This video is causing a bit of a stir.Link
The video is roughly 9 min long
Full Story can be found here
The other link
Full Version: How leathal is Non-leathal
your second link leads to the front page of an online paper, not to any specific article.
as far as tasers and other 'non-lethal' measures go, well, they're not non-lethal. the term that should be used is less-lethal, because that's what they are. any application of force against a human has the potential to be lethal. less-lethal measures simply have a greater capacity for stopping the target without causing permanent injury.
as far as tasers and other 'non-lethal' measures go, well, they're not non-lethal. the term that should be used is less-lethal, because that's what they are. any application of force against a human has the potential to be lethal. less-lethal measures simply have a greater capacity for stopping the target without causing permanent injury.
Look under Web extras.
Most of what are called "non-lethal" weapons are really less likely to cause injuries resulting in death. These include shotgun bean bags, wood battons, tear gas, peper spray etc.
<obligtory slap at SR stupidity>
You'll notice that nobody in the ENTIRE world has decided to use bullets fired out of regular handguns that are supposed to not injure the target. The insanity of "Gel Rounds" are pretty obvious to the casual observer.
</obligtory slap at SR stupidity>
Tasers are far less likely to cause death than most of other techniques of apprehending violently combative people. Beating them with a two foot steel rod or having them bitten by a large angry dog are alternative that usually appears on the same level of the use of force continuum.
People have died after being shot with tasers. Often they are people who are acting combative and nuts because they have taken large amounts of meth and/or cocaine. This is typically called excited delirium
A chunk of an article
The subject officers confront, often on a property damage or unusual behavior call, will be "acting in a bizarre manner, often partially clothed or naked," Lawrence reports. He will likely be incoherent or speaking in gibberish or what seems to be another language. He'll be yelling or screaming loudly, seem to be disoriented or hallucinating and may be foaming at the mouth or drooling. He may be sweating profusely or the opposite, his body temperature soaring and uncooled by perspiration. Glass often will somehow be involved in the encounter, reason unknown.
Usually ED symptoms are well underway when officers arrive, but lately Lawrence has found instances in which a subject is speaking calmly and rationally with officers and then suddenly explodes into ED. However the onset occurs, the condition, while relatively rare, is always high-risk, he stresses.
As officers try to gain physical control of the subject, his "extraordinary strength" will be "a central feature of the struggle." Several officers will be needed to overcome his determined resistance and immunity to pain.
"During the restraint process, the subject will often be grunting and making animal-like noises."
The biggest problem may come after he is controlled - when, after struggling against restraint, there may come "a period of sudden tranquility." At this point, Lawrence says, "the officers realize the subject has stopped breathing. Invariably resuscitation efforts fail."
http://www.southernnevadahealthdistrict.or...ed_delirium.htm
<obligtory slap at SR stupidity>
You'll notice that nobody in the ENTIRE world has decided to use bullets fired out of regular handguns that are supposed to not injure the target. The insanity of "Gel Rounds" are pretty obvious to the casual observer.
</obligtory slap at SR stupidity>
Tasers are far less likely to cause death than most of other techniques of apprehending violently combative people. Beating them with a two foot steel rod or having them bitten by a large angry dog are alternative that usually appears on the same level of the use of force continuum.
People have died after being shot with tasers. Often they are people who are acting combative and nuts because they have taken large amounts of meth and/or cocaine. This is typically called excited delirium
A chunk of an article
The subject officers confront, often on a property damage or unusual behavior call, will be "acting in a bizarre manner, often partially clothed or naked," Lawrence reports. He will likely be incoherent or speaking in gibberish or what seems to be another language. He'll be yelling or screaming loudly, seem to be disoriented or hallucinating and may be foaming at the mouth or drooling. He may be sweating profusely or the opposite, his body temperature soaring and uncooled by perspiration. Glass often will somehow be involved in the encounter, reason unknown.
Usually ED symptoms are well underway when officers arrive, but lately Lawrence has found instances in which a subject is speaking calmly and rationally with officers and then suddenly explodes into ED. However the onset occurs, the condition, while relatively rare, is always high-risk, he stresses.
As officers try to gain physical control of the subject, his "extraordinary strength" will be "a central feature of the struggle." Several officers will be needed to overcome his determined resistance and immunity to pain.
"During the restraint process, the subject will often be grunting and making animal-like noises."
The biggest problem may come after he is controlled - when, after struggling against restraint, there may come "a period of sudden tranquility." At this point, Lawrence says, "the officers realize the subject has stopped breathing. Invariably resuscitation efforts fail."
http://www.southernnevadahealthdistrict.or...ed_delirium.htm
In my personal experiance in Canada. Police use non leathal methods with a bit more gusto than what is nessesary. The man in the vidio was upset but does it require a second taser shot. His sreams and grunt where from pain
heh. what's funny is, Molly Millions' flechette pistol didn't work at all like the AVS. Molly's pistol didn't shoot a spray of flechettes, like a shotgun fires pellets--it fired a stream of them, like a machine gun, or even one flechette at a time.
