I personally find the concept of and fluff about Technomancers fascinating; however, they live up to neither. The following is an attempt to understand and explain why that is. I will grant that the most egregious errors are well known and ask patience so that I can flush out the thought process. Comments are both expected and welcome. I only ask that you keep them in the dual realm of civil and constructive.

It is important to tell people what you are going to talk about; however, it is just as important to let people know what you are not going to talk about. I will NOT be covering the known issues with the Matrix such as Agent Smith, hackastacks, etc.


Thought 1: Inspiration for the Technomancer

The most obvious inspiration for the TM are our friends from 3rd Edition: the otaku. Mechanically they are obviously based on mages. Many have pointed out the thematic similarities and mechanical replication between the two. A few examples follow:

1. Summoning/Binding/Banishing Spirits ~ Compiling/Registering/Decompiling Sprites
2. Casting ~ Threading
3. Initiation/Meta-magics ~ Submersion/Echos
4. Mental Attributes correlating with “Physical� Astral Attributes ~ Mental Attributes correlating with “Matrix� Persona Attributes

Then we hit the brick wall of complex forms. If we continue our mage analogy they would be spells; however, they aren’t. They function similarly to 3rd Edition spells – purchased with a rating, etc. – but are used without drain. So, what are they?

We don't have to look far to see to what they should be compared. They function in a virtually identical manner to the programs that Hackers use. Mechanically, it can be argued, they are identical; however, RAW states that they are separate.

I think that we have a solid base for the TM.


Thought 2: Why a TM doesn’t work

This is obvious to several people – please bear with me while I wade through this. I find that if it is written down, I can organize my thoughts and everyone reading them can be on the same page – doesn’t mean they are, it just increases the likelihood.

Why is the TM broken? In a word cost. The cost of a rating 5 hacking program is 5000 nuyen = 1BP. A TM has to spend 5 BP for the same complex form. I don’t think further examples are needed with respect to cost of complex forms.

The second cost is that of the living persona. Let’s look at an off the shelf Commlink and OS – a Fairlight Caliban running Novatech Navi will run you 9500 nuyen ~ 2 BP. Our friendly TM uses his mental attributes for his living persona. To get the same ratings (for a human) will cost:

• Response 4 = Intuition 4 – 30 BP
• Signal 5 = Resonance/2 – Can’t be done a chargen. We’ll settle for 3 (5/2, round up) – 40 BP + 5 BP (Technomancer Quality)
• Firewall 3 = Willpower 3 – 20 BP
• System 4 = Logic 4 – 30 BP

Total BP cost = 125 BP (80 BP attributes / 45 BP special) and we have yet to purchase physical attributes or Charisma; which incidentally serves as the Biofeedback filter.

Some will say, “Hold on! You have to buy your attributes anyway.� True; however, I am severely limited in physical attributes due to the number of BP I am spending on complex forms.


Thought 3: How do we fix it?

This is always the point at which disagreement sets in as we don’t all agree on how the Matrix does (or should work). Therefore, I will lay out my proposed fix as well as my thought process. Feel free to comment on it and/or make better suggestions.

First off, I propose that complex forms be purchased in CFP (complex form points) where 1 BP = 5 CFP. This allows the TM to spend a similar amount of BP on complex forms as the Hacker does on programs. I think that leaving the starting limit of Resonance x 2 complex forms of a rating no higher than Resonance should stay. However, YMMV. I still need some help figuring out the cost post chargen.

Second, … frankly, I am at a loss for how to fix this. Any help is appreciated.


Thanks for taking the time to read this.

- Alex

Looking forward to when Technomancers don’t suck.

i would say that yes programs and complex forms are the same, when it comes to how they interact with the traffic flow of the matrix. but when it comes to the other end, they are completely different...

frank, take your meds

Saying his numbers are wrong?

I fully expect ALOT of things to be helped with Unwired. Also I do not think Technomancers are Broken. If they WERE broken, they would out do a hacker. In fact, I think they are kind of balanced.

Think like this: They cannot be hacked by another hacker, like a Commlink can. Sure, they lose in that they still need a commlink to store things, but..they do not need a Commlink. They can go into a place as just a wage slave and hack it for you, and, places that try to detect commlinks won't see them.

Admittedly, their strength mostly comes from story reasons..but..remember, when we first saw Adepts, in previous editions, it was not until the Grimoire/MitS that they came into their own. Mages and Adepts were made more powerful once street magic came out,and I expect we will see something similar with Unwired for Technomancers.

Though not related to crunch discussion, for which I make no apology. The fluff side of things and a TM's abilities seems to be inspired by Gibson's Mona Lisa Overdrive.

