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Lebo77
How many people can you fit in a vehicle?

Is it Body dependent?

Can you buy extra passenger seats by spending upgrade slots?
Lebo77
Well, clearly there are no official rules on this topic, as no one has yet responded, even with over 80 views. Wat prompted this is the following:

One of my players wants to buy a Tata Hotspur for use as a replacement for the standard GMC step-van as a team transport. (The step-van is unable to outrun a Citymaster, so clearly some extra speed is required). The picture shows the Hotspur as a 2-seat Pickup. My question is this:

1. Is it reasonable that Tata (or a competitor) makes an SUV version of the Hotspur? (Like the H1 SUV versions of the HMMWV) If so, what would the costs look like? More then the standard 60K?

2. How many people could such a vehicle hold? How many Trolls vs. other metatypes? Figure the two seats up front, plus two rows of rear bench seats? (maybe skip the second row for more cargo space?)

3. Another Hotspur question: It has smartwheels and a pilot of 1? I thought you needed pilot of 3+ to get smartwheels? If it were to be adjusted, do you up the pilot rateing or loose the smartwheels? Does the price change?

I am looking for opinions, not official rulings (since AFAIK, none exist).
Moon-Hawk
Sure. I think that's a great starting point for making an SUV. Just call it a new vehicle, I probably wouldn't even bother modifying the costs.
Rule-of-thumb, probably one troll per bench seat. Cram an extra person next to him if you need to, but it won't be comfy.
It could be that a pilot 3 is required to figure out what to do with after-market smartwheels, but that if a vehicle (and thus it's pilot) is designed for the smart wheels, the higher pilot is not required. I'd just leave it alone, because I don't think it's that big of a deal anyway.
Those are my opinions.
Kyoto Kid
...I can understand the desire to want to keep things basic, but no set values for passenger or cargo load makes no sense. Granted for some vehicles (Bikes for example) it is a no brainer, but how much Cargo can you really stuff into a Bulldog Van, or how many passengers does a Fed-Boeing commuter seat? These are pretty basic stats for vehicles.

And then you have Metatype, to deal with (Rigger 3 I thought had pretty straightforward rules on this).

...I can just see it now, 20 college students cramming into a Nissan Jackrabbit and driving off to the Rush party on Greek Row.
Whipstitch
I dunno, I'd likely lower some attributes for an SUV version that can hold bunches of people since the hotspur comes across as a pretty highly tuned vehicle with a lot of bells and whistles that's meant more for crashing over hills first and everything else second. I mean, honestly, the Hotspur's as fast as a Suzuki Mirage racing bike and is described as having super heavy duty shocks with a big lift stock; the thing sounds more like a muscle truck fan's wet dream than something that's a few frame mods and a roof away from being an SUV.

Besides, for the price of a Hotspur you can buy a Landrover/Ares Humvee Civic with enough nuyen left over to get it boosted up to 168 speed through engine enhancements, a nitrous kit and/or a built in jammer system or boatload of armor.
Calabim
Yeah I really can't believe that passenger and (especially) cargo capacity have been left out. This really has to be something that we will get some errata on.
Lebo77
OK, some new models of the Tata Hotspur I will be offering up in my game:

New to the Hotspur line for 2070, the Urban Adventurer model. It has all the features you would expect in a Performance SUV used for inner-city driving, like a full gridlink system, and enhanced auto-nav. Included in this model are enhanced amenities including 9 extra cup holders, a 14 inch Tridio screen and a full Enviro-Seal ™ system to keep your family safe and happy. But if the urge strikes, or the situation demands you still have the power and off-road capability of the six-time Dakar-rally winning Hotspur name. The SL model offers further improved amenities (high), a basic remote termination systems, and furrther engine tuneing (top speed 200) for only 14,500 extra.The Urban Adventurer, dominate your environment.
Tata Hotspur, Urban Adventurer:
Handling: +1 Acceleration: 20/50 Top Speed: 167 Pilot: 3 Body: 16 Armor: 10 Sensor: 2 Availability: 10 Cost: 72,000
Built-in mods:
Amenities (Middle), Anti-Theft System, GridLink, Life Support-1, Personal Armor 3, Off Road Suspension, Engine Customization (acceleration only), Smart Tires
(This model has two front bucket seats, two rear bench seats large enough to hold two humans comfortably each, and a rear cargo area large enough to hold a large pet cage, or all the luggage for a family of 6 going on a week-long camping trip. Both bench seats can be folded or removed for additional storage)

Also new in 2070 is the Tata Tundra, intended for use in the northern climes. Derived from the legendary Hotspur racing truck, this super-size SUV is able to handle the worst that winter has to throw at you without getting stuck.
Tata Tundra:
Handling: +1 Acceleration: 17/41 Top Speed: 167 Pilot: 1 Body: 16 Armor: 10 Sensor: 2 Availability: 8 Cost: 52,000
Built-in mods:
Extreme Environment (Arctic), Personal Armor 3, Off Road Suspension, Winch, Smart Tires
(Same capacity as above)

Any comments?
BlackHat
I'm also surprised this didn't make it into Arsenal. Granted, it always felt like an additional mathimatical constraint in earlier editions, but I do remember getting a lot of use out of the rule that let me chuck the back seats out of my van in exchange for more room to add gear/mods/cargo.

