Ok, I have a GM who is just crazy enough to let me be a Vampire PC and we, of course, referenced the Critter's Guide for the description of powers and such. Anyway, this is what we have come up with so far relating only to the question I will ask in a moment:
1) Must drink blood twice a day
2) Will lose a point of essence every two weeks
3) Can only have up to double essence (with no cyberwear = 12)
4) Enhanced Physical Attributes (Str, Body, or Quickness) with increase to chosen attribute by current essence and activated at will only twice a day.
#4 is the part at issue. My GM and I were wondering whether there should be a limit at all and should it be based on rage and animal instinct instead of as listed above? If so, should it affect ALL of the attributes and should it cost essence for me to do it (simulating the energy spent to be in a "bloodlust" state)? The reason we are bringing this up is because I am essentially taking in more essence than I'm losing and there is not much reason for me to "drain" someone during a mission. This proposal would force my character to have to feed in order to fuel the abilities as noted.
I know this sounds like "blood points" from WW Vampire and I am familiar with that system, but I think some essence loss is more appropriate than only being able to boost one skill a limited amount of times.
Any thoughts would be helpful and thanks in advance.
Full Version: Vampire Player Character System
| QUOTE (JudgeIto78 @ Nov 30 2003, 11:08 PM) |
| Ok, I have a GM who is just crazy enough to let me be a Vampire PC and we, of course, referenced the Critter's Guide for the description of powers and such. Anyway, this is what we have come up with so far relating only to the question I will ask in a moment: 1) Must drink blood twice a day 2) Will lose a point of essence every two weeks 3) Can only have up to double essence (with no cyberwear = 12) 4) Enhanced Physical Attributes (Str, Body, or Quickness) with increase to chosen attribute by current essence and activated at will only twice a day. #4 is the part at issue. My GM and I were wondering whether there should be a limit at all and should it be based on rage and animal instinct instead of as listed above? If so, should it affect ALL of the attributes and should it cost essence for me to do it (simulating the energy spent to be in a "bloodlust" state)? The reason we are bringing this up is because I am essentially taking in more essence than I'm losing and there is not much reason for me to "drain" someone during a mission. This proposal would force my character to have to feed in order to fuel the abilities as noted. I know this sounds like "blood points" from WW Vampire and I am familiar with that system, but I think some essence loss is more appropriate than only being able to boost one skill a limited amount of times. Any thoughts would be helpful and thanks in advance. |
There aren't really rules, per se, to playing a vampire, however, the powers and limitations are pretty much defined in the guide.
1) You really only need to drink once a month to keep your Essence up. Other than that, it's for the nutrition/psychological keeping.
2) You lose a point of Essence every month. Unless you're Nosferatu, in which case it's 1+1D6 months.
3) I've never heard of a max in Essence, but I've always seen it ruled down to 12 as a max just to keep them somewhat in line.
4) You can only enhance what it says you can enhance. If it lists nothing in paranthesis, then it enhances all physical attributes all the time, adding Essence to each. You lose no Essence for this.
Edit: If you're curious, I'm also starting a campaign where all the PCs are HMHVV infected. It's titled "Vampires of Seattle" and is in the "Welcome to the Shadows" section. Feel free to read up, some of it should be somewhat helpful, I hope.
Edit #2: Things with regeneration don't take 'ware too well. The moment you make the Deadly wound-appropriate cut to insert something, they usually seal right back up. I can see Vampiric Pawns taking it, but only if they keep it minimal, otherwise they might get fragged over when their Essence drops.
I can see it now...
Doctor: OK, we make the incision...
* Vampire regenerates.
Doctor: OK, we make...
* Vampire regenerates.
Doctor: OK, we make the incision... We make the incision... We make the fragging incision... Frag it!
* Vampire regenerates a few times during the process.
I know that the rules are as you state them, but we are modifying them so I don't "overshadow" the rest of the group. The GM and I took the real rules into account and wanted a way to limit them a bit.
I was wondering if you think the rage induced boost in attributes at the cost of some essence was more reasonable.
Sorry for the confusion.
I was wondering if you think the rage induced boost in attributes at the cost of some essence was more reasonable.
Sorry for the confusion.
There's some rules for playing vampires in some of the older Nagee's, to be exact, issue 9. Check there. Rules for PC ghouls appear in the Shadowrun Companion.
Well, for sake of simplicity, if he doesn't want you to overshadow, then he shouldn't let you play. That or make sure all the NPCs are armed with anti-Vampire stuff (Wood stakes, EX Explosive ammo, etc...) or are very racist towards you, thus hampering your ability in everything social.
For just changing the rules... Well, I don't know many other systems, and I personally think that if you're going to allow one character to be vampiric, let them all be to show how really not fun it is.
