So, as the tag line reads, I'm trying to cook up a positive quality for a player who's character grew up in a multilingual society. Normally, I just say to buy all the language skills seperately, but it is a part of his background and feels like it would really "make" his character. I'll applaud him, because he could have just as easily been an adept and taken linguistics, but he opted for the harder route.
This is what I have so far:
Positive Quality: Polyglot: Cost (see below)
Characters with the Polyglot quality grew up in a multilingual society and adapted to the day-to-day language usage. As a result, the character receives multiple native languages. This quality may only be taken at character generation.
2 Languages: ? BP
3 Languages: ? BP
Now, I don't have any real qualms with the quality itself, yay for the player choosing to do something original that didn't involve a cheap way of eeking out combat dice. My only problem is assigning this a BP value. I'd like to go with something that isn't prohibitive, considering they are just languages, but is also not so great that every player would want to be a polyglot.
The other alternative system i considered is letting the quality reduce the cost (at chargen only) for picking up languages, down to a 2 for one basis (using freebie points) and down to 1 BP respectively.
What do you guys think would be the most balanced option?
Full Version: Positive Quality: Polyglot
| QUOTE (ruknabard) |
| 2 Languages: ? BP 3 Languages: ? BP |
I'd just charge 5 and 10 BP respectively.
Since langs cap at 6 (I think Native would be considered 7 ie free aptitude maxed?)
Doing 5 and 10 would basically be a 5 BP Quality for 16 BP of Languages
They are just languages, so relatively harmless. But I'd be more inclined to say 10 BP, will grant him (+2) bonuses in learning languages, and will grant him basically aptitude in all languages. Once reaching 7, they become Native. Whether you keep the double cost on the 7th rank is up to you, I'd use it because being Native doesn't increase your dice pool it gets rid of the use of a dice pool.
So he could use his 8 freebie Int/Log points for another Native language, or spend out the 16 BP outside of his freebie. And in game he still gets a bonus to reduce the time in learning new languages.
EDIT: put in support of double cost for 7th rating in language
On further thought instead of bonus to learning, probably a reduced karma cost after chargen. Basically -2 from (min 1) cost of raising a language. Similar to the cyberware (can't remember the name).
Doing 5 and 10 would basically be a 5 BP Quality for 16 BP of Languages
They are just languages, so relatively harmless. But I'd be more inclined to say 10 BP, will grant him (+2) bonuses in learning languages, and will grant him basically aptitude in all languages. Once reaching 7, they become Native. Whether you keep the double cost on the 7th rank is up to you, I'd use it because being Native doesn't increase your dice pool it gets rid of the use of a dice pool.
So he could use his 8 freebie Int/Log points for another Native language, or spend out the 16 BP outside of his freebie. And in game he still gets a bonus to reduce the time in learning new languages.
EDIT: put in support of double cost for 7th rating in language
On further thought instead of bonus to learning, probably a reduced karma cost after chargen. Basically -2 from (min 1) cost of raising a language. Similar to the cyberware (can't remember the name).
| QUOTE (Nightwalker450) |
| Doing 5 and 10 would basically be a 5 BP to 16 BP ratio? |
But takes up some of your precious Quality points at chargen. I wouldn't allow this Quality to be bought post-chargen though.
Even though post char-gen it costs double the BP in karma???
Post chargen a new native language would be 2+2+3+4+5+6+(7*2) or 36 karma, which if it was just "New Native Language for 5 BP", you would only pay 10 karma.
First of all, native != 7. That would be saying that every native speaker of a language is its undisputed master. That's not correct. Native speakers get words and grammar wrong all the time. Native = native, as in you never need to make a test to speak, read, or write the language. It's not the same as legendary.
Second of all, there's no real purpose to this quality. If someone grew up speaking two languages, just assign one of the languages as their native, and let them take the other at 6. I don't remember if there's a cap to how many languages at 6 you can know, but as the GM if someone wanted their character to grow up speaking 2 or 3 languages, I'd let them know all of those languages at 6. But their bg would have to indicate that they came from a place with multiple official languages, not that they were simply exposed to more than one.
Second of all, there's no real purpose to this quality. If someone grew up speaking two languages, just assign one of the languages as their native, and let them take the other at 6. I don't remember if there's a cap to how many languages at 6 you can know, but as the GM if someone wanted their character to grow up speaking 2 or 3 languages, I'd let them know all of those languages at 6. But their bg would have to indicate that they came from a place with multiple official languages, not that they were simply exposed to more than one.
I just used 7 to place a value on a Native language. Native is actually infinite, because at Native you don't roll dice for that language. Native is far more powerful than a 7 rating is. Not saying thats how it really is, but thats how the game treats it.
Language skill level cap Social Tests.
You might also look at the quality giving +2 for any non native language test.
You might also look at the quality giving +2 for any non native language test.
