Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Hacking/Commlink questions
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Sponge
I know the rules in the book are a "little" weird for Hacking, and a lot of people seem to be using alternate rules (and I will be as well, as soon as I finish working on them) but I wanted to ask a couple questions anyways about the rules as written:

First question: Hacking (and other "hacker skills") defaults to Logic. For a straight Hacking test, this seems fine, but what happens when you're using a Program? Does someone without Hacking, trying to use an Exploit program, get to substitute their logic?

I see two possible answers: The character rolls Rating - 1 for the test, or the character rolls Rating + (Logic - 1) for the test. If I were using the rules as they're written, I'd choose the first one, as it's the least prone to outright breakage, but it really highlights the innate nonsensical nature of the rules. Mind you, the other interpretation does an equally good job of that - the best Hackers would be those without any Hacking skills and maxed out Logic.... I'd still like to fish for opinions on it though.

My second question is murkier (to me, anyways). Upgrading the Response and Signal chips of a commlink (or other device) seems to cost the same regardless of where you're starting from - which makes sense, since you're just pulling out the chips and slapping in new ones (delicately, one would presume).

What, then, is the advantage of buying any Commlink beyond the first $100 one? It seems cheaper to upgrade the cheapest commink to the desired ratings than it is to buy it pre-made off the shelf. What else does one get for an $8000 Fairlight Caliban? A fancier velcro strap? Bundled software? A stylish casing? Is there some limit to upgrading a commlink in the rules that I missed somewhere, and you need a higher-end base model to start from?

If there isn't, I'd probably implement such a rule - but at the same time I'd probably also allow a character to buy the base components (the commlink's "motherboard" and case, if you will) and install custom Response/Signal chips in that directly rather than having to buy a complete commlink that they're going to rip the chips out of and implant in their heads anyways.

DS
Cheops
1) According to the FAQ anything that is Skill + Program the skill is the Attribute. I regard an Attribute of 0 as unable to default to that. So essentially any action that is Skill + Program instead of Attribute + Skill is not defaultable. Try reading the FAQ as well as the BBB since a lot of people around here don't seem to do that.

2) This all depends on what the GM in your game decides to do for commlinks. I allow players to start with 100% custom commlinks so they just pay for the rating they get and don't have to pay for off the shelf packaging. Other people play it differently. You might want to check SR Missions at the SR4 website for a semi-official ruling on this.
DigitalMage
QUOTE (Cheops)
1) According to the FAQ anything that is Skill + Program the skill is the Attribute. I regard an Attribute of 0 as unable to default to that. So essentially any action that is Skill + Program instead of Attribute + Skill is not defaultable. Try reading the FAQ as well as the BBB since a lot of people around here don't seem to do that.

Could you provide the exact quote from the FAQ where it says this as I am having trouble finding it.

The closest I get is "In cases where a program would apply, but isn't available, the character must default." but it isn't clear on what it would default to. Anyway, that seems to be talking about when you don't have a program, not when you don't have the skill as the OP was asking.

In regards to the OP's question, I would argue is you haev a program but no skill, you just follow the normal defaulting rules - roll the attribute only with a -1 penalty (SR4 p54) and as the program acts as the attribute, you basically roll Program Rating-1. Which makes sense as you are just letting the program do all the work without any guidance.

This sort of fits in with the rules for when your persona has to do something but the hacker's attention is elsewhere:
SR4 p218:
If there’s ever any need to make a test for a persona in a node that the user has accessed but is not currently “active� in (in other words, his attention is focused on his persona’s activities in another node), then the tests should only use the appropriate program rating or computer attribute, and not the user’s skill.
Cheops
QUOTE (DigitalMage)
QUOTE (Cheops @ Nov 12 2007, 05:28 PM)
1) According to the FAQ anything that is Skill + Program the skill is the Attribute.  I regard an Attribute of 0 as unable to default to that.  So essentially any action that is Skill + Program instead of Attribute + Skill is not defaultable.  Try reading the FAQ as well as the BBB since a lot of people around here don't seem to do that.

Could you provide the exact quote from the FAQ where it says this as I am having trouble finding it.

The closest I get is "In cases where a program would apply, but isn't available, the character must default." but it isn't clear on what it would default to. Anyway, that seems to be talking about when you don't have a program, not when you don't have the skill as the OP was asking.

