Flesh forms get to keep the vessel's memories, skills and abilities. This includes the magic ability for awakened vessels as well. My question is what happens when the spirits force rating is higher than what the vessels was? I mean the vessels soul is destroyed according to the fluff so even though the Flesh Form gets to keep the vessels abilities, magical included the power behind the spells or abilities has changed. So in the case of a physical adept who has been taken over there may be extra points of power or are the original magic points tracked sepereatly from the force rating of the spirit?
Add on: I am assuming that the mental stats of the Flesh Form are those of the spirit?
Full Version: Flesh Form
a) No, the spirits doesn't keep the magic rating of it's host. Magic is neither an ability nor a skill nor a memory. It's a special attribute. The spirit uses it's force, it doesn't matter if the magic rating is higher or lower. The host is away, all that remains are his memories.
b) Yes, the spirit still uses his own mental attributes.
b) Yes, the spirit still uses his own mental attributes.
The key is that while you get skills and powers, you don't inherently get qualities. The spirit probably won't carry over any spirit affinities or murky links that the host had, for example.
-Frank
-Frank
Kinda what I figured but always nice to get a second opinion.
My understanding of how it works is like this: The Spirit keeps its magic attribute (its force) but gains all powers. Therefore if it inhabits an initiate magician, it is able to astrally project, cast any spells the magician knew, and use any metamagic the magician knew. If inhabiting an adept, all adept powers are retained.
I do have another question though, very much along the same lines. If a spirit inhabits a vessel with 'ware does its essence decrease? what about if said spirit gets 'ware implanted after the inhabitation? And thirdly, does the answer to the second question imply that inhabiting spirits could be made into cyberzombies? I suppose it also bears asking: do spirits loose magic from essence loss? (I'd assume so, but since it isn't mentioned...[they do have essence equal to 6, not force, right?])
I do have another question though, very much along the same lines. If a spirit inhabits a vessel with 'ware does its essence decrease? what about if said spirit gets 'ware implanted after the inhabitation? And thirdly, does the answer to the second question imply that inhabiting spirits could be made into cyberzombies? I suppose it also bears asking: do spirits loose magic from essence loss? (I'd assume so, but since it isn't mentioned...[they do have essence equal to 6, not force, right?])
the spirit would not gain the powers of the subject necessarily... they would only gain the purely physical abilities (for example, hell hounds can breathe fire. so can a flesh form spirit inhabiting a hell hound). powers deriving from the host's magic attribute would certainly be lost, as the host's magic attribute is overwritten.
that said, a force 1 spirit inhabiting a magician with the sorcery skill at 6 would still have a sorcery skill at 6, and so forth, so it can actually be worthwhile to inhabit awakened individuals...
that said, a force 1 spirit inhabiting a magician with the sorcery skill at 6 would still have a sorcery skill at 6, and so forth, so it can actually be worthwhile to inhabit awakened individuals...
| QUOTE (Narse) |
| My understanding of how it works is like this: The Spirit keeps its magic attribute (its force) but gains all powers. Therefore if it inhabits an initiate magician, it is able to astrally project, cast any spells the magician knew, and use any metamagic the magician knew. If inhabiting an adept, all adept powers are retained. I do have another question though, very much along the same lines. If a spirit inhabits a vessel with 'ware does its essence decrease? what about if said spirit gets 'ware implanted after the inhabitation? And thirdly, does the answer to the second question imply that inhabiting spirits could be made into cyberzombies? I suppose it also bears asking: do spirits loose magic from essence loss? (I'd assume so, but since it isn't mentioned...[they do have essence equal to 6, not force, right?]) |
Special attributes are over-written. This means if you have a cyber-monster with 0.01 Essence left and he was subsequently Inhabited by a spirit who managed to get Flesh-form results...
The cybermonster-spirit would have Essence = Spirit's Force. Same goes for Magic. And... the spirit can use all of the host's abilities, skills, and hardware... including those wonderful DNI & smartlink toys.
Yes this means Inhabiting a mage who can conjure means the spirit can conjure too.
Sick, ain't it?
