Full Version: Runner Gear- Illegal and otherwise
I have recently re-acquired my collection of Marvel Comics short-lived series, "Punisher Armory." The series of 10 mags details the Punisher's tools and strategies for putting them to use(read- "wreaking havoc & mayhem"). I found the series VERY useful when I was running SR2 on a weekly basis back in 1992. A few of my favorites are the Folding Ares Submachine Gun and the shotgun shells loaded with piano wire(read- "monowire travelling through the air at high velocity"). All items listed in the books are, as far as I've been able to tell, real-life items. I snagged my copies off of AtomicAvenue.com.
For weird gear I've always enjoyed trips to Home Depot and EMS. All that home construction tools and outdoors campuing/survival/climibng gear.
Seriously, look at some of the small, battery powered tools. no the ones with the big ol' honking grips for battery pack that are as big as a gun but smaller stuff you charge on a wall socket. Already pretty dare powerful imagine they could be even better in 60 years.
Seriously, look at some of the small, battery powered tools. no the ones with the big ol' honking grips for battery pack that are as big as a gun but smaller stuff you charge on a wall socket. Already pretty dare powerful imagine they could be even better in 60 years.
Fox,
What's EMS ?
What's EMS ?
My guess would be Eastern Mountain Sports.
Now, I'm not a guns expert, or a physics major, but I'm decent enough at physics that I can safely say I really really doubt that stuffing wire of any kind into a shotgun shell is going to do anything for you except hit your target with a bit of wadded up wire, if it even manages that.
| QUOTE (Black Mamba) |
| I have recently re-acquired my collection of Marvel Comics short-lived series, "Punisher Armory." The series of 10 mags details the Punisher's tools and strategies for putting them to use(read- "wreaking havoc & mayhem"). I found the series VERY useful when I was running SR2 on a weekly basis back in 1992. |
When I saw this topic, I thought I would post about the Punisher Armory. Alas, it was about the Armory.
I kept thinking about digging out my copies (Punisher is one comic title that I have collected over the years and try to keep in great shape.) Now I have the entire armory series converted to cbr (comic book reader) files for easy access.
I have only revisited the first couple of volumes, but the
| QUOTE (Karaden) |
| Now, I'm not a guns expert, or a physics major, but I'm decent enough at physics that I can safely say I really really doubt that stuffing wire of any kind into a shotgun shell is going to do anything for you except hit your target with a bit of wadded up wire, if it even manages that. |
Probably about like firing chain from a cannon, but I keep reading how that was done in the past. If the wire is flexible enough, so that it doesn't wind up kinking, I think it would unspool as it flies. This sounds like a job for Mythbusters!
Mythbusters did fire chain from a cannon. The range they tested at wasn't great, but the chain pretty much stayed balled up and behave much like a 25 lump of metal would when hitting their dead pig dressed in a pirate costume. Most of what I've read about firing chain from a cannon implies that there is a weight or something on one end so it twirls around to strike as much surface area as possible, to try to take out masts and sails.
Wire, on the other hand, I doubt would do very much. It's too bulky to get much mass in the same volume as a bullet. If it did unwind and spread out, unless you were point blank, I'd imagine that it would lose velocity too fast to be usefull.
Some sort of double-barreled system with weights attached to wires would probably be more effective, like those netguns, but with monowire.
edited for clarity
Wire, on the other hand, I doubt would do very much. It's too bulky to get much mass in the same volume as a bullet. If it did unwind and spread out, unless you were point blank, I'd imagine that it would lose velocity too fast to be usefull.
Some sort of double-barreled system with weights attached to wires would probably be more effective, like those netguns, but with monowire.
edited for clarity
| QUOTE |
| like those netguns, but with monowire. |
been there, done that, GM was NOT happy . . and i wasn't either, because monowire is damn expansive <.< . .
...bolo rounds re definitely for real. As a matter of fact many states have banned them along with what are known as Dragon's Breath rounds. which create a fireball effect.
Using chain shot is pretty straightforward. It's a pair of cannon balls attached to each other by a chain. The balls are pretty important.
In the case of a shotgun, the wire would have to be flexible enough that it would bend when even a small amount of weight is applied. I was under the impression that piano wire, being a wire, would not meet that criteria, so it would basically be a ball with two bits of lead on each end (presumably we're talking about a 12 or 10 gauge, with the maximum amount of lead on either end of the wire as you can suitably fit in). I don't know how flexible monowire is, nor do I know how effective actual bolo rounds are. I can say that at anything less than Medium range, there would likely be no effective benefit from them. At long range, I can't see them adding a lot you wouldn't already be suffering by virtue of getting hit by a teacup full of lead moving faster than the speed of sound. Then again, Shadowrun monowire is the stuff of magic that can actually cut air molecules in half.
