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Grey
One thing that we did in a game I was playing in for Perception was really cool. Give this a shot:

Buy Intelligence as a normal stat. After points are purchased, double the points and split Intelligence into two different stats, Perception and Logic. You then allocate the points you have from Intelligence to these. Perception counts towards perception checks and Logic counts towards the number of knowledge skills you start with and it is the stat that is linked to Intelligence skills.

Example

Mr. Quick the street sam isnít the sharpest of guys, but he has the eyes of a hawk. He buys 4 points of Intelligence and then splits that into a Perception of 6 and Logic of 2. When buying skills liked to Intelligence he uses his Logic stat of 2, but when making Perception checks, he has 6 dice to roll with.
Zazen
I like that Perception/Logic rule. I'm curious about how far you take it, though. Does the character maintain the Intelligence stat for anything, or is it "replaced" for all intents and purposes by the sub-stats?

And what happens when someone gets a cerebral booster, or an Increase Intelligence spell? Do they split those points between the two stats as they wish, or are they applied equally or according to some other rule?

smile.gif
Grey
To be honest, I don't know, it hasn't come up yet. But I'm sure we can figure it all out here.

Personally, I would rule that if you get a +1 to intel, both Perception and Logic would go up by one.
Zazen
That makes sense. I think that I'd let them choose if it was purchased with karma and training, but not for technical or magical increases.
Grey
Or maybe increase them seperately, but at a reduced cost? Say rating * 1.5 to increase?
Req
Which one links to Combat Pool?
Ol' Scratch
Actually, I'd disagree. It helps "balance" out the Intelligence attribute quite a bit. Things like a Cerebral Booster or Improved Intelligence spell will already be well worth it for the increase in Reaction and Combat Pool, and you don't already gain bonus Knowledge Skill points in the game after character creation anyway.

They also have very little to do with Perception on their own; Perception is just being derived from your Intelligence during character creation with this house rule as opposed to being a direct relationship. There's plenty of mods and spells out there that improve Perception without affecting Intelligence, which just goes to show that the two are not synonmous even under the current ruleset.

I also don't see any reason to restrict players for how they want to split their Intelligence up using this rule. If someone wants to be an oblivious Einstein loaded with Knowledge Skills out the wazoo, all the more power to him! And if they want to be an incompetent twit who doesn't know the first thing about anything, but can sense a mosquito heading his way for a snack a meter away, rock on! It's no different than someone wanting to put a Charisma of 1 and Strength of 6 during character creation; it's their choice if they want to do something stupid like that.

The only thing that really needs to be done is to give "Logic" a function beyond determining Knowledge Skills. Maybe it's used by deckers in place of Intelligence for determining their Hacking Pool. I don't know. But if you give it a useful function (preferably one that affects most character types), that would, in and of itself, help avoid the Logic 1/Perception 11 "problems" some people may have.

You might even be able to use it to help against directed illusions (where they're fucking with your head, not your senses) while Perception would be used against indirect illusions (to see/hear/whatever past them).
Grey
QUOTE (Req @ Nov 26 2003, 11:53 AM)
Which one links to Combat Pool?

Perception. Its about noticing things going on around you and being able to react to them. It is also what is used for Reaction.
Ol' Scratch
I have to disagree there. Combat Pool should be a function of Intelligence; it's not "just" Perception, but also your innate ability to determine the best way to react to the situation. In other words, both Perception and Logic, and since both are derived from Intelligence...

And it keeps Intelligence as an important stat.
Zazen
And it doesn't encourage Logic 1/Perception 11.
Grey
So basicly you are saying to keep Intel, but allow people to split up Logic and Perception and subsets of the main stat? A little more complex, but I think I like that a lot.
Lilt
Is reaction being based off the average (base) rating too or is it going off perception? I like this for a coupple of reasons: Firstly It (presumably) makes the standard Improved Invisibility 1 spell & focus trick less useful as it's no-longer a safe best that people in the world won't have 7+ dice to resist (I am assuming perception would be used over logic). Secondly it allows for more character customisation without being tremendously broken.
Earthwalker
Alternativly, leave the int stat alone. And allow your players to get a skill called perception witch will work as a complimentary skill for all perception tests.

So a int 3 person with perception 6 will still be very perceptive. The avantage of this is you dont need new rules of how what spells, cyber effect int.
Game2BHappy
What if...

You start off with a Perception and Logic equal to the Intelligence, but for every point you add to one, you take two from the other.

This would prevent the stats from becoming overly disparate.

i.e.

Intelligence: 5, Logic: 5, Perception: 5
Intelligence: 5, Logic: 3, Perception: 6
Intelligence: 5, Logic: 1, Perception: 7
Intelligence: 5, Logic: 6, Perception: 3
Intelligence: 5, Logic: 7, Perception: 1
Siege
QUOTE (Game2BHappy)
What if...

You start off with a Perception and Logic equal to the Intelligence, but for every point you add to one, you take two from the other.

