I mortgage myself to the limit and use the money to pay a mage to quicken/anchor/ritually cast an increase intelligence, increase charisma and increase willpower spell. Suddenly the world is my oyster.
Why don't we see more of this? There must be tons of guys doing it.
Also, surely every mage/shaman worth his salt is going to quickly slap an increase willpower spell on themselves?
Yet somehow this is something that doesn't crop up that often in game. Why not? Rarity of magician? I just don't buy that. Surely no more than 1% of the population are estate agents, but that doesn't stop everyone else using them to buy houses.
Full Version: I live in the SR3 world...
'cause the magical security community frowns upon your shenanigans . . and wards simply destroy them, leaving you the way you were before . . dumb, ugly and weak-willed, sitting on the cost of the first treatment and having to pay a second time to get back up to par . .
Wards! Licensing requirements for spells above Force 2. Licensing problems with Health spells in general. Astral hooligans (Spirit or otherwise) destroying your investment. Etcetera.
Difficulty getting significant numbers of successes if you've got a decent stat to begin with. Difficulty getting a mage who is willing to leave his or her astral signature floating around with you at all times.
~J
~J
What good does having those spells really do, though? (I mean, if you're not a pc, since mages do that all the time.) It seems like you'd mortgage your whole life to get some buffs that can be taken down at any time, and really don't help that much. If you have a CHA 10 and a low negotiation skill, you're still going to suck at negotiations.
Something my group flirted with doing, back when there were four magicians in one game, was kidnapping a squatter, buffing him out the wazoo, controlling him with Manipulation spells and making him do the run (or at least, the super dangerous heavy lifting), and then cleansing the astral signatures and leaving him on a street corner.
Something my group flirted with doing, back when there were four magicians in one game, was kidnapping a squatter, buffing him out the wazoo, controlling him with Manipulation spells and making him do the run (or at least, the super dangerous heavy lifting), and then cleansing the astral signatures and leaving him on a street corner.
| QUOTE (Mercer @ Dec 15 2007, 10:01 AM) |
| What good does having those spells really do, though? |
Dunno. I never bother using them, as in my opinion the negatives outweigh the positives. Their opposite numbers, the spells that decrease Attributes are not really worth it either, as they are limited to touch, although in SR3 you can raise the Drain Code of Health Spells to make a spell LOS instead of Touch.
| QUOTE (Mercer) |
| What good does having those spells really do, though? (I mean, if you're not a pc, since mages do that all the time.) It seems like you'd mortgage your whole life to get some buffs that can be taken down at any time, and really don't help that much. If you have a CHA 10 and a low negotiation skill, you're still going to suck at negotiations. |
That's pretty much the only social skill that's true for, though. You directly roll Charisma to counter Racism Points (at least, you would if you used that rule—I have yet to encounter it or a report of it in actual play), your Charisma is the TN for someone to influence you with Etiquette, and having a Charisma of 7 or greater gives you -2 or your target +2 (depending on the appropriate direction) TN for resisting Intimidation/Interrogation tests (5/6 is -1/+1). You get no benefit when proactively using Etiquette, or when using Negotiation or Leadership, but assuming you aren't being raised from highly charismatic to inhumanly charismatic, there are a lot of big benefits.
Also, just think about the benefits of adding a few points to your Intelligence. I'd say it's the mages who'd be the ones not getting enough benefit, not the buyers.
~J
Quickening costs the magician karma. Anchoring or sustaining foci also cost karma to bond, and the spellcaster can only have so many active at a time or risk focus addiction and magic loss. Ritually sustaining doesn't usually last that long and takes a lot of time and ritual materials, and maybe several members to get a longer sustained time.
Not to mention that cyber and bioware are easier to obtain, cheaper to buy, stand out less (especially for the things you're talking about) and are a much better oyster-opening tool than buffed attributes. To make your intelligence and processing power greater there's the Math SPU and Encephalon. There's also brain bio like the mnemonic enhancer that helps. For charisma we all know cultured tailored pheremones would be worth mortgaging the house for.
I can think of one canon example of a group of mundanes practicing quickening buffs, and that's the Yakuza. They're known to give quickened spells in enchanted ink to certain members, although I can't imagine everyone going for it, especially not stealthy types, as no-one wants to alert the mage as soon as you get anywhere near a target and move through a ward.