In the case of a shotgun, the wire would have to be flexible enough that it would bend when even a small amount of weight is applied. I was under the impression that piano wire, being a wire, would not meet that criteria, so it would basically be a ball with two bits of lead on each end (presumably we're talking about a 12 or 10 gauge, with the maximum amount of lead on either end of the wire as you can suitably fit in). I don't know how flexible monowire is, nor do I know how effective actual bolo rounds are. I can say that at anything less than Medium range, there would likely be no effective benefit from them. At long range, I can't see them adding a lot you wouldn't already be suffering by virtue of getting hit by a teacup full of lead moving faster than the speed of sound. Then again, Shadowrun monowire is the stuff of magic that can actually cut air molecules in half.
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) |
| ...bolo rounds re definitely for real. As a matter of fact many states have banned them along with what are known as Dragon's Breath rounds. which create a fireball effect. |
What states have they been banned in? Link to anything about them?
Not that having laws banning something means that it is actually real. There are some laws on the books banning things that don't exist/can't happen because stupid politisions didn't actually think to look at anything before voting. No examples off hand though.
Anyway, I find it highly difficult to believe, based on my knowladge of physics, that an explosion (a force) would hit the two balls (both placed inside the shell casing/cannon tube) in such a way that they somehow start a spinning motion (circular motion of both balls around the center of the wire/chain) because it would require the explosion to excert a large amount of torque on just one of the balls (which is unlikely because the balls are going to be near one another) and either no torque or a torque in the oppoiste direction (negitive torque) on the other one, as well as send them in opposite horisontal or vertical directions so that the wire between them can be taunt (which would be required for the balls to rotate around the center of the wire).
Now, even if all of these things somehow manage to happen, I'd also like to point out that the round would be absurdly inaccurate. It would go either widly up or down, and either widly left or right. This is due to both the force (as previously mentioned) required for the two weights to seperate, which would almost be garenteed to be uneven, and thus send it off in on direction when the wire first becaumes taunt, and due to the dirctional force caused by a spinning object, which would admitidly be less, but we are talking about a very small amount of mass in the case of the wire. Oh, and if you don't believe me about the directional force of a spinning object, try this: take a bike wheel off the bike, hold it with a bar through the center and get it spinning reall good, with the left hand holding it on top. Now try moving the entire wheel so your left hand is on the bottom now, you'll get a big kick from the wheel.
Now, all these little physicis things don't really mean alot in comics/movies/SR so you can still have the stuff if you want, but unless there is some property of these things that I don't know about, or I'm really wrong in some part of my knowladge, then it isn't something that is really going to work.
I would imagine that by making the balls have different aerodynamic shapes you could cause the wire to go taut with very little difficulty. The unstable drag would probably start the spinning. Depending on shape and load, you might even be able to cause it to spin in a consistant manner, which would allow you to correct for the spinning, making it fairly accurate, with practice.
Actually, it's very easy to make them start rotating—just give them different aerodynamic characteristics. It'd probably be hell to make them at all accurate like that, but as long as they didn't travel perfectly along the same path, they should start spinning pretty well.
~J
~J
Chain shot, likewise 'bar shot' two halves of a cannon ball linked by an iron rod, were used in the age of sail, they were used to cut rigging, the lines used to manipulate the spars and turn the ship, no rigging, no steering. This is a bad thing in a fight.
The Myth busters episode showed the chain as a wide angle weapon than cut a pig carcass nearly in half.
The Myth busters episode showed the chain as a wide angle weapon than cut a pig carcass nearly in half.
| QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 29 2007, 04:51 PM) |
| My guess would be Eastern Mountain Sports. |
and the man wins a cupie doll! Sorry, sometimes I take it for granted that we don't all shop at the same places..
I'd love to see the aerodynamic properties that would cause them to spin like that.*edit* especially given the limited technology of those times *edit* Maybe someone could find a youtube video or some sort of proof that anything like that could actually happen, untill then I can't really invision it working.
As for bar shot, it has fairly similar problems of getting the inital rotation, but does at least seem slightly more plausable then doing it with wire/chain since you don't have to worry about them going taunt in the first place.
