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apollo124
Yeah, I know it ain't technically cyber, but it still hits close to the mark.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,322486,00.html

Zen Shooter01
The historic issue here is that after testing the running blades, Dr. Gert-Peter Brueggemann determined that they gave Pistorius an advantage of over thirty percent at sprinting.

He's saying that the artificial limb performs better than the natural limb.
Dashifen
Does it surprise you that engineering can produce better than that which biology does? I, for one, welcome our new cyberzombie overlords ....
apollo124
We have the technology. We can rebuild him. Stronger. Faster. ..."
Stahlseele
*grabs apollo and shakes him* WHERE IS THAT QUOTE FROM?
Dashifen
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 14 2008, 10:57 AM)
*grabs apollo and shakes him* WHERE IS THAT QUOTE FROM?

It's from the 6 Million Dollar Man 70's TV show.
Stahlseele
FINALLY somebody who is able to answer me that friggin question <.< . .
hyzmarca
What he should do is buy a front row ticket to the Olympics right by the starting line. And then, when the race starts, he should just jump onto the track and start running. They might not win a medal, but it isn't about medals, it's about humiliating all of the able-bodied athletes on international television.
knasser
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
What he should do is buy a front row ticket to the Olympics right by the starting line. And then, when the race starts, he should just jump onto the track and start running. They might not win a medal, but it isn't about medals, it's about humiliating all of the able-bodied athletes on international television.


That's a great idea.... biggrin.gif







...of course I'll be in the next lane over on a motorbike. wink.gif
kzt
This is in Beijing. I think they just shoot people who try to smuggle motorbikes into these events.... wink.gif
pbangarth
The argument as I understand it is that this technology gives the 'handicapped' runner an unfair advantage, and that the Olympics are about athlete vs. athlete, not technology vs. technology.

Which, of course, is bunk. When every biker gets to use the same $50,000 racer as the Americans, Canadians, etc., then technology is no longer a factor. When every country has the same sports schools as the Germans, Russians, etc., then technology is not a part of the equation. Until then, the Olympic system is designed to reward the rich countries that can afford to maintain professional-grade 'amateurs', and maintain a hegemonic ideology that says we are all the same.

This guy's artificial legs are no different from aerodynamic bicycles and state-of-the-art training facilities. Except for the fact that the Olympic movement can't maintain the communal lie in the presence of technology as obvious as that at the end of his legs.
hyzmarca
So the Olympics are an insidious front for The Red Menace which serves only to corrupt and undermine our capitalist ideologies in preparation for the global proletariat revolution? biggrin.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
FINALLY somebody who is able to answer me that friggin question <.< . .

You should have asked sooner.
Fortune
Damn those Kenyan long distance runners and their state-of-the-art training facilities.
Eurotroll
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Jan 14 2008, 09:56 AM)
The historic issue here is that after testing the running blades, Dr. Gert-Peter Brueggemann determined that they gave Pistorius an advantage of over thirty percent at sprinting.

He's saying that the artificial limb performs better than the natural limb.

Advantage of thirty percent in what? Never throw around percentages without the context that they belong into. In this case, it's a thirty percent advantage in energy costs, ie, the athlete can run and/or sprint with (significantly, as it turns out) less effort than a normal person. Not very surprising, considering his limbs have been engineered to work as running limbs first and foremost (with the side effect that it is essentially impossible to stand still while wearing them -- he'd topple over).
Zen Shooter01
Yes, I understand that they perform better in one limited application. But it's better than earlier models. What will next year's model be like?

The history of prosthetics until now has been of artificial limbs that were inferior to the natural in just about every way.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Fortune)
Damn those Kenyan long distance runners and their state-of-the-art training facilities.

Kenya doesn't need state-of-the-art training facilities; they have state-of-the-art tall skinny black guys. Tall skinny black guys have an unfair mechanical advantage over other runners.

The US's with our SOTA training facilities, excell in women's gymnastics, in which 12-year-olds who look like 9-year-olds perform absurdly dangerous artistic routines on SOTA equipment.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
FINALLY somebody who is ancient enough to answer me that friggin question <.< . .

More likely.
Ravor
Ouch, now I feel even older since I knew the answer...
Fortune
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Kenya doesn't need state-of-the-art training facilities; they have state-of-the-art tall skinny black guys. Tall skinny black guys have an unfair mechanical advantage over other runners.

