Usually I try for new and interesting questions, but this time I'm asking for a hit with a clue stick, having never played SR before SR4. Frank T. et alia, if you can speak to game designer's intent, then please do; of course, if you think they missed a better alternative, then I wouldn't be surprised to hear you say so.
If you Summon a spirit, and get several services, then Bind it, do the services left from the Summoning carry over, or do they vanish when you start the binding attempt? Previous thread indiates so, and encourages Binding when you happen to get lotsa services on Summoning (eg summoner rolls all hits and spirit rolls all misses). If you're working with low-Force spirits and can take the Drain and have the time, could you Summon a spirit, if you get few services let it go, Summon again, repeat until you get lots of services, then bind? Some mages might well decide to spend a day on this process to get a bound spirit with max services, although others might rather spend money on rebinding materials. Eg a hard-maxed chargen conjuror, with Magic 6, Summoning 6, +2 Specialization, +2 Mentor bonus, +3 Focus, could eventually get a Force 6 spirit of her favored type summoned with 19 services, and then bind it. The odds in any given summoning attempt are (1/3^19) x ((2/3)^5), so it may take several tries at 5 hours each, for a high value of "several". More realistically, she could hold out for 8 services on a Force 2 spirit before binding. That's a fairly good use of ¥1K in binding materials, and possibly some Edge. NB example assumes summoning specialization stacking with mentor, eg Mentor: Wolf plus Summon (Beast Spirits).
If you get zero net hits in the Binding contest, the spirit is not bound; does it go uncontrolled as per BBB p. 178, same as if the caster passes out from Drain? (which any mage could prevent with a stim patch, by the way, as long as Force=<Magic) Or does it remain in its previous summoned status with services pending? Or something else? What happens to the materials; are they consumed in every attempt, or only consumed when a spirit is bound?
When a spirit is Banished to 0 service, there's a moment in which any mage in LOS can Summon it; but why would you? What's the advantage of doing so, over Summoning a new spirit fresh from the astral talent pool? The differences that occur to me are that a) the banished spirit may have taken S or P damage, and b) the summoner doesn't get to pick the powers. Neither of which is an advantage. The one exception I can think of, is the opportunity to gain services from a Spirit of Man with the optional power of a spell which the original summoner knows - and which you don't know. In which case, a mage with an obscure spell might *sell* the opportunity to banish and take over Man spirits with that spell. "Welcome to Loch Ness. Would you like me to Summon a Spirit of Man with the Detect Nessie spell, so that you can banish and take it?"
Trying to think of an obscure spell led me to the potentially-unique Detect (Object) and Detect (Life Form). Would you allow Detect Holy Grail? (yeah, I know, that's just *asking* for someone to fire an orbital Derail Gun. Have fun, *after* the first questions get answered. I already logged Detect Self, and Detect Self with Extended Area, on the silly spell thread.)
Full Version: conjuring questions
If you Summon a spirit, and get several services, then Bind it, do the services left from the Summoning carry over, or do they vanish when you start the binding attempt?
They carry over. As you can usually Summon without drain, resummon if you did not get satisfactory net hits. You simply won´t get many on Binding. So yes on the consequences. Take note that Summoning can have quite deadly drain due to hits*2, the spirit re-rolls, too. And might get annoyed and use edge (GM hint).
If you get zero net hits in the Binding contest, the spirit is not bound; does it go uncontrolled as per BBB p. 178, same as if the caster passes out from Drain? (which any mage could prevent with a stim patch, by the way, as long as Force=<Magic) Or does it remain in its previous summoned status with services pending? Or something else? What happens to the materials; are they consumed in every attempt, or only consumed when a spirit is bound?
Materials are consumed, spirit remains in its previous state, most of the available time will have passed.
When a spirit is Banished to 0 service, there's a moment in which any mage in LOS can Summon it; but why would you?
What kind of spirits can you summon? I guess not all of them. Found any limits on the kind of spirits you can take over? Besides, spirits are intelligent entities with memory. And might be quite willing to betray their previous master.
Trying to think of an obscure spell led me to the potentially-unique Detect (Object) and Detect (Life Form). Would you allow Detect Holy Grail?
Yes, I would. Yes, it would increase the chance of me having a Holy Grail in SR4. Yes, the mage would likely not even cast the spell while the Holy Grail is in range, because the spell would have been taken for sillyness only. (And yes, after the run I would tell the player).
They carry over. As you can usually Summon without drain, resummon if you did not get satisfactory net hits. You simply won´t get many on Binding. So yes on the consequences. Take note that Summoning can have quite deadly drain due to hits*2, the spirit re-rolls, too. And might get annoyed and use edge (GM hint).
If you get zero net hits in the Binding contest, the spirit is not bound; does it go uncontrolled as per BBB p. 178, same as if the caster passes out from Drain? (which any mage could prevent with a stim patch, by the way, as long as Force=<Magic) Or does it remain in its previous summoned status with services pending? Or something else? What happens to the materials; are they consumed in every attempt, or only consumed when a spirit is bound?
Materials are consumed, spirit remains in its previous state, most of the available time will have passed.
