Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Alternate Trode Idea
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
WeaverMount
I had an idea about trodes. I think we are all know what beef there is to be had with them so I'll skip that and move on to my ideas

1) Trodes are read only. With modern technology we have trode nets that let people and monkeys move robotic arms and move wheel chairs etc. I think everyone on dump shock knows this. So I'm thinking in 2070 they would still exist ... as read only devices. 70 years of engineering has made them combat reliable, and more portable. You can control your weapons turret with them. You can tell your smart link to eject your fire then eject the clip with a though alone, but to see where the gun is pointing you need some other way to get that data, be it glasses contacts or datajack. The trodes can "write" to your brain state.

2) There are non implanted devices that can write to your brain. They are large devices that fire crossing electron beams into your brain to stimulate specific points. This requires a cumbersome helmet attached to hardware about the size of large file cabinet. I see them costing about 5000 nuyen.gif - more than most people are willing to pay, but still cheep enough that corps could put them all over the place. This technology would mean the setting could have hackers in teched out chairs kicking butt in the matrix. Also you could have recreational VR parlors, and the nicer coffin hotels would have banks of limp drooling metahumans who hoarded there wages for the chance to spend the night in VR. Another perk is that it puts some mechanics on trolls getting the shaft because of their size. Also keeps it possible for technomancers and Adept hackers to hang onto all there essence.

Ravor
I don't know, personally I've just come to the point where I've decided to write Trodes out completely and declare them one of the technologies that was lost in the first Crash.

However, since I really like the idea of brainhacking, I assume that drilling a large hole into a captive's skull and shoving nanowires in to interface with the wetmatter IS something that can be done in the back of a large van, after all what is a little brain-damage and they probably don't want the captive to have a working datajack anyways.
Adarael
Why not use the rules SR2/3 had? Trodes can't use hot sim because there isn't enough bandwidth to the brain, and black ic/hammer/brainhackery can only work on someone in hot sim?
Ravor
Sounds like a reasonable middle-ground to me Adarael, but for me personally, I've just grown tired of Trodes and feel that they along with the various enhanced contacts, detract from the Cyberpunk feel that I'm going for, but then again I make it less painful for the Awakened and Technomancers to lose alittle Essence.
Fortune
QUOTE (Ravor)
... but then again I make it less painful for the Awakened and Technomancers to lose alittle Essence.

Just out of curiosity, how?
Ravor
Essense Loss affects your max Magic/Resonance instead of your current score, but in order to keep the unlimited Karma "Uber Cyber-Mage" in check I've also built a Hard Cap into Magic/Resonance of 6 ( 9 ) that can be boosted to 7 ( 10 ) with a Quality that can only be bought with Karma after Initition.

Also I always make a special point to remind my players that in Fourth Edition, ( Rating 4 ) is the same thing as Third's ( Rating 6 ) and that the average professional Dicepool ranges from 6-8 so it's perfectly fine to only have a ( Magic 3-4 ) and still feel like a bad-ass.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Adarael)
Why not use the rules SR2/3 had? Trodes can't use hot sim because there isn't enough bandwidth to the brain, and black ic/hammer/brainhackery can only work on someone in hot sim?

Since the current game balance issues largely have to do with the wonders of using an AR Hackastack, what possible advantage would that be?

Currently there's no real advantage to going hot sim, or even to use VR at all. Using VR you get 3 or 4 IP and a reduced threshold on some tests. But not using VR allows you to use your physical attributes (which have higher caps), as many IP as you can get from cyberware (3 or 4), and complete immunity to any real or lasting damage in the Matrix.

So if you have a Hackastack, you can hack to your heart's content until someone crashes or seriously impacts your current comm. Then you switch seamlessly to the next commlink in the hackastack while the last one is rebooting from a save point. If there are enough comms in the Hackastack, your first crashed link will have restarted before you get to the end of the Hackastack.

So waving your arms about how such and such a methodology won't let you hot sim means fuck all. Not only does it undermine the whole setting concept of BTL Addicts laying in corners with trode nets on their heads (which admittedly some people may not want), it simply reinforces the Post-Singularity Bullshit that is completely monetarily replaceable human beings in a setting where small bands of metahumans are supposed to take on powerful corporations that have essentially limitless funds.

Hot Sim is a drawback. Game mechanically, you don't want it. You need one less hit on some tasks, and roll three less dice on all those tasks. In exchange, the Matrix can and will kill you. You even act slower than you do in AR because Reaction has a higher cap than Response.

-Frank
mfb
seems like the easiest fix there would be to make hot sim desirable.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (mfb)
seems like the easiest fix there would be to make hot sim desirable.

That is a fix. I wouldn't say it is "easy". Between Agent Smith, Script Kiddy, and the Hackastack you can be essentially limitless in time (Hackastack) and space (Agent Smith), and you don't even need skills or real character investment of any kind save for a wallet (Script Kiddy). Compared to that, what possible advantage could hot sim provide?