Technomancer at build
Res 5, Complex Form 5
Two Free Actions to thread to 10 (Easy to resist 2 and 3 Fading)
10 Complex Form + 4 Hacking + 2 VR
I'm rolling 16 dice pool on a simple action left this turn

Hacker at build
Program 5
Complex Action to load program
Next Pass
Program 5 + 4 Hacking + 2 VR
11 Dice the turn after the technomancer as already started

Yeah they're BP/Karma heavy but weaker than a hacker not quite, its comparing adepts and cyber. They have a different way of going about their job but I don't think they're at a disadvantage. Hackers advantage is its easier for them to hack as a hobby, Technomancer is a technomancer.

Here's what I'm doing with mine (I'm kinda waiting for Unwired before worrying about submersion..) I've picked up mechanic skills, and maglock interfaces so I can help on the repair and breaking and entering, by putting Machine Sprites in to run Diagnostics on the systems. Also will pick up automatics skill, with a suppressive fire specialization. Low points for good assist hopefully.

In my opinion, the rules need to be changed so that Threading actually takes some kind of Action to accomplish. I really dislike the fact that it doesn't even use a Free Action at the moment.

Our group rules it as a free action, and allows the rethreading. So I can thread a program slowly, it just takes time. Allows for a technomancer to thread a rating 6-9 program (at 2-3 hits per free action), in the time a hacker has to load his program. If I'm in a time limit situation, I've interspersed my threads on extended test. Thread - Hack, Rethread - Hack, Rethread - Hack... So my program is good towards the end, whereas at the beginning I'm just compensating for my threaded stealth program.

So our interpretation on the thread/rethread (since it isn't explicitely stated one way or the other). And a house rule to turn threading into a free action instead of a non-action. Works for us, might not for you.

So what about technomancers as riggers, continuting the thesis on technomancers. Not just using sprites (we know the sprites do well) but doing so themselves? What do people think?

One thing I think would help Technos is if they can have ALL there complex forms at the ready. A hacker can only keep a limited number of programs loaded at a time with out suffering from problems.
From what i've been told (and I could be wrong). Technomancers have a similar set up they can only have x many complex forms "loaded" at a time. It could give early techomancers a boost if they have access to all there complex forms they know at a given moment.

I'd like to see some technomancer rigger builds. As they require no comlink and with the addition of sprites it wouldn't take much for a technomancer to be built as a rigger instead of a hacker. (and drones would actually be something to sink your cash into).

So we're clear, what are the widely accepted issues with 4th edition Matrix rules, and for reference, Frank, which edition's rules did you think were best?

Am reading through matrix again, always looking for anything I might have missed. So far nothing... But on the complex forms I got to thinking.

Another way to house rule around the threading:

Threading requires no action, and you cannot rethread. Simple choose the rating for the new form, or the bonus on an existing form and resist that amount of drain. This makes the software skill pointless, unless you wanted to rule a limit as to what you could add/create based on software.

Otherwise since you don't have to take all the hits or even any of the hits, you could just keep tossing rolls until you get the hits you want for the rating. This is very pointless rolling, and is rolling dice just to roll dice. This makes it slightly closer to mages having to choose the force of their spell beforehand, they don't have to roll before casting to see if they are capable of casting their force 4 spell. I still prefer my groups slow threading, since mages don't usually have to resist 5 or 6 drain on a regular basis (unless overcasting), which is what a technomancer would be doing to keep up with a hacker.

I would like to thank everyone for keeping this civil and positive.

I too am waiting for Unwired; however, I am still scratching my head about how anything will be fixed without touching the basic rules. I can understand why the devs refuse to "fix" the Matrix, since they designed it. Personally, I would love for one of the devs to show me how to play a TM and not feel cheated compared to a similarly designed Hacker.

A second thought originated while I was at work today: The downside of a Technomancer is not just the cost of complex forms but also the cost of Resonance.

Assuming we:

• use my proposed fix (1 BP = 5 CFP)
• ignore Frank's very correct math on the cost general use programs (no offense Frank, I just don't have a good counter argument for your logic)

I am still paying 45 BP to play a different style Hacker. Why?

I understand the argument that TMs have advantages; however, these advantages don't add up to a distinct mechanical advantage for the BP cost. (Please note, I have always read the rules to only allow threading once.)

Let's keep the discussion going.

Huh, and here I was under the impression that no Technomancer actually ever used his living persona for anything, as commlinks with complete program loadouts were so cheap. I thought the point of a techno was to power sprites; the whole living persona thing is just a free add-on if you ever get caught without a real commlink to work with.

