There used to be an Edge in SR2, Friends in High Places: a very popular one in our group. ... Or maybe I should say "commonly used" instead, because although the PCs do frequently end up with level 1 or 2 contacts with significant world power, others in the world quickly also become aware of the PCs in that context and try to use the PCs against the contact. Thus PCs with such contacts frequently end up as other people's pawns (PCs don't take all that well to being used), or with second-hand Enemies and Hunted (and they often won't know who or why).
At the same time, those kinds of contacts frequently worked to get to their level of world power, and they're not about to do anything that endangers it, no matter how they feel about the PC. Practically, this means that most contact-help is limited first by accessibility (the contact is difficult to reach, or the PCs might create unwanted waves by forcing reachability), and second by the type of help wanted (training and some access to equipment far more likely than information which could backfire on the contact in any way). Possible help in a difficult position, possible unexpected allies from the contact's friends - but also quite probably being left to deal with the situation oneself, with only the absolutely minimal help needed to survive relatively intact.
Do you (or does your GM) allow high-level contacts in your games? If yes, are there limits to the type of contact (eg. no buddies or friends-for-life)? Have you ever had a high-level contact? Who? and how did you play it?
Editing to clarify: by "high-level contacts" I mean contacts with power, such as CEOs and megacorporation officers, high-ranking government officials, IEs, free spirits, dragons ... (When you look back at your own writing and go "yuck", it's time to rephrase.)
Full Version: Powerful Pc Contacts
The only contact I've ever taken above level 1 is Shadowland, since rules state it must be taken at level 2. I can see our GM making the contact thing work both ways if someone takes a level 2 or 3 buddy. At level 3, I can see that person becoming part of the storyline (as in asking the group for help, or calling in a major favor). The closer the runner is to the contact, the easier someone else (insert evil corp here) could go through the contact (through evil means) and find the runner (and do evil things to said runner. Enough evil there for ya 
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As a GM I have used high level contacts with my players. I had one notorious NPC whom I used as a frequent contact and Johnson for my players. (By notorious, I do not mean someone from the published materials, I mean someone who was very well known both to my players and to the Shadowland community.) This NPC wielded a considerable amount of influence within the Tir Tairngire Peace Force, and had a tremendous cache of personal resources at his disposal. The PCs would use him and the company he owned not only as a source of jobs, but also information, gear, and outsourced decking. The PCs considered him to be a loyal and friendly contact. They trusted him right up until the end of their final run together when he dicked them over but good.
For starters, as I GM, I don't allow the contacts at the levels you've describes.
High level contacts could include an upper executive from a mid-sized corporation or a high level city official.
National level officals, high level executives in AAA megas are something totally different. And we won't even consider IEs and GDs as contacts.
Personally as a GM, I'll allow first first (big shots from mid-sized corps & high ranking city officials) under the friends in high places. I won't allow the others. For national big-shots and for AAA executives you might (after years of game play and some really good roleplaying) develope one as a contact (if your really good), but not ever at character creation.
The third catagory (the IEs and GDs) might manipulate things from behind the scenes, but the PCs won't know who's doing it. After years they might get a glimpse of the IE or GD, maybe even meet and find out who the person is (but no secrets revealed). Never, ever, ever do IEs or GDs become contacts. They know how to contact the PCs, but the PCs don't know how (nor would they dare) to contact the IE or GD.
Free spirits, of course are an entirely different catagory since their power is based on their force. I don't allow contacts of free spirits at creation, but I'm working one in slowly as an NPC. The free spirit in question is moderate force, in the mid-to-upper single digits. A free spirit with a force in the double digits is something akin to a AAA corporate officer or national government official. It's unlikely that I'll play such an NPC in a way that'll allow the PCs to develope them as a contact. On the other hand, a mid-to-lower force free spirit would be possible- like say a force 3 or 4, I might allow as a contact (though probably not at creation).
Once you open the can of worms of having really high level contacts (like the two catagories that include national high ranking government officials and AAA upper executives), it's really tought to get back.
Perhaps I'm overstepping here, but I assume from your question that you are experiencing some difficulty balancing power in your campaign. That's not necessarily the case. The beauty of the game is that you can play at any power level and it's okay, because it's your game. As long as you and your players are having fun, it's all good. If everything is fine, disregard the rest of this post. But I make the assumption that there are some kind of problems because of the effects I envision such high-level contacts as you describes causing to the power-balance of a campaign. My assumptions are not necessarily they way you feel about the game, so I hope you will not offended by the assumption.
If your players use of the friends in high places edge is creating balance or power problems, here are some suggestions that might help shift things in the direction you want.
Starting a new "street level" campaign is probably the path of least resistance. You can retire the old character (give them a run where they make enough to retire) and start new. Starting new decreases the conflict with your players, anything you do to reduce the power and influence of an established PC is going to create some tension with the players. Of course I doubt you want to start all over, I certainly wouldn't, so I'll offer the rest of my ideas on the assumption that you want to make some changes without starting over.
First and foremost, you've already mentioned that the NCPs in question are upper level types who have gained significant power and are unwilling to risk it for the PCs. Consider also that people in high places have a lot of contacts, so having the PCs as a contact is just a drop in their bucket of resources and (personal feelings of friendship aside) the loss of the PCs as a contact is not going to be a significant loss for the high-level NPC.
