Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: My take on the matrix
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Ddays
I've read Frank's new rules on the matrix and I think it's great to have actual working rules for the matrix instead of the whatever that's in the core. I'm not very good at making up balanced rules myself, but I do have some conceptions on the basis of Shadowrun technology that I would like to be commented upon, just to see if I'm on track.

Why close circuit is impossible

Ok, close circuit is just silly on a gameplay point of view, we all know this. It's silly to make a character immune to any matrix actions if they just choose to not take a commlink. And while you may argue not being able to use the matrix is a disadvantage in itself, there are really no in game benefits to being on the matrix, only flaws. Ok, communication becomes more difficult, but with astral projection and the like, it's not an impossible barrier to overcome. There are ways to gather info without doing it yourself. Basically, there are no real in game justification by the raw, anything woud have to be made up by the GM himself. Well it may be reasonable to say that without an active PAN it becomes impossible to do things that we take for granted like rent a car or transfer creds, everything there is up to GM discretion, and GM discretion means more judgment time worrying about details that the comprehensive rules should have covered instead of telling a story.

So, I believe that closed circuit/off matrix activity should be sufficiently worse to make it a non attractive option for both the players and the corps. Why the hell would anybody use the matrix for anything but outside information transfer if they had the option not to? Why the hell would a toaster have sensitive trid processing chips for the hotsim hacker when it's clear that there would be no way for it to be economically feasible?

The solution is simple - massively parallel processing. The world of Shadowrun as we know it handwave away issues of bandwidth transfer speeds and memory storage. What I see this representing is an extension of what we already have in the real world, using a network of computers all working on the same problem. What if instead of each appliance having a separate unreasonably powerful processor, every technological object on the entire planet shared processing power using the advanced parallel processing architecture of future. Any time a processor is idle of its own tasks, it gets sent instructions to process from another processor elsewhere. That way, there's no time wasted, and everything worldwide gains a massive performance advantage. Response time and system rating would be representative of a particular devices ability to send out these requests at coprocessing and thread their results into a reasonable whole.

What about signal, you ask? If everything is capable of the data it sends out worldwide, what does signal strength represent? Of course, there would be protocol that stipulates the frequencies of data transfers. Parallel processing requests would be on a different width than significant data communication transfers. And attempts to use either one for the other would either result in no message getting through or be immediately transparent. Signal strength is therefore a measure of practical transmission range instead of the how far your processing requests can go being bounded and rebounded off a multitude of machines with excess free time.

However, this power comes at a cost. That is, to take advantage of the world's processing capabilities, you have to connect yourself to the matrix. To get full processing power, whatever chip you have in your own rig will never be enough, you need the world, and by extension the matrix. So it's not that corps connect themselves to the matrix because they like security risks, it is because that's the cheapest, simplest way to massive processing power. Anything unconnected has access only to its own hardware computing power and suffers a significant performance hit. So much so that it might as well be archaic and worthless in comparison.

Of course, given enough money and resources, you can construct a subgrid that's unconnected to the matrix main. But a closed grid with enough raw processing power to even compare to power of the matrix would be hideously expensive and reserved for the most black of projects, and out of reach for most shadowrunners, I'm talking basements and basements worth of computers. So when you found a submatrix disconnected, you have something special.

This forced connectivity also requires markedbly new security techniques from the ones we are used to. It's now impossible to just "go offline" because once you're offline, you're nothing. So instead of security preventing stray logins, they simply obfuscate any secret and pertinent data with false trails. Encryption is nigh impossible since even the most complex algorithm can be broken quickly with the massive processor power available, so instead of a single complex stream, just send out tons of them. Only the most dedicated hackers have the intuition and knowledge to find out what is what.

Ok, we know why corps don't disconnect, but what about PCs? There I have a harder problem reconciling mechanical necessities and flavor. If I was a perfect GM, I could invent the perfect penalties to being offline (not being to start a car cause you don't have the proper authentication code that was stored in your commlink that refuses to function offline would be a good reason). Something so core to the game should have a strong mechanical link, since working things into storytelling eats up valuable story telling time and I would rather things like this get settled by dice so that I can tell my story. I believe a small penalty skill checks for being without AR aide (like looking up wikipedia on the side to refresh memory, only in a Shadowrun setting), thought I respect the brain hacking idea put forth by Frank as well as the GMs who decide on a case by case basis (you're a better man than I if you can do this).

IC

ICs are simply static defenses of a particular system and cannot be moved or transferred. They are there or not there in defense of a system, and a single system can't have more than one IC. IC can't team up because there's nothing to team up with, technically speaking, no system can have more than one active at a time. IC work by creating a environment hostile to the hacker. Of course, if IC can only defend against intrusions against a network, how will corps punish the ones who do get away? Agents. Agents use a specialized network protocol that allows vigilantism on the Matrix. Basically, they turn the IC of the current network a hacker is in against a specified user. The agent takes over for the IC in the network, so there's no problem with IC with multiple Agents and so forth and so on. Why aren't agents and ICs independent agents? The basic framework is similar enough to the point that having 2 is simply redundant. Human hackers, even the most basic, are smarter than ICs to a point. Unless you have true AI, you're not getting artificial agents to team up and gangbang a hacker. Which is exactly why megacorps research AI, having a true AI means you get to go agent smith and win at the matrix. It's unfortunate that the ones we do have pretty much go off on their own agendas.

So there you go, there's my attempt to reconcile the Shadowrun matrix. Any ideas or suggestions? Am I totally off base?
Aaron
Seems like it would be tough to have runs that were away from technologically advanced areas if the team include cybered folks.
kzt
There are a lot of silly aspects of SR matrix and history that just don't make a lot of sense in any rational way. This is one of the things that causes such huge issues with trying to write rules, as the brain dead "duh, lets crash the world computer network again, and destroy all the data again, just like we did last week" that is a recurring plot device in SR is just not very believable. It's about as believable as SR saying that everyone decided that since fires are rare that nobody is going to provide fire extinguishers or sprinklers anywhere, as well as abolishing all the fire departments.

If you really want to maintain the nonsensical sacred history where there these bizarre world shattering computer disasters keep happening and nothing anyone can do can stop them you have to resort to some pretty outlandish ideas to make it work. This isn't a bad one. Franks is perfectly logical as another way. Me, I prefer to just ignore the idiocy.
deek
I will argue with the OP that there are no RAW benefits for being on the matrix. There is a sidebar encouraging +1 to +3 AR modifiers to characters that use it (pg 208). I think many GMs and players overlook the intention of this.

