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Abbandon
Theres a couple of things I dont like about gathering and refining magical reagents to make stuff with. First off it seems like finding and gathering reagents takes waaay to long. If it was that painstaking it would NOT be possable to have magic shops all over the place selling tons of magic materials. The prices would be astronomically high on everything. There would be wars being waged over places where reagents can grow.

Another thing that I hate is the fact that reagents have to grow in the wild so you cant mass produce them and I understand the concept that it came from the earth and so it is imbued with a little bit of earth's mana but......I think its total bullcrap. People can grow bigger and stronger plants unnaturally not to mention more of them with agriculture and whats the difference? They still grow, they still get fed.

Take diamonds for example to. Now we can just make some gemstones including diamonds that are indistinguishable from the crap that formed in the earth naturally. I dont see why the chemical process that makes a diamon in the earth is any different than one that makes one in a lab.

It makes more sense to me that there are people who go hunt down plants, and paranormal animals and crap and capture or colect them alive so they can be brought back and raised and reproduced.

Would a clone of a mage be totally mundane because he was made artificially even though he has his own personality and stuff? Thats kind of a good argument why bioware reduces essense in a mage just like cyber.

I just really dont like that fact that to make anything manually it would take months and months for each little thing you wanted to make. Also how long it takes to refine the crap you do find which takes yet more months. Your looking at getting maybe 1-4 magical items made a year.

I think if the timeframe would have gotten downgraded one notch to where Months become days, days become hours then it would have been much more realistic. It should take 28 hours to refine a reagent, checking up on it every 4 or 8 hours I forget. It should only takes days to find reagents. Months if your looking for radical or those 4 uber radicals i forget what they are called.

What do you guys think about the time frames for that stuff??
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I haven't finished street magic yet but anchoring spells/anchoring foci looked interesting and turning a paracritter into a vessel for a spirit is also extremely awesome. I guess also scary, imagine running into a hellhound on your next run and your troll steps and is like "dont worry i got this" and yanks out an assault rifle. Only this hellhound has been possessed and has hardened armor and a host of other powers like movement and is instantly in the trolls face and tearing the crap out of him much to the shock and horror of the troll.

Having your own possesed animal sounds wicked though. Mages have always had pet animals but there have always been those ninja who have had pet animals to like shinobi and his wolf. A hell hound with hardened armor and a physical armor spell cast on him by his mage would be a freaking tank.

Hmmm like i said i havent finished. If you make a vessel and have a spirit possess something does it still only have a certain amount of services?? Is there some addiction/willpower test it has to make to leave the vessel?

Im starting the spirit section next so... Its all pretty complicated to me so im only reading sections at a time.
Fortune
I think the rules are fine just the way they are, as far as Reagents and the like are concerned.
knasser
Way ahead of you on the ally spirit Check out "Crucible" in this. Note that you want Inhabiting for your ally spirit rather than Possession (probably). Of particular note is that the beast has the Ram (door) spell for added PC Scaring. biggrin.gif

As regards the rules for gathering reagents, you have a different world view than what is officially presented. Which is fine if you want to swap things round so that big corps mass-produce reagents. But in terms of balance, the Street Magic stuff works okay. Say you want to make a force three sustaining focus. That's 30,000:nuyen: to buy. An enchanter can take varying degrees of effort to maximise profit, e.g. purchase a formula or craft one's own. If for the sake of argument the crafter wants to make maximum money, you're looking at the following:

A professional enchanter of middling talent (Arcana 3, Enchanting 3, Magic 2) will take about 5 days to prepare the formula.

Next, the enchantment itself has to be done and with a dice pool of 5 and a focus force of 3, the enchanter is going to need about a +4 or +5 to the dice pool to be reasonably certain that she can pull of the threshold 17 extended test. That can come from a range of options, such as a couple of units of orichalcum or exotic telesma, etc. As we're interested in doing everything in house for the sake of assessing whether the enchanting rules are realistic, we'll assume Virgin Telesma and a few radical reagents. What would be required for making the virgin telesma is going to be down to the tradition involved, GM-fiat, etc. Examples given are things like flint knives, bird skull amulets, etc, so I'm happy to lay down a couple of days work tops for this.

We're now up to 7 days work plus about eight or nine days for the actual enchanting. So it's two weeks work plus whatever we determine gathering and refining the reagents will take.