In regards to the OP's question, I would argue is you haev a program but no skill, you just follow the normal defaulting rules - roll the attribute only with a -1 penalty (SR4 p54) and as the program acts as the attribute, you basically roll Program Rating-1. Which makes sense as you are just letting the program do all the work without any guidance.

This sort of fits in with the rules for when your persona has to do something but the hacker's attention is elsewhere:
SR4 p218:
If there’s ever any need to make a test for a persona in a node that the user has accessed but is not currently “active� in (in other words, his attention is focused on his persona’s activities in another node), then the tests should only use the appropriate program rating or computer attribute, and not the user’s skill.

It doesn't explicitly state that in the BBB. Hence why I used "I regard" in my second sentence.

You believe that the Program is the attribute, I believe it is the skill. Neither of us is right or wrong by the RAW (BBB/errata/FAQ). What the FAQ does say is that attributes cannot be used for anything that involves a program so that interpretation is right out the window.

I personally prefer the default to skill since that gets rid of script kiddie/mage hacker problems that a lot of people seem to have. If you don't know how to use the program then the program isn't going to help you much.
Nightwalker450
What does Signal Rating mean? Is it send and receive, meaning for two devices to communicate both devices need to have Signal rating high enough to reach each other. If they don't than neither can communicate with the other?

So if a jamming is thrown up, it doesn't matter if one team member has the signal/ECCM to beat it he'll be a one man party if nothing else in the area can produce enough of a signal.

RFID tags are easily hidden by a jammer (Another forum already discussed this), but to even track them they need to be within 3m (don't have book for exact) of a wireless node. So I think they would be constantly blipping in and out of existance if someone was walking down the street... Unless that person had a wireless commlink then they would probably be using his signal to jump.
Simon May
That's what the book says. If signal rating 0 is 3 meters and signal rating 1 is 10 meters, for a device with a signal rating of 1 to communicate with a device signal rating 0, they must be within 3 meters of each other.
Fortune
QUOTE (Simon May @ Nov 14 2007, 07:34 AM)
... for a device with a signal rating of 1 to communicate with a device signal rating 0, they must be within 3 meters of each other.

Or the Signal 1 device has to be within 10 meters of a device that is within range to a device that is within range to a device that is within range to a device that is within range to a device that is within range to a device that is within range to a device that is within 3 meters of the signal 0 device.
Nightwalker450
rotfl.gif I get the idea Fortune.

Most non-private nodes allow signal bouncing, and if you're taking public transportation you're tracked. Your car they'd have to hack into the node to follow. Bouncing off commlinks node follows the same principal, but most public places have repeaters and signal amps enough to skip the commlink bouncing for the most part.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Simon May @ Nov 13 2007, 04:34 PM)
That's what the book says. If signal rating 0 is 3 meters and signal rating 1 is 10 meters, for a device with a signal rating of 1 to communicate with a device signal rating 0, they must be within 3 meters of each other.

For two way communication yes.

For one way, probably not.

p. 213

"Note that for two devices to communicate with each other
(as opposed to one-way communication), the devices must be
within the range of the weakest signal rating involved."
Nightwalker450
Aaah, the book actually says that!? I was trying to avoid that confusion altogether, so which way does info go?

Is your signal your input, or is the signal the output?

It could be input you can't read from anything outside of that range which would make the most sense, otherwise all those low signal implants could easily be hacked from anywhere. But if such were the case you could still output your information/your side of a conversation. And the unjammed person in the group would know what everyone was doing just couldn't get information back to them. But with this also if you were jammed, you could still pilot your drones you'd just have to do so blindly (or through standard vision if they were within sight).
Simon May
Think of it this way: when you download something, you send a request to the site to get information, the site then responds by sending the information. In Shadowrun, if you send a request for data from too far away, the response simply won't register on your end, so your comm will think the other side doesn't actually exist. Even if you're simply offering instructions, a response saying "I got it" is necessary. This is what, back in the modem days, was called a handshake.
raverbane
I had a question that falls under this. I did a search and couldnt find a 'straight' answer. But, there was tons of pages to sort through and I might have missed it.

Datajacks.

Except for having headwear memory, secure 'hardwire' data transmission and running BTL chips. Is there anything else a datajack can do that couldn't be duplicated by a 'trode set and comlink w/ simsense?
Cheops
QUOTE (raverbane)
I had a question that falls under this. I did a search and couldnt find a 'straight' answer. But, there was tons of pages to sort through and I might have missed it.

Datajacks.