I normally default to giving my players a +2 bonus to all tests that could incorporate the added AR information in the given test. That's basically a free specialization for almost all your skills...which is a pretty big bonus.

So with my players, no one is really wanting to miss out on those AR perks and keep their commlink on all the time!
Nightwalker450
Also overlooked or maybe GM's just don't look at it is that your commlink holds your identity. Not having a commlink is equivilent to running in hidden mode which in any upper district will be looked upon as very suspicious. Of course any decent runner usually has 2 commlinks one for the broadcasting of SIN's and their runner link as a seperate one always in hidden. Also you would always be paying by credstick, now this works for black market goods, but you also have lifestyle costs to pay which above Squatter will need an identity to link to. Operating wirelessly and open is the way to lay low. Unless you want to be one of the only people in Seattle without a commlink, and stopped by every security person on the street because you don't have a SIN or at least you're not broadcasting it, and you're paying for your Big Mac's and your rent, and your toilet paper with a cred stick. Most of the wireless activity is flavor, all you have to do as a GM is handle the reprecussions of being SINless.
deek
Yes, that is a very good point. Not having a commlink and broadcasting puts you in the minority AND actually draws more attention to you...

I'm glad you mentioned that!
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (deek)
Yes, that is a very good point. Not having a commlink and broadcasting puts you in the minority AND actually draws more attention to you...

I'm glad you mentioned that!

...but there's no reason to put any important information on that commlink nor to give it access to any devices or sensitive materials. And there's certainly no reason to allow it access to your neural network.

Yeah, everyone has a commlink. But like everything on the Matrix it fills up with viruses and porn, so if you aren't a dumbass you segregate it from anything you care about. And then the problem solves itself.

-Frank
Whipstitch
If you do your job right as a runner you do your illegal stuff via credsticks and barter just like all the other scumbags who have a vested interest in staying anonymous. Your commlink is for fake IDs, travel directions, btl porn and ordering burgers.


...


I wish we could delete these posts. When I first started opened the post window Frank hadn't replied yet and now it's all rather redundant.
Kyoto Kid
...this is why I miss the old Cyberdeck. You only needed to turn it on when you were going to crack the matrix. Otherwise, for daily routine stuff there was your cell phone, PS and credsticks. grinbig.gif
Cthulhudreams
KK is a classic example of the mentality Frank and whipstitch are driving at - she openly admits to using her commlink as a cellphone for all non hacker characters biggrin.gif wink.gif
Whipstitch
Yeah, I would rather think a lot of the old school runners would be torn between KK's and Slamm-O's perspectives: the less tech savvy types are horrified by how vulnerable the wireless world is while the skilled Hackers realize the world is their oyster as long as they don't tip their hand too early. And the real paranoid guys probably have plenty of sleepness nights because they realize that one person with bad matrix security habits knowing too much about them could be enough to blow their cover and get them killed. Suddenly FastJack's never meet anyone in the meat policy makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams)
KK is a classic example of the mentality Frank and whipstitch are driving at - she openly admits to using her commlink as a cellphone for all non hacker characters biggrin.gif wink.gif

...well technically, that's all a commlink really is, albeit a Swiss Army/Leatherman Tool version that does just about everything except make the soycaff. This is one of the longstanding beefs I have with the whole wireless matrix and its ubiquitous presence.

I feel that the wireless matrix and commlink has taken a lot of what attracted me to Shadowrun away. Anonymity, being truly SINless, really doesn't work anymore. There are datatrails & commlink codes which are exchanged, recorded and broadcast on a daily basis. There are PANs and devices that are subscribed to, all leaving a trail as wide as a 6 lane motorway. Yet, without a commlink you are basically considered a criminal and can be hauled off to the lockup if you get caught in the wrong neighbourhood without pinging your presence.

In a way it is like, for example, outlawing all cash transactions in RL and requiring everyone to carry a credit/debit card (& mind you the powers that be are striving for this).

Yes there are fake SINs & Fake Licenses. but they are still connected to the character and in order to stay a step ahead you almost have to change them like a wageslave changes socks. Mind you, very expensive socks.

Before the '64 crash, transactions were done via credsticks and anonymity could be maintained. If the cred on the stick was good there were usually no questions asked unless you were in some ultra tres chic establishment spending nuyen.gif like a sailor on leave. Now you can't even go to a Stuffer Shack without leaving your digital thumb-print behind.

Calls were made via cellphones or your Pocket Secretary and cell tranmisions were harder to trace. If you were afraid that the authorities managed to catch on to your telecom number, you tossed the phone away, got another one and maybe were out 50 - 100 nuyen.gif instead of several thousand. Communications in the field during Shadow ops were usually done via Micro-transceivers with every team member on the same encrypted frequency with a bit of ECCM to overcome jamming. Now it's all this subscribing to so & so's PAN, running everything though the Matrix Specialist's commlink & whatnot. In these aspects, the game seems to have become more complex rather than streamlined.

KK (the character - #75) never had to be concerned about the matrix or computers, that was a Decker's job. In fact in previous editions she had the Computer Illiterate flaw. Yet she still got along pretty fine dealing with day to day life and was a valuable member of the team she ran with. Now unless she knows how to manipulate a commlink, perform a data search, edit a file, spoof her datatrail, she is utterly helpless in daily life and a liability to the other runners on her team.

For me that takes some of the enjoyment out of the game as I deal with computers daily in RL and sometimes find it fun to to kick back and play a character who doesn't. The character KK is a gunslinger adept, that is what she is good at, that is what she is supposed to be good at. It's too bad they never included just plain old cell phones in the gear list for that is what she (and other non Matrix based characters) would carry in lieu of commlinks for that is about all they really need.

Apologies for the rant but IMO this is the one thing I feel has really ruined the feel of the game. mad.gif
kzt
But they pretend it really hasn't, and never follow through on the various obvious secondary effects....
Ryu
The wireless matrix is everywhere. Everyone participates, willingly or not. Even if you don´t carry a comlink, there are security cameras and whatnot recording your presence. If you have cyberware installed, you are traceable by your ware.

The game got indeed more complex because everyone has to consider matrix security issues. The effects are not thought through so far, else BioFeedbackFilters would not be an expensive hacking program, but a common program that gets started as soon as a DNI connection is established.

