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Red
I ran into a magic related question while GM'ing for my group yesterday, and collectively we were unable to come to a solid conclusion. The team shaman was astrally projecting, and chased some dual natured awakened dingos (cerebus hounds) into an underground stream. Since they were dual natured he was able to stunball them into unconsciousness.

He cast levitate to drag the bodies back against the current, but he wasn't able to pull the bodies all the way before they drowned and died. At this point, they would have ceased to be dual natured. Does the levitate spell still function? I don't believe it is a line of sight issue. Rather the dingos simply ceased to exist on the astral plane where the spell was cast.

Ultimately it didn't matter. The shaman simply summoned a water spirit to drag the dingos out of the stream. But I'm still curious, because it might have implications for those that have astral perception. If the sustained spells still worked, then one could give buff spells to a spirit of man, and using metaplanar shortcuts they could deliver buffs to astral perceivers behind wards without materializing.

edited to clarify underground stream
FrankTrollman
How was he possibly incapable of pulling them out before they drowned? Levitate moves meters per second, drowning is... nowhere near that fast.

Secondly, how did he cast Levitate at all? Levitate is a physical spell, meaning that you have to be physical to cast it. As an Astrally projecting entity he would not have been able to cast that spell on any target.

The summoning of the Water Elemental of course works fine, and should have been his first attempt.

And lastly, a sustained spell does not need for its target to stay legal for the spell to continue. For example, Petrify can't target statues, but that doesn't mean that it dispels itself!

-Frank
Karaden
I'd guess that the GM was making the levitate go slower because it was pulling against the stream. As for drowning, I'd assume that they had already been underwater for a little while, and when they went unconcious... well holding your breath is hard to do when unconcious. (This is all asssuming they where compleatly underwater with no air above them)
Glayvin34
Yeah, the short answer is that Levitate can't be cast from the Astral.

But I'll assume levitate was cast in the physical and then the Mage projects while the spell is still being sustained for argument purposes. In this case, I'd say he would have to manifest to direct the spell, because he needs LOS. If the Mage remained in the Astral without manifesting, then the spell would remain in effect, but he would be unable to move the target because of the lack of LOS. So the target would remain in the air, the spell is still in effect, it just can't be moved around.

I guess it would be the same principle if you levitated an object and then left the room. The object would remain in the air, but without LOS you wouldn't be able to manipulate its position.
Abbandon
-why didnt the mage raise the dingo's up out of the water? water current should have been irrelevant.

-Forget levitate and astral lets get to the core issue.

A mage is astral, his target is dual natured, he is sustaining a spell on the target on the astral plane. Then the target dies. Is there anything left to target on the astral??(not that any spell would be helpful)

- If you cast levitate on a rock and then go astral and its floating above the ground a meter, shouldnt you still be able to manipulate it from the astral because now there is a big glowy levitate spell one meter off the ground in the astral too ???
Karaden
QUOTE (Abbandon)
-why didnt the mage raise the dingo's up out of the water? water current should have been irrelevant.

My assumption is that he is talking about an underground river (as opposed to underwater river) and that they had gone down it some distance. They went underground, thus, the only way to get them above water (because the water reached to the top of the underground passage though which it flowed) was to drag them back up through the stream to the point where they entered.

Of course my 'unconcious things arn't good at holding their breath' statement still stands, so they could have very likely taken a lungful of water the instant they where knocked unconcious. CPR to a dingo anyone?
Red
Oops. I meant to use the word underground instead of underwater. They were in a cave system at the time. I was factoring in some drag resistance due to the current, and the distance was less than trivial. These awakened dingos had the movement power, as well as a head start. They made a significant distance down stream on the way to the next air pocket. (They had memorized the system escaping from their original masters) I had a nice mental picture in mind, but that mental picture failed to make it into my original post. My apologies.

I failed to realize that the spell could not be cast in the astral. I'll keep that in mind.