Except for having headwear memory, secure 'hardwire' data transmission and running BTL chips. Is there anything else a datajack can do that couldn't be duplicated by a 'trode set and comlink w/ simsense?

No
raverbane
QUOTE (Cheops)
QUOTE (raverbane @ Nov 13 2007, 10:46 PM)
I had a question that falls under this.  I did a search and couldnt find a 'straight' answer.  But, there was tons of pages to sort through and I might have missed it.

Datajacks. 

Except for having headwear memory, secure 'hardwire' data transmission and running BTL chips.  Is there anything else a datajack can do that couldn't be duplicated by a 'trode set and comlink w/ simsense?

No

Thanks alot for the clear answer. wink.gif

It is a rarity!!

Cheops
np
Buster
Short answer, but not entirely correct. The datajack only replaces the trodenet, you still need a commlink+simmodule either way.
FrankTrollman
The FAQ says that if you don't have an appropriate program you "have to default".
The Rules say that if you don't have the skill, then you have to default.
Defaulting is defined as rolling the linked attribute in question with a -1 dice pool penalty. The Linked Attribute for Hacking is Logic.

Both programs and skills are generally rated 1-6. Logic is rated 1-9. Logic is, in any character who actually cares, substantially larger than either programs or skills can be. Which means that "defaulting" to Logic is actually good any time you would be allowed to do it (as the normal rules involve you rolling your Logic times zero instead of your Logic minus one).

It is indeed a mess. If Programs are supposed to be a requirement, or even desirable, the wording about "defaulting" without programs shouldn't exist. But it does, leaving us all to just silently shake our heads when contemplating what the hell the Matrix authors actually meant. Of course, they did not mean "one thing" there are quite definitely more than one opinion being represented in that chapter on how things are supposed to work.

I don't like the Program + Skill paradigm. And well, it's really obvious that I'm not alone since there are large sections of the book and FAQ which are not really compatible with it.

-Frank
deek
Its already been covered in other threads that there were two sets of "minds" writing that chapter. One set thought hacking was attribute + skill and the other thought it was program + skill...

Point is, let's not beat a dead horse with the same arguments over and over. "They" know that there are two premises within the chapter...
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (deek)
Its already been covered in other threads that there were two sets of "minds" writing that chapter. One set thought hacking was attribute + skill and the other thought it was program + skill...

Point is, let's not beat a dead horse with the same arguments over and over. "They" know that there are two premises within the chapter...

Indeed, but the point remains that as defined there are two different things you can default on when attempting to Exploit. You can default on not having the Hacking skill, and you can default on not having the Exploit Program. However, the rules for Defaulting suggest that the number of dice you would be "left" with in the case of defaulting on either would frequently be expected to be larger than the number of dice you might have were you to not default.

Which means that the question "What the heck happens when you default on a hacking attempt?" is still an open question. One can assume that if you don't have the Hacking skill that you either roll Exploit or Exploit - 1; but once you assume that it does appear that defaulting on not having the Exploit program replaces the program with Logic - 1: a quantity which is very likely to exceed the maximum program rating available in the book.

Which means that it is a very valid reading of the rules that a simple majority of programs are actually worthless to a high-end hacker. And since people can and do make flavor arguments either way I am not willing to say that there weren't authors working on the Matrix rules who wrote them like that on purpose.

-Frank
Blade
QUOTE ("FrankTrollman")
One can assume that if you don't have the Hacking skill that you either roll Exploit or Exploit - 1; but once you assume that it does appear that defaulting on not having the Exploit program replaces the program with Logic - 1: a quantity which is very likely to exceed the maximum program rating available in the book.


I don't know about you, but when my assumptions lead me to something which doesn't make sense, I start questioning my assumptions before questioning the facts.
And if there's another reading of the rules that doesn't lead to that problem, I'd conclude that this reading is valid and the other one wasn't.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Blade)
QUOTE ("FrankTrollman")
One can assume that if you don't have the Hacking skill that you either roll Exploit or Exploit - 1; but once you assume that it does appear that defaulting on not having the Exploit program replaces the program with Logic - 1: a quantity which is very likely to exceed the maximum program rating available in the book.


I don't know about you, but when my assumptions lead me to something which doesn't make sense, I start questioning my assumptions before questioning the facts.
And if there's another reading of the rules that doesn't lead to that problem, I'd conclude that this reading is valid and the other one wasn't.