I do think that one can live without SIN, if the campaign stresses the outsider aspect of the running community. Yes, you can´t go shopping in downtown without SIN. But you can stay in Redmond all the time, leaving only for running purposes. Z-zones become the habitat for criminals. On the higher end of the payscale, discarding a SIN after the run is certainly feasible. And for paranoia, you do not need to discard the whole comlink, you just need to change your personal identification number for the matrix. An electronics specialist would certainly do that for you, and charge no more than the 100 bucks you where used to.

Consider each corp to keep its data private. LoneStar offers a SIN-checking service - for its customers - but does not get data on your exact purchase because your SIN is checked. Data is money, and sharing gives money away. Complete integration of databases would kill SR. But as long as you do not have a central SIN+payments account, the SIN is only invalidated and dangerous if it becomes flagged as criminal. LS can only trace you via transactions verified with LS, as opposed to KE, Minuteman Security etc. Multiple SINs + multiple security providers + living in a bad area of town = some form of anonymity. The hardships one has to go through to achive that are a form of Neo-Anarchism IMO. Privacy is a privilege one has to work for, while the wageslaves tell you that they don´t care. Don´t need to care, even.
Nightwalker450
Personally I like the SIN paranoia. Playing the Specialist of the group I am very much about covering our data trail, and as a Technomancer in 2070, I'm extremely towards hiding my mark on the world.

I was a go between at the beginning with multiple runner teams contacting me for information the Johnson had forwarded me. Once I had joined a team, and collected Nuyen from a few other teams which I gave false data to, I changed my commlink ID, and number.

I have registered my Rating 1 SIN into databases where I needed access (he's now a student at Seattle University). I have intercepted someone's pan signal they used to access security doors, and then loaded it into a cheap commlink that was discarded during the run (also contained a video feed that was patched into a wired security camera to cover for us).

My second rating 1 SIN now has one point of notoriety due to Lone Star being sent to the squatter hole where I was living. Now I am paying for 2 squatter life styles using 2 different ID's (hence the multiple rating 1's). So if I have to run out the back door of 1, I'm not spending a few nights on the street till I get another.

Our Face is currently looking for yet another Rating 1, and a Rating 6 SIN for me. The rating 6 one I won't use yet, but start hacking to build more data trail, and spend some nuyen also in the process. My GM will allow me to boost the rating on this every so often (weeks, or months...), and when it reaches a rating 10, it will be considered a new identity for me. My technomancer has a real SIN, but hasn't used it since he ran away 4 years ago.
Kyoto Kid
...but this is exactly what I'm talking about. There are really no more "shadows" as we knew them. In a sense the Commlink also functions like an aircraft transponder. You show up as an unidentified "blip" on the VORTAC's scopes without a code & next thing you know there are two F-16s vectoring in on your tail. Relating to the game, it doesn't matter if your expensive forged SIN reads Adolphe Menjou or Howdy Doody. You're seen on candid camera, your location is pinpointed via your commlink and here comes the Star welcome wagon (or worse).

Yeah I guess that could be considered dystopian in an Orwellian way of thinking, but if I always wanted that level of paranoia for my characters, I'd play Paranoia (which by the way is actually a pretty amusing game).

True, you don't have to throw out the commlink with the SIN, but those SINs don't come cheap and by the availability rules, are not all that easy to find when you do have to dispose of them (rating 4 is 12F - that's a lot of time you have to lay low while your fixer is trying to scrounge a new one up for you). And what if your doss is in a C or B neighbourhood? How do you get by until your shiny new SIN chip arrives? This is just one of the secondary effects kzt and Ryu alluded to that really hasn't been covered all that well.

My frustration is that now every character almost has to be a matrix based character just to get by in day to day life. If I want to mess with the matrix I run a Decker or Matrix Specialist. If I just want to shoot people in the face, blow up a building, or toss a Toxic Wave someone's way I should only need be concerned how much ammo I have in the clip, how many Kilos of C-12 will be needed, or whether I can shake down the Drain and stay standing.

Dealing with datatrails, subscriptions and SINs seems more like playing Papers & Paychecques than Shadowrun IMO.
Ryu
I think there is a more workable interpretation of RAW. The SIN is only checked on a limited number of occasions. And I do not recall that all personal matrix codes have to be registered to a SIN. So you can well have as many personal matrix codes (the equivalent of a web adress) as you want. So have a "black" matrix code from Jackpoint or some other shadow organisation that misplaces trace orders for you.

Bank accounts are linked to a SIN (only usually), so again organised crime is you answer.

The "only" occasions where your SIN is checked is whenever you buy something, and then the check has to turn up something bad. Here is my beef with the system: rating 6 SIN vs. rating 1 scanner. 1/3 (scanner hits) * (2/3)^6 (SIN doesn´t) = 3% chance of failure for best fake SIN vs. worst scanner. On a fairly common test. Why does a selling corp care for my SIN enough to check the data I transmitted??? I suggest it does not unless legally required. Or have the scanner ratings go higher, but use the SIN rating as a threshold for the scanner, instead of the RAW opposed test. Yeah, I like ratings as threshold.
Kyoto Kid
...so in effect, a non matrix savvy character pretty much needs a Matrix Specialist as a contact provided there is none on the team Actually theShort One (#76 rah..spirit of...and all that drek) does have one at a loyalty rating 6 (9 BPs) from the last campaign as the GM was pretty tough on her relating to her commlink use.

I do see electronic purchases being tied to a SIN in 2070 just as they are in RL today. The account has to be registered to someone, even if it is a fake ID. Where do you think all that junk mail and spam comes from. Someone, many someones, out there have your name, your address, your phone number (if you still have a land line) & your Internet ID. They get it from Credit/Debit card purchases, magazine subscriptions, Cable/Sat television subscriptions, Internet service subscriptions. Did you fill out that warrantee card for that 60" plasma screen? They got ya. Heck, I exclusively do WiFi, am careful what sites I log onto and I still find myself deleting at upwards of three dozen or more Spam messages from my Gmail account daily.

There are companies today in the business of brokering personal information for marketing purposes. I don't see it being any different in 2070, in fact it might be an even bigger industry as (with the exception of ludddites and squatters), everyone's personal biz is somewheres on the matrix. If the marketing agencies can get this information, so can others with more dubious intent. Again this is something pretty much glossed over that would be a hard reality with a matrix system as proposed in 4th ed.