I can think of one canon example of a group of mundanes practicing quickening buffs, and that's the Yakuza. They're known to give quickened spells in enchanted ink to certain members, although I can't imagine everyone going for it, especially not stealthy types, as no-one wants to alert the mage as soon as you get anywhere near a target and move through a ward.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Also, just think about the benefits of adding a few points to your Intelligence. I'd say it's the mages who'd be the ones not getting enough benefit, not the buyers. |
Yeah, but Negotiation is also the skill that would most likely make you some money. If you're mortgaging your whole life to afford these three quickened spells, I would think you're hoping for some payoff. I'm not saying being more charismatic, intelligent and willful wouldn't be a boon, I just don't see it being that profitable if you don't have the skills to back it up.
A cerebral booster, encephalon and tailored pheremones get you over half way there, and can't be knocked out by wards or mean-spirited mages. They're expensive, Quickening (if you can even find a mage willing to do it). The only way Quickening would make sense was if it was drastically cheaper than cyber and bio, and that is highly unlikely.
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
Dunno. I never bother using them, as in my opinion the negatives outweigh the positives. Their opposite numbers, the spells that decrease Attributes are not really worth it either, as they are limited to touch, although in SR3 you can raise the Drain Code of Health Spells to make a spell LOS instead of Touch. |
It is fun to lob a LOS version of Reduce Charisma at a politician midway through a rally...or any public figure really...
...of course the payback is going to be a bear...
...but thats why you convinced a Wizganger to do it instead of you anyway, wasn't it?
| QUOTE (Mercer @ Dec 15 2007, 05:47 AM) |
| Yeah, but Negotiation is also the skill that would most likely make you some money. If you're mortgaging your whole life to afford these three quickened spells, I would think you're hoping for some payoff. I'm not saying being more charismatic, intelligent and willful wouldn't be a boon, I just don't see it being that profitable if you don't have the skills to back it up. A cerebral booster, encephalon and tailored pheremones get you over half way there, and can't be knocked out by wards or mean-spirited mages. They're expensive, Quickening (if you can even find a mage willing to do it). The only way Quickening would make sense was if it was drastically cheaper than cyber and bio, and that is highly unlikely. |
See now, the claim that it's not worth it compared to other options is one I can agree with, though there are still edge cases (Bio-Rejection or anti-implantation personal beliefs being the most obvious pair). The claim that it doesn't help, or even that it doesn't help much, isn't.
~J
The guy is going to be perceptive, hard to affect with magic (at least until the mage or dual-natured creature blasts the spells), and likeable. Not bad things, but I don't see how that alone is going to make the characters recoup the cash that he paid to get the spells Quickened, much less get much richer.
To put another way, let's say I made a character with Tailored Pheremones, Cerebral Booster 2 and Encephalon 2, and something else that gave me a bonus to Willpower. Without the relevant skills to back that up, I'm just the guy in the group who Notices Things, and occasionally gets sent to talk to people (although not important people, or when money is involved). You layer those on a character who is already good at those things, that character can be great. You layer them on someone who is not good at those things, the character really doesn't get that much better. Other than perception, the skill dice are almost always what you're using to get the job done. (No matter how great the backing stat is, if you've only got 3 dice in something, you can only get three successes.)
Pretty much every mage I saw in game that Initiated took Quickening and increased their Charisma and Willpower, unless they were so focused on Conjuring or Spellcasting they only decided to do one. That was a pretty big power increase for mages, generally within their first 20 Karma points (whatever they paid for initiating plus at least a point per spell) they'd get a +4ish bonus to Body, Quickness, Charisma, Intelligence and Willpower. (Considering that their CIW was already probably close to max, these might only get a +2, but that's nothing to sneeze at.) So its not that it isn't useful, its just that as the OP implied, if that's your only claim to fame you're going to be trailing the people with the higher skill dice. That's a far cry from the world being your oyster.