Hmm, never seen that episode of mythbusters. They fired a chain shot at a pig and cut it in half?
As for bar shot, it has fairly similar problems of getting the inital rotation, but does at least seem slightly more plausable then doing it with wire/chain since you don't have to worry about them going taunt in the first place.
Hmm, never seen that episode of mythbusters. They fired a chain shot at a pig and cut it in half?
| QUOTE (Karaden) |
| I'd love to see the aerodynamic properties that would cause them to spin like that.*edit* especially given the limited technology of those times *edit* Maybe someone could find a youtube video or some sort of proof that anything like that could actually happen, untill then I can't really invision it working. |
Um, make them so that one has more drag than the other? If that isn't enough, shape them slightly so that they'll tend to pull in one direction—unless the direction ends up being exactly the same, the chain should pull taut and probably start rotating.
~J
| QUOTE (Karaden) |
| I'd love to see the aerodynamic properties that would cause them to spin like that.*edit* especially given the limited technology of those times *edit* Maybe someone could find a youtube video or some sort of proof that anything like that could actually happen, untill then I can't really invision it working. As for bar shot, it has fairly similar problems of getting the inital rotation, but does at least seem slightly more plausable then doing it with wire/chain since you don't have to worry about them going taunt in the first place. Hmm, never seen that episode of mythbusters. They fired a chain shot at a pig and cut it in half? |
aren't bolo-rounds and Dragons Breath Rounds in SR allready?
Yes, though Shadowrun calls them bola rounds, presumably to avoid creating the impression that the rounds contain artificially intelligent tanks.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Karaden @ Dec 29 2007, 10:16 PM) |
| Hmm, never seen that episode of mythbusters. They fired a chain shot at a pig and cut it in half? |
they were doing 'pirate myths' and loading all sorts of odds and sods into a muzzle loader cannon. the tried a caoonon ball at first as the proof, the fired glass, flat wear, grape shot, scrap metal, metal spikes and lastly chain. the chain was the most spectacular. The cut looked like a freaking butcher was cleaning the pig.
Shame that I've just missed it being avalable on their Online TV thing, as I'm very curious as to how it worked. Of course, it still leaves the question as to if it is actually any more effective then a plain old cannonball (when it comes to injuring people)
I bet it would be—because it would create a larger volume of damage, and if you're hit by something like that with the medical technology of the day you're probably dead anyway. That said, my understanding is that chain shot was primarily an anti-rigging device, as it's almost certainly still vastly inferior to grapeshot in an antipersonnel role.
~J
~J
Chain shot had lower penetration and lower range (because it's less aerodynamic) and was less accurate, however it caused damage over a wider area (because it's not a single piece), and was especially good for catching things like ropes or spars (since it's basically a line). That's why it was used for, surprise, short-range shots at sails, ropes and spars. It would still kill a man just as dead, but would not be able to penetrate the hull of most combat ships. Grapeshot spread out the damage over a wider area (instead of a line for grape, imagine the spread of a shotgun). It still caused a lot of nasty damage to people, but now instead of one or two guys with a cannonball, it hit a bunch of people in an area. Plus it could be fired out of smaller, easier to use guns. It too had poor penetration. I'm not sure how it would fare against modern armor, but basically imagine a giant shotgun or a frag grenade.
Now a link to the most bizarre and amusing gun site on the internet: How to Hunt Wisconsin Whitetail Deer with a 12 pound Mountain Howitzer Cannon.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| I bet it would be—because it would create a larger volume of damage, and if you're hit by something like that with the medical technology of the day you're probably dead anyway. That said, my understanding is that chain shot was primarily an anti-rigging device, as it's almost certainly still vastly inferior to grapeshot in an antipersonnel role. ~J |
I realize that that is the proper term, but my first thought for about half a second was "Riggers didn't really exist in that period and I seriously doubt that chain shot would be an effective weapon against a modern vehicle of any sort". I am an idiot sometimes.
Chris
FWIW, the original job term "rigger" was someone who worked in the rigging of a ship, so the shot probably did take out a few riggers who didn't descend before the battle started 
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| FWIW, the original job term "rigger" was someone who worked in the rigging of a ship, so the shot probably did take out a few riggers who didn't descend before the battle started ~J |
Or those insane enough to go up after it did.