Consider that the NCP may use the PCs as a pawn in a way that would terminate any trust between the PC and the NPC. For example, if the upper level NPC can gain enough by betraying the PC, they probably will (especially if you can manipulate things so that the NPC doesn't have a choice or the prize for betraying the PC is just too good to pass up). Once the NPC has betrayed the PC, the PC will not trust the NPC and the problem is solved (unless the PC decides to go for vengence, in which case you've got a problem, because the PC shouldn't win. Try to set things up in a way that discourages vendettas or at least lets the PC know that it wouldn't be a good idea and will cost the PC more than they'll gain).
Secondly, you can go the opposite route. You can dangle something in front of the PC that will make it worth it for the PC to betray the NPC. Once done, it may not be worth the NPCs time to get vengence on the lowely PC, but the trust will be gone and the beauty is that the PC made the choices that destroyed the contact-relationship.
Third, if you have PCs who are loyal enough not to do betray their contacts, you always have the option of setting things up so that the NPC thinks that the PC betrayed him (frame job). Set that up in a way that the NPC believes the frame, but doesn't go after the PC, and so that the PC knows (s)he's been framed. Then the PC will try to correct the frame job rather than go after the NPC.
Finally, you can have the NPCs begin to ask too much of the PCs. The NPC may want to PCs to be his exclusive employees and may move toward changing the nature of their relationship. This is only useful if the PCs are not going to want the relationship to change in the way the NPC does. In this case, tension is formed naturally that leads to degeneration of the contact-relationship. Consider that the high level NPC is a big-shot, much more powerful than the PCs and much more important. He begins to think that he shouldn't have to ask his pawns for favors, they should do what he tells them. He begins to think that they should be employees, not contacts and moves toward that. Remember that persons that are that high up on the food chain have lots of contacts (the PCs are probably not very important to his power base) and that such people are used to being in charge, not to bargening.
High level contacts could include an upper executive from a mid-sized corporation or a high level city official.
National level officals, high level executives in AAA megas are something totally different. And we won't even consider IEs and GDs as contacts.
Personally as a GM, I'll allow first first (big shots from mid-sized corps & high ranking city officials) under the friends in high places. I won't allow the others. For national big-shots and for AAA executives you might (after years of game play and some really good roleplaying) develope one as a contact (if your really good), but not ever at character creation.
The third catagory (the IEs and GDs) might manipulate things from behind the scenes, but the PCs won't know who's doing it. After years they might get a glimpse of the IE or GD, maybe even meet and find out who the person is (but no secrets revealed). Never, ever, ever do IEs or GDs become contacts. They know how to contact the PCs, but the PCs don't know how (nor would they dare) to contact the IE or GD.
Free spirits, of course are an entirely different catagory since their power is based on their force. I don't allow contacts of free spirits at creation, but I'm working one in slowly as an NPC. The free spirit in question is moderate force, in the mid-to-upper single digits. A free spirit with a force in the double digits is something akin to a AAA corporate officer or national government official. It's unlikely that I'll play such an NPC in a way that'll allow the PCs to develope them as a contact. On the other hand, a mid-to-lower force free spirit would be possible- like say a force 3 or 4, I might allow as a contact (though probably not at creation).
Once you open the can of worms of having really high level contacts (like the two catagories that include national high ranking government officials and AAA upper executives), it's really tought to get back.
Perhaps I'm overstepping here, but I assume from your question that you are experiencing some difficulty balancing power in your campaign. That's not necessarily the case. The beauty of the game is that you can play at any power level and it's okay, because it's your game. As long as you and your players are having fun, it's all good. If everything is fine, disregard the rest of this post. But I make the assumption that there are some kind of problems because of the effects I envision such high-level contacts as you describes causing to the power-balance of a campaign. My assumptions are not necessarily they way you feel about the game, so I hope you will not offended by the assumption.
If your players use of the friends in high places edge is creating balance or power problems, here are some suggestions that might help shift things in the direction you want.
Starting a new "street level" campaign is probably the path of least resistance. You can retire the old character (give them a run where they make enough to retire) and start new. Starting new decreases the conflict with your players, anything you do to reduce the power and influence of an established PC is going to create some tension with the players. Of course I doubt you want to start all over, I certainly wouldn't, so I'll offer the rest of my ideas on the assumption that you want to make some changes without starting over.
First and foremost, you've already mentioned that the NCPs in question are upper level types who have gained significant power and are unwilling to risk it for the PCs. Consider also that people in high places have a lot of contacts, so having the PCs as a contact is just a drop in their bucket of resources and (personal feelings of friendship aside) the loss of the PCs as a contact is not going to be a significant loss for the high-level NPC.
Consider that the NCP may use the PCs as a pawn in a way that would terminate any trust between the PC and the NPC. For example, if the upper level NPC can gain enough by betraying the PC, they probably will (especially if you can manipulate things so that the NPC doesn't have a choice or the prize for betraying the PC is just too good to pass up). Once the NPC has betrayed the PC, the PC will not trust the NPC and the problem is solved (unless the PC decides to go for vengence, in which case you've got a problem, because the PC shouldn't win. Try to set things up in a way that discourages vendettas or at least lets the PC know that it wouldn't be a good idea and will cost the PC more than they'll gain).