You already can take functionally limitless actions and can't lose the matrix game. No dicepool bonus or threshold reduction can match that. Once you're gambling with your actual life instead of absolutely nothing then you're up a creak.

To get the relative benefit of the hackastack packing an agent army: which as previously noted allows you to hack over and over again with no real consequences for failure; you'd have to be pulling a comparable win vs. loss ratio. Hell, since Hot Sim in this model costs more and is itself against the law, you'd want to be pulling a better win vs. loss ratio.

Yes. A ratio which is better than something for nothing.

Good luck designing that fix.

-Frank
FriendoftheDork
I think the biggest flaw is allowing more than one IP in AR. Remove that, and VR hackers have a genuine advantage over AR ones, despite their vulnerability.

Besides I'd think Spiders and IC with trace program is just as dangerous to both. Black hammer is rarer, since VR hackers are fewer than AR ones.
HappyDaze
QUOTE
However, since I really like the idea of brainhacking, I assume that drilling a large hole into a captive's skull and shoving nanowires in to interface with the wetmatter IS something that can be done in the back of a large van, after all what is a little brain-damage and they probably don't want the captive to have a working datajack anyways.

No elegance.

The best way is to use nanites. It's established that you can inhale ('snort') a shot of nanites and they go in and do what you need them to do. It's also established that they can form neural networks and that they can interact with outside wireless networks. Sounds to me like you can inhale a nanite trode network. It'll only last a week at a time, but it's great for both those annoying prisoners you want to 'brainhack' and for the runner without a datajack that doesn't want to shave his head for a trode set.
mfb
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
That is a fix. I wouldn't say it is "easy". Between Agent Smith, Script Kiddy, and the Hackastack you can be essentially limitless in time (Hackastack) and space (Agent Smith), and you don't even need skills or real character investment of any kind save for a wallet (Script Kiddy). Compared to that, what possible advantage could hot sim provide?

well, i'm not saying making hot sim desirable would fix everything, all by itself. if you wanted to fix everything... i think i'd start with one of your Agent Smith fixes, and do away with the current mechanics for independent agents altogether, both in the Matrix (agents) and out (drones). agents and drone pilots would become abstractions; instead of using their ratings and your hardware, they would use your skill--and your actions--and the hardware of whatever device you loaded them onto. basically, sending agents out to do stuff would be part of your skill, rather than a separate game mechanic. controlling drone networks would have to be fairly extensively altered to fit this paradigm--maybe adding some sort of Network Control skill or somesuch, i haven't given it much thought. sprites, i'd leave alone; the ability to control independent entities in the Matrix would become the TM shtick.

next, i'd limit or do away with entirely extra IPs from physical reaction/initiative enhancements when performing Matrix actions. for instance, i might decide that if you don't have hot sim, you are limited to one Matrix action (one complex or two simple--basically, one pass' worth of actions) per turn, no matter how many IPs you have. if you have hot sim but are acting in AR, i might limit you to three Matrix actions per turn, even if you have 4 IPs available. only if you have hot sim and are in VR can you spend all 4 IPs on Matrix actions.

and... i think that's pretty much it. the only issues i see with it are that a) game mechanics for drone networks would have to be overhauled, and b) splitting your actions between the Matrix and the physical would become more complex. but it'd solve, as best i can tell, Hackastack, Agent Smith, and Script Kiddy.
deek
OT, but in light of the previous post, the more I think about it, the more I am open to just letting AR passes be dictated by physical IPs. I mean, I have yet to run for a "hacker" that didn't already have at least wired reflexes 1, and most have WR2...

So, if the sammie with WR2 gets three IPs in the matrix while in AR, why not? Unless he has dumped some points in the skills and bought all the programs he would need, he's not going to be as handy...plus, the system is supposed to get the hermit hacker out of his bunker and into the game...no one said that meant pure hacking, did they?

Ok, I digress...but the more I run my games, the less inclined I am to penalize AR users with IP boosters...if more people want to participate during matrix actions, as a GM, I am actually happier than if it was just one and the rest go back to playing Rock Band...
Ustio
My way of dealing with trodes was simple and almost cannon (in a round about sneaky way) -

Trodes = device = rating 3
this is the cap on any use of the trodes (system and response) not a problem for the corp-drone types but quite a problem for a real hacker.
Buster
QUOTE (Ustio)
My way of dealing with trodes was simple and almost cannon (in a round about sneaky way) -

Trodes = device = rating 3
this is the cap on any use of the trodes (system and response) not a problem for the corp-drone types but quite a problem for a real hacker.

That has no effect on the commlink ratings which is what's important for hacking.
kzt
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)
I think the biggest flaw is allowing more than one IP in AR. Remove that, and VR hackers have a genuine advantage over AR ones, despite their vulnerability.