We need three units of three different reagent types. If we assume a similar level of competency with locating and gathering reagents, we're looking at about ten days to locate nine units of raw reagent, about five days to refine them all and then a few months to further transform them into radical reagents.

Thus doing everything in house will take about three and a half months work to produce a 30,000 nuyen.gif worth sustaining focus. Middle lifestyle cost is 5,000:nuyen: per month. High is 10,000. Thus our talismonger is making a pleasant living at this work which sounds right for a mage with low to average ability.

This isn't the way things would normally be played however. The fluff implies, but the rules don't require, that a person gathering reagents needs to be magically active. You could even make good use of Task spirits for this work. So if reagents start off being sold at 50:nuyen: plus, then I think it's reasonable that a skilled gatherer is getting paid 30:nuyen: a day for getting these items. Any messing with this is going to have an impact on the economics of the rest of the chain and could make it way to cheap and quick for PC mages to churn out foci and make large amounts of money, upsetting the game balance.
Abbandon
Even in your example you just gave though 1 average level foci took 3 months to make, how do explain walking into to just about any magic shop and finding lots and lots of foci and materials for magical use ? And there being shops like that all over the country and the world. Do you really think there would be that many places "untouched" by humans? We are deforesting the planet and are exploring above and below the north/south poles of our planet humans are everywhere.

Anyways im interested in hearing other opinions.
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The spirit section was pretty nice but i have a one or two questions.

Ok I have a pencil that I have enchanted as a vessel. I summon a spirit and it inhabits the pencil and it results in a true form spirit. The pencil explodes and turns to ash instantly. Now what does the spirit look like?? I guess the spirit would instantly go back to the astral plane and look like...a pencil? a archetypical magic tradion spirit type form like a humanoid shape (hermetic), a bird or turtle(shaman)?? It is unable to do anything on the physical plane until it inhabits another vessel?

A follow up to true form spirits. Street Magic said that an Ally spirit that does a true form inhabitation destroys the telesma but also retains that shape. Retains it where? It can materialize? So it would looks like whatever the telesma was in the astral? What about when it inhabits another telesma? I dont remember if you even roll another inhabitation test when an inhabit spirit goes into a new object...

I forget the title of the novel but obviously this is what that mage in the one novel did to get an ally spirit who could turn into a motorcycle. They said a "possessed" vehichle wouldnt boost its handling attribute. Would a possesed motorcycle even be able to drive itself or would it just fall over? Do any spirits have a power they could use to keep it upright ??


Street magic said an ally spirit can only take materialization or inhabitation, what about possesion? Why would it not be allowed?
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Some parts of street magic are really good but I really hate other parts like the descriptions of the new types of spirits and of other traditions. The descrption of task spirits is one freaking sentence. And again just like in the core book they only give examples for like half the stuff.

Shadow Cloak is a stupid power. And how come plant spirits dont have some kind of regenerative power. I also dont like how only some spirits are capable of using magic. Or how certain traditions can only summon certain types of spirits. Shamans are totally clueless to plant spirits? Dont have a freaking clue how to summon ancestrial guide spirits?
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Im still not finished. Oh I didnt understand very well why a spirit and a human would enter into a pact and why they couldnt just go there seperate ways whenever they wanted. The book says that they almost never end unless one of the individuals involves dies.


Ancient History
QUOTE
Theres a couple of things I dont like about gathering and refining magical reagents to make stuff with. First off it seems like finding and gathering reagents takes waaay to long. If it was that painstaking it would NOT be possable to have magic shops all over the place selling tons of magic materials. The prices would be astronomically high on everything. There would be wars being waged over places where reagents can grow.

Ah, magical economics. The short answer is that the megacorps that control the reagent supply have their own methods, involving hundreds of low-paid hand laborers and very rich tracts that they do compete for the rights over.

QUOTE

Another thing that I hate is the fact that reagents have to grow in the wild so you cant mass produce them and I understand the concept that it came from the earth and so it is imbued with a little bit of earth's mana but......I think its total bullcrap. People can grow bigger and stronger plants unnaturally not to mention more of them with agriculture and whats the difference? They still grow, they still get fed.