Well I know Fleshforms can have access to the original vessels spell casting abilities. While there magic rating is overwritten they still retain the merit of being a spell caster. So the same "should" hold true for adepts. The only question is if the spirit has a force rating higher than the original vessel and that vessel was an adept can the spirit acquire more physical adept abilities? I am house ruling yes on this one for my game because it makes them that much nastier.
I would have to say yes. They become the type of magic user the host they are Inhabiting was.
So if the spirit Inhabited a Chaos Mage, then the spirit's spellcasting and summoning abilities would be identical to a Chaos Mage's (likely with a higher Magic Attribute).
Likewise, if one were to Inhabit a Physical Adept (yeah yeah, SR3 and earlier term, sue me), they'd be able to buy up more physad powers or lose some if they were of lower force than Magic of the original Host.
So if the spirit Inhabited a Chaos Mage, then the spirit's spellcasting and summoning abilities would be identical to a Chaos Mage's (likely with a higher Magic Attribute).
Likewise, if one were to Inhabit a Physical Adept (yeah yeah, SR3 and earlier term, sue me), they'd be able to buy up more physad powers or lose some if they were of lower force than Magic of the original Host.
The host is away. His astral body doesn't exist anymore. His magic was reduced to zero. There isn't anything magic left. There's only the spirit left. If spirits can conjure, the spirit can use the host's conjuring ability, otherwise he can't and his knowledge will be totaly theoretical. I don't think that spirits CAN conjure, even if they've got the skill.
Imho, the spirit does not retain magical abilities, qualities, etc. The spirit will not become an adept, if the host was an adept. And he probably can't use the Spellcasting and Conjuring skills.
(And yes, I know that this the rules say otherwise - at least for the conjuring/spellcasting skills - , but imho it makes no sense, I simply assume that these skills were forgotten when the text was written. Spirits have a magic attribute, so theoretically you could say that they can learn conjuring, etc. anway - which doesn't make sense.
Edit: AND of course, it does NOT say, that the spirit keeps the qualities of the host - so the qualities "Adept", "Mystic Adept" or "Magician" (and even "Technomancer") are totaly LOST. Which means the spirit can't be an adept and imho it also means, that he can't use the conjuring and spellcasting skills.
Imho, the spirit does not retain magical abilities, qualities, etc. The spirit will not become an adept, if the host was an adept. And he probably can't use the Spellcasting and Conjuring skills.
(And yes, I know that this the rules say otherwise - at least for the conjuring/spellcasting skills - , but imho it makes no sense, I simply assume that these skills were forgotten when the text was written. Spirits have a magic attribute, so theoretically you could say that they can learn conjuring, etc. anway - which doesn't make sense.
Edit: AND of course, it does NOT say, that the spirit keeps the qualities of the host - so the qualities "Adept", "Mystic Adept" or "Magician" (and even "Technomancer") are totaly LOST. Which means the spirit can't be an adept and imho it also means, that he can't use the conjuring and spellcasting skills.
Irian, it does specifically state in Street Magic that Fleshform Inhabitations retain all the skills, abilities, memories, and appearance of the original host.
That means if the host was able to summon, the spirit inhabiting the host can do so as well (by virtue of inheriting that ability from the host via Inhabitation).
It also means they can use any DNI the host originally had at the time of Inhabitation.
Likewise, if the host was an Adept and had adept powers, the Inhabiting spirit would have them and would progress (magically) as an Adept.
There have been several discussions on this very thing. I believe one of them was titled "Munching out your Ally".
Now if you are houseruling it away to something more to your liking, knock yourself out. I'm just going by what the rules state.
I suspect the Inhabitation rules are implying that the original host was absorbed / subsumed during the Inhabitation. Which would explain why the host's memories, skills, abilities, etc are all transferred to the Inhabiting spirit.
That means if the host was able to summon, the spirit inhabiting the host can do so as well (by virtue of inheriting that ability from the host via Inhabitation).
It also means they can use any DNI the host originally had at the time of Inhabitation.
Likewise, if the host was an Adept and had adept powers, the Inhabiting spirit would have them and would progress (magically) as an Adept.
There have been several discussions on this very thing. I believe one of them was titled "Munching out your Ally".