Exceptional height is not all that big of a deal in distance running, although it is of great advantage in sprinting. Source (one of many)

In fact, one of, if not the world's greatest distance runners (incidentally from Kenya), is well below average height, at approximately 5'4" (160-164cm, depending on source).
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 15 2008, 06:23 AM)
Kenya doesn't need state-of-the-art training facilities; they have state-of-the-art tall skinny black guys. Tall skinny black guys have an unfair mechanical advantage over other runners.

Exceptional height is not all that big of a deal in distance running, although it is of great advantage in sprinting. Source (one of many)

In fact, one of, if not the world's greatest distance runners (incidentally from Kenya), is well below average height, at approximately 5'4" (160-164cm, depending on source).

Is he black and skinny?
Fortune
QUOTE (Ravor)
Ouch, now I feel even older since I knew the answer...

I was quite surprised by the question, and am extremely curious as to who else (other than Stahlseele) didn't know the answer. eek.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 15 2008, 06:53 AM)
Is he black and skinny?

Sure is, but he isn't tall, so doesn't fit your 'unfair mechanical advantage' criteria. nyahnyah.gif wink.gif

Oops ... I just realized that I didn't actually name the athlete to whom I was referring. Mea culpa. The runner is, of course, Haile Gebrselassie.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Fortune @ Jan 14 2008, 03:55 PM)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 15 2008, 06:53 AM)
Is he black and skinny?

Sure is, but he isn't tall, so doesn't fit your 'unfair mechanical advantage' criteria. nyahnyah.gif wink.gif


Black and skinny are both mechanical advantages. grinbig.gif
DTFarstar
I'm 23 and I knew where that quote came from. You don't need to feel too old.

Chris
Stahlseele
oh, i actually know the series/films(who DOESN'T?) . . i just seem to have missed the part with the Quote again and again O.o
Jaid
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
oh, i actually know the series/films(who DOESN'T?) . . i just seem to have missed the part with the Quote again and again O.o

isn't that in the opening credits or something? i mean, i always just assumed it was actually kinda like how at the start of A-Team they'd talk about how the A-Team came to exist.
Eurotroll
Chalk it up to dubs dropping the intro narrations on nearly all 80s shows, leaving us AGS-based people somewhat deficient in the pop-cultural reference department unless we somehow happened upon them at a later date.
Stahlseele
yeah, kinda like that . . as far as i found out, that phrase is used exactly ONCE in the whole slwe of movies/episodes aired over here . . namely the one where they decide to fix him up . .
PBTHHHHT
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
yeah, kinda like that . . as far as i found out, that phrase is used exactly ONCE in the whole slwe of movies/episodes aired over here . . namely the one where they decide to fix him up . .

You still made us feel old when you asked the question... *sob* frown.gif

relating to the topic kinda in regards to the kenyan runners:

I think they did mention another advantage for the kenyan runners is the altitude that they live when they come down to our altitudes they have an advantage in running. There was also an analysis on the folks living in the Andean mountains, but the natives lived so high that their blood flow became a detriment, too much of a good thing scenario. I don't know where I heard this from, it was years ago from some bio class or article. eh.
Jhaiisiin
It's actually true. Working out and practicing at higher altitudes makes you more capable (generally) when dropping to a lower altitude. Your body is so used to working with less oxygen that when you get closer to sea level where there's more oxygen, your body gets all manner of happy and is able to perform beyond where it normally does.

IRL I live at about 5300 ft above sea level. I've gone to locations near sea level in Texas and Georgia and such and been much better at running and doing any other physical activities without issue.

The reverse is also true. Train for your whole life in a low-level environment then come up where I live and try to run. Fast ticket to exhaustion, I've heard. I know it's that way when I climb the mountain right next to where I live. 10k feet in height is all manner of hard to breath (moreso if you're out of shape, that's for sure).
Riley37
A Google search for the phrase ""we can rebuild him" yields references to the TV show in responses #1 through #4. Stahseele, if you've ever run an SR4 character who used the Browse program for the Data Search action, perhaps you might try the same in real life.

Not only do I know lines from TV shows from the 1970s, I also know lines from English plays in the 1600s, and a few lines from the Aeneid; does that make me really old?

Anyways, the idea that the Olympics reward turning people into single-purpose machines was attributed to Alexander the Great in one of Mary Renault's books; this guy takes that a step further.

Here's a question: at what point of artificial-limb functionality will a few people voluntarily choose to cut off their ordinary, fully functional legs, in order to replace them? If this guy gets to race in the Olympics, will others choose to get leg replacements?