Though I guess it does open another question. Does medium (air/water) pose any change to the movement speed granted by levitate? By RAW, probably not. But I don't believe it would be unreasonable.
Mercer
Why can't the spell be cast in the astral? Or more correctly, why can't an astral mage cast it on a dual-natured creature's (physical) body?

Regardless from that issue, my feeling was once a spell is cast and sustained you can generally keep sustaining it unless you or it have to go through a ward or something. To look at the opposite side, if your friend casts an Inc INT spell on you and then you go astral, your INT is still boosted. Likewise, if a meatbod mage buffed his meatbod team and then went astral to scout something, he could maintain those spells even if he flew to Topeka and back.

Or, in another weird example, could Petey the Projector cast Levitate on himself while he was physical, go astral and then guide his floating body around places? (It seems odd, but following my line of reasoning I can't think of a reason it wouldn't work. Or if it works on the rock, why wouldn't it work on the meatbod?*)

The metaplanes are probably a different issue, although magic (in any edition) is not my area of expertise. My feeling is a mage who is sustaining a spell on something in either the physical or the astral world has the link severed when they go into the metaplanes, but I never played around much with the metaplanes. Likewise, if you were sustaining a spell on something and that something left the manasphere (because your astronaut friend just had to be buffed), the spell would end at the edge of the manasphere. This would be similar to a sustained spell being disrupted by someone walking through a ward. The target goes where the magic can't follow.

Although if there was a specific ruling in the book one way or the other, it'd be nice to know about it. Really, I'm just guessing here.

(*Oof, that example is messing with my head. It might just be a whole lot easier to say a spell can't be sustained if the caster or the target are on different planes. Either way it seems like that would be covered in one of the books.)
Fortune
QUOTE (Mercer)
Why can't the spell be cast in the astral? Or more correctly, why can't an astral mage cast it on a dual-natured creature's (physical) body?

Because it is not possible to cast any Physical spell while Astrally Projecting. Purely Astral creatures or persons are limited to using Mana spells (or Powers, for that matter) only.
Jaid
levitate can't be cast on the astral because it is a physical spell. it can only exist on the physical plane. a mage on the astral has no LOS to the physical plane, regardless of whether the target is dual-natured or not.

spells can be sustained without LOS, but i would argue (as it appears some others around here) that you require LOS to manipulate one of your sustained spells. thus, if you cast stench in one place, and then walk away, you can't move it to a new place unless you still have LOS to it.
Crusher Bob
Assuming that Dingos aren't too oddly put together, they should have the diving reflex which, among other things, would tend to keep them from drowning until they actually run out of oxygen (some few minutes of time under water).
Karaden
Hmm, didn't know about that, kind of cool really. Though they may have gasped in pain when they where hit with the stunbolt? Oh well.
Red
The dingos had taken about 17 stun from two stunballs at that point. I was probably too hasty to drown the dingos because I hadn't thought it through. However the point was inconsequential. They received the same bounty whether they fetched the animals alive or dead so long as they had a body for proof. Nobody felt cheated or slighted in the matter. Given that the dingos were corrupted by toxics, the players weren't too keen on keeping them alive anyways. They were using stun for the lower drain. Mercy had little do to with it.

But I'll have to keep the diving reflex stuff in mind too. That's pretty nifty.
Moon-Hawk
As for levitation rate vs current, meh, there's nothing official but I don't think the GM is out of line at all to decrease the speed when fighting a current.
Granted, you can't cast a physical spell while projecting. Oopsie.
As for the real question, what happens when an astral mage sustains a spell on a dual-natured creature which ceases to be dual-natured? I'm going with the spell fails. Purely astral beings are not supposed to be able to affect purely physical ones. They're different planes. This is just my gut feeling on how I think SR magic is supposed to work.
Jaid
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
As for levitation rate vs current, meh, there's nothing official but I don't think the GM is out of line at all to decrease the speed when fighting a current.
Granted, you can't cast a physical spell while projecting. Oopsie.
As for the real question, what happens when an astral mage sustains a spell on a dual-natured creature which ceases to be dual-natured? I'm going with the spell fails. Purely astral beings are not supposed to be able to affect purely physical ones. They're different planes. This is just my gut feeling on how I think SR magic is supposed to work.