Native speakers should be required to make tests sometime. I can certainly imagine a native English barrens ganger staring blankly at an old book and musing "whatver drek this Shake-Spear guy was high on, I want some."
I am in favor of this quality being useless after character generation, the way I see it is that a character would have picked these languages up while young/growing up...I don't see a language being considered "native" if they're picking it up later in life, then its just a language skill like any other.
I do think that having another "native" language is a distinct advantage, given that native langs don't have the charisma skill cap like others. I think that 5 and 10 BP for one and two languages (respectively) sounds pretty fair, given they'd still have to purchase the langs with BP...in other words I think it should act like an aptitude that also releases the "one knowledge skill at 6 at chargen" specifically for those languages.
That sound fair to everyone?
I do think that having another "native" language is a distinct advantage, given that native langs don't have the charisma skill cap like others. I think that 5 and 10 BP for one and two languages (respectively) sounds pretty fair, given they'd still have to purchase the langs with BP...in other words I think it should act like an aptitude that also releases the "one knowledge skill at 6 at chargen" specifically for those languages.
That sound fair to everyone?
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Native speakers should be required to make tests sometime. I can certainly imagine a native English barrens ganger staring blankly at an old book and musing "whatver drek this Shake-Spear guy was high on, I want some." |
thats if he is literate in the first place...
in a world where you can talk to a computer and get correct responses and actions, being able to read is no longer a requirement...
Understanding shakespeare would be a Literature Test (16th Century or Prose specialization). Could be logic or intuition based depending on how you gained the knowledge. The language isn't what's preventing you from understanding it, its your familiarity with the subject. Language just caps your skill.
As to ruknabard, if he has to buy the language up to 6 anyways, its only going to be useful if they want more than 2 Native Languages, or if they want some other knowledge above 4. In order to justify a BP cost for the quality it has to have more use beyond chargen, I can't think of any qualities that only apply to chargen right now. The largest difficulty with a language based quality is that languages have 3 different costs, Int/Log free points, BP's, and karma. For balance you'd have to consider he'll be using BP's not free points to get the extra languages, I consider the Int/Log points bonuses not part of point spending actually. So his 1 language costs 17 BP for a single "Native" language. Unless he's a character with really high int/logic and he's just trying to get more out of his bonus points than just dice (ie. free pass for social tests on multiple languages)
For this, i'm thinking you don't want to mess with a quality at all, let him buy his languages to 6 that he wants, and let it pass on grounds of character concept. Sometimes its easier to waive the rules then create new ones.
As to ruknabard, if he has to buy the language up to 6 anyways, its only going to be useful if they want more than 2 Native Languages, or if they want some other knowledge above 4. In order to justify a BP cost for the quality it has to have more use beyond chargen, I can't think of any qualities that only apply to chargen right now. The largest difficulty with a language based quality is that languages have 3 different costs, Int/Log free points, BP's, and karma. For balance you'd have to consider he'll be using BP's not free points to get the extra languages, I consider the Int/Log points bonuses not part of point spending actually. So his 1 language costs 17 BP for a single "Native" language. Unless he's a character with really high int/logic and he's just trying to get more out of his bonus points than just dice (ie. free pass for social tests on multiple languages)
For this, i'm thinking you don't want to mess with a quality at all, let him buy his languages to 6 that he wants, and let it pass on grounds of character concept. Sometimes its easier to waive the rules then create new ones.
| QUOTE (ixombie) |
| First of all, native != 7. That would be saying that every native speaker of a language is its undisputed master. That's not correct. Native speakers get words and grammar wrong all the time. Native = native, as in you never need to make a test to speak, read, or write the language. It's not the same as legendary. Second of all, there's no real purpose to this quality. If someone grew up speaking two languages, just assign one of the languages as their native, and let them take the other at 6. I don't remember if there's a cap to how many languages at 6 you can know, but as the GM if someone wanted their character to grow up speaking 2 or 3 languages, I'd let them know all of those languages at 6. But their bg would have to indicate that they came from a place with multiple official languages, not that they were simply exposed to more than one. |
I totally agree. I know MANY people that grew up in the US, are way past their 30's, never learned any language other than American English and STILL barely qualify as having 3 in the language skill.
Just because you are a native speaking doesn't mean you have a masterful grasp of the language. My in-laws are from the Carolinas, and between their lack of formal education and considerable accent, I often times can't understand what they are trying to communicate, regardless of the fact that we are all native speakers of English.
I would much prefer speaking with a foreigner who knows English at 7 (fuck...or even English at 4), than them. And I'd probably get more mileage out of the conversation.