Yes the entire hacking/matrix system is a mess with nothing really defining it. This part of the game has probably seen the largest percentage of houserules being adopted to try & make some sense of how things would work. The sad part is the most important sourcebook they need to release Unwired, is still a long ways off on the schedule

Part of what I am getting at also involves comments made about how someone who is sloppy (or in the Short One's case inept due to her Dain Bramaged quality) at matrix security. For example, where does she draw the line on matrix related skills and gear? Does she need to drop several thousand on upgrading her firewall to rating 6 and/or adding IC/Agents to her commlink because she is the supposed weak point if someone hacks the team?

The bottom line for me is what they really needed to do was make wireless use three tiered. For the average Joe/Janie wageslave, the commlink would be more akin to a cellphone/Ipod combo (or the could just have kept the old Pocket Secretary and added a wireless banking feature to it which I believe it may actually have been able handle anyway). These devices would be kept as simple as possible and the service provider to would handle all the security matters for their customers. For Matrix Specialists their link should have been more on par with a souped up Notebook or handheld. Finally, for "in the field" communications there is still the Transceiver/Micro-transceiver.
Nightwalker450
QUOTE (Ryu)
The "only" occasions where your SIN is checked is whenever you buy something, and then the check has to turn up something bad. Here is my beef with the system: rating 6 SIN vs. rating 1 scanner. 1/3 (scanner hits) * (2/3)^6 (SIN doesn´t) = 3% chance of failure for best fake SIN vs. worst scanner. On a fairly common test. Why does a selling corp care for my SIN enough to check the data I transmitted??? I suggest it does not unless legally required. Or have the scanner ratings go higher, but use the SIN rating as a threshold for the scanner, instead of the RAW opposed test. Yeah, I like ratings as threshold.

I agree that the system for checking SIN's is not very good. I think using the SIN as the threshold would be more appropriate. In the case of a company or check point being in a high alert status, it could be changed to an Extended Threshold test. Those time when they stop you for a couple extra seconds while they check your identity. In general if you're buying legal items, they shouldn't even have to scan your SIN other than to debit your linked bank account. You're not likely to get a background check for your soyburger.

Unfortunatly I haven't talked my GM using rating as threshold yet. Perhaps if I write up a house rule for how to do it he could go for it...

Registered Security Personel
Extended Browse + System (SIN Rating, 1 Combat Turn) for auto scan or
Extended Browse + Hacking (SIN Rating, 1 Combat Turn) for manual scan

Hacker or Someone without the necessary Records Access
Extended Browse + Hacking (SIN Rating * 2, 1 Day) Identify a Fake SIN

Extended Spoof + Hacking (5 * Rating, 1 Week) Duplicate a SIN (Fake SIN)
Each roll Opposed by Rating * 1.5 (roundup) roll, Net Hits towards creation

How do you identify a real ID? You really can't, you just decide how much time is it worth to you. I threw the Duplicate SIN on there, because if players can trace the information, then they can create an ID as well. This helps to explain why they are so expensive as well. Creating a Rating 1 SIN is fairly easy and safe, continuing to make it a rating 2, more difficult etc.

How would Duplicating work (Spoof 6, Hacking 6 no VR bonus)
You have to have a lower rating before you can work towards the next
Rating 1: Threshold 5
12 vs 2.. Net Hits count towards threshold
Rating 2: Threshold 15 (Must have Rating 1 already)
12 vs 3.. Net Hits count towards threshold
...
Rating 6: Threshold 30 (Must have Rating 5 already)
12 vs 9.. Net Hits count towards threshold

Tie on Hits = No Progress
System wins by 1 or more = Fake SIN rating goes down 1
System wins by 3 or more = Fake SIN invalid
System wins by 5 or more = Authorities alerted

Just some ideas thrown together..
Ryu
I get that my SIN is transmitted because it is possible once you check identity to verify payment. But that should not result in a check of my background. Every SIN I buy should work for cursory examination, as I pay for the right pictures to be inserted. A Disguise test may be called for, but the SIN itself should hold water, as Data Requests should go to one database, as cross-checking has no benefit if the bill in question is paid.
Kyoto Kid
...I'm not saying that when you buy a pack of smokes and a 40 of Spud Lite at the corner Stuffer Shack a red flag goes up at the local Star precinct. That is only a possibility if you have a criminal SIN. However if someone in the department had suspicions about the character for whatever reason, they could very well use this data to trace your movements, maybe see where you frequent the most and deduct where you might be the most vulnerable.

However this is not the main reason I dislike the wireless matrix and commlinks. What bothers me is the "you don't have it turned on, you must be a menace to society" mentality. Again, it is a metahuman transponder, which sends out a beacon saying "I'm here". You're downtown, you turn it off just for a little peace & quiet, and there's a beat cop or Star drone in your face telling you to turn it back on. Beforehand, you could pretty much blend into the surrounding crowd, and as long as you didn't act suspiciously, nobody was the wiser that they may be standing next to the perfect killing machine. This to me is was the beauty of Shadowrun.

This is what I am referring to when I say the whole wireless scene "takes the shadows out of Shadowrun." It's no longer about simply blending into the woodwork while in plain sight.
Karaden
I'll throw my 2 nuyen.gif in here.

First off, Kyoto, you seem to be drasticly underestimating how willing places are to give out their data. Sure, Lone Star could -in theory- track your every movement by using the large number of cameras and logs of transactions and such, but there are a -ton- of reasons they dont.

First off, this is the reason you have more then one SIN, sure, they can find out where Jimmy the Kid hangs out, but they don't know that Jimmy the Kid is also Bob the Bruiser, Harold the Hippy, Chris the Coolguy, and a half dozen other people. So sure, they can find out where 1/10th of you spends alot of time, but that won't do them much good.

Then if they want to see what Jimmy the Kid buys all the time (Which once again is going to be about 1/10th of what you buy all the time) then they'll have to first figure out the places he frequents, then they'll have to requsition sales data from those places (which most people arn't willing to give up without a fuss) which will take a few days.

Then what? They know Jimmy the Kid's favorite brand of chips, wow, they are sooo close to catching him now.

And tracking everything with cameras? Yeah, good luck getting dozens of stores, appartments, and corportations to just hand over their security feeds. If it was a national crisis it might happen... in about a year.