And undoubtedly people have been working on that, but so far no dice. The distinction isn't that a particular plant is bigger than any other, but the concentration of mana is higher, and the process that turns a mundane bit of rock into a reagent takes place in a natural setting instead of an artificially managed one. Chemically speaking, a mundane item and a reagent might be identical, but that's just the material form; it's the process that matters.

QUOTE

It makes more sense to me that there are people who go hunt down plants, and paranormal animals and crap and capture or colect them alive so they can be brought back and raised and reproduced.

A paracritter born and raised in captivity might provide material for an exotic telesma, but they're unlikely to produce an animal reagent.

QUOTE
Would a clone of a mage be totally mundane because he was made artificially even though he has his own personality and stuff?

Magic and genetics are weird beasts, so check out Augmentation for more on that.

QUOTE
The fluff implies, but the rules don't require, that a person gathering reagents needs to be magically active.

Didn't mean to imply. Mundanes have always been able to gather materials; they just can't enchant.

QUOTE
Do you really think there would be that many places "untouched" by humans? We are deforesting the planet and are exploring above and below the north/south poles of our planet humans are everywhere.

And the rarity of these places is part of the reason foci cost so much.

QUOTE

I forget the title of the novel but obviously this is what that mage in the one novel did to get an ally spirit who could turn into a motorcycle. They said a "possessed" vehichle wouldnt boost its handling attribute. Would a possesed motorcycle even be able to drive itself or would it just fall over? Do any spirits have a power they could use to keep it upright ??

In that specific case-you're talking about the Talon novels, by the way, Crossroads, Ragnorock[i] and all that-the ally spirit wasn't possessing the vehicle, one of it's material forms [i]was a vehicle. It's the equivalent of an ally spirit in the form of a horse, or a surfboard, or a guy that likes to give piggybacks.

QUOTE
Ok I have a pencil that I have enchanted as a vessel. I summon a spirit and it inhabits the pencil and it results in a true form spirit. The pencil explodes and turns to ash instantly. Now what does the spirit look like?? I guess the spirit would instantly go back to the astral plane and look like...a pencil? a archetypical magic tradion spirit type form like a humanoid shape (hermetic), a bird or turtle(shaman)?? It is unable to do anything on the physical plane until it inhabits another vessel?

If you're looking at Inhabitation, check out p.100. A "true form" merge would destroy the vessel, grant the spirit Astral Form and Materialization, and the spirit would not bear any resemblance to the vessel. A true form insect spirit that emerges from a cat, for example, would resemble a massive insect of its type, not a cat.

QUOTE

A follow up to true form spirits. Street Magic said that an Ally spirit that does a true form inhabitation destroys the telesma but also retains that shape. Retains it where? It can materialize? So it would looks like whatever the telesma was in the astral? What about when it inhabits another telesma? I dont remember if you even roll another inhabitation test when an inhabit spirit goes into a new object...

As above, but in this case if your ally rolled true form when inhabiting the cat, the cat would die but the ally spirit would gain Astral Form and Materialization and would look like the cat.
Karaden
QUOTE (Abbandon)
Even in your example you just gave though 1 average level foci took 3 months to make, how do explain walking into to just about any magic shop and finding lots and lots of foci and materials for magical use ? And there being shops like that all over the country and the world. Do you really think there would be that many places "untouched" by humans? We are deforesting the planet and are exploring above and below the north/south poles of our planet humans are everywhere.

Well, maybe your SR games are different, there are several things about that. 1: Talismongers arn't that common, they arn't like a stuffer shack, where there is one on every corner. 2. Who said that each and every Talismonger has several of each foci avalable on hand at all times? This is what avalability is for. I think if you actually go through the avalibility rules to buy a talisman it would require a few months, or several weeks at least, to aquire one.

As for there being 'untouched' areas. I would imagine that since the rise of magic there have been many movements to help protect or create such areas. Also keep in mind that deforistation isn't really needed any more. With nanites and geneticly engineered plants that can grow in the artic, there is little need to go into these areas. Also keep in mind that, what, 40% of the population of the earth died out? And that population never really recovered.

Overall, I don't find it so hard to imagine there are places that are untouched, at least in recent years.