i'd have to disagree.

you can cast a spell on someone who then goes astral, and the spell is still sustained. why not the reverse?

as long as all the rules for targetting were followed in the original casting of the spell, it is possible to sustain the spell regardless of where the target (or the caster) moves to, with the exception of going to different metaplanes. controlling the spell, no, but sustaining absolutely.
Mercer
I understand that you can't cast Physical spells on the Astral, but in the case of a astral magician casting a Physical spell at a dual-natured creature, it seems like the spell is being cast on something physical, through the link provided through the creature.

I don't mind if the rules specifically prohibit this, but I'm looking for a page number.
Fortune
QUOTE (SR4 pg. 173)
A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be targeted). An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual natured) magician can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space. An astral target can only be affected by mana spells—even if the magician is in the physical world astrally perceiving—as it has no physical presence.
Mercer
I appreciate that Fortune.

I hate to sound stubborn, but it still seems like a dual-natured creature has both astral and physical forms. The prohibition in that text is that an astral mage can't affect physical world targets (because there is no link), and that a perceiving mage (who is dual natured) can't use physical spells on purely astral targets, because they have no physical form.

But dual natured creatures aren't purely astral. In much the same way that a dual natured creature can bite a astral magician, an astral magician can affect them with spells (or even punch them with his astral fist). If the dual-natured creatures were purely astral, physical spells would have no affect. But they're both physical and astral at the same time, so those spells have something to "grab" onto. (This may be yet more of my atavistic knowledge of previous editions bubbling through. I never really got over grounding being taken out of the game.)

Another thing that is bugging me is that Increase Attributes is Physical (at least in my book). So, if a mage has sustained Increase Intuition, and goes astral, does this mean his INT is no longer boosted? That seems odd. (Likewise, a spirit with that Innate Spell couldn't buff his boss if they were both astral, since Inc INT has no effect on astral forms?)

In the case of an astral magician Levitating his own body (through the spell he cast while physical and sustained while he projected), it makes sense that that spell would stick on the body since its a physical spell. It can't go astral. Inc Body too, the astral form has no Body Attribute (or more correctly, its Will is its Body) so there is nothing for that spell to do. But Inc Int does affect the mind (in fact, its your Astral Reaction), so it seems like that spell would do something. Buffing your mental stats in astral combat would seem like a good thing to do (and it really seems like those spells would be M).

Way back when there were two Levitate Spells, Levitate Person and Levitate Object, the dying while levitating thing came up. If you were levitating someone who got killed (past their physical overflow, Ess 0, deader than Caeser), the Levitate Person spell failed because technically, they became an object. I think the spells had different drain codes or something, which is why people always took Lev People. Occasionally there'd be a cool scene where a wounded person was floating back and just plopped on the ground when the spell failed. But if you had the Lev that didn't care if (like the current version), it didn't matter if they died or not.
Glayvin34
QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Dec 30 2007, 09:28 PM)
Assuming that Dingos aren't too oddly put together, they should have the diving reflex which, among other things, would tend to keep them from drowning until they actually run out of oxygen (some few minutes of time under water).

That would be a nifty drug or piece of bioware, the Diving Reflex Enhancer. Doubles the turns you don't take Stun damage while holding your breath underwater, or something (drowning rules on page 119).
Now back to the topic...

