Sorry about the length, but I've got a bit to cover:

So, my gaming group and I usually switch off time between D&D and SR... been doing it that way since college (as a side note, it's nice and easy for me... by the time I run something it's got plenty of cannon support to go with it). As the current d20 campaign is winding down, the players are looking at me to start gearing up for some Shadowrun. We're thinking of picking up almost exactly where the last campaign left off (shortly after Survival of the Fittest, moving towards the Crash 2.0 to start dropping adventure seeds after a few months of play).

Our last campaign ended on a down note... almost a TPK deep in the heart of a Saeder-Kruup facility in Frankfurt Germany. One character was conscious and surrendered to security forces rather than be put down... The players want to pick up right there, as news of their demise makes it back to the shadow community. We use a character tree type system, with each player having access to multiple characters, so keeping the overlying story going is simple (even with a whole team missing). However, since we last played SR4 has been released, which brings me to my dilemma... can I/should I run a 2063-2065 "System Failure" based campaign using the SR4 rules?

I've read the SR4 book cover to cover, and I'm really looking forward to some of the simplifications and changes (even if my players aren't), but I'm also looking at this campaign as a chance to put the SR3 rules to bed... warts and all.

Now, as a long time player of the game (playing SR since the day the first blue book was available), I know that the rules are really secondary to the story, but there's been a lot of rule changes from 3e to 4e... more so than any of the previous editions. Some things just aren't covered any more, and some things are totally changed.

Any opinions? Is it so damn good that I should jump into it right away? Can 'old school' decking be handled under the new rules? Is there a compromise? Can I shoehorn in a few rules here and there to end up with a comfortable hybrid that will ease my players into 4e?

Hopefully I can find some opinions here... thanks in advance...

-polo

of course you can!!! I am gming three groups at the moment and only one of them is living in the Sr4 world.

IMO the new ruleset is well worth jumping right into. You will find threads and threads over here discussing the issue, but SR4 is a success and works much faster than SR3. I returned to gaming this way.

I do believe the only big change you have to deal with is, of course, the Matrix. We can discuss about how to do that later as I am in a hurry right now, but it can surely be done.

Another thing I would suggest is to limit the edge to mirror the "feel" of the old school Karma pool. I have found players have more fun when their edge progresses along their careers, (unless somebody wants to play an uncybered mundane, that is)

more on this channel, later...

Cheers,

Max

BTW: I am really interested in the security that SK frankfurt facility had. I might want to send my players to Germany, eventually...

Like MaxHunter said, sure. For the most part the rules work just fine, although whoever designed the Adept rules didn't get the memo that in Fourth Edition ( Rating 4 ) is the same as Third Edition's ( Rating 6 ).

The Matrix 2.0 will need house ruled, but even in a straight 2070s game the Matrix Rules need heavy house ruling to actually work.

We do the same - play in a SR3 world, sort of, using sr4 rules. I don't follow much of the metaplot, so that makes it easier.

Go for it.

Maybe the questions should be, if you're happy with SR v3, why change to SR v4 ??

Personally, I've been using the Aeon rules to play in the SR universe [the same game mechanics 5+ years ago that SR now uses, with a more down-to-earth/gritty feel - and some other changes, obviously]..
..Without any problems.


I did the same thing using the Traveller:2300 rules in the Traveller background - doable, but takes some work.

....actually considered retooling a 3e campaign to 4e. At the time though only the core book was out & there would haven needed to be so much houseruling on various ware & gear it would have been ridiculous. Now with Augmetnted out & Arsenal (please, I really do believe in Santa & I've been nice ) soon to be released, the idea is a lot more attractive.

Basically I have taken a break from GM duties for a while to assess where the campaign is going. I am now seriously considering adapting the remainder of the it to the 4e mechanics. For Hacking the commlinks will be more like today's pocket comps and decker will still need to Jack in to do anything meaningful in the matrix. Otherwise, for everything else it should work fine. I have already discussed this possibility with the players and they seem to be in favour of it.

For translating characters I feel the best way would be to rebuild them under 4e rules as close to the concept they currently have and then re-apply the karma already awarded. Since the campaign is still set in 2062, there is no issue with changes to the timeline.