Another thing to keep in mind is that while it did take 3 months to make that single foci, you also have to keep in mind that two and half of those months where a process that can have multipul itterations running at once. In other words, it takes about 14 days per talisman that can only be spent doing that, but it takes 75 days that only require minimul effort on the creators part, meaning he could be out gathering more stuff, working on other talismans, refining even more matierals, etc. So even though the expanded time to create a single talisman is 3 months, the time to create large numbers of talismans is 15 days (or whatever) per talisman. And that number is decreased even more once the monger has developed all the plans he needs. This can explain for your 'monty haul' style magic shops.
Demonseed Elite
There are numerous cases in Shadowrun where powers have fought viciously to return the land to its natural state. Amazonia is a good example. Tibet, which is completely encircled by a magical storm, is another. Also the Yakut. Don't believe the hype, this isn't done for purely altruistic reasons.
knasser
Lots to go through:

QUOTE (Abbandon)
Even in your example you just gave though 1 average level foci took 3 months to make,  how do explain walking into to just about any magic shop and finding lots and lots of foci and materials for magical use ?


I don't. I've never pictured Shadowrun as being a world where you walk into Foci-R-Us and pick something up. The focus example I gave has an availability rating of 12R under RAW. That's just on the cusp of being unavailable to starting characters. Hardly a common good. Teh book says:

QUOTE (SR @ pg.301)
Most standard items have no Availability rating, which
means that they can be purchased normally from a retail ven-
dor—either an actual physical location or an online Matrix
store. In this case, the character merely has to pay the listed cost
for the item.


Quite clearly then, a focus of any kind is not something you just walk into a shop and buy. And this is leaving aside the R rating of items as well. I imagine the talismonger's world as being more like a semi-legitimage world of traders.

As to "even the average level foci took 3 months to make" bear in mind that it's worth 30,000 nuyen.gif . A high-level lifestyle is maintained by that. If you make foci easier to produce without reducing the cost, then you're saying that Mr. Magic 2 Enchanter is going to be making a small fortune. Because I also pointed out at the end that I'd done things in the least efficient way. You'd make more money by buying in the reagents from skilled mundane suppliers.

QUOTE (Abbandon)
Ok I have a pencil that I have enchanted as a vessel.  I summon a spirit and it inhabits the pencil and it results in a true form spirit.   The pencil explodes and turns to ash instantly.  Now what does the spirit look like??  I guess the spirit would instantly go back to the astral plane and look like...a pencil? a archetypical magic tradion spirit type form like a humanoid shape (hermetic), a bird or turtle(shaman)??   It is unable to do anything on the physical plane until it inhabits another vessel


Well, leaving aside the remote possibility of you being stuck with a hybrid-merge pencil as your familiar wink.gif , yes, you'd get some sort of astral pencil spirit for a familar. Stupid mages get stupid magics, I guess.

Note that Allies function differently to normal Inhabiting spirits in this regard, where the true form does not reflect the original host.

You don't really get anything by having your Ally spirit inhabit a vessel just to have it turn out as a True Form. In fact, you come off worse because you need a new vessel if it gets disrupted and you have to go through the inhabitation process again. True forms are basically useful to extra-planar menaces like Insect Spirits, that can thereby escape from Evanescence (the rule, not the band) and hang around permanently on our plane.

QUOTE (Abbandon)
What about when it inhabits another telesma?  I dont remember if you even roll another inhabitation test when an inhabit spirit goes into a new object...


It can't do this. Once it's inhabited something, then it is "inhabiting" whether or not it became a True From or not. The only way to re-inhabit, is to be disrupted and then be provided with a new vessel and go through the process again. If you want something that moves from vessel to vessel, then you have to have a possession based Ally spirit, instead of materialisation. E.g. be a Voodoo mage rather than Shaman.

QUOTE (Abbandon)
I forget the title of the novel but obviously this is what that mage in the one novel did to get an ally spirit who could turn into a motorcycle.  They said a "possessed" vehichle wouldnt boost its handling attribute.   Would a possesed motorcycle even be able to drive itself or would it just fall over?  Do any spirits have a power they could use to keep it upright ??


You forget the name of the novel, most of us just forget the novel. frown.gif It's a moot point in this case as SR2070 motorbikes can already drive themselves. They don't need a rider, just a Pilot attribute which they have. If you have trouble visualising that, just think how easy it would be for a sophisticated AI to keep a moving motorbike upright by small adjustments of wheel angle and direction. Making the kick-stand of a motorbike movable by a tiny motor would be nothing compared to the complexity of the rest of a motorbike, so you can picture it using this to wait at traffic lights, etc.