EDIT: My opinion comes from a on page 184 it says "Only Mana spells may affect astral forms." So if you're projecting, you can only see astral forms, and can only use mana spells. Physical spells can't be used because you don't have LOS to any Physical targets.
Glayvin34
QUOTE (Mercer)
Another thing that is bugging me is that Increase Attributes is Physical (at least in my book). So, if a mage has sustained Increase Intuition, and goes astral, does this mean his INT is no longer boosted? That seems odd. (Likewise, a spirit with that Innate Spell couldn't buff his boss if they were both astral, since Inc INT has no effect on astral forms?)

It seems to me that the spell would still affect you in the Astral, but it would have to have been cast on the Material. The spirit would have to Materialize and cast the spell on your shoes, because your astral form can only be targeted by mana spells.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Glayvin34)
QUOTE (Mercer @ Dec 31 2007, 02:43 PM)
Another thing that is bugging me is that Increase Attributes is Physical (at least in my book).  So, if a mage has sustained Increase Intuition, and goes astral, does this mean his INT is no longer boosted?  That seems odd.  (Likewise, a spirit with that Innate Spell couldn't buff his boss if they were both astral, since Inc INT has no effect on astral forms?)

It seems to me that the spell would still affect you in the Astral, but it would have to have been cast on the Material. The spirit would have to Materialize and cast the spell on your shoes, because your astral form can only be targeted by mana spells.

I agree. It's a physical spell, so it has to be targeted on the physical body of the projecting magician, but since something affecting the physical affects the astral form (and vice versa) it would work. What you couldn't do it cast the spell on the astral mage without his body around.
IMO
Karaden
Glayvin34 has put it fairly good. You can also use the mirror analogy that the book puts forth:

Physical stuff can only see other physical stuff, it can't see into the astral, nore can it affect anything over there. Astral stuff can see both physical stuff and astral stuff, but the mirror inbetween them affects the astral stuff doing anything to the physical stuff.

Now, dual natured stuff exists on both sides of the mirror at the same time. They do not however create a breach in the mirror through which an astral thing can directly affect the physical part of a dual natured creature. It can, however, indirectly effect the physical form by manipulating the astral form.
Mercer
I saw the thing on pg 184, but its the same conundrum. A dual-natured creature is both a physical and astral form.

Inc Att is just where is gets weird. Casting Inc INT on a projected mage's body to have his INT boost just seems odd. It does say that damage carries over between the two, but buff spells aren't mentioned. (That would make an interesting tactic though to send the mage into astral combat and have the other mage buff and Heal him; although big Heals might take too long to be really useful.)

If Inc Att is a Physical spell, according to page 184, it can't affect the astral form. Its an easier fix to make the Inc Mentals Mana spells and keep te Inc Physicals Physical (even if you leave it as one spell).

I'm not being deliberately obstinate about the dual-natured creature exception. I'm just looking for a specific ruling that disallows it. It seems like if a mage or adept were to perceive, an astrally projecting mage would be able to affect him with spells like Levitate and Inc Att, because the target is not purely physical (no link), or purely astral (no body). Dual-natured seems like it would be both, a physical body linked to the astral, the exception that proves the rule.
Jaid
hmmm... i could've swore there was some rule somewhere that explicitly says an astrally projecting magician can't even cast spells unless they are mana spells, but i can't seem to find it. anyone?
Fortune
QUOTE (SR4 pg. 171)
When looking at spells, the first thing to determine about it is how it interacts with its target. Just as there are both the physical and the astral planes, like two sides of a coin, a caster can choose to either affect a target’s physical form or to channel the spell into the mana of a creature—what many traditions believe to be the very essence of its life force.
A spell that affects a target physically is called a physical spell, while a spell that affects a target through mana is called a mana spell. A physical spell can only affect a target that has a physical form, and is incapable of affecting an astral form (see the Astral World, p. 181). Mana spells can only affect living things or entities composed of mana—such as spirits or foci.


Still doesn't quite say what I am looking for. You cannot target the physical body of a dual natured creature from the astral, just as you cannot target the actual material form of a focus from the Astral. You can only affect the Astral Form of these targets, which would require a Mana spell.
Red
Based on the information presented thus far, I'd like to pose a different example.