Calabim
I am playing a truck driver/smuggler and for the last 2 months we have been playing really fast and loose with cargo rules. I would have been happy with some general guidelines at least, but nothing. The last game I convinced my GM we could load a Thunderbird with enough room to cover it with cardboard boxes in the trailer. If I was the GM I would not have allowed it, but without any guidelines I can be convincing.

Maybe if they just told us how much weight a vechical could carry based on Body then we could use common sense.
Kyoto Kid
...one possible solution, dust off your copy of Rigger 3 and just use the old cargo/passenger stats.

...zoiks! Where do I come up with such great ideas...? And I haven't even made it to the clinic in Toronto yet... (RL Mnemonic Enhancer)
Calabim
What strikes me is that this seems to be a common suggestion and I have took it many times. It rubs me the wrong way because I am playing 4th ed. not third. If I have to port half the rules from a previous editions then why not just play that edition. Don't get me wrong I like third, however I am playing with a group new to the game so I can understand there frustration when I show up every week with a new third ed book. If your going to make a new edition don't half ass it, do it right.
Kyoto Kid
...I understand your position, especially if you have a relatively new group of players it can be confusing to them to deal with books from two different editions. Unfortunately in a sense, the damage has been done as the supplement is (or is in the process of being) printed and the PDF released. Incorporating these stats at this juncture will require either an extensive Errata file (which will not really make anything go smoother as one will have to consult two different documents) or a full revision (which I do not forsee happening)

What I did (because I created PDFs of all my old stuff so I wouldn't have to lug 30 kg of books around) was pull just the tables out and distill them into a single file for quick reference. Of course this is easier to do in the electronic format than with hardcopy.

Yeah, it's a kluge, but at least it gives something to work with.
Calabim
Really. "extensive." I don't think so. A new mod would work. (call it...oh I don't know... cargo space.) ...zoiks! Where do I come up with such great ideas...?

Also referencing errata should not be a problem if you own the pdf. As other companies have shown us updating a PDF is not hard.
Jaid
do you know how much space there is in a subcompact today? if so, then you can take a guess how much space the subcompacts in SR4 have. same deal with most of the vehicles.
Kyoto Kid
...[edit] ahhh Jaid you slipped in ahead of me.

Not everyone prefers PDFs though. The information would also need to be incorporated in the hardcopy version as well and that means re-printing the book which is a costly undertaking. I work in digital print and re-runs because of errors most definitely cut into the profit margin. We may be able to recoup some of the material loss through recycling rebates, but there's also pre-press, set up, run time, maintenance, and bindery costs which still have to be paid for somehow.

My comment regarding Errata as being inconvenient was directed primarily towards those who prefer the dead tree version (and by what I've seen there are a fair number who do).

I totally agree, these stats should have been included the first time around. But again, what's done is done (at least for now) & we need to deal with it the best we can.
Calabim
QUOTE
if so, then you can take a guess how much space the subcompacts in SR4 have. same deal with most of the vehicles.


I actually don't know the cargo capacity of most cars, but a quick search can find it. By that thinking why have acceleration and speed listed? Why not have the player just look it up and decide the rules them self? Or uses rules from a previous edition that this game company didn't bother to publish. The point is I am not a game devolper, I am a consumer. I expect a finished product and untill Catalyst can show that they can deliver that (without forgetting the basics) I will hold on to my nuyen.gif .
Calabim
@ Kyoto: True.... but I am still not sure how this errata would be "extensive"
Kyoto Kid
...maybe not so much in the sense of "page" volume though there would still have to be an entry for every vehicle appearing in the both the core book and Arsenal. For the sake of conciseness, it would almost behoove them to just re-issue the complete vehicular stats (with the suggested additions) in a quick reference tabular format rather than just print the omitted stats by themselves.

[edit]

Cargo space would also apply to drones as well, for in previous editions, it was important for determining capacity of ammo magazines, missile bays, and other internal equipment.
Jaid
QUOTE (Calabim)
QUOTE
if so, then you can take a guess how much space the subcompacts in SR4 have. same deal with most of the vehicles.


I actually don't know the cargo capacity of most cars, but a quick search can find it. By that thinking why have acceleration and speed listed? Why not have the player just look it up and decide the rules them self? Or uses rules from a previous edition that this game company didn't bother to publish. The point is I am not a game devolper, I am a consumer. I expect a finished product and untill Catalyst can show that they can deliver that (without forgetting the basics) I will hold on to my nuyen.gif .

because you don't need exact amounts for cargo capacity, it's going to be entirely based on how well packed it is anyways, for one thing. sure, a car might say it can fit 5 people or whatever, but that doesn't mean you can't squeeze in 7 or 8 if you're not too picky about comfort or safety =P
Calabim
You don't need "exact" amounts for speed and acceleration ether. That's why they use a game mechanic. That's all I want from Catalyst.
cx2
I have to admit as someone who only jumped in at 4th ed I would find at least a vague estimated passenger capacity helpful. I can't look up Riggers 3 because I don't have it, and can't practically get or use it. I know there are sources, but I don't really want to buy a book purely for those stats since that would be getting absurd. I certainly don't know how much space there is in a helicopter, and would imagine it could vary wildly, but if they had included a rough maximum human-size passengers item I could guesstimate based on the size of a seated human.

As to drones, I think that can be abstracted away in the mods with the exception of drones specifically designed for cargo. There is the mod for extra ammo after all.
Kyoto Kid
What I might do is distill all the vehicle stats table into Excel format. The only drawback of this is I do not have a personal website so I am not sure where I can post he file for people to download.
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