I built a Technomancer that I found rather effective. I had they key programs as Complex Forms(Exploit, Attack, Armour, Sleeze, Stealth), and I had a commlink with the Decrypt, Edit, Encrypt. I would Thread Search, and any other of the lower use programs when needed. If you have a TM with a Living Persona against a hacker of a similar rating persona, well, think about this: The Hacker has to have EVERY program with them, or take a complex action to shut down, and then another complex actin to upload a program. a Technomancer can get a ttally new program FREE through Threading, and then hit the Hacker(or ICE) with it. That is before you throw in Echoes and Sprites.

Hey guys, after reading Emergence and checking the rules I think I agree with Trollman's conclusions: Something must be done.

I can't see how you could be able to read threading as being cumulative, any more than you can cast a force 3 spell and then a force 2 spell and let it be one force 5 spell, resisting drain twice. Threading a complex form gives -2 penalty on all other actions, so if you do it more than once the penalties would accumulate.

Anyway, here's my idea: Instead of messing with Complex form cost why not try to follow the fluff that techno's can do intuitively what others need years of training and education to perform?

Remove all techno skills, and let techno's use Resonance+ linked Attribute. Hacking would be Exploit+Logic, etc. Skills are expensive in this game so why not save a few points there? I know our hacker has spent most of his BPs and karma on skills. This fits better IMO with normal peaople suffering from APES becoming good hackers overnight.

I would also consider using Resonance for Signal (instead of Res/2), otherwise it is just too easy to jam a techie, and always have the technie's signal harder to find and intercept than normal.

What do you think? Broken? A part om me wants it to be broken and reserved for NPCs only to make it more scary

That's interesting. I think it might be little too much, but it certainly bears considering.

The reason we go with rethreading is due to the fact that a technomancer has to roll to thread. A mage doesn't roll to figure up what force he's casting, a mage says "I cast a force 5 spell" and casts the spell. The technomancer on the other hand has to roll for each one. When you put the no action on it, this makes you wonder what the thoughts were to begin with?

"I can thread a program of up to Software + Resonance from scratch. But I need to roll the dice continuously until I actually get that rating, or the rating I'm looking for."

So one of 2 house rules need to be made:
Threading is a free action and rethreading is allowed. This way it takes time to thread, but all dice rolls are still present. If you are pressed you can do the single free action deadly threading. (Considering threading is fading equal to rating, whereas spells are usually force/2)

or

Threading takes no action, and you can thread a bonus or complex form up to your (Resonance or Software skill). Select a rating and resist fading accordingly.

I´d prefer the second alternative for threading, less dice rolling is good. The limit should be software skill.

As for Resonance+attribute, I don´t like it. It would be way better to spend on TM quality+Resonance (even with some losses to augmentation), than to learn the skills/buy the gear etc. That is not balanced.

I think it would be better to roll Intuition+skill, and do away with the whole concept of programs for TMs. With the rather fucked up Wireless Rules, using the same mechanics for everyone is not as desireable as in other places. Going without complex forms reduces many of the TM problems + removes the necessity of always having max. resonance. Still not balanced, but better.

True that mages chose their force, but remember that so do Techies if they by complex forms... which is similar to a mage being able to cast some spells without having to resist drain at all! I know, compared to a hacker they still suck but it means a techie doesen't HAVE to use threading all the time, and when he does he only really needs it for Stealth and perhaps exploit.

But I kinda like option 2 as well. Eliminating excessive rolls is good.

I still don't like the idea of techies having to use as much BPs on their mystically aquired skills (most having never been tought them) as hackers do on theirs.

Perhaps I'll make a 400BP techie with my house rule just to see if he got too many BPs to spare.

Last night I convinced my GM that siince my comple forms cost the same as knowledge skills my learning stimulator [3] (reduces the cost of known kkbowledge and language skills by its rating) should also apply. He thought it seemed okay (as long as it was only for the karma and not the +3 dice I get to almost all knowledge skills from various upgrades)

So, while you guys are busy making the Living Persona actually work, have you figured out how to depower Sprites so the Techno doesn't suddenly become *too* powerful on the Matrix?

Signal=Resonance leads to rather powerful brainwaves, I´d not like that. Besides, jamming tech is not-that-effective anyway.

1) Carry a device with high signal to use as a relay station. Spice that up, see Wasabi.

2) If you are successfully jammed, find and take the jammer. Should be worth quite a bit of money.


Are sprites really a way to become too powerful? If anything, rules that enable a TM do get things done himself depower sprites in comparison.

Complex Form + Threading(at Resonance) is a base 10 already. Then you can add a sprite service (IIRC) to get even more, which will be inconsequential due to the limit of jammer ratings (should be 10, again IIRC). So you can keep your base signal even in the face of jamming, nearly all of the time.