Speaking of Language levels, I pilfered the following from a post that showed up on Dumpshock quite a while back. Though I apologize in advance for not knowing the name of the original poster
| QUOTE (UnknownDumpshocker) |
Language Skill Levels No Rating: Unaware. The character would have to be positively autistic, or raised by wolves. A lack of even basic body langauge or "world-wide" cultural references ("Combat Mage: TNG, now in 150 languages!") 0: Untrained. Has never had a class on the language, but has probably overheard it at least a few times. Knows a few common phrases and words, especially those that have made it into popular advertising memes ("Yo quiero StufferBell!") 1: Beginner. Is able to use the language at an extremely basic functional level. This includes all the things you are typically taught as a first-year language student -- how to ask where the restroom is, or how to ask for directions to a given destination or order from a menu. In 2070's, may also include such helpful situations as "Put your hands where I can see them" and "Transmit your SIN or we'll fire on your vehicle" 2: Novice. Is able to use the language in everyday situations, though haltingly. Common conversational topics, such as the traffic, the weather, etc., are generally able to be understood both speaking and listening. Conversations about more esoteric subjects are more difficult or even impossible. No one is going to mistake the novice as a native speaker, but his meaning is likely to be understood. 3: Professional. Is able to use the language regularly in the line of work. A wage slave with a language skill of 3 would not have difficulty interacting with his co-workers within the context of his job. Other than a few humorous misunderstandings, the language barrier doesn't interfere with the ability to get a task completed at this level. For more poetic expression, or for topics outside a character's day to day activities, conversations will be halting at best. This level includes some understanding of some colloquialisms. A character with a "Professional" level in a language could potentially hire themselves out as a low-paid translator, though the occasional mis-communication might result. 4: Veteran. Is able to use the language fluidly and in a wide array of topics. A veteran is often mistaken for a native speaker. A veteran may run into difficulties translating very old or obscure works, or understanding slang and colloquialisms significantly different than the area in which the character studied. At this level of language skill, the character has sufficient vocabulary and understanding of language structure to (if they are so inclined) form reasonable poetry. A "Veteran" level of language allows a character to act as a skilled translator; translating most topics without difficulty. 5: Expert. Is able to speak fluidly on even unfamiliar subjects, and understand dialects and obscure cultural references. Can often relate the derivation and history of words and sayings, and can translate old and obscure works without difficulty. An "Expert" language speaker can hire out as a translator to important positions, such as CEO's visiting their extra-territorial holdings. Experts are seldom identified as non-native speakers. 6: Elite Is a skilled wordsmith in the given language, perhaps even a speech writer or novelist. Can recite quotes from many authors who wrote in this language, and discuss obscure language-related topics. An "Elite" level of language puts the character far above the usual "native speaker" in knowledge of their language. Such a character may be a skilled ambassador to a foreign power. 7: Legendary Able to translate A Void without use of a thesaurus, and in doing so keep with the original 'no letter e' quirk. |
I'm not sure exactly how they work, but don't forget that you can always use a lingua soft for most of your needs. That limits the usefulness of this quality so I'd simply assign it 5 bp's per extra language. It's use would be rather limited because of the BP cost and limit on qualities.
hmm, isnt one of the big limiters with chipped skills that edge cant come out and play?
how does that relate to inguasofts i wonder...
how does that relate to inguasofts i wonder...
and how often do you need to add edge to a language roll?
not a language roll directly, but maybe a persuasion roll while using a non-native language? 
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Feb 3 2008, 01:26 PM) 
not a language roll directly, but maybe a persuasion roll while using a non-native language?
The Social skill rating itself might be limited to the level of the language, but that in no way restricts the use of Edge on the persuasion test (or any additional dice pool modifiers).
so using linguasoft is less of a limiter then using other skillsofts...
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Feb 3 2008, 02:18 PM)
so using linguasoft is less of a limiter then using other skillsofts...
Well, technically Linguasofts are not Skillsofts, seeing as they do not require Skillwires to use, and languages are not considered Active Skills. They are more akin to Knowsofts in that regard.
I changed my mind about the quality. I've decide to go with:
Positive Quality: Polyglot: Cost 5
Characters with the Polyglot quality grew up in a multilingual society and adapted to the day-to-day language usage. As a result, the character not only (likely) speaks multiple languages with fluency, but also develops fluency in other languages more easily. Characters who possess this quality may use social skills in their non-native tongue as if they possessed a language skill of two ranks higher. (eg: if a character possess Spanish at rank 3 as a non-native language, they may use social skills of up to level 5, instead of the regular 3).
Just in case anyone else decided to use this in their game.
Positive Quality: Polyglot: Cost 5
Characters with the Polyglot quality grew up in a multilingual society and adapted to the day-to-day language usage. As a result, the character not only (likely) speaks multiple languages with fluency, but also develops fluency in other languages more easily. Characters who possess this quality may use social skills in their non-native tongue as if they possessed a language skill of two ranks higher. (eg: if a character possess Spanish at rank 3 as a non-native language, they may use social skills of up to level 5, instead of the regular 3).
Just in case anyone else decided to use this in their game.
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