This thread isn't the thread you think it is.
yeah, well... shut up!
Police encounters involving tasers tend to go something like this:
Guy minding his own business: Howdy officer, what can I do for you?
Officer: He's delirious!
Guy minding his own business: No, I'm not. Do you want to see my ID?
Officer: He's resisting arrest!
Guy minding his own business: No, I'm not. Look, I'm putting my hands on the back of my head and lying face down on the ground. *does so*
Officer: He's attacking me. My God! He has superhuman strength!
Guy minding his own business: What?!
Officer: I have to tase him.
Guy: No! Don't!
Officer: *tases* If you stop resisting I can stop zapping you.
Guy: I'm not resisting.
Officer: *Zaps again* I said stop resisting.
Guy minding his own business: Howdy officer, what can I do for you?
Officer: He's delirious!
Guy minding his own business: No, I'm not. Do you want to see my ID?
Officer: He's resisting arrest!
Guy minding his own business: No, I'm not. Look, I'm putting my hands on the back of my head and lying face down on the ground. *does so*
Officer: He's attacking me. My God! He has superhuman strength!
Guy minding his own business: What?!
Officer: I have to tase him.
Guy: No! Don't!
Officer: *tases* If you stop resisting I can stop zapping you.
Guy: I'm not resisting.
Officer: *Zaps again* I said stop resisting.
Lone Star warning a suspect
Bang
"Stop"
Bang Bang
"Police"
Bang"
"Stop or"
Bang
"I'll shoot"
Bang Bang Bang
Bang
"Stop"
Bang Bang
"Police"
Bang"
"Stop or"
Bang
"I'll shoot"
Bang Bang Bang
May also be used as an example of LA police warning a suspect.
Stealing my own post from one of the humor threads...
Governor Strouthers, tired and fed up with Lone Star's apparent ineptitude in controlling crime, decides to hold a test for the various police corps that want the job. He releases a rabbit into a nearby forest and each of them has to catch it.
Eagle Security goes in first.
They place animal and spirit informants throughout the forest.
They question all plant, mineral and nature spirit witnesses.
After three months of extensive investigations they conclude that rabbits do not exist.
Then Knight Errant goes in.
After two weeks with no leads they burn the forest, killing everything in it, including the rabbit, and they make no apologies.
The rabbit had it coming.
Then Lone Star goes in.
They come out two hours later with a badly beaten bear.
The bear is yelling: "Okay! Okay! I'm a rabbit! I'm a rabbit!"
Governor Strouthers, tired and fed up with Lone Star's apparent ineptitude in controlling crime, decides to hold a test for the various police corps that want the job. He releases a rabbit into a nearby forest and each of them has to catch it.
Eagle Security goes in first.
They place animal and spirit informants throughout the forest.
They question all plant, mineral and nature spirit witnesses.
After three months of extensive investigations they conclude that rabbits do not exist.
Then Knight Errant goes in.
After two weeks with no leads they burn the forest, killing everything in it, including the rabbit, and they make no apologies.
The rabbit had it coming.
Then Lone Star goes in.
They come out two hours later with a badly beaten bear.
The bear is yelling: "Okay! Okay! I'm a rabbit! I'm a rabbit!"
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Police encounters involving tasers tend to go something like this: Guy minding his own business: Howdy officer, what can I do for you? Officer: He's delirious! Guy minding his own business: No, I'm not. Do you want to see my ID? Officer: He's resisting arrest! Guy minding his own business: No, I'm not. Look, I'm putting my hands on the back of my head and lying face down on the ground. *does so* Officer: He's attacking me. My God! He has superhuman strength! Guy minding his own business: What?! Officer: I have to tase him. Guy: No! Don't! Officer: *tases* If you stop resisting I can stop zapping you. Guy: I'm not resisting. Officer: *Zaps again* I said stop resisting. |
HAHAHAHAHAH YEAH! It's totally funny because all cops are thugs! You're right! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
| QUOTE (kzt @ Nov 17 2007, 04:36 PM) |
| <obligtory slap at SR stupidity> You'll notice that nobody in the ENTIRE world has decided to use bullets fired out of regular handguns that are supposed to not injure the target. The insanity of "Gel Rounds" are pretty obvious to the casual observer. </obligtory slap at SR stupidity> |
I always thought that get rounds were the next evolution of rubber/plastic/wax bullets, which are used frequently in riot control situations around the world today?
Rubber Bullets
You'll notice that they are vastly larger than pistol bullets, require specialized launchers, and they are designed to cause pain to disperse crowds. Which isn't at all how SR "gel rounds" work per the RAW or are described as being used.
Perhaps the issue is that police need to be told, and convinced, that tasers are as you put it "less lethal" rather than "non lethal".
"You shot him!"
"Oh don't panic, it's just a taser."
Just thinking this might be a problem with the general perception of tasers across the board.
"You shot him!"
"Oh don't panic, it's just a taser."
Just thinking this might be a problem with the general perception of tasers across the board.