Secondly, you can go the opposite route. You can dangle something in front of the PC that will make it worth it for the PC to betray the NPC. Once done, it may not be worth the NPCs time to get vengence on the lowely PC, but the trust will be gone and the beauty is that the PC made the choices that destroyed the contact-relationship.
Third, if you have PCs who are loyal enough not to do betray their contacts, you always have the option of setting things up so that the NPC thinks that the PC betrayed him (frame job). Set that up in a way that the NPC believes the frame, but doesn't go after the PC, and so that the PC knows (s)he's been framed. Then the PC will try to correct the frame job rather than go after the NPC.
Finally, you can have the NPCs begin to ask too much of the PCs. The NPC may want to PCs to be his exclusive employees and may move toward changing the nature of their relationship. This is only useful if the PCs are not going to want the relationship to change in the way the NPC does. In this case, tension is formed naturally that leads to degeneration of the contact-relationship. Consider that the high level NPC is a big-shot, much more powerful than the PCs and much more important. He begins to think that he shouldn't have to ask his pawns for favors, they should do what he tells them. He begins to think that they should be employees, not contacts and moves toward that. Remember that persons that are that high up on the food chain have lots of contacts (the PCs are probably not very important to his power base) and that such people are used to being in charge, not to bargening.
No difficulty, although it's certainly not overstepping to assume that I might have been writing out of that perspective. I was just looking over a few PCs and NPCs who really do range the socioeconomic gamut and realising that, for the few who did have a high level contact (no dragon starting contacts in ours either!), the negatives more than outweighed the positives. In fact, in at least one case it's starting to seem as though there weren't really any positives, net or otherwise. (The players in my group would certainly agree with that last assessment: one reason why they try to avoid that Edge like the plague ... yet "commonly used" nevertheless: intricate and convoluted plot hooks 'R' us 
)
So I started wondering what everyone else's experience was ... especially considering the "Dunkelzahn's son" post of a few days back. So the rest of your post, Squire, should definitely not be disregarded, by me or by anyone. Although I can think of at least a fifth: assassinate the high-level contact - and frame the PCs for it
)So I started wondering what everyone else's experience was ... especially considering the "Dunkelzahn's son" post of a few days back. So the rest of your post, Squire, should definitely not be disregarded, by me or by anyone. Although I can think of at least a fifth: assassinate the high-level contact - and frame the PCs for it
A 2-point edge shoud be an edge. If the GM uses that edge in such a way that it's becoming a flaw, then they're not doing their job. Simply having a friend in a high place isn't automatic license to screw the character.
I think sometimes GMs fall in love with their ability to think up evil shit to torment players with and forget the game mechanic... 2 build points is pretty huge, and should be treated as such.
If it won't work within the campaign for whatever reason, just don't allow it.
I think sometimes GMs fall in love with their ability to think up evil shit to torment players with and forget the game mechanic... 2 build points is pretty huge, and should be treated as such.
If it won't work within the campaign for whatever reason, just don't allow it.
This is Shadowrun, my good man. Everything is an automatic license to screw the character! 
Seems suddenly to have gone from one extreme to the other: from the "is your game broken due to ultra-powerful NPC contacts" to "is your game broken due to your not being able to properly use your ultra-powerful NPC contacts". I can see how things I've said here could have created both impressions - but still, it seems rather a drastic shift.
So what's proper use of these kinds of contacts?
So what's proper use of these kinds of contacts?
Whichever best fits your groups style of play of course.
I don't believe there is any such thing as "proper". It's all a matter of what's appropriate for your game. For my campaign appropriate was to make the players feel secure, give them lots of goodies, and then at the end turn them into corporate slaves. For another campaign appropriate might be to simply provide the runners with some information which they have been unable to obtain by other means.
Now I've never given my players a contact along the lines of a megacorporate VP of Operations or national Attorney General. To my mind that's going too far. Besides, how on Earth do the players explain their character's relationship with someone in such a high position? People like that do not befriend shadowrunners.
Balance and realism are they keys here. Ask yourself, is it reasonable to think that this PC and this NPC might be acquainted? Make the player establish and explain the relationship for you. If it sounds like bunk, then it probably is. If the relationship can be resonably established to your satisfaction, then you need to decide whether or not this contact might unbalance the game by virtue of their position, personal resources, and/or willingness to aid the PC. If the contact passes these tests, then they're probably okay to use. And remember, you are the GM: if you feel a contact is being abused or overused, have them react appropriately. Contacts are (meta)human beings, too. Make up an excuse for why the contact can't be reached (on vacation, got arrested, dead, in surgery, weekend drill for the National Guard, etc.). They are also perfectly capable of telling the PCs when to piss off if they ask for too much.
Now I've never given my players a contact along the lines of a megacorporate VP of Operations or national Attorney General. To my mind that's going too far. Besides, how on Earth do the players explain their character's relationship with someone in such a high position? People like that do not befriend shadowrunners.