Now if you are houseruling it away to something more to your liking, knock yourself out. I'm just going by what the rules state.
I suspect the Inhabitation rules are implying that the original host was absorbed / subsumed during the Inhabitation. Which would explain why the host's memories, skills, abilities, etc are all transferred to the Inhabiting spirit.
| QUOTE (darthmord) |
| Irian, it does specifically state in Street Magic that Fleshform Inhabitations retain all the skills, abilities, memories, and appearance of the original host. |
Yes, it does, but...
a) it doesn't say that the it retains all the qualities, too. So all specific adept, magician, mystic adept or technomancer features are lost, toegether with the quality.
b) imho it's simply an oversight that conjuring and spellcraft were not explicitly excluded there.
| QUOTE (darthmord) |
| IThat means if the host was able to summon, the spirit inhabiting the host can do so as well (by virtue of inheriting that ability from the host via Inhabitation). |
Imho, it should mean, that the spirit remembers how to summon but lacks the magician quality, so he can't actually do it himself. But that's just my interpretation.
| QUOTE (darthmord) |
| Likewise, if the host was an Adept and had adept powers, the Inhabiting spirit would have them and would progress (magically) as an Adept. |
Nope, that's plain wrong, even according to the rules: Neither qualities ("Adept") nor adept powers are retained. The spirit remembers how it was to be an adept, but he isn't an adept. Qualities are no abilities, skills or memories.
| QUOTE (darthmord) |
| I suspect the Inhabitation rules are implying that the original host was absorbed / subsumed during the Inhabitation. Which would explain why the host's memories, skills, abilities, etc are all transferred to the Inhabiting spirit. |
I suspect, that simply the brain is still there, so the spirit can access the bodies memories. But it lacks the "astral body" or sould of the real owner, which is destroyed in the process.
| QUOTE (Irian) |
| ... Nope, that's plain wrong, even according to the rules: Neither qualities ("Adept") nor adept powers are retained. The spirit remembers how it was to be an adept, but he isn't an adept. Qualities are no abilities, skills or memories. |
But adept powers certainly are "powers," which are retained.
My solution:
Assumption: Flesh forms were designed to be able to blend in with (non-spirit)Society. As such they are expected to be able to preform any action that the host would normally be able to preform so as to not give themselves away by suddenly losing their ability to cast spells, perform paralyzing howls (in the case of Bargest flesh-forms), or their extra initiative passes.*
The solution: Have an inhabited adept flesh-form retain the adept powers of the host, but lose the Adept quality. The flesh-form can still do everything the adept could do (and more) but can't advance in adept fashion. This is certainly not the most elegant solution but it seems to follow both the printed rules and the intent (as I see them) fairly well.
*Note: I would consider Summoning a valid exception to this trend. I think allowing Binding and Banishing would be all right though (provided that the spirit never has another spirit owe it services, it can still banish spirits back to the metaplanes, and has extra dice for some interactions with free spirits IIRC (from Binding)) Of course, this might conflict with the written rules (I can't remember whether they specify that Inhabitations can never learn Conjuring or Summoning).
I don't see where the rules say something about "powers". I just see something of "abilities"...
| QUOTE (Narse) |
| Assumption: Flesh forms were designed to be able to blend in with (non-spirit)Society. As such they are expected to be able to preform any action that the host would normally be able to preform so as to not give themselves away by suddenly losing their ability to cast spells, perform paralyzing howls (in the case of Bargest flesh-forms), or their extra initiative passes. |
Your assumption is incomplete. You also assume, that they are 100% efficient in doing so. I don't think so. Flesh Forms are not perfect beings sent from god to do something specific. They are just spirits who use the possibilty to take over a body. Nobody said that they must be perfect in doing so. They are still spirits, after all.