To put another way, let's say I made a character with Tailored Pheremones, Cerebral Booster 2 and Encephalon 2, and something else that gave me a bonus to Willpower. Without the relevant skills to back that up, I'm just the guy in the group who Notices Things, and occasionally gets sent to talk to people (although not important people, or when money is involved). You layer those on a character who is already good at those things, that character can be great. You layer them on someone who is not good at those things, the character really doesn't get that much better. Other than perception, the skill dice are almost always what you're using to get the job done. (No matter how great the backing stat is, if you've only got 3 dice in something, you can only get three successes.)
Pretty much every mage I saw in game that Initiated took Quickening and increased their Charisma and Willpower, unless they were so focused on Conjuring or Spellcasting they only decided to do one. That was a pretty big power increase for mages, generally within their first 20 Karma points (whatever they paid for initiating plus at least a point per spell) they'd get a +4ish bonus to Body, Quickness, Charisma, Intelligence and Willpower. (Considering that their CIW was already probably close to max, these might only get a +2, but that's nothing to sneeze at.) So its not that it isn't useful, its just that as the OP implied, if that's your only claim to fame you're going to be trailing the people with the higher skill dice. That's a far cry from the world being your oyster.
This is why SR4 is great. If you have a high stat, you can compensate for a lack of skill, though not nearly as readily. Skill is still important, but investing in a stat heavily will also pay dividends.
| QUOTE (wargear) | ||||
It is fun to lob a LOS version of Reduce Charisma at a politician midway through a rally...or any public figure really... ...of course the payback is going to be a bear... ...but thats why you convinced a Wizganger to do it instead of you anyway, wasn't it? |
"My religosity makes me balance the budget for the children...*zap*...WHILE I NUKE THE GAY WHALES!!!"
I don't think wards would be much of an issue. A ward has to follow the contours of the physical object it is placed on. Unless I'm going to be walking through walls it won't be a problem. Mana barriers will be a problem, but how often does your average joe encounter them?
As for the benefits!!! A 3 point shift is the difference between the average guy and the normal maximum! Those intelligence 6 guys have a huge advantage in the labour market over normal people, and with top end willpower you can have the drive and ambition to use it. Not to mention your average joe gets better (easier) results. He could quite easily go from straight 3s up to 9s across the board.
In game terms it becomes easier to increase your negotiation skill (Charisma reduces the karma cost, Willpower allows you to do it quicker).
MitS lists a base price of around 5,000 nuyen per point of karma for anchoring and the like. Can't remember exactly so don't crucify me on that! So if you get Force 6 increase spells across the board Quickened at effective Force 12 it costs 180,000 nuyen. Surely a family home can't be much beyond that price?
As for the astral vandals... a Force 12 spell is non-trivial, so they would have to be skilled astral vandals! Not to mention that mages aren't going to be dispelling it very easily either.
Suddenly Mr. Average is the smartest guy on the block, he is charismatic and willful and his 999 power load is better than the 555 guy with cerebral booster and tailored pheremones.
As for the benefits!!! A 3 point shift is the difference between the average guy and the normal maximum! Those intelligence 6 guys have a huge advantage in the labour market over normal people, and with top end willpower you can have the drive and ambition to use it. Not to mention your average joe gets better (easier) results. He could quite easily go from straight 3s up to 9s across the board.
In game terms it becomes easier to increase your negotiation skill (Charisma reduces the karma cost, Willpower allows you to do it quicker).
MitS lists a base price of around 5,000 nuyen per point of karma for anchoring and the like. Can't remember exactly so don't crucify me on that! So if you get Force 6 increase spells across the board Quickened at effective Force 12 it costs 180,000 nuyen. Surely a family home can't be much beyond that price?
As for the astral vandals... a Force 12 spell is non-trivial, so they would have to be skilled astral vandals! Not to mention that mages aren't going to be dispelling it very easily either.
Suddenly Mr. Average is the smartest guy on the block, he is charismatic and willful and his 999 power load is better than the 555 guy with cerebral booster and tailored pheremones.
| QUOTE (ShaunClinton) |
| In game terms it becomes easier to increase your negotiation skill (Charisma reduces the karma cost, Willpower allows you to do it quicker). |
I really don't think a Quickened Stat gives you a cheaper karma cost on the skill. And Wards cover doorways. And you're still ice cream for freaks to any mean-spirited magically active person that wants to pop your spells like they were balloons.