Balance and realism are they keys here. Ask yourself, is it reasonable to think that this PC and this NPC might be acquainted? Make the player establish and explain the relationship for you. If it sounds like bunk, then it probably is. If the relationship can be resonably established to your satisfaction, then you need to decide whether or not this contact might unbalance the game by virtue of their position, personal resources, and/or willingness to aid the PC. If the contact passes these tests, then they're probably okay to use. And remember, you are the GM: if you feel a contact is being abused or overused, have them react appropriately. Contacts are (meta)human beings, too. Make up an excuse for why the contact can't be reached (on vacation, got arrested, dead, in surgery, weekend drill for the National Guard, etc.). They are also perfectly capable of telling the PCs when to piss off if they ask for too much.
Even low level contacts can be a problem, depending on how the GM handles them. The best method, in my opinion, is a reciprocal relationship. While you've got Mr. Megacorp President as a level 3 contact, you've also got to realize that he has you as a level 3 contact. Of course, you're going to call on your buddy when you have a problem you can't solve and he's going to do it for little or nothing, but what happens when he runs against a problem he can't solve?
As a GM, these favor exchanges should have their magnitude established by the PC (unless it's a story element you want to work with). If the PCs are careful and only call on the "big guns" in true emergencies, it shouldn't be a problem.
As a GM, these favor exchanges should have their magnitude established by the PC (unless it's a story element you want to work with). If the PCs are careful and only call on the "big guns" in true emergencies, it shouldn't be a problem.
Would the Pope have God as a "friend in high places" Buddy contact?
Nah, he's still pissed at the church because his contender lost out during the three popes scandal of 1409.
Talia, you're evil and I love it.
Schnee's point is also well taken, but then I must point out that it's only a 2 point edge. 2 points isn't much cost given the sort of influnce a truely high level NPC can weild. For an upper executive of a megacorp, I'd charge a hell of a lot more than two points, even as a level one contact.
Of course there really is no right answer. FlackJacket hit it right on the head- whatever fits your campain is the best solution for your campaign.
Schnee's point is also well taken, but then I must point out that it's only a 2 point edge. 2 points isn't much cost given the sort of influnce a truely high level NPC can weild. For an upper executive of a megacorp, I'd charge a hell of a lot more than two points, even as a level one contact.
Of course there really is no right answer. FlackJacket hit it right on the head- whatever fits your campain is the best solution for your campaign.
Also notice that what your contact will do to/for you depends on your relationship with them. Consider the following:
Contact: VP of Ares
Relationship:
Choose 1:
1. Character was team leader of SR team that extracted the VP's son/daughter/cat from white slavery ring/bug hive/cult of scientology.
2. Character and VP have been friends since college/military/orphanage days.
3. Character has data proving that VP got current promotion because he killed and ate the competitors.
So notice that what you can get your 'high level' contact to do for you depends on the type of relationship the character has with their contact.
Without additional information, I tend to assume that most contacts have a 'good working relationship' and that any action of one for the other is likely to involve cash (though there may be a 10% discount for 'friends who are down on their luck').
Since most 'high level' contacts (either 'buddy-buddy' or powerful (or both)) are not likely to be really motivated by money, a bit more though needs to go into the relationship...
Contact: VP of Ares
Relationship:
Choose 1:
1. Character was team leader of SR team that extracted the VP's son/daughter/cat from white slavery ring/bug hive/cult of scientology.
2. Character and VP have been friends since college/military/orphanage days.
3. Character has data proving that VP got current promotion because he killed and ate the competitors.
So notice that what you can get your 'high level' contact to do for you depends on the type of relationship the character has with their contact.
Without additional information, I tend to assume that most contacts have a 'good working relationship' and that any action of one for the other is likely to involve cash (though there may be a 10% discount for 'friends who are down on their luck').
Since most 'high level' contacts (either 'buddy-buddy' or powerful (or both)) are not likely to be really motivated by money, a bit more though needs to go into the relationship...
Remember for any contact high or low, the contact-customer relationship goes both ways. The character is the contact's contact as well, which means the contact can come to the character for goods and services.
This seems to be the best way of dealing with high level contacts. The NPC is not the character's contact so much as the PC is the NPC's contact! Hell, the character may not even want to know anything about the contact but the contact keeps on coming to the character for certain "favours" (usually having to pull off runs for them etc.). In exchange the powerful contact throws the character info or gear the character might want to prevent them from proactively poisoning the connection.
Say the character is a former company man who left the corporation. His superior (Jezebel Serrateu for the sake of this example) knows his location. In exchange for certain services, she doesn't rat his location to her superiors. She also gives him access to certain info the Seraphim have in areas of his interest (low level stuff, but how is he supposed to know that). She also might be able to get him surplus equipment and Cross merchandise.
Although it sounds like a sweet deal for the character, in reality Jezebel has a personal deniable asset that if used carefully can do 100,000s or even millions of nuyen damage to her competitors. Not bad from some old equipment and low level info.
That's the cost of running the streets chummer, and the higher up the "contact", the higher the cost. Simple equation.
At least that's how I've used it. It's worked well for the two characters who had really high level contacts.
This seems to be the best way of dealing with high level contacts. The NPC is not the character's contact so much as the PC is the NPC's contact! Hell, the character may not even want to know anything about the contact but the contact keeps on coming to the character for certain "favours" (usually having to pull off runs for them etc.). In exchange the powerful contact throws the character info or gear the character might want to prevent them from proactively poisoning the connection.
