Just curious... was looking at a run to hit a weapons shipment from say Ares to a Knight Errant training division. I would figure Knight Errant would basically use Ares weapons, but even with Arsenal, there are some categories that don't seem to have an Ares weapon.
For instance, the only Ares SMG that I see is the executive protector. Not exactly a SWAT style weapon like the present day MP5. I'd thus ship say HK227's but if Ares owns say Ingram or Colt, it would make more sense to have them use those when a straight up Ares Brand isn't there.
Any suggestions who owns H&K, Ingram, Colt, Fichetti, and the handful of other arms manufacturers that have products listed in either BBB or Arsenal?
Full Version: Who owns all the weapon companies?
All the majors make everything. There is going to be a gun from Ares, a japanacorp and SK for pretty much every niche you can think of. It's boring to list them, but they exist.
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| All the majors make everything. There is going to be a gun from Ares, a japanacorp and SK for pretty much every niche you can think of. It's boring to list them, but they exist. |
Ok following that then, why does H&K exist? Somebody has to own them or they'd lose out to Ares ability to Walmart them to death. If they don't occupy a niche that keeps them in business, and there's a Mega corp clone equivalent to anything they can make, why are they still in business?
If it's been mentioned before who owns those companies, I must have missed it. And yeah, I generally agree with KZT; unless the weapon's a "flagship" type weapon like the Ares Thunderstruck there's likely a generic version of any given weapon category made by a megacorp somewhere. Mind you though, when I say generic, I do mean generic; MCT likely makes SMGs, but I doubt it'd come with the same bells and whistles as say, the Ingram Smartgun X at the same price. Just like with operating systems and program ratings, Shadowrun assumes you're spending your nuyen on the noteworthy products because it's not intended to be a smart shopping simulator and buying lemons isn't fun.
Plus, don't forget that Weapons World is an Ares subsidiary, and while I'm sure Ares gives their own product preferential treatment, I'm certain that Ares isn't above stocking large quantities of the competition's armaments in the name of having a truly well-rounded inventory, so it's not like they don't have the relationships needed to acquire non-Ares branded armaments if they want to.
As for your question, it's probably because they don't care about putting their name on everything. One of the constant themes in SR business actually -IS- basically the Walmart effect. An awful lot of businesses are essentially still around just because they're seperate companies in name only and they've learned to comply with megacorporate demands or be assimilated. Ares doesn't likely care that much about buying out H&K because laying out the cash to do so would be a pyrrhic victory and because they likely make plenty of money off of many of the H&K products being sold through ammunition and gun sales via the aforementioned Weapons World subsidiary. You don't need to completely annihilate a company to get a piece of their action. Plus, this is RPG economics we're talking about here; it helps not to think about it too much.
Plus, don't forget that Weapons World is an Ares subsidiary, and while I'm sure Ares gives their own product preferential treatment, I'm certain that Ares isn't above stocking large quantities of the competition's armaments in the name of having a truly well-rounded inventory, so it's not like they don't have the relationships needed to acquire non-Ares branded armaments if they want to.
As for your question, it's probably because they don't care about putting their name on everything. One of the constant themes in SR business actually -IS- basically the Walmart effect. An awful lot of businesses are essentially still around just because they're seperate companies in name only and they've learned to comply with megacorporate demands or be assimilated. Ares doesn't likely care that much about buying out H&K because laying out the cash to do so would be a pyrrhic victory and because they likely make plenty of money off of many of the H&K products being sold through ammunition and gun sales via the aforementioned Weapons World subsidiary. You don't need to completely annihilate a company to get a piece of their action. Plus, this is RPG economics we're talking about here; it helps not to think about it too much.
Besides, by assuming that the corps clone each other's designs to a alrge degree it opens up options for character customization, sure, the guns may all have the exact same stats, but at the end of the day it makes the players feel better if everyone isn't using an Ares Predator.
| QUOTE (cryptoknight) |
| Ok following that then, why does H&K exist? Somebody has to own them or they'd lose out to Ares ability to Walmart them to death. If they don't occupy a niche that keeps them in business, and there's a Mega corp clone equivalent to anything they can make, why are they still in business? |
you have to remember that in shadowrun its not business that prevails its quality of product.
people don't buy something because its trendy...
or the new tech wiz gadget that doesn't even work.
they buy it because it works...