QUOTE (Abbandon)
Street magic said an ally spirit can only take materialization or inhabitation,  what about possesion?  Why would it not be allowed?


It's not just allowed, it's mandated. Followers of a possession tradition replace Materialisation with Possession for any spirit they summon through a normal process (i.e. everything but Free Spirits, which is not really the same sort of summoning).

QUOTE (Abbandon)
And how come plant spirits dont have some kind of regenerative power.


They do, but only in Great Form. I.e. use the Invoking Metamagic to create a more powerful version of the spirit.

QUOTE (Abbandon)
Shadow Cloak is a stupid power.


Well don't use it. But it's nice an creepy, at least, and it's a -4 to perception tests in the right circumstance.

QUOTE (Abbandon)
I also dont like how only some spirits are capable of using magic.  Or how certain traditions can only summon certain types of spirits.  Shamans are totally clueless to plant spirits?   Dont have a freaking clue how to summon ancestrial guide spirits?


Well you could change that if you like. Magicians will become more powerful however, and I really don't think you want all summoned spirits to have the Magician quality. Would be lethally exploitable.

QUOTE (Abbandon)
Oh I didnt understand very well why a spirit and a human would enter into a pact and why they couldnt just go there seperate ways whenever they wanted.  The book says that they almost never end unless one of the individuals involves dies.


Depends on the type of pact. It's nice for spirits to be able to offer some sort of mystical deal with mortals. Life pact is especially great. Hyzmarca created an example whereby an evil spirit invested its life in an sweet and innocent little girl, posing the PC's a nasty dilemma. Lots you can do with Spirit Pacts.
Stahlseele
the mage with the bike was talon, and the bike was not possessed but one of the optional forms he gave his ally . . the other being a falcon or hawk or something like that . . basically if you give your ally the form of a toaster the ally will be able to toast bread . . if you give your ally the form of a motorcycle the ally gets to play horse with the ass on the back . .
Ryu
To be precise, not one of those was done for altruistic reasons? And wars were fought about the YotC natural orichalcum vains?

You do not walk into a Talismonger shop and buy a focus. You may buy fetishes, ritual materials, spell formulae, books on magic theory and new-age crap. No problem.

If you want to give meaning to a focus, it has to be a unique item. A few thousand nuyen and some karma is not all it takes to make one. It should not feel like "Hey, another +2 bonus dice". It should at the absolute lower end be the arcane stick of HP, with that super-special feather inside. There should be few foci available, all with a GM-defined form, and a players wishes should easily require custom-ordering the focus. Unless the player defined something that is basic iconography for his tradition.


A spirits form does not offer any abilities. It can use the capabilities of a possessed body with its own skills, normal movement not needing skill. So you better hope not to make a true form out of your motorcycle... the spirit could likely carry you (depending on its strength), and maybe even move quite fast, but it would not use anything like vehicle stats.


Plant spirits have regenerative power, like all spirits. One short trip to their home plane...
Tarantula
Oh yeah, not to mention, its MAGIC, it doesn't have to make logical sense.
Buster
True and I would add that in the hippy-tree-hugger philosophy of Shadowrun, "Natural = Good, Man-made = Bad" because men are evil and everything they touch is tainted with their evil. That's why a diamond gently massaged from the womb of Mother Earth is so much better than an artificial diamond created in a lab.

Goddammit I hate hippies.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Ryu @ Jan 6 2008, 12:43 PM)
You do not walk into a Talismonger shop and buy a focus. You may buy fetishes, ritual materials, spell formulae, books on magic theory and new-age crap. No problem.