Yeah, but agents are computer code. They get 3 IPs.

And if an arbitrary large number of agents with 12 dice are opposing you the odds are really good that one of them will get more successes than you.
Ravor
You could treat trodes as limiting a Decker's hits in the same way a Mage's hits are limited by a spell's force.

The reasoning, it's really fragging hard to get a trode set "perfectly" aligned and although the tech is somewhat self-correcting, it's not perfect and when compared to datajacks, trodes have this clumsy lag built into the interface.
Sponge
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
So if you have a Hackastack, you can hack to your heart's content until someone crashes or seriously impacts your current comm. Then you switch seamlessly to the next commlink in the hackastack while the last one is rebooting from a save point. If there are enough comms in the Hackastack, your first crashed link will have restarted before you get to the end of the Hackastack.

I'm pretty new to SR4 (and shadowrun in general) so I'm not familiar with previous debates on these concepts - forgive me if I'm rehashing old arguments (as I probably am), or even better point me to an archive of such a debate (I couldn't find anything relevant searching for "agent smith" or "hackastack").

From my understanding, your persona takes the same damage across all nodes. If you are using a hundred commlinks, your persona is equally damaged in all of them, so why would switching to another commlink matter?

Also, with regards to the "agent smith" thing, why not treat groups of agents performing the same action as exactly that - use the rules for opposed tests against a group (limited to +5 dice), or use the teamwork test rules (limited to primary character's skill in bonus dice) ?

DS
kzt
QUOTE (Sponge)
Also, with regards to the "agent smith" thing, why not treat groups of agents performing the same action as exactly that - use the rules for opposed tests against a group (limited to +5 dice), or use the teamwork test rules (limited to primary character's skill in bonus dice) ?

For the same reason teamwork doesn't apply in combat. When 10 guards are shooting at you you don't only count one plus teamwork, do you? Even thought they are all trying to shoot you?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
From my understanding, your persona takes the same damage across all nodes. If you are using a hundred commlinks, your persona is equally damaged in all of them, so why would switching to another commlink matter?


The thing about pure AR hacking is that your persona isn't connected to "you" in any way. It doesn't lead to your head, it leads to a commlink in your pocket. If you happen to have another commlink in your other pocket, you can have another persona. If you have a stack of fifty commlinks, you can have fifty personas and act through any of them during any round.

That's the core of the Hackastack. The core of Agent Smith is that you can actually leave an agent on each of those personas and have it go do things with actual actions and die rolls whether or not you're also attempting to hack on your own.

So before I'm prepared to give a thumb's up to any proposed system which involves making Direct Neural Interface difficult, I want it to include some kind of system by which the Direct Neural Interface is in some way important. Because honestly, right now it isn't. Look at how far mfb's concepting is going, and it's not even done.

---

So long as "you" can have a persona which involves only carried equipment and does not include anything which is essentially "you" the Hackastack is a reality. Script Kiddy creates the Hackastack, and the Hackastack creates Agent Smith.

-Frank
Adarael
QUOTE
Frank's Opinions


Hey, I was just pointing out that SR 2/3s method of dealing with 'trodes might be easier for WeaverMount's concerns.

At no point did I desire to discuss the problems with the matrix and how that "fix" might affect them. I have my own matrix house rules, and I have my own means of plugging the holes, and I have no desire to hear you rant at me about how my 'fix' is lame, because frankly, I don't use that 'fix' in my own games.

I was just pointing it out for Weaver, is all.
Seven-7
QUOTE (Adarael)
QUOTE
Frank's Opinions


Hey, I was just pointing out that SR 2/3s method of dealing with 'trodes might be easier for WeaverMount's concerns.

At no point did I desire to discuss the problems with the matrix and how that "fix" might affect them. I have my own matrix house rules, and I have my own means of plugging the holes, and I have no desire to hear you rant at me about how my 'fix' is lame, because frankly, I don't use that 'fix' in my own games.

I was just pointing it out for Weaver, is all.

I find it odd that you post on a discussion forum only to not want to discuss, and if you didn't want to discuss you could have simply ignored. Am I now forcing you to discuss this by replying?
mfb
QUOTE (Seven-7)
I find it odd that you post on a discussion forum only to not want to discuss, and if you didn't want to discuss you could have simply ignored. Am I now forcing you to discuss this by replying?

don't be obtuse. Adarael was offering a specific fix for a specific complaint; Frank grabbed that fix and compared it to his gigantic laundry list of problems with the Matrix. there's nothing particularly wrong with what Frank did, but there's also nothing wrong with Adarael pointing out that his fix wasn't intended to address Frank's problems.
Mercer
My first thought to "Alternate Trode Idea"?

Homer Simpson's nervous question in response to a controversial treatment for his eyes:

"Does it go in the butt?"
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012