When a spirit is Banished to 0 service, there's a moment in which any mage in LOS can Summon it; but why would you?
What kind of spirits can you summon? I guess not all of them. Found any limits on the kind of spirits you can take over? Besides, spirits are intelligent entities with memory. And might be quite willing to betray their previous master.
Trying to think of an obscure spell led me to the potentially-unique Detect (Object) and Detect (Life Form). Would you allow Detect Holy Grail?
Yes, I would. Yes, it would increase the chance of me having a Holy Grail in SR4. Yes, the mage would likely not even cast the spell while the Holy Grail is in range, because the spell would have been taken for sillyness only. (And yes, after the run I would tell the player).
Hmmmm
I wouldnt let people dismiss spirits and let them keep services owed. Maybe I will change my mind once I read the spirit section of street magic and about true names and that kind of thing. But right now when you dismiss a spirit you are giving up on the remaining services. The spirit sure as hell isnt going to feel indebted to you for making it your bitch.
I did like very much the though of loyalty factor with spirits just like contacts. The loyalty number could either be used to reduce the spirits resist pool for summoning allowing it to glitch more often or atleast get less hits or to increase your summoning/binding pool or resist drain. If you let the spirit go especially with services remaining it may start to like you but if you get it "killed" it will become hostile towards you and the loyalty might reach a max of -6.
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Your innate spell theory...Thats pushing it i think. When the mage summons a spirit he can give it a spell HE knows. Its more like the spirit has the ability to use one of your spells. Im not down with have dude x summon a man spirit with detect nessie and then you banishing and resummoning it and getting to keep the spell. It would be FAR MORE LIKELY that the dude would just loan you the spirit's services.
I can see a ton of circumstances where people/organizations would loan a spirit to a shadow team to go do some objective with it instead of letting you "kill" it or banish it and then take control of it yourselves with some uber spell attached to it.
Guess you wouldnt like my GM style hehe.
I wouldnt let people dismiss spirits and let them keep services owed. Maybe I will change my mind once I read the spirit section of street magic and about true names and that kind of thing. But right now when you dismiss a spirit you are giving up on the remaining services. The spirit sure as hell isnt going to feel indebted to you for making it your bitch.
I did like very much the though of loyalty factor with spirits just like contacts. The loyalty number could either be used to reduce the spirits resist pool for summoning allowing it to glitch more often or atleast get less hits or to increase your summoning/binding pool or resist drain. If you let the spirit go especially with services remaining it may start to like you but if you get it "killed" it will become hostile towards you and the loyalty might reach a max of -6.
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Your innate spell theory...Thats pushing it i think. When the mage summons a spirit he can give it a spell HE knows. Its more like the spirit has the ability to use one of your spells. Im not down with have dude x summon a man spirit with detect nessie and then you banishing and resummoning it and getting to keep the spell. It would be FAR MORE LIKELY that the dude would just loan you the spirit's services.
I can see a ton of circumstances where people/organizations would loan a spirit to a shadow team to go do some objective with it instead of letting you "kill" it or banish it and then take control of it yourselves with some uber spell attached to it.
Guess you wouldnt like my GM style hehe.
Each re-summoning is a fresh start concerning services. I think that was clear, but better safe than sorry. Only re-binding adds services.
| QUOTE |
| If you Summon a spirit, and get several services, then Bind it, do the services left from the Summoning carry over, or do they vanish when you start the binding attempt? |
The services from the initial summoning carry over. If you get additional net hits on the Binding test, that adds to the services owed, but in most cases you'll get most of your services from the initial summoning. This can occassionally lead to magicians summoning up a spirit to do something minor during downtime and then stopping everything because they need to go do a binding ritual. And that's fine.
| QUOTE |
| If you're working with low-Force spirits and can take the Drain and have the time, could you Summon a spirit, if you get few services let it go, Summon again, repeat until you get lots of services, then bind? |
Yes. Indeed you should probably do this regardless of what Force you are after.
| QUOTE |
| Eg a hard-maxed chargen conjuror, with Magic 6, Summoning 6, +2 Specialization, +2 Mentor bonus, +3 Focus, could eventually get a Force 6 spirit of her favored type summoned with 19 services, and then bind it. The odds in any given summoning attempt are (1/3^19) x ((2/3)^5), so it may take several tries at 5 hours each, for a high value of "several". |
Remember that the character only takes 3 seconds to summon a spirit. So summoning and resummoning takes seconds, not hours. The binding takes 6 hours whether it succeeds or fails. So you'll want to succeed. Also recall that such a spirit can hand out up to 12 drain on the summoning and it goes on a Rampage if you pass out from drain. And in any case, having drain when you go into the binding ritual is bad, so you want to have sufficiently little drain from all your summoning and resummoning that you can take a nap and then get your 6 hour binding ritual in before the spirit vanishes with the setting of the sun.
| QUOTE |
| If you get zero net hits in the Binding contest, the spirit is not bound; does it go uncontrolled as per BBB p. 178, same as if the caster passes out from Drain? |
No. If you have enough time before the sun next rises or sets, you can even try again with new materials.
| QUOTE |
| which any mage could prevent with a stim patch, by the way, as long as Force=<Magic |
Passing out is not a Wound Modifier, it's a separate effect where you pass out. So Stimulant Patches don't actually keep you from passing out from drain and having your Fire Spirit go on a Rampage. Pain Editors do though, because they are so awesome that they are worth not having a Trauma Damper, despite how amazingly awesome those are.
| QUOTE |
| When a spirit is Banished to 0 service, there's a moment in which any mage in LOS can Summon it; but why would you? |
- The spirit personally knows something you want it to tell you (on account of having participated in some event under the orders of its previous conjurer).