But there isn't an interpretation that doesn't lead to things that make little or no sense. It's the Matrix Rules, they include straight up contradictions in multiple places. And as we know, you can logically conclude from any contradiction... anything you want (at least in Sentential Logic, not in Rule Logic).

There is no consistent reading of the rules that would allow you to default on a skill and default on the program without having something weird happen. Whether you regard very smart people not needing programs to be an undesirable sort of weird or not is entirely a flavor concern.

-Frank
Nightwalker450
[Note: I don't have the book on me, but just going on what I've read and can remember]

I don't think your able to default on not having the program. If you don't have the program than your unable to perform the task. The only time you use attribute + skill is if you are doing something generic, writing software, configuring hardware, setting up a signal scanner (Electronic warfare), etc...

The defaulting on the skill, would be program - 1. But this seems like it could be a problem. The problem being the command program. If you can remote a med unit, you can roll your command program -1 for a heal test, -2 as well for working remotely. So you have 3 dice for a heal test on default with a 6 rating program. Not too obscene, unless its a technomancer threading a rating 12 command program, now I have 9 dice on a default. Its a program that also allows me to pilot anything, fire weapon mounts, and anything else I can remote control. The most useless program to everyone, suddenly becomes the Technomancers do everything skill. With caps on hits due to skill this is easily put in place, but just throwing this out there.
Dashifen
I must admit that you've lost me, Frank, with your defaulting to Exploit or Exploit - 1 that you mention above. I always make hacking defaults Logic - 1, no program and no skills help out. That seems to solve the problem and follow the rules for defaulting as best as I can see.
Blade
I consider (and if I remember correctly, the BBB says that too) that in the Matrix the skill is used like an Attribute and the program is used like the skill.

So when you don't have the program, you default on skill-1 and when you don't have the skill, you roll the skill (0 if you're not incompetent)+program rating.
I don't think it's broken, inconsistent or stupid... But I kinda understand that some people prefer to use broken solutions so that they can whine, bitch and rant about it.
Buster
Frank's right according to the clarifications in the FAQ. The ONLY way to use Logic in a matrix test is when no program applies to what you're trying to do (like hack an alien computer system). If a program applies to what you're doing, you use Skill + Program. If no program applies, you use Skill + Logic. If you have no skill, you default to only Program-1 (if it applies) or Logic-1 (if no program applies).

If you want to hack a commlink's communication, but don't have any programs or skills, you'd roll 0 dice even if you had Logic 8. So yes, the matrix rules are completely inconsistent with the rest of the rules because the matrix is the only place where your attributes are never counted for any task you may encounter.

QUOTE (FAQ)
Are programs optional? It says to use Computer or Hacking skill + Logic when "interacting with a device," but to use Computer or Hacking skill + program rating when using a program. So can I just use Logic, or is computer use/hacking impossible without programs?

In most circumstances, you will be using Computer/Hacking + program rating. In cases where a program would apply, but isn't available, the character must default.

Logic is used when you are utilizing a device within its standard parameters (Computer) or trying to bypass those parameters through the device's own OS (Hacking). For example, let's say your character finds an unfamiliar electronic device in a research lab. Computer + Logic would be used to identify the device, figure out what it is, and figure out how to turn it on. Let's say that device happened to be a new holo projector prototype. Computer + Logic would also be used to determine what features it has and how to use them. If the character wanted to bypass the controls that prevent the projector from playing pirated movies, porn, or media feeds from unapproved Matrix nodes, he would use Hacking + Logic. If he wanted to take it apart and see how it worked, he would use Hardware + Logic. If he wanted to edit a holo media file, analyze the device's Firewall, or search its usage log, he would use a program (Edit, Analyze, and Browse, respectively).
deek
Buster, what you just said is different from what Frank said a few posts back. Your clarifying point of Logic - 1 (if no program applies) is quite an important one. That means that hackers with high logic can't just go running around with no programs. If a task requires a program, then you are not defaulting with your logic, per RAW.

While convoluted, it does make sense once you really sit down and run some examples...
FrankTrollman
deek, how exactly are you getting to defaulting requiring a program in the example that the FAQ says that you must default if you don't have the appropriate program?

The FAQ unambiguously says that if an action requires a program and you don't have that program, that you use the Defaulting rules. The defaulting rules are that you use the linked attribute at a -1 penalty. The linked attribute is Logic.