Agreed. The OP confused me on this regard. When you walk into a random shop, you're as likely to find a scheister selling "genuine" Dunkelzahn toe nail clippings as you are a real talismonger. And even the genuine small scale corner store talismongers probably sells FAR more goofy mass produced trinkets to wannabes and cheap unrefined materials to dabblers than they will ever sell high grade refined materials to real practitioners (and real practictioners can probably make a lot of the stuff themselves). Besides, just think of the potential legal ramifications as people have already mentioned with the licensing restrictions. A nahuali is not going to be able to walk into a corner store and find some radical obsidian sitting in a ziplock bag next to a Force 3 or 4 m?cuahuitl weapon focus formula, and if he asked about such things, it'd likely raise some eyebrows. It'd be like walking into Cabela's and saying that the coleman lanterns, air guns, tents and the human tailored (not troll modified biggrin.gif) compound bows are nice but what you're really looking for is a rocket launcher. To get the real goodies you have to find the kind of talisleggers who have lunch with the big Fixers every Tuesday to keep up on biz. They'll still require money up front and wonder if you plan on trying to take out an entire bug hive yourself or something with that kind of a toy, but they'll keep their mouth shut and work on getting your product. If you're lucky it may not even take two weeks.
Ryu
Yes. A game looses much feel if having the best gear is taken for granted. It is very satisfiying for the players if they eventually manage to aquire anything they want, if they can not have it up front. Any more important purchase should soon be played out in the game. A samurai may feel his higher reaction or damage resistance, a mage his higher mana flow. A game that does not emphasize such things does play the same game all the time, but with higher DP.

The economic system of SR is not set up as a base for the game world; the economic system is only usable to model some simplified form of market in such a world, without adaptability. What we collectivly want is not a interchangeable, everyone can do it feel, but an individually choosen advantage point in a negative and destructive environment. There may be many weapon foci in the world, but YOURS is the enchanted katana your father gave you. You are going the right way if the players start to pay extra for style.
Ancient History
QUOTE (Whipstitch)
A nahuali is not going to be able to walk into a corner store and find some radical obsidian sitting in a ziplock bag next to a Force 3 or 4 m?cuahuitl weapon focus formula

Except possibly in Tenochititlan. Remember, local stores will be more likely aligned to local needs and interests. Try to find a gris-gris in Neo-Tokyo...
Abbandon
QUOTE (knasser)
QUOTE (Abbandon)
Street magic said an ally spirit can only take materialization or inhabitation,  what about possesion?  Why would it not be allowed?


It's not just allowed, it's mandated. Followers of a possession tradition replace Materialisation with Possession for any spirit they summon through a normal process (i.e. everything but Free Spirits, which is not really the same sort of summoning).


All spirits of a possesion tradion come with possesion instead of materialize but the book said when you are making an ally spirit you only get to choose between materialize or inhabit. It didnt say materialize/possesion (according to your tradition) or inhabit.

Was that a typo or what? If Im not from a possesion tradition can I make an ally spirit with possesion?
Whipstitch
Oh, I definitely agree that talismonger shops will definitely be colored by the local flavor. To me, the -real- tricky part of the equation was the "radical" and "Force 3 or 4 weapon focus formula" part; finding things appropriate for your tradition is another wrinkle to contend with, but it's easier to manage than the legal ramifications. Weapon foci and Symbolic link foci formula are terribly illegal; the powers that be are fine with letting people have low grade weapon foci provided they are licensed and registered, but the last thing they want to see is some mom 'n' pop outfit selling such items to any Awakened they see fit. A lot of formula are considered proprietary as well, which is probably why something as benign as a low grade Health formula requires licensing while combat formulas are outright illegal.
Abbandon
What would be some reasons why you would make a spirit inhabit an object?

Would it be possable to have the spirit use its powers on anyone who attempts to use the object that isnt you? If some dude knocks your possessed sword out of your hand can the spirit use a power or spell to fly back into your hand ?? Haha or what about like a throwing axe

Ancient History
There's considerable difference from inhabitation and possession. The primary use of inhabitation on an ally is to bind the spirit into an animal-so you really could have a talking, magical cat.
DTFarstar
I once had a Force 4 Ally Spirit Inhabit a Caduceus, gave him the levitate spell(so he could move), the heal spell, and the death touch spell(so if someone tried to steal him they would have to contend with force 4-8 death touches). As well as normal spirit ju-ju. Kept him pinned to my shirt to identify me as a healer and to heal my ass when I got shot. Also I liked the symbolism inherent in touching someone with a caduceus to heal them.

Chris
Abbandon
ok but these anti magic plant thingies and bacteria can be mass produced no problemo?? *shakes head*
Whipstitch
Eh, n/m.
Ravor
If you setup a breeding camp for hellhounds, you will get hellhound puppies, it's the same with FAB and the various awakened plants, the anti-magic properties are part of what they are so they don't have to worry about being "natural" unless of course you start installing cyber in them.

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