Ok, then, what's the alternative to tasers? Batons? And please don't say hand-to-hand...it's hard enough to demand that cops take low pay, physically dangerous jobs, and deal every day with the dregs of society. You just can't fill that job with expert hand-to-hand heroes. There aren't enough people willing to do it, nor should they be expected to.
| QUOTE (cx2) |
| Perhaps the issue is that police need to be told, and convinced, that tasers are as you put it "less lethal" rather than "non lethal". "You shot him!" "Oh don't panic, it's just a taser." Just thinking this might be a problem with the general perception of tasers across the board. |
Do you really think they don't know that? Do you honestly believe a bunch of gaming geeks on an internet forum have just figured this out and that the law enforcement professionals around the world (along with the businesses that actually make the tasers) aren't aware of this? Where do you think the term "less lethal" comes from? I can tell you right now, Dumpshock didn't just fucking invent it.
Cops use tasers (or chemical/oc spray, in most departments the two hold the same place in the force continuum) because every soccer mom, liberal, and media whore in the world love it when they don't. The only thing folks like to bitch about more than "Don't tase me, bro!" is when they get to see some jack-booted thugs beating someone with a baton, scuffing up their knuckles on someone's face, or choking people and/or breaking limbs.
In most American departments, it's pretty simple. You try to use the badge first. Verbal commands, shouted orders, conversational requests, or anything in between. You talk, and ask/tell people what to do. If that doesn't work, you know what comes next?
The less-lethal stuff. Chemical or taser agents. Because 99.99% of the time they cause nothing but temporary pain, and any injuries that result from their usage are incidental (you tase someone, they seize up and fall over -- maybe the "fall over" part hurts them, but the taser itself doesn't).
THEN comes hands on. Because it's every bit as "less lethal" (NOT "non lethal") as a blast of pepper spray. Human beings have been killing other human being with their bare hands since Caveman Joe learned how to make a fucking fist. You cannot beat someone into submission without causing injury -- period. Knocking someone out? That's a concussion. Choking them out? Good luck stopping before they're dead. What we Kali practitioners call "defanging the snake," disabling a limb at a time until they're no longer a threat? Yeah, that'll look great on the evening news, cops methodically snapping limbs. When cops have to use blunt trauma (hand to hand) instead of chemical or tase agents, people and cops get hurt, period, and it CERTAINLY doesn't look any more community friendly than a taser jolt.
After hands on comes any other weapon (be it blade or blunt, carried on the belt or makeshift) that has a greater chance of causing death. Smacking someone in the head with an ASP isn't doing them any fucking favors, compared to giving them a three second lightning ride. And a taser ride -- temporary pain caused by your muscles tensing up to take the fight out of you -- is certainly preferable to a .40 to the torso, isn't it?
In every department I know of, cops have to get tased before they're issued a taser. None of them have ever died from it. Ever. The odds of dying from a taser, and not from some other shit in your system that the adrenaline of combat (even just being on the end of a taser) or the ensuing cuffing/transporting? Slim to none, really.
Yes, it can happen. Yes, tasers can be used prematurely. Yes, tasers can kill people.
But -- cops KNOW that, and they're trained appropriately. AND...the odds of serious injury (to the cop or the suspect) or death when a taser is used are much, much, much slimmer than when any of the alternatives are.
Plus, the ones who do wind up dying from tasering have, for the most part, been found to have died from causes other than the tasering. Generally, the excited delerium that kzt mentioned. But every time someone hopped up on meth gets tasered and kicks the bucket, the media gets all worked up about another "tasering death". 
By the way, in SR, you can die from stun damage - overflow stun damage bleeds over into physical damage.
I have never had a problem with gel or stick-n-shock rounds in Shadowrun - by that far in the future, special kinds of ammo that can be fired from a regular handgun aren't that implausible.
By the way, in SR, you can die from stun damage - overflow stun damage bleeds over into physical damage.
I have never had a problem with gel or stick-n-shock rounds in Shadowrun - by that far in the future, special kinds of ammo that can be fired from a regular handgun aren't that implausible.
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| Cops use tasers (or chemical/oc spray, in most departments the two hold the same place in the force continuum) because every soccer mom, liberal, and media whore in the world love it when they don't. The only thing folks like to bitch about more than "Don't tase me, bro!" is when they get to see some jack-booted thugs beating someone with a baton, scuffing up their knuckles on someone's face, or choking people and/or breaking limbs. |
No, actually they hate that. It's not like everyone that's not a whiny conservative can only possibly believe what they believe to be contrary. Sometimes people actually do disagree with the cops.
But also, it's not the handgun gel rounds I have a problem with. The street sam in my group uses a sniper rifle with gel rounds, and insists that this is a legitimate non-lethal tactic. Any argument I've made about muzzle velocity has been met with "well, I think magic is ridiculous, does that mean we shouldn't allow that?" So far, I think I'm just going to wait to see how things go when he really needs to take a target alive. It could just be that it does so much stun damage, it overflows into physical and seriously injures or kills the target anyway, and the rules actually reflect what should happen.
Leave the political sniping out of it, please. Thanks.
