Hello,
one of my PC wants to play a Animal Trainer. I created some house rules what kind of knowledge and aktive skills she need to know, and translated the "cyberware for critters" SR3 into SR4. The problem we have is how money and what kind of availability I shall set for misc Paracritter.
Example:
Barghest
Hellhound
Talis Cat.
Full Version: Paracritters and Players
When something is bought and sold by many people, buyers can compare prices, sellers can compare offers, and according to Adam Smith type economics, a "fair market price" emerges. If you ask $2 for a can of soda, I go buy from the guy selling at $1. Eventually, most people sell at $1. Until something changes.
When very few people have something for sale, and very few people WANT to buy it, then it's harder to compare one offer with another. Maybe last week someone had a barghest stuck up a tree in their back yard, and said you could have it for free if you came to pick it up. Maybe today someone has a barghest in a cage and offers it for 10K. Well, at the moment, 10K is the only price on the market. If you counter-offer 1K, and no one else is buying, then he can sell at 1K or he can keep the barghest. But if someone else offers 9K, the seller can take the 9K and your option to buy just ended, or the seller can try to get a bidding war started between you and the guy with 9K.
xkcd.com/325/
That said... availability in the military range, 14 or 16 or so. Who gives permits for individuals to own critters with the Fear power? The neighborhood association may object!
When very few people have something for sale, and very few people WANT to buy it, then it's harder to compare one offer with another. Maybe last week someone had a barghest stuck up a tree in their back yard, and said you could have it for free if you came to pick it up. Maybe today someone has a barghest in a cage and offers it for 10K. Well, at the moment, 10K is the only price on the market. If you counter-offer 1K, and no one else is buying, then he can sell at 1K or he can keep the barghest. But if someone else offers 9K, the seller can take the 9K and your option to buy just ended, or the seller can try to get a bidding war started between you and the guy with 9K.
xkcd.com/325/
That said... availability in the military range, 14 or 16 or so. Who gives permits for individuals to own critters with the Fear power? The neighborhood association may object!
What he said.
For game balance, it shouldn't be cheap, or cripplingly expensive. Try comparing them in power level to a drone, and deriving price that way. It's not a great method, since critters and drones are mechanically very different, but using just a general sense of power level, it should work fine. If unsure, err on the side of expensive.
For game balance, it shouldn't be cheap, or cripplingly expensive. Try comparing them in power level to a drone, and deriving price that way. It's not a great method, since critters and drones are mechanically very different, but using just a general sense of power level, it should work fine. If unsure, err on the side of expensive.
I'd actually go slightly cheaper, just because there's going to be maintenance involved with critters that isn't involved with drones. Drones never get ticked off and try to get out of their cages, nor do they ever starve. I could be totally off base, but I'd imagine critters are MUCH harder to keep than drones. Just my 2 
Comparing them to drones is a good starting point, IMO.
Critters will likely have a lifestyle cost - albeit low for a single barghest, higher for something with a very complicated diet. Doing it legally would probably raise it a lifestyle level to cover the licensing fees and maintaining whatever codes cover sheltering something as dangerous as an awakened critter.
I'd run it like building as well, and if the PC picks up the critter wild, then it should be significantly cheaper, just like buying raw materials.
Critters will likely have a lifestyle cost - albeit low for a single barghest, higher for something with a very complicated diet. Doing it legally would probably raise it a lifestyle level to cover the licensing fees and maintaining whatever codes cover sheltering something as dangerous as an awakened critter.
I'd run it like building as well, and if the PC picks up the critter wild, then it should be significantly cheaper, just like buying raw materials.
I wouldn't worry too much about maintenance costs, since it's not really something that's dealt with in the system. Vehicles don't require regular maintenance costs. You just assume it's part of the lifestyle costs.
If you like, you might say that each lifestyle level allows a certain number of critters (especially large or small critters might count as multiple or fractional amounts). It really just depends how much you care.
If you like, you might say that each lifestyle level allows a certain number of critters (especially large or small critters might count as multiple or fractional amounts). It really just depends how much you care.
| QUOTE (Eryk the Red) |
| I wouldn't worry too much about maintenance costs, since it's not really something that's dealt with in the system. Vehicles don't require regular maintenance costs. |
That may very well change with the release of Arsenal.
| QUOTE (Eryk the Red) |
| I wouldn't worry too much about maintenance costs, since it's not really something that's dealt with in the system. Vehicles don't require regular maintenance costs. You just assume it's part of the lifestyle costs. If you like, you might say that each lifestyle level allows a certain number of critters (especially large or small critters might count as multiple or fractional amounts). It really just depends how much you care. |
The point I was making was that there's probably a difference in cost between letting an army of drones sit on the racks in your van, and keeping a bizarre menagerie of miasmae, hellhounds, and what-have-you in your garage. I'm not sure lifestyle costs are assumed to cover the costs of a running a bestiary, legal or not. And while I welcome the idea of maintenance costs being included in Arsenal (assuming, of course, that the rules themselves are good and not crappy), I'd be truly shocked if Arsenal amended the lifestyle rules to allow for the monetary value of whatever a barghest eats in a month.
| QUOTE (CircuitBoyBlue @ Nov 15 2007, 09:30 AM) |
| I'd be truly shocked if Arsenal amended the lifestyle rules to allow for the monetary value of whatever a barghest eats in a month. |
I was referring more to upkeep/maintenance costs for vehicles and drones.
| QUOTE (CircuitBoyBlue) |
| I'd be truly shocked if Arsenal amended the lifestyle rules to allow for the monetary value of whatever a barghest eats in a month. |
Well, it's basically a big dog. Judging from what a 50 pound bag of dog food goes for at Costco, one isn't going be that bad. A pack of 12 is going to get kind of steep...