Say the character is a former company man who left the corporation. His superior (Jezebel Serrateu for the sake of this example) knows his location. In exchange for certain services, she doesn't rat his location to her superiors. She also gives him access to certain info the Seraphim have in areas of his interest (low level stuff, but how is he supposed to know that). She also might be able to get him surplus equipment and Cross merchandise.
Although it sounds like a sweet deal for the character, in reality Jezebel has a personal deniable asset that if used carefully can do 100,000s or even millions of nuyen damage to her competitors. Not bad from some old equipment and low level info.
That's the cost of running the streets chummer, and the higher up the "contact", the higher the cost. Simple equation.
At least that's how I've used it. It's worked well for the two characters who had really high level contacts.
What was particularly curious (for me) was that the two opposite interpretations came about as a result of having read the exact same post!
CrusherBob:
4. Character is the bastard child of said VP, and for whatever reason cannot be acknowledged. Character has the ability to prove said relationship. The character's mother may be loved by said VP, or may be an embarrassment and an obstacle to be removed asap.
CrusherBob:
4. Character is the bastard child of said VP, and for whatever reason cannot be acknowledged. Character has the ability to prove said relationship. The character's mother may be loved by said VP, or may be an embarrassment and an obstacle to be removed asap.
| QUOTE |
| While you've got Mr. Megacorp President as a level 3 contact, you've also got to realize that he has you as a level 3 contact. - TinkerGnome |
Not necessarily true. It is entirely possible for a contact to be level 2 one way and level 1 the other: just consider what one person would be willing to do for the other, and whether it is the same both ways. Even if it is not, the contact can still be stable: a runner might be willing to do far, far more to retain a valuable contact than that contact would be willing to do in return, relative to their respective abilities.
| QUOTE |
| Remember for any contact high or low, the contact-customer relationship goes both ways. The character is the contact's contact as well, which means the contact can come to the character for goods and services. - Ronin Soul |
Exactly. What is crucial (I think) is the concept of reciprocity: that there is some sense on both sides of give-and-take, and that in each case it matches the expectations of both sides.
As for equipment and lifestyles, rebalancing (if needed) is a very simple thing for contacts. Power has its place, as does powerlessness. The catch is how to bring those types of NPCs into a game without (a) making the PCs feel like driven pawns continually (occasionally may work); and (b) letting the PCs get away with far, far too much to ensure continued playability. Some of those principles can be generalised among games. Others cannot be.
I like to make rules within the rules that add structure to things that don't have structure.
So for contacts I offer the characters the following options: (of course they can still get roleplaying contacts.
Trainers: What is the karate Kid without Mr. Miagi (spelling?)? Make your trainer a contact!
Level 1 Trainer. Full nuyen price, but hey, they are available. 1 area of expertise.
Level 2 Trainer. Half nuyen price, 3 area of expertise.
Level 3 trainer. Free of charge! 9 areas of expertise. (You better listen or he will kick your ass!)
Fixers: I limit lvl 1 fixers to 3 categories of skills for equipment availability. Example, If you want access to pistols, pistols would be 1 category. So if you want to find armor, grenades, and biotech supplies, that would take up all of the level 1 contacts area of availability. Anything beyond the categories falls into a friend of a friend. Level 2 contacts have 9, while level 3 fixers have 27.
Smiths: These guys come with large B/R skills. They have the ability to get parts for your requests, some are better then others.
Level 1 Smith: charisma/negotiation 6, 1 category at b/r skill 10, 150% cost.
Level 2 Smith: charisma/negotiation 9, 3 categories at b/r skill 15, 130% cost.
Level 3 Smith: charisma/negotiation 12, 9 categories at b/r skill 20, 110% cost.
Well you get the idea. I am always tweaking them, i find i tend to unbalance gameplay sometimes with the smiths (gee I wonder why). other then that these rules work pretty well and gives chars incentives to go higher.
So for contacts I offer the characters the following options: (of course they can still get roleplaying contacts.
Trainers: What is the karate Kid without Mr. Miagi (spelling?)? Make your trainer a contact!
Level 1 Trainer. Full nuyen price, but hey, they are available. 1 area of expertise.
Level 2 Trainer. Half nuyen price, 3 area of expertise.
Level 3 trainer. Free of charge! 9 areas of expertise. (You better listen or he will kick your ass!)
Fixers: I limit lvl 1 fixers to 3 categories of skills for equipment availability. Example, If you want access to pistols, pistols would be 1 category. So if you want to find armor, grenades, and biotech supplies, that would take up all of the level 1 contacts area of availability. Anything beyond the categories falls into a friend of a friend. Level 2 contacts have 9, while level 3 fixers have 27.
Smiths: These guys come with large B/R skills. They have the ability to get parts for your requests, some are better then others.
Level 1 Smith: charisma/negotiation 6, 1 category at b/r skill 10, 150% cost.
Level 2 Smith: charisma/negotiation 9, 3 categories at b/r skill 15, 130% cost.
Level 3 Smith: charisma/negotiation 12, 9 categories at b/r skill 20, 110% cost.