Well in this case he was a 40 year old Polish gentleman, who didn't speak a word of English, who'd never been in trouble with the law coming to visit his mother in Canada... Not normally the type to be hopped up on meth.
Now here is my interpretation at least of what happened.
Buddy gets off the plane after what was probably the longest flight of his life. He's tired, grouchy, and all that fun stuff that one expects after a long flight. Nothing too unusual there. He's also apparently a heavy smoker and has probably just gone at least 8 or 9 hours without a smoke.
He goes to customs and they open his suitcase finding a whole stack of Geography textbooks on the Canadian Rockies. Apparently this was because geography was something of a passion for him but it was enough to raise the suspicion of the customs officer, I don't really get this part, I mean the day terrorists start using geography against us we're in real trouble.
The customs officer starts questioning him about his books, Dziekanski doesn't speak English and begins to get agitated. I must admit I'd probably get a little ticked off too if someone started questioning me in a language I didn't understand over my choice of reading materials too.
It gets to the point that he has basically barricaded himself in the customs area and begins throwing furniture and computer parts. Numerous people tried to calm him down, find out what language he was speaking. I don't think I'd ever get to the point where I do something like that... Clearly at this point he was acting pretty irrationally.
The customs officer calls police to come diffuse the situation. Now this is a guy who would have been 21 years old when Communism fell in Poland. He's lived half his life under a regime where being scared of the cops was a way of life, and I still don't think they're a model of the free world. The cops basically surround him and back him against a wall. In the video you don't see him make any aggressive moves towards them until they taze him. He tries to run away and is tazed again. He kept fighting right up until the point where he lost consciousness.
Honestly, I think the cops might have been a bit quick to use their tazers. Draw them, keep them pointed at him and zap him as soon as he makes a threatening move but at least make an effort to communicate with him first. You're telling me that in an international airport the size of Vancouver's no one spoke Polish(or Russian)? Just make an announcement over the PA system asking anyone who speaks said language to find the nearest employee, we need your help diffusing a situation.
Now here is my interpretation at least of what happened.
Buddy gets off the plane after what was probably the longest flight of his life. He's tired, grouchy, and all that fun stuff that one expects after a long flight. Nothing too unusual there. He's also apparently a heavy smoker and has probably just gone at least 8 or 9 hours without a smoke.
He goes to customs and they open his suitcase finding a whole stack of Geography textbooks on the Canadian Rockies. Apparently this was because geography was something of a passion for him but it was enough to raise the suspicion of the customs officer, I don't really get this part, I mean the day terrorists start using geography against us we're in real trouble.
The customs officer starts questioning him about his books, Dziekanski doesn't speak English and begins to get agitated. I must admit I'd probably get a little ticked off too if someone started questioning me in a language I didn't understand over my choice of reading materials too.
It gets to the point that he has basically barricaded himself in the customs area and begins throwing furniture and computer parts. Numerous people tried to calm him down, find out what language he was speaking. I don't think I'd ever get to the point where I do something like that... Clearly at this point he was acting pretty irrationally.
The customs officer calls police to come diffuse the situation. Now this is a guy who would have been 21 years old when Communism fell in Poland. He's lived half his life under a regime where being scared of the cops was a way of life, and I still don't think they're a model of the free world. The cops basically surround him and back him against a wall. In the video you don't see him make any aggressive moves towards them until they taze him. He tries to run away and is tazed again. He kept fighting right up until the point where he lost consciousness.
Honestly, I think the cops might have been a bit quick to use their tazers. Draw them, keep them pointed at him and zap him as soon as he makes a threatening move but at least make an effort to communicate with him first. You're telling me that in an international airport the size of Vancouver's no one spoke Polish(or Russian)? Just make an announcement over the PA system asking anyone who speaks said language to find the nearest employee, we need your help diffusing a situation.
ED deaths are generally CAUSED by restraint, it is the final straw that pushes heightened metabolic activity over the edge to death, and in the case of this video, apparently unneeded restraint. The man was already contained, and wasn't an immediate danger to anyone other than himself. They knew who he was and where he was from. It was apparent that he was in distress. It should have been trivial to contact someone that could speak to him and either talk him down or let it burn out.
Instead, they decide to kill him. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the taser, as far as I can tell, pretty much any restraint at that point would have been lethal, but, from what I know, police KNOW that restraining ED victims can the lethal.
Instead, they decide to kill him. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the taser, as far as I can tell, pretty much any restraint at that point would have been lethal, but, from what I know, police KNOW that restraining ED victims can the lethal.
You know, I had a meticulously crafted response to all of this and then I deleted it because it was just totally boring. So here's how it goes:
Cops are generally good people with generally good motives and are generally awesome most of the time. But over time, I think some cops forget that the original intent of the taser (at least in California) was to provide an officer with a means of incapacitating a suspect without blowing their head off or crushing their skull. It was intended as a level of force one level below gun and one level above club. Yet over days and weeks and months of dealing with crack heads, some police have taken to using tasers as a step above ordering someone to comply. It's faster, easier, and more convenient to tase somebody than to wrestle with them - and safer for the cop, most times, too. I have personally witnessed someone get tased as the second step in an altercation. The first step was "Get down on the ground." The person said no. The cop tased. There was no negotiation or pepperspray, no wrestling. Then again, this was in LA near Watts just outside of USC, so infer what you will from that.