This would prevent the stats from becoming overly disparate.

i.e.

Intelligence: 5, Logic: 5, Perception: 5
Intelligence: 5, Logic: 3, Perception: 6
Intelligence: 5, Logic: 1, Perception: 7
Intelligence: 5, Logic: 6, Perception: 3
Intelligence: 5, Logic: 7, Perception: 1

It's an interesting balance, but the logic doesn't work for me -- just because I'm more perceptive, my IQ slides into the toilet?

Granted, if I'm noticing the latest bikini fashion show, both my IQ and powers of observation go straight to hell but I don't mind so much...

-Siege
Dende
So you took a rule from 2nd edition DnD and made it work for you here. I like the idea, somewhat...

In 2nd Ed DnD, a char had the same stats as in 3rd Ed... Str, Int, Wisdom,etc...But each of those had 2 parts, which from the base(ie 14, you could raise one to a 16, the other to a 10, or anywhere in between.) It was rather complicated someitimes because all skills had it. But incorpating rules from other games can always be a sin against humaniuty, I actually kind of like it because we role straight int for perception...even with other mods, does that really make sense?

But I think there needs to be a skill, I can't count the number of times I have been driving in the mountains with my uncle when he says "hey look at BLANK" and I can't see a damn thing. I am just as smart as him, but he hunted for many many years, he knows how to look for stuff in the wilderness, and I don't.
Siege
QUOTE (Dende)
So you took a rule from 2nd edition DnD and made it work for you here. I like the idea, somewhat...

In 2nd Ed DnD, a char had the same stats as in 3rd Ed... Str, Int, Wisdom,etc...But each of those had 2 parts, which from the base(ie 14, you could raise one to a 16, the other to a 10, or anywhere in between.) It was rather complicated someitimes because all skills had it. But incorpating rules from other games can always be a sin against humaniuty, I actually kind of like it because we role straight int for perception...even with other mods, does that really make sense?

But I think there needs to be a skill, I can't count the number of times I have been driving in the mountains with my uncle when he says "hey look at BLANK" and I can't see a damn thing. I am just as smart as him, but he hunted for many many years, he knows how to look for stuff in the wilderness, and I don't.

2nd? I though that was a 1st edition, from the Unearthed Arcana.

Sorry, idle trivia.

-Siege
Fortune
QUOTE (Earthwalker)
Alternativly, leave the int stat alone. And allow your players to get a skill called perception witch will work as a complimentary skill for all perception tests.

So a int 3 person with perception 6 will still be very perceptive. The avantage of this is you dont need new rules of how what spells, cyber effect int.

This already exists, in the Stealth skill and it's Alertness specialization.
Siege
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Earthwalker @ Nov 27 2003, 10:01 PM)
Alternativly, leave the int stat alone. And allow your players to get a skill called perception witch will work as a complimentary skill for all perception tests.

So a int 3 person with perception 6 will still be very perceptive. The avantage of this is you dont need new rules of how what spells, cyber effect int.

This already exists, in the Stealth skill and it's Alertness specialization.

Does that specialization make sense to you? It just bugged me that for a character to be observant and aware, (s)he would have to be incredibly good at sneaking.

Now, adding the skill to the Perception check as a comp bonus might have some merit.

Example: I want to spot a sneaking person, so I roll Perception (Int) + 1/2 Stealth ("since I know where I'd be sneaking, so I have a better idea of where to look and what to look for" sort of theory.)

That logic also applies to other skills.

Example: I want to check out the mark and see if he has a weapon on him -- I roll Perception (Int) + 1/2 Handgun as a complimentary bonus.

-Siege
"Making Gaming Complicated Since 2000"
Ol' Scratch
...
Siege
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
...

Oh my goddess, I rendered Doc Funky speechless! grinbig.gif

-Siege
Ol' Scratch
Nah, I just misread you the first time then realized I was agreeing with you. biggrin.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Siege)
Does that specialization make sense to you? It just bugged me that for a character to be observant and aware, (s)he would have to be incredibly good at sneaking.

Now, adding the skill to the Perception check as a comp bonus might have some merit.

I don't understand your post. You start off by questioning whether the Alerness specialization makes sense, then go on to suggest an alternate which is exactly the way canon describes the Alertness specialty to work.
Siege
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Siege @ Nov 28 2003, 09:29 AM)
Does that specialization make sense to you?  It just bugged me that for a character to be observant and aware, (s)he would have to be incredibly good at sneaking.

Now, adding the skill to the Perception check as a comp bonus might have some merit.

I don't understand your post. You start off by questioning whether the Alerness specialization makes sense, then go on to suggest an alternate which is exactly the way canon describes the Alertness specialty to work.

I tend to babble a lot, so let's see if I can make this any clearer:

Any perception check I make, whether it's to spot someone sneaking down an alley or to notice a hidden gun or that one case-breaking clue sticking out from under a bed, I have to use Stealth (Alertness).