Well you get the idea. I am always tweaking them, i find i tend to unbalance gameplay sometimes with the smiths (gee I wonder why). other then that these rules work pretty well and gives chars incentives to go higher.
| QUOTE (Squire) |
| Talia, you're evil and I love it. Schnee's point is also well taken, but then I must point out that it's only a 2 point edge. 2 points isn't much cost given the sort of influnce a truely high level NPC can weild. For an upper executive of a megacorp, I'd charge a hell of a lot more than two points, even as a level one contact. Of course there really is no right answer. FlackJacket hit it right on the head- whatever fits your campain is the best solution for your campaign. |
| QUOTE |
| Schnee's point is also well taken, but then I must point out that it's only a 2 point edge. 2 points isn't much cost given the sort of influnce a truely high level NPC can weild. For an upper executive of a megacorp, I'd charge a hell of a lot more than two points, even as a level one contact. |
Well, let me clarify. Two points gives either a frequent slight advantage (+/-1 dice, +/-1tn), or a significant advantage in narrow circumstances (-/+2 TNs, etc.).
A 'friend in a high place' at two points would, to me, be useful for significant help every once in a while. Say, if it's someone high up in a bank, they would have great FOF referrrals for financial matters, say getting your 100,000 nuyen from that big score into a very discriminating monetary fund with a high rate of return. Or, if they're a well-placed johnson in a megacorp, the character would get a bit of inside info that alerts them to a double-cross they didn't find on their own... I wouldn't let it happen often, but it'd be like occasionally getting a very good success rating in an Etiquette check, or like using Karma to get a re-roll on something that could ruin their day. VERY occasional.
Could it be a great plot point? Sure. But, if it's used that way, then the more trouble that connection brings the more benefit the character should get. It should *slightly* balance out in their favor, because... wait for it... the character purchased an edge not a flaw.
Using an edge only to screw them over in 'mu hu hua I'm evil' style is like the asshat DM I played D&D with when I was in Jr. High... 'oh, you rolled a 20? Rolled another 20? Ok, you cut all the way through the guy, and you swung so strong that you cut off your own right arm. Take 40 damage.' Childish, mean-spirited and pathetic.
Long ago I read a bit of wisdom about high level contacts that I've carried ever since. "The more power they have, the less they are able to help you." The president of a megacorp can do very little for you or risk being directly associated with criminals. The yak boss may have trouble maintaining loyalty if he lets you go after you blew away a bunch of yaks. This works for just about any high-powered position I can think of.
When a GM runs an encounter with a high lvl contact, it is the responsibility of the GM and the player to remember that these contacts have their own agendas that may conflict with that of the runners.
For instance, my Wolf Shaman, Revenant, has a Yakuza Oyabun as a level 2 contact. (This was an earned contact - I didn't give it to him)
Revenant is on good terms with the Yakuza, because he's done several runs for them and even provided them with free intel that they could use to screw over the Mafia on a few occasions. A criminal organization is less likely to screw you over when you're a valuable asset, and Revenant figures the Yak are more honorable and less likely to stab you in the back than the Mafia, which is why he does jobs for them if it doesn't conflict with his interests. But does Revenant trust them? Hah! Not as far as a flea could throw the Chrysler Building, Chummers!
(He has other level 2 contacts, but I wouldn't consider those `high level', since they're not in positions as powerful as the Yak Oyabun is)
For instance, my Wolf Shaman, Revenant, has a Yakuza Oyabun as a level 2 contact. (This was an earned contact - I didn't give it to him)
Revenant is on good terms with the Yakuza, because he's done several runs for them and even provided them with free intel that they could use to screw over the Mafia on a few occasions. A criminal organization is less likely to screw you over when you're a valuable asset, and Revenant figures the Yak are more honorable and less likely to stab you in the back than the Mafia, which is why he does jobs for them if it doesn't conflict with his interests. But does Revenant trust them? Hah! Not as far as a flea could throw the Chrysler Building, Chummers!
(He has other level 2 contacts, but I wouldn't consider those `high level', since they're not in positions as powerful as the Yak Oyabun is)
| QUOTE (schnee) |
| Could it be a great plot point? Sure. But, if it's used that way, then the more trouble that connection brings the more benefit the character should get. It should *slightly* balance out in their favor, because... wait for it... the character purchased an edge not a flaw. Using an edge only to screw them over in 'mu hu hua I'm evil' style is like the asshat DM I played D&D with when I was in Jr. High... 'oh, you rolled a 20? Rolled another 20? Ok, you cut all the way through the guy, and you swung so strong that you cut off your own right arm. Take 40 damage.' Childish, mean-spirited and pathetic. |
I agree entirely. It is an edge and the character should benefit from it. Edges are not licenses to screw the character.
However, it is a 2 point edge, which means it is not that big of an edge. My suggestions were intended for games in which the 2 point edge has become a major disruption of game balance due to abuse by players. Probably I was not clear enough on what I was intending.
The way I handle these contacts is by intimidating the player.
For example:
My team has for a high-powered contact a Vampire of conciderable power in the shadow community (I don't like using publiced bigshots. They are too well known).They can ask and receive help but they are so intimidated by the description and the knowledge of who and what he is, that they never try to abuse his help or frag him over. I usually give an spectacular example of the contacts power (equipment, other contacts he may offer, etc) and then let the players be drifted by their own speculations. In this way the edge is balanced (since they don't expect him to bail them out every time in fear of what he may askin return, but get lots of help at the same time). My moto is let the players fall into the pit of their own misconceptions.