What's more having the ability to incapacitate someone so quickly and easily can feed into the sense of arrogance and perpetual authority that some police have. Don't know what I mean? Try talking to some local cops like you would any other human being on the street. Some of them - about one fifth to one quarter, in my experience - have a sense of perpetual entitlement and authority. They appear to feel that they are the person who is in charge of all situations in all locales at all times. And that's fine, if there's a law being broken, but I think that if a cop gets upset over how much he's getting charged for coffee and tries to make an issue out of it because he's obviously 'in charge', you can see how that attitude might also cause problems in terms of 'acceptable use of force'. For my money, these are also the kinds of cops who ususally get excessive force charges levelled at them.
Tasers are useful. Tasers save lives. Don't ever mistake cops for infallible, saintly, unerring people, though. And don't ever suggest there aren't cops that don't unduly escalate force. They're in the vast minority, but it does happen. To suggest otherwise - or even to suggest that it isn't happening on a daily basis - is to be blind to statistics, the world, and what's going on around you.
Cops are generally good people with generally good motives and are generally awesome most of the time. But over time, I think some cops forget that the original intent of the taser (at least in California) was to provide an officer with a means of incapacitating a suspect without blowing their head off or crushing their skull. It was intended as a level of force one level below gun and one level above club. Yet over days and weeks and months of dealing with crack heads, some police have taken to using tasers as a step above ordering someone to comply. It's faster, easier, and more convenient to tase somebody than to wrestle with them - and safer for the cop, most times, too. I have personally witnessed someone get tased as the second step in an altercation. The first step was "Get down on the ground." The person said no. The cop tased. There was no negotiation or pepperspray, no wrestling. Then again, this was in LA near Watts just outside of USC, so infer what you will from that.
What's more having the ability to incapacitate someone so quickly and easily can feed into the sense of arrogance and perpetual authority that some police have. Don't know what I mean? Try talking to some local cops like you would any other human being on the street. Some of them - about one fifth to one quarter, in my experience - have a sense of perpetual entitlement and authority. They appear to feel that they are the person who is in charge of all situations in all locales at all times. And that's fine, if there's a law being broken, but I think that if a cop gets upset over how much he's getting charged for coffee and tries to make an issue out of it because he's obviously 'in charge', you can see how that attitude might also cause problems in terms of 'acceptable use of force'. For my money, these are also the kinds of cops who ususally get excessive force charges levelled at them.
Tasers are useful. Tasers save lives. Don't ever mistake cops for infallible, saintly, unerring people, though. And don't ever suggest there aren't cops that don't unduly escalate force. They're in the vast minority, but it does happen. To suggest otherwise - or even to suggest that it isn't happening on a daily basis - is to be blind to statistics, the world, and what's going on around you.
| QUOTE (GryMor @ Nov 19 2007, 12:05 PM) |
| Instead, they decide to kill him. |
This is a little over-stated, IMO. The police decided to detain/restrain him, but that doesn't mean that they had murderous intent. Not every case (or even many cases, I suspect) of restraint result in death. There must be thousands of cases of distressed individuals restrained by police daily, and the number of fatalies is exceedingly small. It might be more accurate IMO to say that the police decided the person represented sufficient risk to themselves or bystanders or himself that the situation merited restraining him, even if it had a very small percentage chance of causing injury or death.
@ Adarael: I'd agree. Ultimately, cops are just like any other segment of the population; some good, some bad, mostly a mixture of both. That said, I'm reluctant to cast stones at even the small percentage of bad ones out there because I'm not sure I'd do any better. Looking at the stress there job puts on them (check out the stats for suicide and divorce among cops compared to the general population sometime), that pressure's got to do something to a psyche over time.
| QUOTE (Adarael) |
| What's more having the ability to incapacitate someone so quickly and easily can feed into the sense of arrogance and perpetual authority that some police have. Don't know what I mean? Try talking to some local cops like you would any other human being on the street. Some of them - about one fifth to one quarter, in my experience - have a sense of perpetual entitlement and authority. They appear to feel that they are the person who is in charge of all situations in all locales at all times. And that's fine, if there's a law being broken, but I think that if a cop gets upset over how much he's getting charged for coffee and tries to make an issue out of it because he's obviously 'in charge', you can see how that attitude might also cause problems in terms of 'acceptable use of force'. For my money, these are also the kinds of cops who ususally get excessive force charges levelled at them. |
You're saying 20-25% are the arrogant ones? That's very generous, in my experience.
Being a police officer is very attractive to two types of people:
1) Good, honest people who want to protect and serve and make their community a better place.
2) Arrogant bullies who get off on being in charge and being more important than other people.
And it's really a shame that the police departments don't get more money, can't pay their officers more, and thus attract a larger pool of candidates so that they could afford to tell the second group to go !#$%&#^ @*$&# until they #*@^$&# %&#*@*% @#*#&%$ for a week.