Now, you're telling me that for my character to be a highly skilled observer, I have to be amazingly sneaky to boot?

Secret Service protection agents, detectives and CSI investigators all have high perception scores because they're trained to be observant -- but by the existing mechanical system, to be highly observant, I have to buy loads of Stealth.

Now, my question stands --> why on earth do I need to be sneaky in order to detect or observe things?

Proposed Solution
Instead of using Stealth (Alertness) for _all_ perception checks, I suggested using the most relevant skill as a complimentary bonus to the perception check.

Example: To spot a handgun hidden on a mark, I roll Perception (Intelligence) + Handgun (as a complimentary bonus).

The logic being: Since I know how to use a handgun, I know where to look since I have an idea of where and how I'd hide a gun if I was going to hide a gun.

If I'd never seen a handgun before, I wouldn't have any practical knowledge by which to identify that odd bulge under his left arm.

-Siege
Ol' Scratch
Oh, so we did disagree originally.

Stealth (Awareness) can only be used as a Complimentary Skill for purposes of using Perception to pick up on someone making an active use of Stealth. It doesn't work against Concealability ratings or anything else.
Siege
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Oh, so we did disagree originally.

Stealth (Awareness) can only be used as a Complimentary Skill for purposes of using Perception to pick up on someone making an active use of Stealth. It doesn't work against Concealability ratings or anything else.

Right -- but what about noticing the tiny drops of mercury in a boxer's locker?

Using the precedent established for Stealth, wouldn't I apply Handgun in the same fashion? That is, to make perception checks involving handguns.

Chemistry for spotting the tiny drops of mercury in the above example, I suspect. Or maybe "Forensics" which includes detailed searches and thorough examinations of a confined or limited space...hmmm...

-Siege
Zazen
QUOTE (Siege)
Right -- but what about noticing the tiny drops of mercury in a boxer's locker?

Is there some reason to look for mercury in the locker of a boxer, or was that just a really random example? It sounds like there's something more to that.
Derek
It had to do with an episode of CSI on last night (thursday). A re-run, but a decent one.

Derek
Grey
Alright, I'm a little fuzzy on how complimentary skills work, so please help me out here.

I thought that if I had a comp skill of 6, that would mean I roll 6 dice at target 4 and every 2 successes add one die to the main test.

I've also heard you just get half the comp skill to the main test and I've also heard you get all the comp skill added to the main test.

Which is it?
Ol' Scratch
That is how a Complimentary Skill works (though the TN varies). No clue where Siege was getting the one-half stuff. biggrin.gif
Sphynx
QUOTE (Grey)
I thought that if I had a comp skill of 6, that would mean I roll 6 dice at target 4 and every 2 successes add one die to the main test.

Sorry, hate to call Doc wrong, but the ruling is:

if I had a comp skill of 6, that would mean I roll 6 dice at target 4 and every 2 successes add one success (not die) to the main test assuming you get at least one success without the comp skill.

Sphynx
Ol' Scratch
Cripes, that's twice today. I just missed that he said "one die" instead of "one success." D'oh! I think I ate too much turkey yesterday.
Siege
QUOTE (Derek)
It had to do with an episode of CSI on last night (thursday). A re-run, but a decent one.

Derek

It was the first example that leapt to mind when I was trying to illustrate a non-Stealth example.

Sorry, I'm a CSI/Real Detectives sorta guy. grinbig.gif

-Siege
Siege
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
That is how a Complimentary Skill works (though the TN varies). No clue where Siege was getting the one-half stuff. biggrin.gif

As Doc intended to say and what Sphynx said: the canon rule for comp tests is every two successes on the comp skill = one success on the primary skill.

I have a bad habit of just halving the comp skill and adding it to the primary roll.

It's simpler for me, but definitely not canon. And for the record, I don't do it during games. grinbig.gif

-Siege
nezumi
Random thought: Instead of doing the 'splitting attribute' thing originally suggested, why not allow for 'specializations' of attributes? Intelligence would have two, logic and perception. That way you stay closer to the core rules and no one has to start doing complex stuff if they don't want to. Some stats probably couldn't be specialized in (like Strength), some of them might make a lot of sense (Charisma, since everyone complains about the difference between being scary and beautiful). Just seems like it would come across as a lot more intuitive to players, rather than having to do it in a different way from how its done anywhere else.
Siege
Interesting idea -- also explored in Ars Magica.

Although they went for more colorful descriptors and applied the stat as a bonus or penalty depending on the situation.

The first drawback I can think of is the added tracking a specialized stat in the same manner as specialized skills (Which I've always found irritating).

It also doesn't allow for any marked improvement beyond one or two points until you start spending gobs of karma to raise the stat.

Compare that to a skill that's relatively cheaper to raise.

-Siege
Senchae
(Just to close off a subthread- it was AD&D 2nd and a half edition, as we called it- the rule for splitting each attribute was in one of the Players Option books.)
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