For example:
My team has for a high-powered contact a Vampire of conciderable power in the shadow community (I don't like using publiced bigshots. They are too well known).They can ask and receive help but they are so intimidated by the description and the knowledge of who and what he is, that they never try to abuse his help or frag him over. I usually give an spectacular example of the contacts power (equipment, other contacts he may offer, etc) and then let the players be drifted by their own speculations. In this way the edge is balanced (since they don't expect him to bail them out every time in fear of what he may askin return, but get lots of help at the same time). My moto is let the players fall into the pit of their own misconceptions.
Now that signature, in the context of this thread, is just scary
Shall we agree that edges are meant to be edges, flaws flaws, and that the contact-neutralising measures suggested earlier are specifically intended for use where a high-powered contact is starting to be abused (and thus game unbalancing)? As one example of such possible abuse, it was not all that long ago when it was proposed on this board that a magician buddy would cast and remove spells upon the PC at the PC's whim, each and every run.
Shall we agree that edges are meant to be edges, flaws flaws, and that the contact-neutralising measures suggested earlier are specifically intended for use where a high-powered contact is starting to be abused (and thus game unbalancing)? As one example of such possible abuse, it was not all that long ago when it was proposed on this board that a magician buddy would cast and remove spells upon the PC at the PC's whim, each and every run.
| QUOTE |
| As one example of such possible abuse, it was not all that long ago when it was proposed on this board that a magician buddy would cast and remove spells upon the PC at the PC's whim, each and every run. Yeah and risk having his astral signature seen wherever the PC goes!!! It is the same reason why no magician worth his shadow name will cast a quickened spell or give a focus to ANYONE out of his team and even to them is a bit iffy. |
Now that signature, in the context of this thread, is just scary
thank you very much!
thank you very much!
| QUOTE |
| Shall we agree that edges are meant to be edges, flaws flaws, and that the contact-neutralising measures suggested earlier are specifically intended for use where a high-powered contact is starting to be abused (and thus game unbalancing)? As one example of such possible abuse, it was not all that long ago when it was proposed on this board that a magician buddy would cast and remove spells upon the PC at the PC's whim, each and every run. |
Absolutely.
The thing that's funny is, this is covered in the Edge description:
| QUOTE |
| From time to time, such contacts can provide considerable help to a character ... A character that abuses his or her high-ranking contact's trust can quickly lose this Edge, however. |
If someone wants a magician buddy to cast spells on the PC whenever, then the GM should smack them for trying to get the benefits of having two characters when they're only allowed one. Said munchkin should either pay 100,000¥ for a FFL at chargen like anyone else and expect to give that contact a LOT of money for their services, or persuade a toady (in RL mind you) to join the group as a mage.
That sort of abuse of the 2-point edge smacks of serious immaturity on the level of the players and serious lack of cajones for a GM that didn't nip it in the bud the first time the munchkin tried to abuse it.
personally, and by this i mean 
non-canon 
, i only allow non-metaplot-centric NPCs as contacts in Friends in High Places. A VP in a AAA, ok. The White House chief of staff, ok. SAC of the local FBI office, ok. Prince Rex (of Tir Tairngire), ok.
Harle, nope. But as a gameplayed contact, yes. (Harlequin and H's back)
Lowfyr, same as above. (SotF)
Hestaby, same as above. (SotF)
Buttercup, same as above. (SotF)
non-canon , i only allow non-metaplot-centric NPCs as contacts in Friends in High Places. A VP in a AAA, ok. The White House chief of staff, ok. SAC of the local FBI office, ok. Prince Rex (of Tir Tairngire), ok.Harle, nope. But as a gameplayed contact, yes. (Harlequin and H's back)
Lowfyr, same as above. (SotF)
Hestaby, same as above. (SotF)
Buttercup, same as above. (SotF)
schnee, the example was given in a min-maxing thread indirectly discussing the relevant value of CH.
By "metaplot", toturi, I'm assuming you mean FASA/Wizkids creations only? I'm asking because I've seen two different ways of seeing the word used, the other referring to the GM's own overarching campaign plot. In any case: how can you know which NPCs end up game-centric and which won't?
A general question: contacts themselves have contacts, and some of those could end up high-powered as well. Given plenty of real life examples to compare against, I see no particular reason the contact of my contact should necessarily "click" with me to the point of Friendly or even Neutral interaction. Do you always play it as a friend of friend - or do such second-hand contacts sometimes just not hit it off, or even become enemies?
By "metaplot", toturi, I'm assuming you mean FASA/Wizkids creations only? I'm asking because I've seen two different ways of seeing the word used, the other referring to the GM's own overarching campaign plot. In any case: how can you know which NPCs end up game-centric and which won't?
A general question: contacts themselves have contacts, and some of those could end up high-powered as well. Given plenty of real life examples to compare against, I see no particular reason the contact of my contact should necessarily "click" with me to the point of Friendly or even Neutral interaction. Do you always play it as a friend of friend - or do such second-hand contacts sometimes just not hit it off, or even become enemies?