Tracking the person with their Commlink? They have to know who belongs to what commlink first, they can't just go "Oh, yeah, let me pull up the exact location of Jimmy the Kid." They first have to find him, then log his commlink ID (which he can change every couple hours or more without much trouble), and then (after they've found him) they can keep track of him, so long as that commlink is turned on. Nothing stops him switching to a different commlink that now says he is Bob the Bruiser, or heck, just changing the ID and related SIN on his current ID.

And as for keeping your commlink on in public areas? I don't really see so much of a problem with this. You said part of the appeal was 'blending in in plain sight.' well, the commlink is just another form of plain sight. You just have it on, set it to not throw stuff up on your sight link unless it is from someone you know, and you can ignore the spam. They scan it and ID you in almost exactly the same way they would look over your face. They arn't going to check your SIN extensivly, they're just going to see if it is criminal or not, and if it isn't they go on. If your face isn't that of a registered criminal they shrug and move on.

You act like the commlink is an omnipresent tracking device that everyone and their brother can use to instantly and effortlessly track anyone in the world. Tracking someone with it is -hard-. And may even require hacking into it (don't quite remember). You act like having your commlink on in an area is holding up a sign that says "I am a runner and am going to shoot people." but it isn't any different then standing in a crowd -not- wearing a ski mask.

Whew, huge rant, sorry Kyoto, don't hate me.

On to the SIN itself and how it deals with scanners, I like that. The way SINs are now it is far far too easy for a scanner to pick out a false SIN (especially when SINs only go to 6 and scanners go to 10) Strait threshhold seems a little high however. Perhaps threshold is = to half of rating (round up) and it is still an opposed test, so the scanner needs to get net hits vs the rating equal to half the rating.

This would make rating 6 SINs a very good investment, requireing top notch scanners to pick out and lower SINs at least have decent ability to not be detected.
kzt
Umm, no.

Storage is essentially free. Databases are hence unlimited in size. Computers are insanely powerful, able to do work in seconds that takes millions of years for current computers. Gridlink is everywhere that controlled traffic is. Gridlink is essentially controlled by the cops. Gridlink wireless picks up everyone on the street and can track them. Gridlink cameras cover all the intersections and crosswalks.

In fact gridlink can track you within a meter or two on public streets. They can track your travels back for months. They can see when a SIN first appears in a town. They can notice that a SIN disappears from the network and another one reappears in about the same spot. They can notice that this SIN isn't behaving like 99.5% of SINs. They can match your face with the SIN you are transmitting and match it with the one in the databanks. They will notice when it matches another SIN and when the same face matches multiple SINs. They can spot all the SINs located with you and direct the cops right to you as you blithely stroll down the sidewalk confident in your anonymity. And it takes them NO effort to do this.
Karaden
That is obviously a difference in how you play the game then. If Lone Star is as effective as you've just mentioned then it is impossable to so much as walk down a street without instantly being busted.

The very fact that fake SINs exist prove that this isn't the case. If Lone Star could keep -perfect- track of -every single- SIN in the city, know absolutely everything it does, know where it is 24/7, then Shadowrun is impossable. Fake SINs would be impossable to maintain and impossable to get: "Hey, bob here hasn't bought any food in 5 days and nothing shows that he has much at home, must be a fake, lets go get him." "Hey, who is this guy that we have no record of existing before about a week ago?".

I mean if you run it like you just described it is -utterly impossable- to do -anything- remotely illegal in anywhere even remotely watched. They would have video feed of every movement you made. So if you really want to run it like that... well you arn't playing Shadowrun, your playing Paranoia.

Besides the fact that the existance of shadowrunners is instant disproof of what you said being correct, here are a few other things to consider:

Cameras cost money, LoneStar is a corperation, corperations like to make money and don't like to spend it. Thus LoneStar and noone else is going to pay to have millions of cameras plastered everywhere so they can see every last square inch of everything. Even high security corperations only have limited camera coverage.

Lets say that LoneStar does have the 500 billion cameras in Seattle that you seem to think they do. That would require a good chunk of the earth's population to monitor all of them. Part of the problem with having infinite data storage is that you have -a ton- of data to sift through. Sure, I bet that somewhere you show up on some camera that they have access to, but that would require searching through millions of camera feeds. You can assume that AI is helping out here, but it can only do so much, and you still need a person to actually sit down and look through a good portion of that feed. So sure, about 1 million man hours later you can find where someone was, but by then you've long since stopped caring.

The same thing goes with SIN tracking. Ok, maybe they can track you down with your commlink, but they have about 2 million+ people to keep track of, and picking out the -one- that they actually care about is going to be hard.

Your definetly -way- overestimating what security can do. Think about it for a few seconds, try planning something illigal in the sort of area you describe, and you will find it 100% impossable, since they will know who you are, where you are, what you are doing, what you have done, and likely have a good idea what you are going to do, can capture incriminating evidince with ease, know exactly where you live, and dozens of other things.

The fact that the game Shadowrun exists means that the cops are NOT that good! It is as simple as that.
kzt
I'm assuming that they have the same traffic cameras I see on every traffic light in town. Not to mention things like red light cameras. I'm not even talking about the London, DC, or Chicago level of surveillance, just the traffic cameras. And there will be London level of surveillance cameras.

And you don't have to have ANYONE watching them. You have computers that have unimaginable processing power, as shown by the fact that they can break cryptographic systems that would take millions of years to break with current computers; and break them in seconds. So they do image analysis in real time of thousands of cameras. Hell, ONE commlink could do this for thousands of cameras, and there is that much processing power embedded in each camera. Each camera has the same vast bandwidth as a commlink, which allows it to search through the files to find out who everyone in the picture is, and then the massively distributed system can track them as they move out of the field of view as the system can track the commlink. When they see or notice something interesting they get someone's attention.

If you assume a real surveillance network like London, DC or the full planned Chicago one (where you get filmed hundred or thousands of times a day) then it's even easier. But the commlink is what makes it trivial to keep track of you, and to notice when you do something odd electronically.

So, yes, the idea that you have shadowrunners in this world is hard to handle, isn't it? That's the point of KK's rant....
Ryu
GridGuide is only an issue if they are already tracking you. But they don´t know you are a runner. Fake SINs are a collection of fake transaction data. They are not continuously checked. And have any surveilance system choke on the mass of the data it creates. GridGuide will tell anyone that their servers setup is expensive enough without handling more than the number of vehicles and that billing data is not stored longer than the customer demands.