- The spirit is from a tradition that you aren't a member of and therefore can't summon (such as a possession spirit or a guidance spirit for a Hermetic).
- You want to take advantage of power sites aspected to your tradition by conducting rebinding of spirits that are not associated with your tradition there so that you get the bonus and they get the penalty.
But yeah, it's a pretty marginal use. A lot of magicians don't ever get Banishing because they have no intention of trying to catch them all. And I don't blame them. It's hard enough trying to get all five of your spirits bound, trying to get selected pieces of awesome from other traditions is just really complicated.
-Frank
Wait Frank....
-Your saing you can summon a Force X spirit and get 3 services and then dismiss it.
-Then summon that spirit again and get 5 services and then dismiss it.
-Then summon it one more time and get 4 services only this time bind it and have a total of 12 services + whatever net hits you score off binding it ?
-Your saing you can summon a Force X spirit and get 3 services and then dismiss it.
-Then summon that spirit again and get 5 services and then dismiss it.
-Then summon it one more time and get 4 services only this time bind it and have a total of 12 services + whatever net hits you score off binding it ?
No. Excuse me, NO!
You can summon a spirit over and over again, but if you dismiss it, the services are gone. See my second post. You can summon again, new roll = new luck. But the services from summoning can not add up. The only possible way to increase services of a bound spirit is re-binding. But the drain code on that one ain´t funny.
You can summon a spirit over and over again, but if you dismiss it, the services are gone. See my second post. You can summon again, new roll = new luck. But the services from summoning can not add up. The only possible way to increase services of a bound spirit is re-binding. But the drain code on that one ain´t funny.
Whoah. A shaman could use Summoning on a fire spirit that had been previously summoned by a hermetic, if the shaman had LOS to a just-banished fire spirit?
I had assumed that a tradition could only and ever use Summoning on their five categories (and same for other traditions) and thus a shaman would be unable to Summon a fire spirit even if was sitting there saying "I dare you to Summon me!" in its post-banishing moment.
Thanks for the answers including the corrections eg Summon is only 3 sec and thus easy to try over and over... again, as long as you can handle the Drain. But hey, a dose of Zen lasts at least ten minutes and gives you one extra Resist Drain die, and some find it also a nice way to start the day.
Abbadon: yes, if you summon a spirit, and it says "Sorry, I can only do two services for you, I have a date coming up" (or other fluff expression of a dice roll that favored the spirit), and you say "Never mind, just take the day off", then yes, you lose those two (or N) services. Next time you summon, you're starting from scratch, possibly with a different spirit (though functionally equivalent) answering the call. Whether the summoned-and-released spirit is indignant at being bothered for nothing, or grateful to be let off the hook, I leave as a storytelling decision.
I had assumed that a tradition could only and ever use Summoning on their five categories (and same for other traditions) and thus a shaman would be unable to Summon a fire spirit even if was sitting there saying "I dare you to Summon me!" in its post-banishing moment.
Thanks for the answers including the corrections eg Summon is only 3 sec and thus easy to try over and over... again, as long as you can handle the Drain. But hey, a dose of Zen lasts at least ten minutes and gives you one extra Resist Drain die, and some find it also a nice way to start the day.
Abbadon: yes, if you summon a spirit, and it says "Sorry, I can only do two services for you, I have a date coming up" (or other fluff expression of a dice roll that favored the spirit), and you say "Never mind, just take the day off", then yes, you lose those two (or N) services. Next time you summon, you're starting from scratch, possibly with a different spirit (though functionally equivalent) answering the call. Whether the summoned-and-released spirit is indignant at being bothered for nothing, or grateful to be let off the hook, I leave as a storytelling decision.
| QUOTE |
| Whether the summoned-and-released spirit is indignant at being bothered for nothing, or grateful to be let off the hook, I leave as a storytelling decision. |
Constant re-rolling can anger the whole universe (or so my players claim
, but you should by all means summon another spirit if your net hits are below average. What Frank said actually works pretty well; if you use summoned spirits for everyday activities, you will happen to roll well by chance, and there will often be enough time to bind the spirit.
Ok I guess I was just reading into the question to much. The way everyone kept wording the question and answer about summon,dispel, summon sounded like the topic creator wanted to build up services over multiple summons. And then Frank's answer made it sound like he said yes.
But I see whatever everyone means now. I knew you couldnt build up services like that. It just looked like everyone was saying you could hehe.
But I see whatever everyone means now. I knew you couldnt build up services like that. It just looked like everyone was saying you could hehe.
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