotted?
A decker can get out quicker, unless Black Ice is involved. But if he is traced, you can bet the corp will coming for a nice visit, or at least notify the local Lone Star. Maybe even send a corp decker to come and mess up his own PAN.
A mage probably will have to deal with watcher spirits. They can't stop him from running. And, from what I have read, you can't really have a spirit multitask like a decker, it can't follow you and report back at the same time. And if it does somehow follow you back, it has the problem of trying to figure out where you are actually located. GPS really doesn't work in astral...
So astrally scouting is much, much safer. Is there are a trade-off? We have a pretty good idea what a decker can learn by utilizing security cameras, building blueprints, etc. What can a mage learn?
However, I feel that's one of those things that's gonna be case-to-case call by the GM. It is ultimately up to the GM on how much emotional "power" can be found in an item.
To rephrase my original question, consider this scenario: A team needs to scout out an office building. They need all the info they can get about security, layout, people, etc. Two of the most popular ways to do that are hacking in or astrally scouting.
A decker could hack in, but he has to defeat the matrix security, and risks getting traced back, or outright dumped from a shut-down. Security can quickly work to prevent him if he is spotted. "Someone's trying to learn our door passcodes? I want them changed now and every hour for the rest of the week!"
What does a mage have to do? Well, there *might* be a ward. And if it's really tough, there might be nasty spirits. But let's assume it's a standard office building, not a zero-zero zone. So there is very little to prevent someone from astrally wandering in. And there is little the corp can do to quickly adjust to things, unless a wagemage is on-site.
What if the scout is spotted?
A decker can get out quicker, unless Black Ice is involved. But if he is traced, you can bet the corp will coming for a nice visit, or at least notify the local Lone Star. Maybe even send a corp decker to come and mess up his own PAN.
A mage probably will have to deal with watcher spirits. They can't stop him from running. And, from what I have read, you can't really have a spirit multitask like a decker, it can't follow you and report back at the same time. And if it does somehow follow you back, it has the problem of trying to figure out where you are actually located. GPS really doesn't work in astral...
So astrally scouting is much, much safer. Is there are a trade-off? We have a pretty good idea what a decker can learn by utilizing security cameras, building blueprints, etc. What can a mage learn?
| QUOTE (Tinyemperor) |
| So astrally scouting is much, much safer. Is there are a trade-off? We have a pretty good idea what a decker can learn by utilizing security cameras, building blueprints, etc. What can a mage learn? |
There's a lot of soulless empty space in the soulless corporations building.
Imagine a blind person given free reign to climb around a building, what would they learn?
Where rooms and doors and windows are, where people and physical things are.
They can't read signs, they can't read directions, they can't read warnings.
As far as security, they might see someone punch in a combination, if a number pad still exists. Or see someone swipe a card. Btu it's entirely possible all security devices simply work wirelessly and through AR.
After that you can get creative and give whatever emotive context you like to make the game fun.
if he's sneaky and manifests... anything that you could get by physically walking around. Problem is with that approach, is that he can get spotted by one of the wageslaves.
Staying strictly from the astral, he won't be able to pick up much of use; like JBlades pointed out, it would have to be a code or other point that has emotional value--a random alphanumeric string passcode is going to be utterly incomprehensible to the astral mage. However, if, to use JBlades' example of a man using his wife's birthday as his passcode, he might be able to pick up on that.
Staying strictly from the astral, he won't be able to pick up much of use; like JBlades pointed out, it would have to be a code or other point that has emotional value--a random alphanumeric string passcode is going to be utterly incomprehensible to the astral mage. However, if, to use JBlades' example of a man using his wife's birthday as his passcode, he might be able to pick up on that.
| QUOTE (DireRadiant) |
| As far as security, they might see someone punch in a combination, if a number pad still exists. Or see someone swipe a card. |
But numbers aren't legible. They couldn't see the code punched in. They might be able to see a pattern, but are small button discernable or does the keypad show up as a singular shadow?
I generally play the latter at least to prevent mages from running off and astrally scouting for 30-45 minutes every time the team needs to do something. Plus, as far as I'm concerned, you couldn't tell, shadows are just that: shadows. There's no definition to shadows, just general shapes, meaning that unless the object is invariably large, you shouldn't be able to figure out what it is.
Take for example a desk covered with papers, a stapler, pens, change, a keyboard and all sorts of other crap. You could see that the desk is a desk because of where it is and its size, but you wouldn't be able to count how many drawers are on it. And all the crap on top would blend in pretty significantly. Of course, maybe the picture of the wife glows a little, meaning the light will make the shadows even dimmer and harder to make out by comparison, but at least then you know a photo is there. Perhaps the stapler is a swingline and has some special significance, thereby glowing slightly as well. Any way you look at it, the details will be extremely fuzzy without a specific assensing roll, and even then, they're shadows and essentially unimportant to the astrally perceptive.
| QUOTE (Simon May @ Nov 12 2007, 05:28 PM) | ||
But numbers aren't legible. They couldn't see the code punched in. They might be able to see a pattern, but are small button discernable or does the keypad show up as a singular shadow? |
Go to your phone. Punch the bottom right button once, then the top left one twice.
I don't need to see the numbers to know what will happen.
But like I said, I would expect a more modern interface not to have actual buttons. I just pointed out some possibilities and examples.
There's no strict mapping between astral shadows and the mundane other then the physical space so you can feel free to add whatever flavor you want that will make your game fun for your players.
| QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Nov 13 2007, 03:21 PM) |
| Punch the bottom right button once, then the top left one twice. I don't need to see the numbers to know what will happen. |
# - 1 - 1 will not connect me to who you think it will.
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
# - 1 - 1 will not connect me to who you think it will. |
No, but notice you figured it out anyway.
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