H&K just makes things "better"
Huh? I have to completely disagree with that.
| QUOTE (Ravor @ Jan 30 2008, 11:46 PM) |
| Huh? I have to completely disagree with that. |
you tend to do that alot, if the companies that manufacture weapons in teh shadowrun world did so based upon making money and what the consumer will buy you could name several items in the book that is statted out and priced according to its popularity instead of its rules.
It's part of my charm, however, if you really want examples here are a few that I dug up in just a couple of minutes in the first weapon tables in both Fourth Edition and ARSE, I'm not going to be bothered to dig up more.
Katana 1,000
vs Monosword 750
The monosword is actually a better deal according to the rules because it is a one-handed weapon where-as the Katana is two-handed. The Katana is slightly easier to get ahold of though.
Katar 750 vs Kriss 1,000
Not only does the katar have better stats, it is cheaper and easier to find then the kriss.
Katana 1,000
vs Monosword 750 The monosword is actually a better deal according to the rules because it is a one-handed weapon where-as the Katana is two-handed. The Katana is slightly easier to get ahold of though.
Katar 750
vs Kriss 1,000 Not only does the katar have better stats, it is cheaper and easier to find then the kriss.
Not to mention, some weapons may be popular because they're cheap, and raising the price is counterproductive. The Ares Predator, for example, is on top of the world not only because it's such a good weapon but because it's such a great value; it's actually cheaper to buy a Predator IV than it is to purchase a universal external smartgun attachment.
| QUOTE (cryptoknight) |
| Ok following that then, why does H&K exist? Somebody has to own them or they'd lose out to Ares ability to Walmart them to death. If they don't occupy a niche that keeps them in business, and there's a Mega corp clone equivalent to anything they can make, why are they still in business? |
Partially because the writers are clueless. For example, Military Armament Corporation went out of business decades ago partially because they produced what has been acclaimed, by several different experts on automatic weapons, as the worst SMGs even made by anyone. That's the MAC-10 and MAC-11, designed by Gordon B. Ingram. Their opinion on the best differed greatly, but the worst was an easy choice.
HK (in the early-mid 90s) was bought by British Aerospace but still operated under the HK name after the G11 debacle bankrupted them. They are now a seperate company again IIRC.
Remington is actually now owned by huge investment firm Cerberus Capital Management, who also own a signficant fraction of the rest of the US firearms industry. All still operate under their own name.
Brand names have a huge amount of value.
And people don't buy guns based mostly on price. HK is hugely expensive these days, but they are the epitome of German Engineering.
Saeder-Krupp was mentioned as owning the HK brand name in one of the 2nd or 3rd edition books. Ares owns Colt and the AMT brand names. I believe Renraku or Fuchi owned Ruger back in the day, but I don't know if anybody does now.
I think there a some possibilities to stay independent as a small corp like H&K:
They make good products and many corps security and many armies use H&K Weapons, so they have established a wide branch of costumers thought the corp sector. If 1 corp tries to buy out H&K, 5 other corps will act to prevent this from happen, because they don't want do buy there Weapon from their competitor.
It's like the Bismark foreign policy, if you are necessary for many corps, they will protect you to maintain the status quo.
cya
Tycho
They make good products and many corps security and many armies use H&K Weapons, so they have established a wide branch of costumers thought the corp sector. If 1 corp tries to buy out H&K, 5 other corps will act to prevent this from happen, because they don't want do buy there Weapon from their competitor.
It's like the Bismark foreign policy, if you are necessary for many corps, they will protect you to maintain the status quo.
cya
Tycho
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Katana 1,000 vs Monosword 750 The monosword is actually a better deal according to the rules because it is a one-handed weapon where-as the Katana is two-handed. The Katana is slightly easier to get ahold of though. |
I suspect the Katana is there because it's a holdover from previous editions of SR, where the Japan influence in the setting was much more pronounced that SR4.
The Katana, even then, is a weapon for the traditionalist, and is a weapon of beauty and elegance - not just a sword with an extremely sharp edge [a 1 thousand year old blade would still be able to slice a man in two, I believe].
| QUOTE (kzt) | ||
Partially because the writers are clueless. For example, Military Armament Corporation went out of business decades ago partially because they produced what has been acclaimed, by several different experts on automatic weapons, as the worst SMGs even made by anyone. That's the MAC-10 and MAC-11, designed by Gordon B. Ingram. Their opinion on the best differed greatly, but the worst was an easy choice. HK (in the early-mid 90s) was bought by British Aerospace but still operated under the HK name after the G11 debacle bankrupted them. They are now a seperate company again IIRC. Remington is actually now owned by huge investment firm Cerberus Capital Management, who also own a signficant fraction of the rest of the US firearms industry. All still operate under their own name. Brand names have a huge amount of value. And people don't buy guns based mostly on price. HK is hugely expensive these days, but they are the epitome of German Engineering. |
This is my take on it as well, brand names still exists even if they're not independent. For instance, the most popular Chocolate brand in my country (Freia) was bought by the Kraft Foods corporation, but they still use the brand and most of the same employees and factories to produce the chocolate. And you have to read very fine lines to see who actually owns the products, as the Kraft name means very little to most of my countrymen.