Joe and Bob are both shaman. Joe is astrally perceiving, and Bob is astrally projecting. Bob casts Mindlink (active, psychic, mana type detection spell) on Joe by touching his astral form while Joe is perceiving.

1. Does this spell work in this scenario? Why, or why not?

If yes, then...

Joe then turns off his astral perception.

(Two slightly different questions)
2. Can the mindlink still be sustained?
3. Does the spell mindlink still work?

I believe some of you have tried to answer this question already, but I wanted to pare down some of the factors to keep it simple.

You guys have been great at addressing my original question at the top of the thread. Thanks!
Mercer
QUOTE
A spell that affects a target physically is called a physical spell, while a spell that affects a target through mana is called a mana spell. A physical spell can only affect a target that has a physical form, and is incapable of affecting an astral form (see the Astral World, p. 181). Mana spells can only affect living things or entities composed of mana—such as spirits or foci.

Actually, according to that quote (which could be explained in greater detail elsewhere, or even contradicted), you can cast physical spells on dual-natured critters and people, since they have a physical form.

The only prohibition on casting Physical Spells on Astral targets that I know of is that they don't do anything; you can Powerbolt an astral spirit all day long, there's no body to key off of. I think the mage trying it would still face drain, but the target wouldn't be affected.

But as astral mage Powerbolting a dual-natured thingie would have a body to key off of, so the spell would affect them.

I think a large part of the interpretation of this rule comes down to how you feel about dual-natured creatures. The above rule mentions that astral and physical are like two sides of a coin. Most of the time, you're either one side or the other. A mundane person has an astral "reflection", you can see him on the astral, but you can't affect him-- not even with mana spells. A purely astral being can sometimes be detected on the physical world, but its likewise immune to physical affects. Even if you perceive, you can't affect him with Physical spells, because there is no physical form to key off of. Dual-natured creatures (be they critters or perceivers), are present in both planes, so that straddle that line. They are an astral thing with a physical body, and they're vulnerable to both.

Since to me, that means they are astral and physical at the same time, I would interpret that to mean they can be targeted by either mana or physical spells. A mage who astrally perceives could be Powerbolted by the sneaky projected mage because as a dual-natured creature, he's physical form is linked to his astral form. Had the targeted mage projected, he would be immune to the Powerbolt, because his astral form had no body to target, and his body would have no link to the astral plane. My 2 nuyen.gif.

(Likewise, I think a astral mage should be able to cast buff spells on dual-natured things, and that perceivers should be able to cast mental buffs on projected mages, but thats much simpler to fix by making the mental buffs Mana spells, which makes more sense to me anyway. As it stands now, an astral mage can't cast Inc Int on himself without going back to his physical body, and even if he did, the book specifically prohibits Physical Spells from affecting astral things, so it wouldn't follow him when he projected again.)
Mercer
For the mindlink question, I'd say yes on all three. Being Mana, the perceiver could cast it on the projector and maintain it after he stopped perceiving-- even after the projector returned to his body (which could be in China). You need LOS (and to be on the same plane) to cast the spell, but once you've cast it you can sustain it as long as the target doesn't go through a ward or leave the manasphere. (I still don't know enough about metaplanes to have an opinion, but my feeling that would likewise break the link.)
Fortune
QUOTE (Mercer)
Actually, according to that quote (which could be explained in greater detail elsewhere, or even contradicted), you can cast physical spells on dual-natured critters and people, since they have a physical form.

Yes, they do indeed have a Physical form, but you can't affect that Physical form portion of that being from the Astral ... only the Astral form portion of the being. And in order to affect the Astral form (and hence the Physical), you would need a Mana spell.
Abbandon
Bob would whiff if he tried to touch Joe to cast mindlink. Joe is only percieving the astral. There is nothing there for Bob to target or touch. Joe isnt really there. Joe would have to be astrally projecting.