I feel reluctant to have my legs cut off and replaced. I would consider trading my current myopic eyes for implanted techno-eyes with 20/20 vision, IR vision and a recorder, but it would still take overcoming a LOT of reluctance.
Ravor
I'll chop off my left leg the moment that I can do so without losing any functions, most importantly the ability to feel.

*Edit*

But I'd never enter a race... cyber.gif
Jhaiisiin
I'd opt for major re-work on my back, if given the option. Post surgery pains would be better than the typical back pain I deal with. Maybe some low-level muscle replacement or tailored bioware muscle therapy or something would work for me.

Maybe even replace my lower arms so I never get tendonitis or carpal tunnel again. smile.gif
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Riley37)
Here's a question: at what point of artificial-limb functionality will a few people voluntarily choose to cut off their ordinary, fully functional legs, in order to replace them? If this guy gets to race in the Olympics, will others choose to get leg replacements?


That point has done passed. There is actually some controversy about elective amputations. Most hospitals won't perform them, so people who want amputations resort to messy and dangerous home medical practice with such implements as chainsaws and shotguns, often killing themselves in the process.

Of course, such individuals aren't trying to enhance athletic performance. They simply don't want their limbs.
Fortune
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
yeah, kinda like that . . as far as i found out, that phrase is used exactly ONCE in the whole slwe of movies/episodes aired over here . . namely the one where they decide to fix him up . .

Once every episode. wink.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (PBTHHHHT)
I think they did mention another advantage for the kenyan runners is the altitude that they live when they come down to our altitudes they have an advantage in running.

Sure, but that's neither an unfair mechanical advantage nor a state-of-the-art training facility, which was my point.
pbangarth
In reference the example of the decidedly techno-disadvantaged Kenyans, two points come to mind.

1)
The Kenyans, without any mechanical help, have advantages from their cultural history, genetics and their environment (the last two are directly related). Without technical / financial help, other nations may never produce someone to beat them. That's the way the Olympics were meant to work, even if it meant that Kenyans would be renowned throughout time as master long-distance runners. In the U.S., Apaches were similarly renowned for running, for similar reasons.

Other nations/groups throw money at the problem to simulate Kenyan conditions (or simply go to a place like Kenya), or to find other advantages to offset the natural ones.

2)
Kenya produces good endurance athletes, primarily runners. Nations with mega-bucks to spend on equipment and training facilities and techniques win gold in track/swimming/skiiing/throwing/wrestling/jumping/boxing/.....etc., etc., etc., without any regard to natural advantages of their region. This often appears in the form of equipment or access to training facilities that others cannot hope to have.

The Olympics reward this behaviour with medals and prestige, which is why they spend the money in the first place.
apollo124
Sorry I didn't answer your question, Stahlseele, but I went to work just after I posted it. I just figured everyone knew it, I hadn't counted on our Euro pals missing out.

As far as elective limb replacement, that isn't my cup of tea. Hell, I can't even use eyedrops, and forget about contact lenses. I can't deal with anything messing with my eyes. Now, if they want to talk about "beer belly removal", well, I could go for that.
tisoz
QUOTE (Jhaiisiin)
I'd opt for major re-work on my back, if given the option. Post surgery pains would be better than the typical back pain I deal with. Maybe some low-level muscle replacement or tailored bioware muscle therapy or something would work for me.

Have you tried chiropractic? I was having continual back pain, so bad it hurt unless I was laying down and staying still. The situation progressed so that I needed an excuse from a medical authority for work. I noticed the medical authority included chiropractors. Everything I had ever heard about them was that it was quackery, but if I got the excuse I could care less.

Long story short - it actually relieved my pain. I was pissed that the medical doctors I had seen for the problem did not suggest the chiropractor. I learned that the SOP for doing my job was about the worst things a person could do to their back. I learned a few other things, too.

When I first scheduled an appointment, they asked about things totally unrelated to my back, like digestive problems for example. Every time I went in for an adjustment and a various therapy (I must admit the therapy did not seem to work for me, but I may have discontinued it too quick), they would ask about any problems or pain. I usually blew it off, thinking how is cracking my neck going to cure constipation, but one day I mentioned my thumb was sore. I would get similar pain a couple times a week and it seemed to me to be fatigue related. But the chiropractor felt along my elbow and shoulder, then popped something (it has been a long time so I do not remember exactly.) No more pain. After that, I told them about every little thing.