I prefer a world where only law enforcement itself and personell management cares about SINs, the latter quite willing to give out new ones if the corp in question is extraterretorial. Suddenly most of the data you leave can´t be traced to you.

On SIN checks: Karaden, your idea might make it work. Rating=threshold has rating 6 SINs close to watertight against level 10 scanners (around 2% detection chance, didn´t calculate it exactly). So half rating=threshold for the scanner, use net hits in an opposed test feels about right. I´d like to introduce SIN qualities, like those the Sprawl Survival Guide had.
Kyoto Kid
...I had a longer response but decided this is only becoming point > counterpoint escalation. I can see where people are coming from but what the whole mess really comes down to is how the GM handles it.

Multiple SINs are a good idea, but for many characters just not affordable without sacrificing resources/BPs from other aspects.

My big contention is with non matrix characters having to now be matrix based characters, though granted not to the degree of a Rigger/Matrix Specialist. Again the BPs and resources have to come from somewheres, and usually that is the core essence (not the attribute) of the character. In the past Sammys, Adepts, Mages and even Riggers never needed to worry about the matrix, that again was the sole concern of the Decker. The game could still have been kept pretty much that way as I suggested while still retaining the newer "colour".

Now you have to be overly concerned that your commlink, car, doss, guns, 'ware, and in some people's view, even your brain can be hacked. The Momhammer thread made me look into just how intrusive the matrix has become. It has made me reassess just what I feel the most powerful archetype is and I can say I'm less wary of a mage than a Matrix Specialist now.
kzt
QUOTE (Ryu)
GridGuide is only an issue if they are already tracking you. But they don´t know you are a runner. Fake SINs are a collection of fake transaction data. They are not continuously checked. And have any surveilance system choke on the mass of the data it creates. GridGuide will tell anyone that their servers setup is expensive enough without handling more than the number of vehicles and that billing data is not stored longer than the customer demands.

People are tracked, in real time, all the time today. For example, today your cell phone provider knows where you are any time you have your call phone on. In general they know where where you are within a mile or so, because of how the cell towers work. They store this data continually and it lives in a giant database that is subpoenable. If they put some minimal effort they can locate you much more precisely, which the do on 911 calls. Within about 50-150 feet without a GPS signal, within 10 feet with a GPS signal.

GridGuide needs to track transmitters to about a foot so it can guide traffic and determine if a vehicle is behaving correctly. There isn't any effective difference between a vehicle transponder and a commlink that is tranmitting, and it's useful for GridGuide to know that someone has entered the roadway so they can avoid squashing them and delaying traffic. So GridGuide tracks everything around a road. This is in addition to how your communication provider tracks you, which we'll ignore for now.

There is no compelling reason not to track you all the time. This is a much more intrusive society without privacy laws. And Ares etc doesn't have to obey privacy laws if they existed. There are lots of people who would like to know where you are. For example, advertisers. DoubleClick and Google today zealously collect your surfing history so they can market ads to you. Google's database has EVERY search you have ever made. If you use their dashboard thing they have your entire web history eternally living in their servers. Why wouldn't they want to know where you are all the time, just so they can send you a coupon for the Thai restaurant two blocks ahead, because they know you like Thai food, it's dinner time and you haven't eaten and your travel history shows you have never stopped there before?

GridGuide is expensive to run and has data lots of people want to pay for. Commercializing the data collection capability of GridGuide is the logical solution. Data storage is free, computer power is free, bandwidth is free. So why not store where everyone is every 5 seconds?
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (kzt)
So why not store where everyone is every 5 seconds?

Because it would break the game.
Therefore, in the interest of fun, we have to make reasonably-plausible, pseudo-scientific, handwavey explanations for why the game world doesn't break.

I agree that the logical conclusion of the technology is that everyone is trackable all the time. But I do not say, "Therefore, SR is unplayable." I say, "hmm, if that were the case, then SR would be unplayable, therefore it is wrong" and I start looking for a way to explain away the conflict.
Karaden
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
QUOTE (kzt @ Dec 21 2007, 12:55 PM)
So why not store where everyone is every 5 seconds?

Because it would break the game.
Therefore, in the interest of fun, we have to make reasonably-plausible, pseudo-scientific, handwavey explanations for why the game world doesn't break.

I agree that the logical conclusion of the technology is that everyone is trackable all the time. But I do not say, "Therefore, SR is unplayable." I say, "hmm, if that were the case, then SR would be unplayable, therefore it is wrong" and I start looking for a way to explain away the conflict.

Well put.

Yes, common sense tells us that what kzt says -should- be true. If computers are as powerful, AI as good, and storage as unlimited as it is presented as, then yes, LoneStar definetly -should- be able to track every single person, where they are, what they are doing, what they had for breakfast, that they picked their nose a minute ago and are now shaking someone's hand, etc.

But if this where the case SR couldn't be played. LoneStar would show up and arrest you before you even get close to your target, because they would know that your planning on doing something bad, or if not they would be able to track you down with 100% accuracy after the event. If this was the case -crime could not exist- because all cases would be solved within seconds of happening. Thus SR could not exist, thus there is apperently -some- reason that what you say isn't true.

Now, I'm not from the SR world's 2071, so I don't know -what- this reason is, but I can garentee you that there is one. I can offer suggestions that computers arn't as powerful as you think, that AI arn't as smart as you think, that just because data -can- be stored, doesn't mean that it -is-. Take into account that the very best -company based servers- can't handle running more then 5 programs at once without slowing down seems to indicate that computers arn't all that powerful. The fact that the best system defences and most advanced IC can be defeated by a hacker, sometimes fairly easily, indicates that the programs and AI isn't all that good.

But really I suppose the end point is that you can go with everything kzt says and make the game unplayable, or you can assume that -somehow- LoneStar is as good as they are portraied in the book, and get on with life as per usual.
Stahlseele
there's a Reason why it does not happen like that . . 'cause to the system YOU DON'T EXIST without a SIN . . so the System does not get you O.o
Whipstitch
Yeah, it's vital to the world of Shadowrun that no group is truly infallible. When in doubt, I portray corporate and government officials as uncooperative assholes. It's not so much that everyone is evil, mind you, it's just that the real power players in the Sixth World have no real interest shaking up the status quo too much; many of them have nowhere else to go but down while the middle tier guys are busy trying to guard their own secrets and keep their heads down; only the guys on the bottom really want to rock the boat. People are likely already terribly uncomfortable with how ubiquitous surveillance and Big Brother already is in the 2070s and taking it further would be a big risk, plus it would probably require friendlier and more open relations between groups like Knight Errant and Lonestar, which frankly, just isn't going to happen.
cndblank
And likely the paperhangers have services that provide false data trails for the Fake Sins so that they stay current.