I think you guys have to distinguish between targeting and affecting.

If one mage was astral and he had some dude buffing his meatbody he WOULD get the benefits of the spells. His stats in the astral are determined by his meat body. The spells arent going to fade or anthing if you are in the physical and then go astral either.
Fortune
QUOTE (Abbandon @ Jan 1 2008, 08:16 AM)
Bob would whiff if he tried to touch Joe to cast mindlink.  Joe is only percieving the astral.  There is nothing there for Bob to target or touch.  Joe isnt really there.  Joe would have to be astrally projecting.

Not true. Joe effectively becomes Dual Natured (having an actual presence on both planes) when he uses Astral Perception.
Abbandon
yeah your right the book says if you are percieving you are dual natured.
Mercer
@Fortune: I disagree with your interpretation. No biggie, there's lots of rules, lots of players, and a lot's of interpreting to be done. Without a specific page reference, we're just talking opinion.

My interpretation is that in the case of dual-natured beings, the astral and the physical form aren't seperated. If Physical Spells affect things with Physical Forms, and Dual Natured Creatures have Physical Forms, then I'd allow it. The only reason Physical Spells aren't useful from the astral is because there is no link to the physical plane. Dual-natured creatures provide that link, and can be affected.

I think Red's instinct in the initial encounter was the correct one. The critters could be cast upon by the mage because they were dual-natured, and that gave him a link. The spell affected the creature's physical form, which they had.

Another, muddier example would be two mages in a dark room. Neither can see each other so they both astrally perceive (becoming dual-natured), so that they can kill each other. Both, for reasons surpassing understanding, are using Powerbolts. Now, both casters are targeting each other's astral presence; the room is totally dark and they don't have LOS to the physical. My feeling is, those spells should work, because even though they are targeting on the astral, both casters are dual-natured, they are astral and physical at the same time.

If one mage projected and the other perceived, Petey the Projector could target Percy the Perceiver (these two seem to fight a lot, don't they?), because Percy is still connected to his body. Percy couldn't target Petey, because Petey has no physical form to target. (Percey can see Petey's body in the astral, but he can't target it because there's no link.) Percy has to either project himself and engage Petey in Astral Combat, or he has to try to kill Petey's body in the physical world.
Fortune
QUOTE (Mercer)
My interpretation is that in the case of dual-natured beings, the astral and the physical form aren't seperated.  If Physical Spells affect things with Physical Forms, and Dual Natured Creatures have Physical Forms, then I'd allow it.  The only reason Physical Spells aren't useful from the astral is because there is no link to the physical plane.  Dual-natured creatures provide that link, and can be affected.

If that were the case, then 'Grounding' would be possible in SR4 (or even SR3), as an Astrally Projecting caster could just target an Area Effect Physical spell like Fireball centered on you or any of your active Foci (or materialized Spirits).
Demerzel
QUOTE (Fortune)
If that were the case, then 'Grounding' would be possible in SR4 (or even SR3), as an Astrally Projecting caster could just target an Area Effect Physical spell like Fireball centered on you or any of your active Foci (or materialized Spirits).

Except while astrally projecting you can only cast mana spells not physical spells.
Fortune
Um ... that is the point we are discussing. Mercer says that it is possible not only to cast Physical spells while Projecting, but that a Dual Natured creature (or object by default) is a valid target for such spells. I disagree for reasons given above.
Demerzel
QUOTE (SR4 p184)

There are no known ranged weapons that function in astral space, so unarmed attacks, active weapon foci (see p. 192), and mana spells are the only options for astral combat.