That is a scary, scary job being a cop. They never know what kind of person they're dealing with. Remember if they make 99% sure you won't kill them, at that rate they'll be dead within a year or two. They have to be really, REALLY sure in order to maintain a solid not-dying policy for years and years.
I can't even imagine how much money it would take to get a police department which was staffed, trained, and equipped to a point where fear was minimized enough that they could be, y'know, nice to people.
But that's not the real world, and it's definitely not Shadowrun.
I actually think I might be stating the number too high. I agree with you 100% about the types of people who want to become police officers (I've actually used those exact words a couple of times) but I don't know if the number of bullies is gonna get higher than 20%. If anything, I feel I may be overstating the case of bullies. Most of the police departments I've had to deal with were quite self-correcting. Every police department bully that oversteps his bounds makes every good cop look like a bastard, which is why they self-correct. And also why they cover it up when someone screws up.
The LAPD was not so self-correcting, but they're a monolith with a rep for being...well, the LAPD.
The LAPD was not so self-correcting, but they're a monolith with a rep for being...well, the LAPD.
Perhaps. I'm not making any statements about the number of bullies there are. I'm can only say the percentage that I have personally encountered.
Hmm. I always assumed that the attitude, like the moustache, came with the hat. 
I've always had fairly good experiences with the police in my hometown, and I was a dirty punk kid in high school who had at least a few run ins with them. I think that's part of the reason why this is getting so much attention in Canada. Canadian cops aren't supposed to do stuff like this.
That said though the RCMP has been getting a worse and worse reputation over the past 10-15 years. There was an incident a few years ago where they drove a drunk native guy out to the city limits in -35C weather and pushed him out of the car. He froze to death. I'm starting to agree with some of the people who want to disband the RCMP and replace them with provincial police across the board... Though the OPP (Ontario Provincial Police) don't exactly have a shining reputation either.
That said though the RCMP has been getting a worse and worse reputation over the past 10-15 years. There was an incident a few years ago where they drove a drunk native guy out to the city limits in -35C weather and pushed him out of the car. He froze to death. I'm starting to agree with some of the people who want to disband the RCMP and replace them with provincial police across the board... Though the OPP (Ontario Provincial Police) don't exactly have a shining reputation either.
OK folks, this has wandered far from being a thread on Shadowrun, so let's bring it back on track here.
| QUOTE (Adarael) |
| But over time, I think some cops forget that the original intent of the taser (at least in California) was to provide an officer with a means of incapacitating a suspect without blowing their head off or crushing their skull. It was intended as a level of force one level below gun and one level above club. Yet over days and weeks and months of dealing with crack heads, some police have taken to using tasers as a step above ordering someone to comply. It's faster, easier, and more convenient to tase somebody than to wrestle with them - and safer for the cop, most times, too. I have personally witnessed someone get tased as the second step in an altercation. The first step was "Get down on the ground." The person said no. The cop tased. There was no negotiation or pepperspray, no wrestling. Then again, this was in LA near Watts just outside of USC, so infer what you will from that. |
Your situation has nothing to do with Watts, or with "some cops forgetting" anything. It's not up to beat cops to write up their own force continuum. It's up to Chiefs and other management types, who -- trust me on this one -- don't do anything without three layers of covering-their-ass in the process.
A bunch of lazy, fat, beat, cops didn't just sit down over donuts one day and decide they were going to start tasing people for no good reason. It wasn't a bunch of zany jackbooted thugs that just thought it would be fun to start using tasers instead of clubs. They weren't just tired from swinging their sticks -- this sort of decision gets made from the top (national-level chief of police organizations) and trickles down, not the other way around.
Whether they were originally meant to be used that way (when they were far different machines with far different capabilities than they are today) or not, tasers are where they are in most department's force continuums. That officer tasing someone in response to them refusing to comply with a direct verbal command -- perfectly within the realm of how they're supposed to handle that sort of situation. You don't "negotiate" with cops. That's just not the way the job is set up. Standing on a sidewalk or sitting in your car on the side of the highway just isn't the time to try and have a discussion or argument about your rights or your opinions or whatever -- right or wrong, that's just not the place for it. You don't negotiate with a cop when he tells you to do something...you do it, and then talk to a judge about it later if you think it was in the wrong.
One level above verbal commands, one level below hands-on. That's where they are, and that's how they're used. It's sad that a shouting guy that was throwing around furniture is dead -- but the cops did what they've been trained to do, and the tasers worked as advertised.
What's this whole thing have to do with Shadowrun again?
Are you kidding? The psychology behind decisions as to what level of force should be used, and also the types of people that decide to become cops, are TOTALLY Shadowrun related (more so, I'd argue, than many of the esoteric rules questions that pop up). If people want to bitch about cops, or bitch about the types of people that bitch about cops, I say let them. Their reasons for doing so are probably very closely connected to not only the type of Shadowrun they play, but also the very reason they play the game at all.