Even if this stat 3/3/3 guy ponied up the 540,000 nuyen to get the three spells Quickened (going off the 180k figure you provided), they then have to not only recoup those losses before the spells are lost or destroyed, you also have to turn a profit. It seems like the guy would be better off buying a lifetime Middle Lifestyle and calling it a day.
The other thing about the 3/3/3 guy becoming the 9/9/9 guy is if he is going to be successful, that means he's going to be taking nuyen or food off someone else's plate. It may cost him 540k to get those spells Quickened, but if the first enemy he makes can hire a mage to bust them for 1/100th of that cost, then our schmoe is just a 3/3/3 guy with 540k in debt. I think the first thing our guy is going to think when he goes from INT 3 to INT 9 is, "Holy crap, I'm screwed! I should never have done this."
Having a Quickened spell on the stat will count for skill increases as they count for natural in almost every way. Immediate benefit.
As for wards over doors, when the door is open there is no ward in that space - physical contours. That's why it is always an idea for the projecting mage to have an elemental with him - someone to manifest and open the doors. Check MitS for more on this.
As for being ice cream - how many people are going to regularly assense you in order to see your Quickened spells? And if they do, how many are going to decide to have a pop at them. Mundane looking guy with 3 Force 12 Quickened spells? Best not mess with him - maybe I just can't break his masking! Even if I do, people with the ability to "pop them like balloons" aren't that common and will have better things to do with their time.
The 180,000 nuyen was for all 3 spells.
Once he gets to Intelligence 9 he'll probably start thinking of ever more ingenious ways to safeguard his investment. Hire a dumb mage who hasn't done the same thing, but an amulet that masks him, etc.
Say our guy also has Computer 3 (office drone programmer). It would have cost him 18 karma to hit Computer 5 - Now he gets Computer 4 (Programming
for 18 karma! And he can start cutting it.
Enemies - one of the few areas in which you will need to be careful! However he can become a master programmer and work from home, thus limiting his exposure until he generates sufficient cash to prevent this.
Anyway, I've picked mundane guys for a bit of a hoot. I still think they would, but I'm more wondering why Damien Knight doesn't have a group of space mages Quickening ritualised Increase Intelligence spells onto him! It just seems that most of the powerful individuals in SR fail to take full advantage of the magic and tech on offer.
As for wards over doors, when the door is open there is no ward in that space - physical contours. That's why it is always an idea for the projecting mage to have an elemental with him - someone to manifest and open the doors. Check MitS for more on this.
As for being ice cream - how many people are going to regularly assense you in order to see your Quickened spells? And if they do, how many are going to decide to have a pop at them. Mundane looking guy with 3 Force 12 Quickened spells? Best not mess with him - maybe I just can't break his masking! Even if I do, people with the ability to "pop them like balloons" aren't that common and will have better things to do with their time.
The 180,000 nuyen was for all 3 spells.
Once he gets to Intelligence 9 he'll probably start thinking of ever more ingenious ways to safeguard his investment. Hire a dumb mage who hasn't done the same thing, but an amulet that masks him, etc.
Say our guy also has Computer 3 (office drone programmer). It would have cost him 18 karma to hit Computer 5 - Now he gets Computer 4 (Programming
for 18 karma! And he can start cutting it.Enemies - one of the few areas in which you will need to be careful! However he can become a master programmer and work from home, thus limiting his exposure until he generates sufficient cash to prevent this.
Anyway, I've picked mundane guys for a bit of a hoot. I still think they would, but I'm more wondering why Damien Knight doesn't have a group of space mages Quickening ritualised Increase Intelligence spells onto him! It just seems that most of the powerful individuals in SR fail to take full advantage of the magic and tech on offer.
| QUOTE (ShaunClinton) |
| As for wards over doors, when the door is open there is no ward in that space - physical contours. ... Check MitS for more on this. |
Methinks you need to re-read the Wards section yourself.