QUOTE (Blade)
I consider (and if I remember correctly, the BBB says that too) that in the Matrix the skill is used like an Attribute and the program is used like the skill.
You are free to consider that if you want. I know for example that I don't treat the basic book rules as inviolate. But the BBB seriously doesn't say anything like that:

QUOTE (BBB @ p. 208)
Matrix skill tests use the same skill + attribute dice pool as other tests, except that since you are interfacing with the machine world, you use use the appropriate device or program attribute in place of your character's attribute.


Which is the core of all of this craziness. There isn't any rule for defaulting on not having an attribute since that's normally impossible. And yet, the FAQ clearly and unambiguously says that you actually can default when you don't have the attribute. And the rules are that when you default you go to the skill's linked attribute.

Which gives us an unlimited number of interpretations. One of them is that you follow the rules on page 110 and throw Logic at a -1 penalty in place of having the program. One of them is that you follow the rule on 110 and the rule on page 208 and don't roll any dice at all (making the use of the word "default" a complete misnomer since your entire dicepool is based on the rating of an item we already established that you did not have). And there are a number of other options where people have just made shit up like pretending that attributes are skills and skills are attributes while resolving the default.

Some of these interpretations make it so that you will occassionally be well served to just not load a program on account of rolling more dice without. Some of these interpretations make it so that you just ignore the statement that you can default at all since in reality you don't roll any dice while attempting to do so. Some of them make lacking a program a minor or severely crippling penalty.

And you know what? Not one of them can unambiguously be stated to be right or wrong because this is a section of the rules which doesn't make much sense and isn't good.

-Frank
deek
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
deek, how exactly are you getting to defaulting requiring a program in the example that the FAQ says that you must default if you don't have the appropriate program?

Frank, let me re-read the FAQ and give you my opinion.

I replied to Buster based on him saying you were "right" and then backed that up with comments that contradicted what you had posted...

I then added a confusing last sentence, making it sound like I was referencing my interpretation of the FAQ, but in reality, I was referencing Buster's post...
Sponge
Thanks everyone for the replies so far, it's interesting to get some different viewpoints.

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
The FAQ unambiguously says that if an action requires a program and you don't have that program, that you use the Defaulting rules. The defaulting rules are that you use the linked attribute at a -1 penalty.


Indeed. It reads:

QUOTE (SR4 FAQ)
In most circumstances, you will be using Computer/Hacking + program rating. In cases where a program would apply, but isn't available, the character must default.


QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
The linked attribute is Logic.


I think this is where it's unclear. The "linked attribute" in the Skill + Program test isn't Logic, it's the Program, as you quoted yourself (alternate emphasis mine):

QUOTE (SR4 p208)
Matrix skill tests use the same skill + attribute dice pool as other tests, except that since you are interfacing with the machine world, you use use the appropriate device or program attribute in place of your character's attribute.


However, as has been mentioned, the rulebook simply doesn't cover the case where the character has the Skill, but not the Program. The sensible thing to do, which makes use of the defaulting rules at least in spirit, is apply the rule in reverse, and use Skill - 1 as the roll. This is similar to the case I wrote about in the OP, and this interpretation is less silly than defaulting to the Skill's linked Attribute and getting more dice than you would have had otherwise.

While it's certainly interesting to examine how the rules might be interpreted in different ways (and educational in how to avoid writing ambiguous rules), unless you're trying to get feedback on some new rules you've come up with, ultimately the objective is to play the game, not to dissect the rules. I'd much rather use an interpretation that followed common sense rather than an interpretation that permitted nonsensical cases (because the latter will simply cause more headaches when the GM has to smack down someone actually trying to use those cases).

DS
Buster
QUOTE (Sponge)
Indeed. It reads:

QUOTE (SR4 FAQ)
In most circumstances, you will be using Computer/Hacking + program rating. In cases where a program would apply, but isn't available, the character must default.


Yeah but the example in the FAQ seems to contradict that line. The FAQ even contradicts itself!
Sponge
QUOTE (Buster)
QUOTE (Sponge @ Nov 14 2007, 05:33 PM)
Indeed.  It reads:

QUOTE (SR4 FAQ)
In most circumstances, you will be using Computer/Hacking + program rating. In cases where a program would apply, but isn't available, the character must default.


Yeah but the example in the FAQ seems to contradict that line. The FAQ even contradicts itself!

Are we reading the same FAQ? I don't even see any examples of defaulting on a Skill + Program test.

The link I'm reading is http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml .

DS
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012