If you could cast Physical Spells then that statement would be a falsehood, since astral combat can be a projecting magician vs. a dual natured critter/person
Mercer
Not to be obstinate, but all I'm interested in is a specific rules quote that says Dual-Natured Creatures are immune to physical spells cast from the astral, or that physical spells can't be cast on the astral (and not that they have no effect)*. Absent those specific prohibitions, we're talking about our own interpretations. And I don't mind talking intepretation (since that's a big part of what we do here), but interpretations aren't rules.

If there is no prohibition on it, I would allow it.

Coincidentally, I got Street Magic in the mail today, so I'll be reviewing that as well as the SR4 main book. But so far, everything that I've read and everything that has been quoted seems to make my interpretation as valid any other.

@Fortune: In SR2, you could ground physical spells out through the linked magician. You could ground physical spells through his projected image; a Fireball cast on his astral form would blow up his physical body. (I believe that was the specific example from the book.) In SR3, spells no longer "ground out" to the physical plane, but you could still blast dual-natured creatures with them. A dual-nature creature linked, so you could blast it with whatever, but the effect didn't ground out to the physical. A Powerballed dual-natured creature surrounded by astral forms and physical forms was Powerballed, but the astral forms weren't affected (because they didn't have physical forms) and the physical forms weren't affected (because there was no link to the physical plane). The Powerball only existed in the dual natured creature, since it was the only one that satisfied all the criteria (it had a physical body and a link to the astral). If there were multiple dual natured creatures in the AoE, you could Powerball them all, because they all met the criteria.

*I'm fairly certain Physical Spells can travel through the Astral, because there is no prohibition (I can find) on using Physical Spells in a Ritual Casting. If Physical Spells can't travel through the astral, Ritual Casting would have to be Mana-Only.
Demerzel
And the quote that specifies that mana spells along with unarmed attacks and active weapon foci are the only way you can damage anything while astral leaves the fact that you can somehow cast physical spells and do damage as a valid interpretation?
Demerzel
QUOTE (p182)

While astrally
perceiving, a magician can
cast mana spells at astral opponents.
Other astral forms
can engage an astrally perceiving
magician in astral combat
(p. 184) or cast mana spells at
him as well.


Here's a second case where it shows that an astral form can only cast mana based at a dual creature, specifically a astrally perceiving magician.
Mercer
Well, that's much closer to what I've been looking for. Its buried, and it took us two days to find it, but it does strongly imply that dual-natured creatures can only be affected by mana spells.

Now I'll be obstinate and house rule it.

And I'll probably make Increase Attributes a mana spell for mental attributes.
hyzmarca
Making dual natured creatures immune to physical spells was a very intentional decision intended to prevent the use of Grounding, a favored tactic in SR2, where a projecting magician would cast an indirect area combat spell at a dual-natured target, casing elemental death to explode outward from him, potentially making a TPK. It was fun to use on active foci.
Mercer
@hyz: I remember why they changed grounding from SR2 to SR3, but this doesn't really seem like a balance issue. Most mages take Manabolt or Stunbolt, anyway, so if they're able to blast from the astral, they usually can. Dual natured creatures are still vulnerable to attack from astral forms, and "grounding out" hasn't worked for years.

I hate to keep harping on this, but there are a couple of things that are jumping out at me. The first are the Detect family of spells. Detect Life is Mana, Detect Object is Physical. If a projected mage wanted to cast on of these on a perceiving physical adept (or any other dual natured creature), Detect Life would work and Detect Object wouldn't, but the spells aren't that different. Invisibility would work, Improved Invis wouldn't. It's just odd.

I understand why Physical Spells wouldn't work in Astral Combat (because they don't affect astral forms), but if dual natured creatures are simultaneously astral and physical (as SR, pg 182 states), it seems like it would work. Specifically, the two astrally-perceiving guys in the dark room unable to Powerbolt each other seems odd.
Karaden
Here is another little something.
[quote = p167]When the signal is received, it channels mana through the target to create a specifi ed effect (thus Direct Combat spells bypass armor, because they affect the target from within). All of this occurs on the same plane—physical or astral—as the magician and the target.[/quote]

The last part is the important part. All of this occurs on the same plane Thus indicating that a person in the astral plane can do nothing to affect the physical plane, even if the target exists on both planes.
Demerzel
QUOTE (Mercer)
it took us two days to find it

Well, to be fair I haven't been involved in the thread for two days, it only took me a few minutes. My bad for not being very involved around here for a few months. Blame Adam for cross posting some CBT stuff here on DSF and getting me distracted with Battletech.