| QUOTE (SR3 FAQ) |
| What shape do wards take? Do astral barriers conform exactly to the shape of their physical components? Can the physical component a ward or astral barrier have gaps, like a window or a door? Can you place a ward on a net? When created or activated, an astral barrier usually conforms to the shape of its physical components. Astral barriers usually enclose a volume area; there's little point in putting a barrier on a flat surface, since the barrier can be bypassed by going around it. In some cases, in order to enclose this volume, the barrier will not conform to any physical part; this is the case with hermetic circles, for example, which create a dome-shaped barrier even though there is no physical dome. You could, for example, ward the space between two buildings, forming a cubic barrier, even though you only have two walls and the ground as physical components; the ward would still stretch across the empty areas. Openings like doors and windows can also be covered by the barrier; these openings do not create an opening into the warded area, even if the door or window is opened at a later time. Essentially, the creator of the barrier decides what shape the barrier conforms to and what areas of space it traverses. The boundaries of the barrier must be clearly defined. Once the barrier is activated, its shape cannot be changed. It also cannot be moved from its physical component to another location. The barrier is immobile, so it cannot be activated on something that is worn or carried, like nets, shields or armor, as it will deactivate as soon as it is moved. It is, however, possible to ward areas inside of ships, trains, cars and trucks. |
Note the sentence I emphasized, but most of the rest of the answer should also be of interest to you.
| QUOTE (ShaunClinton) |
| Having a Quickened spell on the stat will count for skill increases as they count for natural in almost every way. Immediate benefit. |
I have a feeling most GMs would poo-poo this right out of the gate. Quickening is essentially a sustaining focus without the focus. If a character had a Inc Int spell in a focus, I don't see them raising their Int skills any cheaper no matter how long they left it on. The only exception to when an improved stat is considered natural is the Phys Ad Imp Att ability. Other than that, natural means natural. (For example, if the schmoe wanted to raise his INT, he wouldn't have to raise it from 9 to 10, but from 3 to 4.)
| QUOTE |
| As for being ice cream - how many people are going to regularly assense you in order to see your Quickened spells? And if they do, how many are going to decide to have a pop at them. Mundane looking guy with 3 Force 12 Quickened spells? Best not mess with him - maybe I just can't break his masking! Even if I do, people with the ability to "pop them like balloons" aren't that common and will have better things to do with their time. |
It only takes one. And there are a lot of situations when its a lot worse for a schmoe to be mistaken for a high level adept with several quickened spells than to be taken for what he is, a schmoe with some Quickened spells. ("Holy crap, its apparently an initiate with masking. We better hit him with fifteen tasers and blow up all his spells.") Plus, masking covers quickened spells, so it seems like magical security would be much more likely to think it was a schmoe that some high level inititate has sent on a suicide mission.
| QUOTE |
| The 180,000 nuyen was for all 3 spells. |
Fair enough. Still, even if he can find a mage to cast it, he still needs to make more money than he spent. Higher attributes, particularly without the skills to back them up, I don't see translating into immediate big cash rewards. Even if it made him more likely to get a promotion at his job (which I think it would), the benefits go away the first time some vindictive executive pays any mage a couple hundred bucks to pop some astral balloons.
| QUOTE |
| Once he gets to Intelligence 9 he'll probably start thinking of ever more ingenious ways to safeguard his investment. Hire a dumb mage who hasn't done the same thing, but an amulet that masks him, etc. |
Whenever the plan hinges on finding a dumb initiate magician, its a good sign we need to return to the drawing board.
| QUOTE |
| Anyway, I've picked mundane guys for a bit of a hoot. I still think they would, but I'm more wondering why Damien Knight doesn't have a group of space mages Quickening ritualised Increase Intelligence spells onto him! It just seems that most of the powerful individuals in SR fail to take full advantage of the magic and tech on offer. |
I think the reason you don't see a lot of Quickened spells on people like Damien Knight is because they aren't statted out all that often. I think most big names, particularly those with the resources of a megacorporation or a great dragon (or both, in the case of Lofwyr), are going to be loaded down with Quickened and Anchored spells and probably some bound spirits at minimum. (The anchored Detect Bullet/Bullet Barrier combo is probably SOP for any important person of the appropriate level of resource, as are a variety of other spell combos.)
The reason I think you don't see more schmoes going this route is, as I've outlined above, that the risk outweighs the rewards. They really don't get that much out of it, they have to pay a lot of money to get it, and the benefits can be taken away at any time through methods they have no defense against. (For instance, having a 9 Willpower makes you extremely resistant to magical attacks, except that anyone who wanted to affect you with something magical could just as easily blow up your Quickened spells.)
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