In my game I simply rule:
* Level 2 and Level 3 contacts can only be gotten through role-playing, never character creation (unless agreed by me the GM).
* The higher the level of the contact, the more "money" has little ability to motivate them. (They would only value information, tasks, etc.)
* A very influential contact (Say Loftwyr, Damion Knight, Nadja Daviar, etc) would be more of a burden then a prize.. They would consider most runners to be their tools, rather then someone they owe anything. They would require a LOT of maintenance otherwise they would quickly become disinterested in the player. They also can require certain "loyalty" measures (the player may be required to supply a ritual sample of their body).
(Example, Player "A" calls his contact "Damion Knight" about getting an Ares Combat Rifle. Player "A" would not have a direct number for Damion.. instead he would probably be calling a secretary. After he made the contact for Damion to "Call him back when he got a chance." It would probably take 1d6 days for Damion to feel like calling Player "A" back... When he did, I would role-play it out. Damion might be willing to get him a rifle (an easy task for Damion), but would have a task for the player to do.)
As a GM, it is always good to find the best in any situation.
* Level 2 and Level 3 contacts can only be gotten through role-playing, never character creation (unless agreed by me the GM).
* The higher the level of the contact, the more "money" has little ability to motivate them. (They would only value information, tasks, etc.)
* A very influential contact (Say Loftwyr, Damion Knight, Nadja Daviar, etc) would be more of a burden then a prize.. They would consider most runners to be their tools, rather then someone they owe anything. They would require a LOT of maintenance otherwise they would quickly become disinterested in the player. They also can require certain "loyalty" measures (the player may be required to supply a ritual sample of their body).
(Example, Player "A" calls his contact "Damion Knight" about getting an Ares Combat Rifle. Player "A" would not have a direct number for Damion.. instead he would probably be calling a secretary. After he made the contact for Damion to "Call him back when he got a chance." It would probably take 1d6 days for Damion to feel like calling Player "A" back... When he did, I would role-play it out. Damion might be willing to get him a rifle (an easy task for Damion), but would have a task for the player to do.)
As a GM, it is always good to find the best in any situation.
*Bump the first*
We've used high levele contacts becasue freaquently it goes both ways, sure they can provide just the umph for a hard run, but they can call in favors too and you don't want to po a high level contact who can become a high level enemy. Usual the called favors were low pay but at least we knew the johnson wasn't setting us up.
I agree that you it is fine for players to have high level contacts as long as they think there is a large price to pay for doing so. This can be done by making them scarred crazy of the contact or by simply insuring that the contact always wants to meet in a secure government courthouse with no help getting security, or the contact simply has an ineffective secretary. On a connected note have you ever had anyone go for a ridiculous number of contacts? Resources A, and like 80 contacts. I think in our game it was only like 30 contacts, but it was the most aggravating thing in the world to play with, at least that I've seen so far.
Everything in Shadowrun operates on a checks-and-balances system, and edges like Friends in High Places would be no exception to this.
Remember the extreme deviousness of anyone in high positions of power within a corp, or government. These people didn't get there by being used, and are well versed in dealing with other power hungry individuals on a daily basis. However, these contacts can be very useful and full of information if your working to forward their agenda (or atleast, if they think you are). However, given the nature and power of these individuals, if you become harmful in the slightest to them, especially if it begins to effect the all-mighty bottom line (for a corper) or policitcal power base (for a government type), then the contact will quickly become a liability.
The large advtange, and the reason why its a 2 pt edge, is because at times the help of these high level people can be extremely beneficial, but ONLY if they wish it to be. Thats why it's a 2 pt edge, and not a 5 or 6 point one.
Now, I don't point this out in a effort to encourage others to screw over the runners with this; no one out there needs anyones help for that, it comes natural to most. It's the same principal as the sam who goes out and gets himself a panther cannon; they're powerful, they're big, but only useful in certain situations, and might bring more harm then good if used improperly.
So yes, I would allow a player to take the edge, but they should select the edge only if its appopriate to they're character. They really should be aware that it truly is the proverbial double-edged sword.
Remember the extreme deviousness of anyone in high positions of power within a corp, or government. These people didn't get there by being used, and are well versed in dealing with other power hungry individuals on a daily basis. However, these contacts can be very useful and full of information if your working to forward their agenda (or atleast, if they think you are). However, given the nature and power of these individuals, if you become harmful in the slightest to them, especially if it begins to effect the all-mighty bottom line (for a corper) or policitcal power base (for a government type), then the contact will quickly become a liability.
The large advtange, and the reason why its a 2 pt edge, is because at times the help of these high level people can be extremely beneficial, but ONLY if they wish it to be. Thats why it's a 2 pt edge, and not a 5 or 6 point one.
Now, I don't point this out in a effort to encourage others to screw over the runners with this; no one out there needs anyones help for that, it comes natural to most. It's the same principal as the sam who goes out and gets himself a panther cannon; they're powerful, they're big, but only useful in certain situations, and might bring more harm then good if used improperly.
So yes, I would allow a player to take the edge, but they should select the edge only if its appopriate to they're character. They really should be aware that it truly is the proverbial double-edged sword.
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