Hello All,

please forgive me if this was already discussed. I searched already but I might have glitched my search-foo roll. ...

What do SIN numbers look like? are they uniform across the globe? in RL today, the SSN in the US is ###-##-#### but I know in Europe they have different numbering schemes. Are the numbers straight numbers or are they base-16 (hex) so it is 0-9,A-F ? or are they mix of Alphas/Numberics?

I am trying to put some details in my campaign and would like to follow the standards when possible. Also since I am putting it in my campaign, I will be adding to my little SR4 apps. Hence following the standards are more important.

thanks!
dog

Dunkleberry's Will had an example of a SIN ... 5T2G-8U6V-PK02.

Sounds a little bit short for a world-wide numbering system, which (has to) include the "government" you got it from and probably includes Details like birth date, etc.

4738381338321616896. Padding with leading zeroes for comparison, here's six billion:
0000000006000000000

Encoding details reduces useable combinations, even more so if there's built-in checksumming like in modern-day SSNs, but only seven characters are needed to support a population more than six times that size.

~J

There was another example of a SIN in the short story at the beginning of the SR2 BBB.

"Every reference to Sheila Winder, SIN 8452-523-009945, has been wiped out of the MCT databases. The corporate system has also issued a dossier recall on that SIN to the national databanks. So I guess Sheila Winder is dead. But Sidewinder is doing fine, thanks."

I don't know if that's the earliest example of a SIN, or if the System gets updated every so often-- although I imagine after Crash 2.0 they might have changed the format.

I believe the format varies depending on what government/corp issues the SIN.

Just to give you an impression of an existing system - that's how the national ID card (Personalausweis) numbers in Germany look today:

xxxxNNNNNcD<<yyMMddC<YYmmDDc<<<<<<C

xxxx = identifies the city where the ID card was issued (e.g. 1234)
NNNNN = sequential number (e.g. 12345)
c = checksum for xxxxNNNNN (e.g. 1)
D = nationality (Deutsch = German)

yy = year of birth (e.g. 80 = 1980)
MM = month of birth (e.g. 05 = May)
dd = day of birth (e.g. 09)
C = checksum for yyMMdd

YY = expiration date, year (e.g. 15 = 2015)
mm = expiration date, month (e.g. 10 = October)
DD = expiration date, day (e.g. 01)
c = checksum for YYmmDD

C = checksum for the whole ID number

Thus, such a number might look like:

1234123457D<<8005090<1510014<<<<<<1

When would nationality ever not be D?

They probably want to get the format set up so they don't have to change it when they take over the world...

Dual or Naturalized Citizen? (or whatever the german equivalent is, if they have them).

Spanish system (DNI) is:
IICCCNNNNNNNNLa<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
YYMMDDbGyymmddcnnn<<<<<<<<<<<z

where:
I: kind of document (always ID)
C: Nation where the DNI was created (always ESP)
N: identification numbers
L: identification letter
a: checksum for N and L (L gets transformed to a number)
Y: year of birth
M: month of birth
D: day of birth
b: checksum for Y, M, and D
G: gender (M/F)
y: expiration year
m: expiration month
d: expiration day
c: checksum for y, m and d
n: nationality (always ESP)
z: checksum for a, b and c

However, we're changing to a digital DNI (think of those credit cards with a small square chip) that even includes a digitalized photograph in its code. Dunno how this will result, specially because the new DNI got hacked a couple days before it was first issued.

Expiration dates only make sense for a physical credential. Actual person identifiers like SSNs, FBI Numbers, etc don't ever expire or get deleted. They may have some oddball stuff done that links them to another record, but they don't expire.

Well, the only really important info there is the number and letter (e.g.: 00000001A = the king), and this = SSN = driver license number = NIF (fiscal ID number) = firearms license number = whatever other ID you can get in the country.

UCAS070122-2112-F/O-0000221197
^----^---------^-----^-^-^
1----2----------3------4-5-6



1-Issuing Country. In this case, the UCAS
2-Date of Birth. In this case, July 1st, 2022
3-Registering Sector #-What 'County' the registration took place in.
4-Sex. Female in this case.
5-Race. Orc
6-10 digit Account #


That is what my SINs look like in game.

However your gender and such are not encoded in your driver's license number. My driver's license is still H-300-866-9791 (made up) regardless as to whether I change my name, grow a third leg or suddenly turn black. My wife's driver's license still starts with B even though she got married and how her last name starts with M (not my real last name).