As to the grounding thing I'm convinced it's a non-issue. You'll notice that area effect spells center on the target and affect any valid target within the radius. That verbiage that requires a valid target negates the ability of an astrally projecting mage from hitting a non-astrally active target with an area affect spell without bringing type into it at all.

Specifically:
QUOTE (SR4 p173)

a magician in
astral space can only cast spells on targets that have an astral
form (though the auras of things in the physical world can
be seen, auras alone cannot be targeted).
[ . . . ]
Area spells affect all valid
targets within the radius of effect,


Thus if your chummers mixing it up with a pack of Hell Hounds, and you're on Astral over watch you can just manaball the crap out of one of them and your chummers are safe as a . . . a . . . well a non-astral form in the radius of effect of a spell cast from the astral . . . or if you prefer think of something really really safe.

Even if you were for some reason willing to allow a projecting magician to cast a physical spell the targets without an astral form would be invalid targets and immune....

As far as funkillyness of spells that have mana/physical analogues and strange why does this mana spell work and that physical spell not; well magic is a strange beast. If you strive to make magic follow the logic you understand with your non-magically trained logic and have to house rule it to fit your logic then you're taking the magic out of magic.

Generally I look at game rules like this: We know what is real in our real lives from our real world experience. We know what the rules say, because they are there in black and white (and some times in color if your game system of choice swings that way). If they must absolutely coexist rather than try and generate a house rule to make them compatible, just change your interpretation of what it means to make it work without your house rule.

Because something is seemingly contradictory, rather than say, well we must change it or houserule it, for me the fun part is to say, well if that is the case, then what must be true for them not to be contradictory.

In the case of an astrally projecting magician being able to cast an illusion spell on a astrally perceiving character, but not be able to cast a improved invisibility spell you have to decide what the difference is between the two that is required for that to be acceptable.

Well, an improved invisibility spell alters the physical nature of the physical form in such a way as the light that would normally be reflected from it goes around or through it without any effect. While a mana based invisibility spell affects the astral portion of the object in such a way as it radiates some sort of magic energy that prevents a living mind from recognizing it's existence, and as a result fails to obfuscate a target from technological devices such as recorders.

The casting magician must target the physical portion of a dual natured form to cast the physical improved invisibility but they can really only target an astral form. Well then you must draw some conclusions from that about the nature of dual-natured forms and their physical and astral forms. I see it as they are bound to each other and must be in the same space, but they are not links to each other in so far as targeting spells in concerned.

QUOTE
It's just odd.

Maybe you should say, "It's just magical."
Mercer
I don't know Demerzel, to me it seems like anything about magic-- or any game rule-- is just something somebody made up. You could just as easily switch a few P's for M's and things would work differently. It wouldn't make the game any less magical.

One thing they did from SR3 to SR4 is put all the Elemental Manipulations under Combat. You used to not be able to Acid Stream a dual-natured critter from astral because the elemental manipulations only existed on the physical. Moving those spells into Combat changes things, because you don't want people casting astral Flamethrowers. So the Physical restriction makes sense from that perspective. But now there are a host of other spells that used to work but now don't.

There's a lot of things my old group either houseruled or intentionally ignored. Imp Invis "bending light" was one. These changes didn't rob the system of its "magic", it just made it conform to our preferred view of how magic should work. Considering how any new supplement can alter how something in the game works, and considering how no rule system can cover every conceivable situation that crops up in play, houserules are going to develop.
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