To try and put this in a shadowrun context, I believe that Lonestar would give its officers more flexibility in the use of lethal, and 'less lethal' force. That said, cops would be expected to give suspects more leeway in AAA zones (where people who mattered might see, or get caught in the cross-fire), than in the Z zones. Anything below a C-zone could have passers-by zapped just because the cop didn't like the look of his face or for 'driving while orc'. In the Z-zones, tazers would never get used: anything worth a response at all in the Barrens is worth a deadly response.
| QUOTE (Apathy) |
| To try and put this in a shadowrun context, I believe that Lonestar would give its officers more flexibility in the use of lethal, and 'less lethal' force. That said, cops would be expected to give suspects more leeway in AAA zones (where people who mattered might see, or get caught in the cross-fire), than in the Z zones. Anything below a C-zone could have passers-by zapped just because the cop didn't like the look of his face or for 'driving while orc'. In the Z-zones, tazers would never get used: anything worth a response at all in the Barrens is worth a deadly response. |
Also, regardless of zone, I would think that very much depends on whether the target has a valid SIN or not.
Despite Critias remark about the thorough training, it still seems that these particular cops don't use a taser as a non-lethal alternative to using their fire-arm, but as a complacency tool. This is of course hilarious, seeing as some-one screaming, spasming and flailing their limbs isn't a picture of complacency. Zap him again!
Of course, this must be a problem with particular officers in the states today. In Lone Star, I imagine shocking some-one who doesn't follow a command will be instituted standard operating procedure.
I mean who can't imagine a Lone Star beat cop whipping out his tazer when that slitch won't hang up her fragging cell phone.
Of course, this must be a problem with particular officers in the states today. In Lone Star, I imagine shocking some-one who doesn't follow a command will be instituted standard operating procedure.
I mean who can't imagine a Lone Star beat cop whipping out his tazer when that slitch won't hang up her fragging cell phone.
| QUOTE (Sir_Psycho) |
| Despite Critias remark about the thorough training, it still seems that these particular cops don't use a taser as a non-lethal alternative to using their fire-arm, but as a complacency tool. This is of course hilarious, seeing as some-one screaming, spasming and flailing their limbs isn't a picture of complacency. Zap him again! Of course, this must be a problem with particular officers in the states today. In Lone Star, I imagine shocking some-one who doesn't follow a command will be instituted standard operating procedure. I mean who can't imagine a Lone Star beat cop whipping out his tazer when that slitch won't hang up her fragging cell phone. |
Any time you try to escalate a situation by putting your hands on them to force them to comply, you put yourself at risk. If I was a cop, and I was facing a suspect who was acting deranged and violent, I would very much prefer the option where he's incapacitated long before I'm within arm's reach. Why take the chance for injury when I don't have to?
Applying this to SR, no cop is ever going to want to get in arm's reach of a troll suspenct without complete assurance that the troll isn't going to reach up and twist his head off. In the nice neighborhood, this means the cop tosses the troll restraints from 10' away with instructions to put them on before he'll approach. In the less-good neighborhood, orcs and trolls just get shocked preemptively.
I train regularly with many members of the Law Enforcement community. We actually had a long, belly-shaking chat about the whole taser incident. From sergeants to a captain to a district attorney, all present thought that the incident - and its implications on the use of tasers as a piece of gear - was absurd. The incident in particular they were referencing was a tasing of a restrained subject.
LEOs are being issued tasers and are being trained in their use as a catchall for poor verbal compliance training / implementation and rapidly fading hands-on compliance and grappling techniques. This is nearly a direct quote from several LEOs that I have worked with. The taser is being used as a tool to augment skills that simply are not present - ie a LEO is in a situation that is escelating too quickly and they lose control by moving to a taser too early.
Every LEO that I had this discussion agrees that the deployment of a taser, except under extreme circumstance, is an escalation that rarely needs to be made and is a cop-out for better police work. Finally, they considered it a sign of the truly horrid state of affairs for officer training at restraining a non-compliant suspect. Same goes for a prison guard I know, 'cept he calls them prisoners instead of suspects.
As other posters have noted, the taser as a tool is designed to allow an officer to have a less-than-lethal deployment option at a range that goes beyond directly personal... Said lacking hands-on skills combined with sizable settlements against police deparments, millions in billable hours for law firms and some heavy handed legislation has seen to it that officers tend to be reluctant to go hands on until a subject is totally overwhelmed.
Either case, it is indicative of a trend in modernization towards tools and away from hands on, lived in skills. In Shadowrun the trend has gotten to a point where,
LEOs are being issued tasers and are being trained in their use as a catchall for poor verbal compliance training / implementation and rapidly fading hands-on compliance and grappling techniques. This is nearly a direct quote from several LEOs that I have worked with. The taser is being used as a tool to augment skills that simply are not present - ie a LEO is in a situation that is escelating too quickly and they lose control by moving to a taser too early.
Every LEO that I had this discussion agrees that the deployment of a taser, except under extreme circumstance, is an escalation that rarely needs to be made and is a cop-out for better police work. Finally, they considered it a sign of the truly horrid state of affairs for officer training at restraining a non-compliant suspect. Same goes for a prison guard I know, 'cept he calls them prisoners instead of suspects.