Maybe even stand ins that make a few purchases using the ID leaving a data trail.
Have someone go in to an Auto bar and order the usual drinks, Go back out side change hair color and add glasses, come back in using the next Fake Sin's he is maintaining.

The really expensive ones use a mage with a Physical Mask spell to leave some nice security vids of your mug at a nice mall or a live performance some where.


Hell... Hackers likely have agents that can do all the Matrix activity needed for them. You just decide how much you want to spend to keep the Fake Sin current and it does the work for you using a predetermined profile.

Bar tab (2 Dark Beer) at Bennigan's bar and grill Friday night. Order for the Tri-vid Seattle Sea Hawks game Saturday afternoon with Pizza and Beer Delivery. Saturday night Porn download at 2317 (Santa's Elves Know Who's Naughty)). Soy Refill with extra Garlic and Butter Flavor refills ordered. Boring Phone call to Mother on Sunday afternoon...
Ryu
I´m aware that I can be traced most of the time if someone knows my cell phone number. Very precisely, very fast. And, if some pending legislation in Germany comes to pass, several months after the fact if I happend to actually use the phone. Did I mention that all SR GMs regulary searching for maps and background on weapons tech might get the chance to convert a Police officer to the hobby? But I digress.

If you allow all the data that is created in SR to be connected, SR is dead. If nearly the complete population is traced because they do not care (the new LA matrix fad, no change of phone contracts etc), the Kons do not need to check the SIN to collect marketing data. And if they don´t do that, all you need to do to throw off the trace is to buy a new cell phone and steal a new car. And, the only thing new here, aquire a new matrix account.

It is not an argument / counter argument thing IMO because both "SR won´t work" and "SR works because its tech is not used to its potential" are legitimate from a technological POV. The matter that needs discussion is the application of tech, and we are lacking data.

"Unwired" may make or break the game. Current SIN rules imply that all ventures into the official world are supposed to be short, if the likelihood of detection is intentional.
Catharz Godfoot
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
My big contention is with non matrix characters having to now be matrix based characters, though granted not to the degree of a Rigger/Matrix Specialist. Again the BPs and resources have to come from somewheres, and usually that is the core essence (not the attribute) of the character. In the past Sammys, Adepts, Mages and even Riggers never needed to worry about the matrix, that again was the sole concern of the Decker. The game could still have been kept pretty much that way as I suggested while still retaining the newer "colour".

Yeah, it's a shame that flavor-wise you always need to cover your matrix ass. A lazy tracking system that figures, 'Hey, everybody needs to use a comlink. Why bother using cameras when we can just track those?' might work.
Then you have the choice of going hacker or lotech when you need passive stealth.
Ddays
QUOTE (Ryu)
I´m aware that I can be traced most of the time if someone knows my cell phone number. Very precisely, very fast. And, if some pending legislation in Germany comes to pass, several months after the fact if I happend to actually use the phone. Did I mention that all SR GMs regulary searching for maps and background on weapons tech might get the chance to convert a Police officer to the hobby? But I digress.

If you allow all the data that is created in SR to be connected, SR is dead. If nearly the complete population is traced because they do not care (the new LA matrix fad, no change of phone contracts etc), the Kons do not need to check the SIN to collect marketing data. And if they don´t do that, all you need to do to throw off the trace is to buy a new cell phone and steal a new car. And, the only thing new here, aquire a new matrix account.

It is not an argument / counter argument thing IMO because both "SR won´t work" and "SR works because its tech is not used to its potential" are legitimate from a technological POV. The matter that needs discussion is the application of tech, and we are lacking data.

"Unwired" may make or break the game. Current SIN rules imply that all ventures into the official world are supposed to be short, if the likelihood of detection is intentional.

I agree with kzt on the fact that data of that sort is stored somewhere. But I disagree that computers will ever be able to fetch it on hand easily.

But Ddays, you say, there are super advanced computers that can break encryption alogrithms easily! That alone doesn't say anything, just that in the world of math, new theories have generated a relatively simple inverse for most known encryption schemes. Perhaps by the virtue of parallel processing, brute force methods generally work pretty well on mathematical computations.

But here's a counterclaim:

We are in the process of mapping out games. Some of the classics have already "been solved" meaning every avaliable move and strategem has been analyzed and the perfect game has been played. One example that everybody has done is tic-tac-toe, but games more complex like connect 4 and checkers has already been done. Chess is on its way, and chess playing programs specifically uses the built game tree to find the optimum strategy. If Shadowrun computers are complex enough to track and search millions of traffic data patterns and track any given individual out of those, it can surely solve the chess game tree.

But even Shadowrun tech has not been able to do so, and I know. Why? Because by fluff, President Dunzelkhan and Damien Knight still play the game competitively. So there is a clear limit to what even SR technology can do.
kzt
Computer chess systems now are better than all but a handful of top grandmasters. You can buy commercial software that is master class. Of course computers are better than any human player by 2070. No, just because they agree to not use computers to cheat doesn't mean that computers couldn't kick their asses.


And the part of fluff that makes the whole fake ID crap useless if you think about about it for 5 seconds is the idea that your commlink MUST broadcast your SIN. If you assume that this isn't the case it gets a lot harder to make the correlations needed to absolutely track soemone. But since they are REQUIRED to transmit a world readable unique personal identifier under threat of being arrested immediately, it all comes tumbling to the ground.

Of course, since there isn't any good reason in the fluff why you can't just copy someone else's SIN (since encryption doesn't work, etc), there is always the option to just steal them. You don't buy fake IDs, you just casually steal them as needed.
Ddays
How good a computer player is is completely dependent on how many moves down the search tree a computer looks. Since we don't know the soluton to Chess, it may be just the fact that white always wins in a perfect game. The fact that two of the smartest entities in the world are using chess as a challenge of wits (beyond life that is) says to me that the game still isn't completely deterministic. Or else they would just be playing something else.

Second, it's probably a bad idea to randomly steal and sin and possibly a good deal harder than just changing what number your commlink is spewing out. Social security numbers and driver license numbers are supposed to be unique, and look how many of those get faked or stolen yearly.