They are spirits that use a possibility. It's not like they created the possibility to fit their needs perfectly
| QUOTE (Narse) |
| The solution: Have an inhabited adept flesh-form retain the adept powers of the host, but lose the Adept quality. The flesh-form can still do everything the adept could do (and more) but can't advance in adept fashion. This is certainly not the most elegant solution but it seems to follow both the printed rules and the intent (as I see them) fairly well. |
I don't agree, but that's of course something that every group must decide for themselves. I would let them lose all magical abilities of the host, retaining only the memory of them.
| QUOTE (Irian) |
| ... Nobody said that they must be perfect in doing so. They are still spirits, after all. They are spirits that use a possibility. It's not like they created the possibility to fit their needs perfectly ... |
No, but the Devs created them to fulfill their needs (the Devs'). That is what I was referring to in my assumption. Flesh-forms need to be exceedingly hard to recognize for plot purposes (my interpretation) so they should be hard to recognize.
You know I was worrying about this stuff as well, but then I realized. "Hey I'm the GM I don't NEED to follow rules about this stuff." Seriously Insect Spirits are pretty much a GM tool as Insect Shamans and good merges are pretty much all NPCs. So it really doesn't matter that much what the Spirits stats should be. I've decided to use the rules as a guideline, throw out some numbers, and run with it.
If you want the spirit to be capable of summoning or casting spells, go for it! There is precedent for both these things, and even if there wasn't it could simply be something the streets have not yet encountered. How lucky for your runners to be the first!
If you want the spirit to be capable of summoning or casting spells, go for it! There is precedent for both these things, and even if there wasn't it could simply be something the streets have not yet encountered. How lucky for your runners to be the first!
I agree completely with your sentiment. There is only one problem, ally spirits can have the inhabitation power. Unfortunately the Players generally want to know exactly what it can and cannot do. So yes, if I ever run a bug hunt, I will make insect spirits do whatever I damn well please. The same goes for allies of NPCs, but if players are looking at ally conjuration.... I would want to be prepared. (and plus I enjoy the do-it-yourself game development that dealing with the vague areas in the print material requires)
Summoning a spirit (according to page 179 of the basic book) requires that:
A Fleshform Insect fulfills the last criteria, probably does not fulfill the second criteria, and in most cases does not fulfill the first criteria. Therefore: generally speaking a fleshform gets no summoning even if they took a body which came with the summoning skill.
An exception of course is Ally Spirits. They actually do get the Magician quality and a Tradition which can do normal summoning (in most instances). While they can't normally purchase a Summoning skill, they'll just have one if they take over a body which has the appropriate skill in the first place.
It's actually the reason that I didn't want Ally Spirits to have the Magician Quality but to instead have the "Sorcery" and "Magical Guard" powers. But in the end it was not my call.
-Frank
- You be a Magician.
- That you be the appropriate tradition to summon the spirit type.
- That you have a Summoning Skill (which in turn requires a Magic attribute)
A Fleshform Insect fulfills the last criteria, probably does not fulfill the second criteria, and in most cases does not fulfill the first criteria. Therefore: generally speaking a fleshform gets no summoning even if they took a body which came with the summoning skill.
An exception of course is Ally Spirits. They actually do get the Magician quality and a Tradition which can do normal summoning (in most instances). While they can't normally purchase a Summoning skill, they'll just have one if they take over a body which has the appropriate skill in the first place.
It's actually the reason that I didn't want Ally Spirits to have the Magician Quality but to instead have the "Sorcery" and "Magical Guard" powers. But in the end it was not my call.
-Frank
Well its always been my understanding (way back to 2nd edition) that Flesh Forms created with awakened individuals got their magical abilities. No I can't point to any one specific rule saying ya or nay to this but the fluff over the years has definitely supported this view. I have no problem with it as a GM but for those who do here is a suggestion. Why not say that those Flesh Forms who are products of awakened individuals have the additional power of spell casting? That little something extra in the awakened's make up causes the newly formed Flesh Form to be able to manipulate astral space through Spellcasting? Just a thought.
I don't remember any novel or adventure mentioning an "awakened" flesh form. Could you give an example?
Irian,
Not ignoring your request. Got into a car wreck on Tuesday and am a little indisposed right now. Vicadin and Muscle relaxants will do that for you. As soon as I can get ambulatory and think strait with out going "O Shiny" will dig up some references for you.
Not ignoring your request. Got into a car wreck on Tuesday and am a little indisposed right now. Vicadin and Muscle relaxants will do that for you. As soon as I can get ambulatory and think strait with out going "O Shiny" will dig up some references for you.
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