As other posters have noted, the taser as a tool is designed to allow an officer to have a less-than-lethal deployment option at a range that goes beyond directly personal... Said lacking hands-on skills combined with sizable settlements against police deparments, millions in billable hours for law firms and some heavy handed legislation has seen to it that officers tend to be reluctant to go hands on until a subject is totally overwhelmed.
Either case, it is indicative of a trend in modernization towards tools and away from hands on, lived in skills. In Shadowrun the trend has gotten to a point where,
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| Lone Star warning a suspect Bang "Stop" Bang Bang "Police" Bang" "Stop or" Bang "I'll shoot" Bang Bang Bang |
is considered police work.
This would extend into massively disproportionate force envelopes - ie riot gear cops standing on street corners with HVARs, gel rounds optional. Thank you, Aztechnology.
In any case, cops have an incredibly difficult job. They deserve a ton more respect than they get.
- der menkey
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."
~Ernest Hemingway
I'd say SOME cops deserve respect. Saying all of them do is a blanket generalization. There's a ton of cops out there that signed up so they wouldn't get charged with assault when they beat people up, but they're all "heroes" now. You shouldn't lump them all together like that.
| QUOTE (CircuitBoyBlue) |
| There's a ton of cops out there that signed up so they wouldn't get charged with assault when they beat people up, but they're all "heroes" now. |
This is too ridiculous a statement to dignify with a remark, and yet too outrageous to let go. What to do?
Meerly point out that CircutBoyBlue is also making a rather sweeping generalized statement of the type that he was criticizing.
So, veering back towards Shadowrun... getting tazed while on meth is extra dangerous; what about extra damage for those getting zapped while on jazz or cram?
How possible/plausible, given advanced and/or Awakened methods, is a drug that makes one temporarily more resistant to electrical attacks, and what side effects might it have?
Attempted less-inflammatory note on police: I knew a former member of San Francisco Police Department. He used the term "shooters" for the small percentage of SFPD who accounted for a large percentage of SFPD's firearm use; he saw carrying a non-issued firearm as a symptom of shooterism. I'm pretty sure he was in it for Serve & Protect, but he got tired of working with the police that he saw as bullies, so he quit and became a journalist.
If you see a Knight Errant patroller with an Ares Alpha, who's not part of a high-threat crisis response team, then you can safely guess that he's kinda hoping for trouble that he can put down hard, and perhaps he'd be happier working for Lone Star.
How possible/plausible, given advanced and/or Awakened methods, is a drug that makes one temporarily more resistant to electrical attacks, and what side effects might it have?
Attempted less-inflammatory note on police: I knew a former member of San Francisco Police Department. He used the term "shooters" for the small percentage of SFPD who accounted for a large percentage of SFPD's firearm use; he saw carrying a non-issued firearm as a symptom of shooterism. I'm pretty sure he was in it for Serve & Protect, but he got tired of working with the police that he saw as bullies, so he quit and became a journalist.
If you see a Knight Errant patroller with an Ares Alpha, who's not part of a high-threat crisis response team, then you can safely guess that he's kinda hoping for trouble that he can put down hard, and perhaps he'd be happier working for Lone Star.
If you look at the arrest statistics of a dept in detail you'll notice that a small number of beat cops arrest a lot more felons than average. Because they think that they are being paid to enforce the law and arrest bad guys, not to be auxiliaries to the mayor's PR dept. So they work shifts that have lots of bad guys doing stuff, like midnights. They work out at the gym (on their own time), practice some sort of unarmed combat skil (on their own time), and practice at the range (on their own time). So when you see some 20 year old punk bolting out of the store where he shot the clerk you can chase him down and arrest him, and shoot him if he decides to shoot it out with you.
If you play tourist in blue you don't get any complaints because you don't DO anything. You work weekdays in a quiet part of town. You show up, punch in, take reports from people who got beaten and robbed and go home. If you stop someone for a traffic violation (because the chief has "suggestions about how many you need to do) you never ask questions that might lead to you having to do paperwork, like "Sir, why is your trunk dripping blood?" You find it a real pain to have to qualify once a year; and barely do, and the idea of buying your own ammo and practicing with your handgun without getting paid for the time never even crosses your mind. And when you see the 20 year old punk running out the store with a gun in his hand you call for backup and set up containment, "because there might still be an accomplice inside".
If you play tourist in blue you don't get any complaints because you don't DO anything. You work weekdays in a quiet part of town. You show up, punch in, take reports from people who got beaten and robbed and go home. If you stop someone for a traffic violation (because the chief has "suggestions about how many you need to do) you never ask questions that might lead to you having to do paperwork, like "Sir, why is your trunk dripping blood?" You find it a real pain to have to qualify once a year; and barely do, and the idea of buying your own ammo and practicing with your handgun without getting paid for the time never even crosses your mind. And when you see the 20 year old punk running out the store with a gun in his hand you call for backup and set up containment, "because there might still be an accomplice inside".
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