That crap job, and its phased out health coverage are long gone. If I ever could afford to go to a chiropractor on a regular basis, I would find one that worked for me and visit as often as possible. If someone had told me the pain I endured for years could be gone, I would have jumped on the chiropractic bandwagon long before I did.
tisoz
QUOTE (Stahlseele)
*grabs apollo and shakes him* WHERE IS THAT QUOTE FROM?

Shadowtech, page 36.
QUOTE (Oscar Goldman - "The Six Million Dollar Man")
Gentleman, we can rebuild him.  We have the technology.  Better. Stronger.  Faster.
tisoz
QUOTE (Fortune)
Damn those Kenyan long distance runners and their state-of-the-art training facilities.

You bet!

It would cost big time to reconstruct the environment, especially when adding the lions and cheetahs that provide adequate motivation.
Fortune
But that quote is not quite correct. It should read ...

QUOTE (Oscar Goldman - "The Six Million Dollar Man")
Gentleman, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. We have the capability to build the world’s first bionic man. Steve Austin will be that man, better than he was before. Better, stronger, faster.


biggrin.gif
Jhaiisiin
QUOTE ("")
Have you tried chiropractic?

Yep. Every time I've seen a chiropractor, they've actually hurt me (and not the good "Ow!... wait, that feels better" kinda way). I have however had a decent amount of success with a massage therapist I used to use. I've not gone back in a long time though, partly due to finances, partly because I tend to fill up my schedules.

It's livable, and only sometimes causes me problems functioning. I know it could be a *lot* worse, so I'm thankful that it isn't. Come to think of it, I should have money enough to set up more sessions again soon, so maybe I can go back to having a painless time for awhile again. We'll see how life likes that idea, huh? Hehe
apollo124
QUOTE (Fortune)
But that quote is not quite correct. It should read ...

QUOTE (Oscar Goldman - "The Six Million Dollar Man")
Gentleman, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. We have the capability to build the world’s first bionic man. Steve Austin will be that man, better than he was before. Better, stronger, faster.


biggrin.gif

I have to admit here, I never actually saw the first episode, just the snippets at the beginning of the credits. And it's probably been a good 20 years since I've even seen that. The Bigfoot episode was great though.
Fortune
QUOTE (apollo124)
The Bigfoot episode was great though.

Funnily enough, although it's been forever since I saw an episode of Six Million Dollar Man, that specific episode is always the one that sticks in my mind as well.
apollo124
Well, Bigfoot was a big deal back then. It seems to have mostly faded by now though. Besides, other than another bionic person, what else actually was a challenge for him?
Method
QUOTE (PBTHHHHT @ Jan 14 2008, 04:47 PM)
There was also an analysis on the folks living in the Andean mountains, but the natives lived so high that their blood flow became a detriment, too much of a good thing scenario.  I don't know where I heard this from, it was years ago from some bio class or article.  eh.

You are correct.

Its call Chronic Altitude Illness (very creative, right?). It has to do with a phenomenon called diffusion limitation which basically means that the blood is moving through the capillaries in your lungs so fast that your RBCs don't have enough time to fully load up on oxygen (since the atmospheric O2 level is so low). In response people actually produce so many red blood cells that their blood gets too thick.

[ Spoiler ]
Demerzel
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE (Riley37 @ Jan 14 2008, 07:03 PM)
Here's a question: at what point of artificial-limb functionality will a few people voluntarily choose to cut off their ordinary, fully functional legs, in order to replace them? If this guy gets to race in the Olympics, will others choose to get leg replacements?


That point has done passed. There is actually some controversy about elective amputations. Most hospitals won't perform them, so people who want amputations resort to messy and dangerous home medical practice with such implements as chainsaws and shotguns, often killing themselves in the process.

Of course, such individuals aren't trying to enhance athletic performance. They simply don't want their limbs.

I'm pretty curious, can you cite a source for this?
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Demerzel)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 14 2008, 05:42 PM)
QUOTE (Riley37 @ Jan 14 2008, 07:03 PM)
Here's a question: at what point of artificial-limb functionality will a few people voluntarily choose to cut off their ordinary, fully functional legs, in order to replace them? If this guy gets to race in the Olympics, will others choose to get leg replacements?


That point has done passed. There is actually some controversy about elective amputations. Most hospitals won't perform them, so people who want amputations resort to messy and dangerous home medical practice with such implements as chainsaws and shotguns, often killing themselves in the process.

Of course, such individuals aren't trying to enhance athletic performance. They simply don't want their limbs.

I'm pretty curious, can you cite a source for this?
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