You might want to check out some of the 'Living in the Shadows' threads in the 'Welcome to the Shadows' form. I know they kept on with a 3e setting but switched to 4e rules. IIRC they used 4e matrix rules but without AR and deckers had to have a datajack and physically jack in. (oh and they were still called deckers 'cause they comlinks were still called decks.)

In case you haven't figured it out yet, Living in the Shadows is all about the SR universe flavor/setting. (at least to my understanding...)

@thePolo... hey thanks! Now I am really motivated to send those runners to Germany, your security system ideas are pretty nifty -and original- as secure corporate compounds go. Now, what did the actual facility do besides being a shadowrun target?

-Because now that I am at it I may as well steal the whole plot hook too!-

Now I would like my runner team to survive the next 72 hours... oh well, if they die a slow death I am going to suggest that they make german characters...

"it is now 09:25:21, the level of carcerands in your bloodstream is: high"

Cheers,

Max

one of the stranded players -who posts in a different forum- answered to me:

"it is now 09:26:02, the level of APDS ammo in my sniper rifle is: high"

LOL

Cheers,

Max

It's a pure research facilty. Mainly branches of biological reseach. My idea was to base it loosly on the Umbrella company from Resident evil... not in function (ie: no zombies) but in form. They handle advanced viral and biological research, looking for the next 'big thing' for the company... cure for global pandemics, reversing goblinization, etc... basically the impossibe. But, that sort of research always has side effects that are marketable... which is why SK keeps it in operation.

Staff lives there full time. The scientists are on multi-year contracts, and the security staff is rotated out every 3 to 6 months. The only regular contact with the 'base' is the supply trucks, that arrive every week. The only real points of entry that I threw out to my players was the shipments, the ait vents (which are secure, but do-able with some imagination), and maybe bluffing thier way in on a security shift change (which happens to be happening soon)... getting in will be about as hard as getting out. The facility is sub-terranian, with very few entry/exit points.

The characters were under the impression that it contained some weapon prototypes that they were hired to steal the schematics for... in reality, it contained a biological weapon (viral based) that had some nasty effects to goblinoid races, and for some reason left humans and most other racial varients (and animals) alone... Like I said, research has interesting side effects.

The hook was a hire from a johnson that they'd had limited work from before, since the deal's dirty, they might end up burining him/her. The client is a disgruntled former employee who's hooked up with humanis. They plan to acquire the virus, mas produce it, etc.. etc... if the runners check out the goods, they'll have some interesting decisions to make

I designed the whole run around the modular walls. I just liked the cinematic quality of a running gunfight in a big shifting maze.

I'm doing the same thing.

I ran a 10 year long campaign from when SR first came out.

Too many very good adventures that I'd like to take another crack at to not do so.

As to why run 4th instead of 3rd, 4th runs a lot faster. I like skill plus stat. I like edge. And 4th uses the same base system for almost everything.

Third had some many variations it was almost impossible to keep up with them once you got in to security rigging, astral combat, and the Matrix.

cndblank, that was exactly the info I was looking for. Now I just need to convince the players to give it a shot.

...with the elimination of the old dice pools, the Rigger as a specialist archetype kind of got nerfed in 4e. Basically now anyone with a good Reaction attribute & a couple BPs/Karma in vehicle skill can be a pretty decent driver/pilot & take full advantage of her initiative bonuses. This has it's advantage in that a character does not need to dump a lot of skill and resources into just being the über-driver/pilot but it does so at the expense of game colour.

I do find the 4e matrix rules definitely easer to deal with from both a player and GM perspective. No more Memory Rating, Programme size, I/O speed, Security Tally, and the like to keep track of, & matrix ops tend to go a lot quicker. You can also still have a hardwired matrix and with some houseruling say restrict the commlink customisation rules to designing cyberdecks. The stock commlinks could replace the Pocket secretary and only run the common use programmes (this is what I am considering for another go around of my RiS campaign).

Yeah, I still have riggers, but I like the idea of Deckers being able to run emulation software in order to rig.

Still Riggers should clearly be faster and have better control with fewer side effects.

I was thinking of a few things to make that work.