This fits even better in SR, where megacorps supposedly has bought up almost everything.
| QUOTE (Adarael) |
| Saeder-Krupp was mentioned as owning the HK brand name in one of the 2nd or 3rd edition books. Ares owns Colt and the AMT brand names. I believe Renraku or Fuchi owned Ruger back in the day, but I don't know if anybody does now. |
Ever since I hang around DSF, and every time this particular topic springs up, someone have been saying there's a mention somewhere of Saeder-Krupp owning Heckler & Koch. Ever since, nobody ever brought the precise reference. Having myself skimmed a lot of SR books for corporate infos, I never saw that one. My best guess would be the Street Samurai Catalog or one of the German-only sourcebooks, but my personal opinion is that one falls in the "common misconception" category. The same goes for Colt and Ruger BTW.
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| HK (in the early-mid 90s) was bought by British Aerospace but still operated under the HK name after the G11 debacle bankrupted them. They are now a seperate company again IIRC. Remington is actually now owned by huge investment firm Cerberus Capital Management, who also own a signficant fraction of the rest of the US firearms industry. All still operate under their own name. Brand names have a huge amount of value. And people don't buy guns based mostly on price. HK is hugely expensive these days, but they are the epitome of German Engineering. |
That's the point of my question... can I assume that perhaps Ares has wholly owned subsidiaries such as Colt and H&K?
| QUOTE (Adarael) |
| Saeder-Krupp was mentioned as owning the HK brand name in one of the 2nd or 3rd edition books. Ares owns Colt and the AMT brand names. I believe Renraku or Fuchi owned Ruger back in the day, but I don't know if anybody does now. |
Aha... I knew I remembered that somewhere... I was vainly digging through the corp download trying to confirm my suspicions...
| QUOTE (Nath) |
| My best guess would be the Street Samurai Catalog or one of the German-only sourcebooks, but my personal opinion is that one falls in the "common misconception" category. |
The only case of explicit statement of arms manufacturer ownership from any German book I know is this:
Ruhrmetall owns Carl Walther (subsidiary) that in turn owns Mauser (subsidiary) and Luger (brand name).
I don't know why I remember this, but I do remember that there's some fluff in the old, glorious Corporate Shadowfiles saying that Monobe Corporation owns Fabrique Nationale, manufacturers of the FN-HAR, that unloved offspring of the assault rifle class.
Maybe that's also where the SK-H&K connection comes from, but I wouldn't swear by it.
Could just be that I think that because the book goes to such great lengths to drive home how badass Lowfyr is...
@kzt: "Cerberus Capital Management"?! That's gotta be one of the coolest company-names ever! With a name that like that, nobody ever expects you to have some secret army training in your secret ungerground base to carry out your secret plans for world domination...
Maybe that's also where the SK-H&K connection comes from, but I wouldn't swear by it.
Could just be that I think that because the book goes to such great lengths to drive home how badass Lowfyr is...
@kzt: "Cerberus Capital Management"?! That's gotta be one of the coolest company-names ever! With a name that like that, nobody ever expects you to have some secret army training in your secret ungerground base to carry out your secret plans for world domination...
Of course there's no reason why over the years these trade names couldn't have been owned by different Megas.
| QUOTE (djinni) | ||
you have to remember that in shadowrun its not business that prevails its quality of product. people don't buy something because its trendy... or the new tech wiz gadget that doesn't even work. they buy it because it works... H&K just makes things "better" |
I have to agree with that in real life.
I personally have a HK mp5 clone made by a third party vendor. They got the license to make it, etc. But it's not an HK brand gun, so it has a lower price than a real HK one (this also includes resale value too). Those will be more and also my friend who owns both types says that the HK one is better too. Especially when you really stress it by slapping in the full auto pack and well, the clone ones needed parts replacement from the wear, whereas the HK one is still fine after going through lots of rounds.
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