I have no idea how anybody could be enforcing SIN allocation so perfectly that everybody gets exactly one. Hashing the look up tables for accuracy would probably take years even with SR level computing power by which time the number of new growths would have made it completely inaccurate. I have doubt the census in 2070 is better, but I laugh at the idea that it's accurate down to the person. SINs are no doubt the same level of good enough when applied to a complex sample space that its acceptable to use, but the mere existence of SINless should be enough proof that it isn't perfect.
kzt
Lots of people play chess when very few of them can beat a desktop PC with a $50 program. People who have a real life and job and don't have the focus of their life playing chess with grandmaster level opponents and analyzing games don't get to be top grandmasters outside of books written by the clueless. And only top grandmasters can even draw games with modern top rated chess playing computer systems.


SR has in the fluff that everyone is totally dependent on computer networks and are so confident in their availability that major corporations never bother to make off-line backups and hence get totally nuked when all the computers in the world get erased every few years. So I have no issues with assuming that they just have a central server that issues SINs sequentially. No hash needed. Just database transactions.

The reason there are people without SINs is that they avoid interacting with the governments that issue SINs. You are essentially arguing that the fact that there are people in the US without passports is absolute proof that the passport issuing system is hopelessly broken, as if there are no other possible causes.
Ddays
Um, ok, ordinary people still play. But my point was about Dunzelkhan and Damian Knight playing each other for challenge, and I guess I have issues about the fact that they would play a game where all possible moves have already been mapped. Just as I don't see an evil genius challenging James Bond to a game of tic-tac-toe or connect 4. I still play connect 4 and checkers even if they are solved its true, but I guess a game being solved sort of ruins the mystique of it as a grand master level game. That whole thing is just a digression, anyway, moving on.

Why would companies trust their data to networks that are far from stable? My whole attempt at rationalizing the matrix revolves around this point. If there existed an infinite throughput device and architecture which allowed perfect copying of in use databases coupled with infinite offline storage space, there would be no reason not to backup all assets. But some facet of matrix protocol and sheer volume of data transfer must mean that at some level it is difficult to store and process the data itself. Hence the problems that come with the crash and data recovery. Probably from geographically diffuse storage devices that each contain a fragment of the whole.

As I understand it, it is your argument that SR technology does have the power to process and crosslink incredibly vast amounts of data so that the if all data was ever connected, the SR world would fail catastrophically as runners gets hauled off by the bucketloads.

I am stating that the data may be all connected and stored with the processing power to do all this and still not be able to cross reference and check every piece of info. It would be entirely impractical to monitor everybody every 5 seconds and feed it to a human authority for proper response. The SR universe still does not have an independent AI crosschecking every feed. Even dragons can't multitask that well. As far as Lonestar can do, they can look up the history of where you've been pretty damn well once they finally catch you, and they in general do do that.

To do the google analogy, yes, Google does have a record of where "you" have been. However, while the data may generally look like "your" activity, if somebody else logs into your comp and checks some sites, their data is logged in as "your" data. Now multiply it exponentially, with thousands of transactions getting cross linked because the SIN system ain't perfect. Billions of scans and some freak wireless interference combined with higher ups and runners actively masquerading as you and working transactions. Even the government probably issues black-ops SINs for some operations where runners can't be expected to shut their mouths. All that, and even if your data is logged in some massive database, nobody can ever be sure its you.

By your argument, yes a system with infinite storage and infinite computational capacity would be broken. But by the fluff of the SR universe, this has not and has never been the case.
kzt
Assume people don't go around with a giant electronic sign that says "my Social Security Number SIN is 'blah'" and the tracking problem largely goes away, as do a few others.

As I said early on in the thread, the people writing this stuff just don't seem to think about second order effects. Encryption not working combined with everyone broadcasting their SIN has pretty obvious implications. The seemingly obvious idea that someone might steal the SINs that people are required to broadcast without any security doesn't seem to have ever crossed their minds.
Ddays
Well, assuming that the SIN isn't just a number and has to be actively cross-referenced thanks to the data transfer possible in 2070 works too.

And encryption is kinda wonky by the default rules, it seems more designed for on the fly transmissions than hard copies. But then again, if somebody gets ahold of your hardcopy, you're expected to get your data stolen given time.

If copy protection is hardcore enough to let you only make one copy before you have to crack it again, I'm sure encryption isn't as weak in SR as the rules make it seem.
kzt
If you can get the information and answers to determine that the SIN of someone you pass on the street looks genuine, you now know what to tell the person who asks about the stolen SIN you are using so they think it's genuine too. This kind of makes the whole idea of broadcasting your ID seem insane, doesn't it?

Encryption is just about the perfect example of how SR get screwed up by people writing rules who just don't have the foggiest idea about what the actual implication of the rule they blithely wrote. Then the rules seem to be "play tested" with 3 of their closest friends, who all share the exact same biases and blind spots, who pronounce them perfect.
Ddays
The same could said about counterfeiting IDs and cash as well, but the thing to look for may not always be easy to replicate. There is a thriving underground society of SIN makers, but it's hardly something you just copy wily nily.

And I do agree with you about encryption, the SR4 matrix rules just seemed to be written while all the writers were on some cocktail blender drive.
Ryu
What I need to aquire if SINs are constantly broadcast is a SIN scanner. And every transaction uses one, so it can´t be hard.

I now have access to all data that makes up the SIN.

--

Plus, how does whoever verify I am the legal owner of the SIN? Online transactions can´t check me physically. Appearance can be faked, knowledge saved on my Cyber-Comlink. One more reason to be of average height, average weight, no special characteristics. This is the only RAW way to get SINs that get a full team through a full-on SIN check.

--

Encryption needs help. Anyone can beat an extended test. It may not be used just because one wants variable time. Variable time is achieved better by subsequent attempts at something using less time than the first attempt.
Ddays
Well the way my encryption works for heavy duty stuff is this:

You roll encryption + logic, average is 3+3, roll 3 times for skill, that's an average of 6 dice.

Encryption rating is set as the threshold for an opposed test against decryption.

So if you have average decryption of 6 dice, you'll have a hard time getting net 6 hits versus another set of 6 dice.
Ryu
I think you meant to say you roll decryption+logic?


I´m contemplating exactly the same system, with added threshold modifiers depending on the kind of password. Those mods could be removed by spying out parts of the password.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012