I would be very surprised if SINs included gender, identifying features or race. Location and date of birth as well as political state that issued the SIN would make sense, since that stuff doesn't change. But a SIN, like a SSN and a driver's license number, should not change ever. It is meant to stay with you from birth until death, ergo including racial information is a very poor idea.

The fact that there are many right ways to play SINs (or rather, many non-wrong ways) does not imply that there is no wrong way to play SINs, nor that the set of right ways to play SINs is infinite.

~J

All the fluff says that SINs do encode all sorts of personal information in, including birth date and all that jaz. With a combination of gene therapy and judicious use of a scapel, someone totally could change from male to female, so if the SIN does code for gender, then you would have to change it (assuming you are legally recognized as the other gender).

That's not to say your old SIN won't point to your new one, but I agree that SIN could code all sorts of personal information, including gender, race, blood type, organ donor status (yes/no/involuntary), date of birth, country of citizenship, and anything else like that. Stuff that can change, but isn't likely to. In my games, that's why a rating 1 SIN is pretty cheap, and will fool a crappy scanner. The scanner looks at the SIN, and asks the operator if Mr. Smith is actually a male troll. Since he is, it passes.

Do the details of format really matter.

So long as you accept that it's a unique identifier documenting your existence issued and maintained by an acknowledged corporate or governmental entity and registered w/ the appropriate DB's. There's no real reason I can see to go beyond this abstraction in game.

But overall, the vast majority of information in relation to the SIN would simply use the SIN as a way to index and search their databases for the real meat (the data related to that SIN).

For some excpetionally high grade SINs yeah I could see you wanting to also include some kind of biometric data linking the subject to the ID. And there's no reason the number/data needs to be some short string of a mere 10digits... threre's no reason it couldn't be a multi-megabyte 'signature' file. (I regularly carry 8GB on a thumb drive now).

It should just be an pointer to a record in a database somewhere. There is no reason to try to encode stuff in it when the database has it all.

Exactly. And that's why it's hard to forge one. It has to be cross-referenced or we could just say, "oh sorry officer, I left my credstick in my other pants. My SIN is actually uh... well... eight G R four... blah blah" "Well, hey charlie, I don't know about you, but that sounds like a SIN to me!"

There is the theory (which I'm probably the sole proponent of) that actually being able to look in the "official records" is restricted to official government. Hence what is actually used day to day isn't the SIN, it's more your credit history. Nobody but the actual government ever uses the SIN or is allowed to use it.

For example you have an ID card that when presented to the guy at the security checkpoint to the Federal Building (or the traffic cop who pulls you over) will be able to verify whether your biometrics and picture matches what's in the files, as well as your criminal history, etc.

But when you buy something at stuffer shack they can't do that. The government has no reason to let them access that. I'd expect the merchant can on-line verify that the card is very likely to be authentic and they can see that it has your name and picture on it. If they bother to check, that is. What they really care about is that the payment you present is good. So if the credit history of the person you are saying you are shows that you are behaving in a normal fashion (hence not using a stolen account - which means they won't get paid) and that you have money to pay for this you are good to go.

So if you avoid contact with officials you can skate on IDs that are really not that good, because nobody cares. But don't get stopped for blowing a stop sign.

I would assume it's mixed.

By the rules, biometrics are rolled into the credstick to verify the user identity (with the level of biometrics based on the level of the credstick). At minimum by bank has that information, they likely share it with other banks when I make a transaction. My shopping history is attached to my SIN (it has been clearly stated as such) and I am pretty sure the corps wouldn't let that become restricted information. That includes things like my home address and a general list of my possessions.

However, there is some stuff which I assume would be restricted. For instance, my tax returns are restricted information which the government would have access to, but no one else. If we play that SR is based off of 2007 earth not 1987 earth, there's likely a 'general security rating' - how likely I am to flip out and bomb a plan or something. That is held by the government and released only on a 'need to know' basis (which probably actually translates to 'if you're a big corporation and you ask nicely, you clearly have a need to know'). It's possible the details of my criminal history would be held primarily by the government. What weapons I have licenses for would be held by the feds as well.

So yes, a SIN would connect to both public and private databases. More than likely you'd find most of the guarded databases are held by corporations, but that's not hugely relevant.