Hellhound vs. Doberman, now that's a comparison!
Well, if you also keep a pack of devil rats, you may sometimes have spare devil rats to feed to your hellhound pack, and you can probably keep a pack of devil rats fed with restaurant kitchen scraps.
Can hellhounds use their fire breath all day long without Drain? If so, can you use them to power a steam turbine generator, to keep your drones fully charged for free?
Seriously, though, if you go looking for a black market LMG, you're starting from 2K nuyen,
and it might actually be realistic (as well as Gygaxian) to start with "roll three dice, add the total, multiply by 100" for what prices are on the market this week for a hellhound.
Well, if you also keep a pack of devil rats, you may sometimes have spare devil rats to feed to your hellhound pack, and you can probably keep a pack of devil rats fed with restaurant kitchen scraps.
Can hellhounds use their fire breath all day long without Drain? If so, can you use them to power a steam turbine generator, to keep your drones fully charged for free?
Seriously, though, if you go looking for a black market LMG, you're starting from 2K nuyen,
and it might actually be realistic (as well as Gygaxian) to start with "roll three dice, add the total, multiply by 100" for what prices are on the market this week for a hellhound.
| QUOTE (Riley37) |
| Can hellhounds use their fire breath all day long without Drain? If so, can you use them to power a steam turbine generator, to keep your drones fully charged for free? |
I've always tried to stay as close as possible to the rule that matter is neither created or destroyed (except the magic system breaks it a lot, something that I begrudgingly accept). That is to say, for a Hell Hound to breathe enough fire to power a steam engine or a Megalodon to regenerate its own body over and over, they have to consume roughly enough food to produce that amount of energy/mass. Magic gives them a bit of an edge in this regard, but it doesn't allow you to strap two hell hounds to the back of your car and make it a rocket.
There was a line in Cyberpirates to the effect that world hunger could be solved by one megalodon; you cut meat off, it immediately regenerates, and so you have an infinite supply of meat. And it mentions the reason people don't do this is they are too squeamish. I say they don't do it because its a dumb idea. You can't get more meat out of a megalodon than you're putting into the megalodon. You could have a mage cast Sustenence on the meg, but at that point you have a mage continually casting on a giant awakened shark in an aquarium/meat packing plant. That's no way to make money.
The other thing this topic makes me think of is how every so often, usually in New York, you hear about a guy living in a one bedroom apartment with like a Bengal tiger and two cape cobras. That just seems like a really tense living arrangement to me. So a guy having a pack of barghests in his house is no weirder than that.
Lastly, going back to Paranormal Animals of North America, hell hounds in captivity didn't express their flame breath power. Has that been updated? Did they figure out how to turn their pilot lights on? If so, was it ever mentioned in the books or was this a quiet update/oversight?
They've already begun slowly adding rules in for it, apparently in preparation for Project X In The Distant Future (Even If They Say It's Soon -- They Lie). Namely the Tailored Critter Pheromones and rules for Biodrones. Currently there aren't any sound rules for actually having one; anything you come up with will be easily broken or inconsistant simply due to how powerful certain critter powers are.
The only thing to do is sit down, talk with your player, figure out what he wants, and then come up with custom tailored house rules that are as balanced as you can come up. It all depends on the type of critter, how he wants to use them, how he wants to go about keeping them, and everything else. Trying to balance a Barghest, for instance, is completely different from trying to balance a Blackberry Cat. So... you're basically on your own.
The only thing to do is sit down, talk with your player, figure out what he wants, and then come up with custom tailored house rules that are as balanced as you can come up. It all depends on the type of critter, how he wants to use them, how he wants to go about keeping them, and everything else. Trying to balance a Barghest, for instance, is completely different from trying to balance a Blackberry Cat. So... you're basically on your own.
I'd compare the current costs of purebred dogs, and up them somewhat to reflect the magical nature of the animals in question. I think a high-end show dog runs for about $1500, so that'd be a good starting point.
In general, if you need the price of something, you can look up the cost of its real-world equivalent and use that.
In general, if you need the price of something, you can look up the cost of its real-world equivalent and use that.
Well, a dog from a show line maybe. Ones that have a winning record are much more. A puppy from a line seems to go for 500 to 1000 plus. And a fully trained working dog can be really expensive, tens of thousands. Which is less than what I'd expect a socialized and trained barghest would cost.
| QUOTE (Riley37) |
| Hellhound vs. Doberman, now that's a comparison! Well, if you also keep a pack of devil rats, you may sometimes have spare devil rats to feed to your hellhound pack, and you can probably keep a pack of devil rats fed with restaurant kitchen scraps. Can hellhounds use their fire breath all day long without Drain? If so, can you use them to power a steam turbine generator, to keep your drones fully charged for free? Seriously, though, if you go looking for a black market LMG, you're starting from 2K nuyen, and it might actually be realistic (as well as Gygaxian) to start with "roll three dice, add the total, multiply by 100" for what prices are on the market this week for a hellhound. |
I like this post a lot because I agree with it, and it's witty, AND it gets extra points for the term "Gygaxian."
Seriously, the algebraeic formulae involved in keeping animals, especially of different types, and of varying numbers in varying stages of growth, are way beyond me. I was merely saying that it is probably an ongoing factor to consider, rather than the normal rigger schtick of just keeping drones on a shelf. I'd much rather have 2 dobermans hanging out in my lair than 2 hellhounds (you know, from a laziness perspective).
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