Chain/bar shot was not intended to take out people. if it hit them it was just luck, it was supposed to be used on the rigging, cutting away standing ropes. it was favored by the french. The english preferred round shot to hit the body of the ships. considering who won the conflict for dominance of the seas, I think we can draw a conclusion for which style worked better. (and yes I know there were a lot of other elements in it but the French last won a sea battle of significance over the Brits in 1781!)
Hoping to possibly bring this thread back on topic ...
I have been continuing my search for Shadowrun gear, and came across the following fascinating link. Having absolutely no idea about electronics and physics I can't vouch for the accuracy of any of it, but certainly I found it all highly interesting and I am integrating some items into my game. Anyway, without further ado ...
http://gbppr.dyndns.org/PROJ/mil/index.html
[EDIT] I should have added - I have no access to any Punisher comics without shelling out a lot of cash. Is there a list or anything of interesting Punisher gear ideas anywhere?
I have been continuing my search for Shadowrun gear, and came across the following fascinating link. Having absolutely no idea about electronics and physics I can't vouch for the accuracy of any of it, but certainly I found it all highly interesting and I am integrating some items into my game. Anyway, without further ado ...
http://gbppr.dyndns.org/PROJ/mil/index.html
[EDIT] I should have added - I have no access to any Punisher comics without shelling out a lot of cash. Is there a list or anything of interesting Punisher gear ideas anywhere?
wow. nice site.
most of that stuff is actually feasible, if extremely complicated.
some is borderline crazy, (hard driver platters for improvised armor... lets run some tests first) crazy like a fox, perhaps.
I'd hate for a lot of that stuff to be read by teenagers. all of it is dangerous/illegal in the extreme.
EDIT: wow. the author does rant. the technical stuff is interesting, but the rants this guy goes on are quite annoying. he spends 4 pages trying to rip 2600 a new one. he somehow feels obligated to hosting all the bak issues.
EDIT EDIT: ah. nvm. hes from Wisconsin. crazy Cheeseheads.
most of that stuff is actually feasible, if extremely complicated.
some is borderline crazy, (hard driver platters for improvised armor... lets run some tests first) crazy like a fox, perhaps.
I'd hate for a lot of that stuff to be read by teenagers. all of it is dangerous/illegal in the extreme.
EDIT: wow. the author does rant. the technical stuff is interesting, but the rants this guy goes on are quite annoying. he spends 4 pages trying to rip 2600 a new one. he somehow feels obligated to hosting all the bak issues.
EDIT EDIT: ah. nvm. hes from Wisconsin. crazy Cheeseheads.
| QUOTE (Snow_Fox) |
| Chain/bar shot was not intended to take out people. if it hit them it was just luck, it was supposed to be used on the rigging, cutting away standing ropes. it was favored by the french. The english preferred round shot to hit the body of the ships. considering who won the conflict for dominance of the seas, I think we can draw a conclusion for which style worked better. (and yes I know there were a lot of other elements in it but the French last won a sea battle of significance over the Brits in 1781!) |
There was also a little something that happened in 1789 that resulted in most of the (aristocratic) naval Officer Corps being killed. ^_-
But yeah, that's pretty accurate. For killing people, grape or scattershot might be used instead. And yes, from what I'm aware, the British concentrated on hitting the hull and killing the gunners, partly because they preferred to attack with the wind behind them, so more of the enemy hull was exposed to them (and conversely, more of their deck was exposed to the enemy).
Custom drill from hell.
Idea:
after making a hole 15 centimeter long drill bit was, well, transforming in some kind of rotor.
When I was GMing so new ppl to RPG, one of them want (badly, very - he asked me for three sessions: "is it ready? Is It READY?!") custom drill.
I thought it is lame, but i let him grab one for 15K (even price didn't scary this maniac). I forgot that he has this in his in equipment until they met Wendigo...
When he used that I was pretty shocked
- when i read desription of regeneration it was obvious that after succesful hit this drill is great HMHVV-killer.
Idea:
after making a hole 15 centimeter long drill bit was, well, transforming in some kind of rotor.
When I was GMing so new ppl to RPG, one of them want (badly, very - he asked me for three sessions: "is it ready? Is It READY?!") custom drill.
I thought it is lame, but i let him grab one for 15K (even price didn't scary this maniac). I forgot that he has this in his in equipment until they met Wendigo...
When he used that I was pretty shocked
- when i read desription of regeneration it was obvious that after succesful hit this drill is great HMHVV-killer.
In RL my team did a lot of mountain climbing so we have all that and camping experience for how to do stuff. Some construction skill and a couple of professional soldiers. It gave us interesting skill sets in rl
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