First half the Vehicle Control Essence cost to balance it out (so a VCR II costs 1.5 Essence instead of 3 Essence). Reduce the price to 1/10.

Second add there rating of the VCR to the riggers Initiative Stat (cumulative to the Reflex bonus and all other Initiative bonuses).

Third, the more advance VCR have added benefits when the rigger is jumped in to vehicle or drone.

All VCR have their rating in Biofeedback filter for Rigging activities. This is cumulate with normal Biofeedback filters. Both the VCR II and III have a Full Interface Mode that allows 3 IPs. Treat it as hot VR/hot sim without the side effects. They come with this mode standard. These VCRs don't need as much Simsense due to the additional cyberware through out the body allowing more safeguards. Treat as the user using cold sim for damage purposes. So a rigger with a 4 Will, biofeed back Filter 2 on his control deck, and a VCR 2 gets 8 dices against Dumpshock of (5S) even if using Hot VR.

Finally a VCR III can do a Max Interface mode that is hot sim (also standard). The rigger gets an addition IP for a total of 4 IPs while jumped in to a vehicle or drone, but all normal Hot Sim rules apply.

Sound right or too much?

...I would think using 4e for a 3e setting also meant using the 4e ware & gear.

Sorry to go OT, but echoing MaxHunter: any notes/ideas/etc (maps? ) you had on your little facility would be much appreciated-- I'm running a Holiday season-long 'one shot' mini-campaign while old friends/players are in town, and I was actually thinking of some little corp action in Europe...

Well, if I ran something 2063, I'd need to use 2063 tech... so it's either some house rules or stick with SRIII for the time being. With a core mechanic as solid as SR4 seems so far, it should be pretty easy to house rule it if I need to.

As for maps and notes for my Germany facility, I'll see what I can dig up... I just cleaned house on some of my campaign notes over the weekend (about 2 years worth of folders and printouts went into the recycling... including prints of pretty much everything that was on the old Blackjack site... ) That was a stack of paper about 8 inches thick, and I've got several more where that came from. I'll see what I can do.

Here's some stuff from memory:

If you looks at this map: Map

... and draw a triangle between Frankfurt, Hiedelburg, and Trier, the facility was located right there in the middle of the Rhine Valley.

The facility is mentioned by those at SK that know about it as 'our interests in the Rhine', and called 'the White Hill' by those rumor mongers and conspiracy theorists that know anything about it. Doing some snooping on the white hill through contacts, or by a decker brings up a lot of garbage from European Shadowtalk forums debating its existance, and what they do there... most often it's rumored to be in/near Frankfurt and deal in weapons research of some sort.

I never mapped out the portions of the facility that they wouldn't see, since any entry point had a large amount of not seeing where you're going and I wasn't about to hand them a map before they went in to a facility that wasn't supposed to exist.

Going in through the vents had several hundred meters of duct work (like most of the facility, the ducts are ceramic or plastic, not metal. Let the team make thier own assumptions why) which all looks pretty much identical. The ducts have random laser sensors or ultrasound detectors, and is flooded with FAB to prevent astral entry.

Taking a crate in like my team did involved a short run into a shipping facility in Frankfurt to get shipping schedules, find the shipments for that week, and then get some additional crates added to the agenda (which they happened to be hiding in).

Third, getting on a security detail was something that I didn't plan for very much, but it'd involve being bussed in from Frankfurt in a troop carrier with no outside visibility (so the troops don't know where they're going), and dumped in a motorpool about 200ft below ground. That motorpool connects directly to a storage area, coincidentally enough that's where the supply shipments are stored, and is the place where the air vents would have dumped them out.

As for the interior, I was thinking of something along the lines of 'Black Mesa' from the original Half-Life FPS for the parts that I didn't have mapped out... Map I used for inspiration... (can't believe I still have the link).

I'll add more later as I find it.

How did they 'figure out' that the SK warehousing facility shipped stuff to this White Hill, how did they find out that security was handled there and not at the locale? Pique my curiosity. Some players are less clever than others.

Anyway, thanks for your patience/willingness to share, here. I'm basically grabbing ideas left and run and I have little under two weeks to glue 'em all together.