Edit: Also, if he really wants to take you down a notch, have him lower your Availability cap and your starting resources. Sure, you can still deal a maximum of 21M with a katana (6 Str + 12 Essence + 3 on katana), but can you afford much else?
For just changing the rules... Well, I don't know many other systems, and I personally think that if you're going to allow one character to be vampiric, let them all be to show how really not fun it is.
Edit: Also, if he really wants to take you down a notch, have him lower your Availability cap and your starting resources. Sure, you can still deal a maximum of 21M with a katana (6 Str + 12 Essence + 3 on katana), but can you afford much else?
| QUOTE (Neon Tiger) |
| There's some rules for playing vampires in some of the older Nagee's, to be exact, issue 9. Check there. Rules for PC ghouls appear in the Shadowrun Companion. |
I'm sorry, what is a "Nagee"? I've never heard of that?
The problem is vampires are just dangerous.
They're powerful and usually exceed the relative power of other PCs.
Now, the GM might float the other players some bennies by way of extra karma or free edges to balance things out, but after a certain point you're looking at a super heroes game.
-Siege
They're powerful and usually exceed the relative power of other PCs.
Now, the GM might float the other players some bennies by way of extra karma or free edges to balance things out, but after a certain point you're looking at a super heroes game.
-Siege
Unless it's all Vampires. In which case the NPCs carry shotguns that fire wood flechettes and pistols with EX Ex.
Or they just Fireball them to all else.
"Toasty!"
Or they just Fireball them to all else.
"Toasty!"
I agree with Siege - it's like allowing a player to play a free spirit ("Whoa! I can cast a Force 10 Fireball without any drain!!"): it's not a question of game balance but a matter of the power level running away on you if you're not careful.
Or there will be an amazing surge in sale of Combat Axes.
Let's face it -- if you find and down a vamp, are you going to leave it in any condition that could be charitably referred to as "intact?"
-Siege
"It's a trick; get an axe."
Let's face it -- if you find and down a vamp, are you going to leave it in any condition that could be charitably referred to as "intact?"
-Siege
"It's a trick; get an axe."
Still, I've had very powerful players limit themselves in role-playing fashions. A good group won't complain.
Or just very heavy objects that do lots of Stun, since they can't regenerate that.
*Hack, Deadly*
*Regen*
*Punch, Deadly*
*Unconscious*
*Hack, Deadly*
*Regen*
*Punch, Deadly*
*Unconscious*
| QUOTE (moosegod) |
| Still, I've had very powerful players limit themselves in role-playing fashions. A good group won't complain. |
In which case, it'll depend on the quality of the players involved.
Arguably, you could constrain the powers and bennies of a vampire to limit the inherent nastiness.
Or just assign a massive point value to being a vampire: 35 points to be a minor vamp?
Or be nasty and use rules similar to the "ghoul-ification" for surviving the shock of becoming a vamp.
-Siege
Ito there is in my group...
Balancing is very possibly the hardest part. That is why at starting I have a weapon focii...it is also why he allowed a starting character to use a 14S sniper rifle, and we have a mage once iniated. Shortly I will be able to get Naruto-esque Ninja powers (in the same way adepts get powers, they will be ninja powers...)
Other than that, the balances were set as they were for gamplay...If our GM allowed a full out Vamipre, what he would have to give to us and allow us to do...I shudder to think.
I should also mention he does have the gaseous form ability too, balance here is he can travel only with clothing(a little off the cannon, but reappearing nude for sake of gameplay didn't work out so well)...
I may also point out the other thing he(playing a she does) which is forced willpower rolls at the sight of blood. That about covers it I think.
The regeneration is definitely gross, but he hasn't gone down yet...only healed from M and lower wounds so far...like 9 times... Socially is a problem too, he is trying to keep it secret from the rest of the PCs, one has so far found out(the mage)
Balancing is very possibly the hardest part. That is why at starting I have a weapon focii...it is also why he allowed a starting character to use a 14S sniper rifle, and we have a mage once iniated. Shortly I will be able to get Naruto-esque Ninja powers (in the same way adepts get powers, they will be ninja powers...)
Other than that, the balances were set as they were for gamplay...If our GM allowed a full out Vamipre, what he would have to give to us and allow us to do...I shudder to think.
I should also mention he does have the gaseous form ability too, balance here is he can travel only with clothing(a little off the cannon, but reappearing nude for sake of gameplay didn't work out so well)...
I may also point out the other thing he(playing a she does) which is forced willpower rolls at the sight of blood. That about covers it I think.
The regeneration is definitely gross, but he hasn't gone down yet...only healed from M and lower wounds so far...like 9 times... Socially is a problem too, he is trying to keep it secret from the rest of the PCs, one has so far found out(the mage)
Could be. Make him addicted to a vampire's bite, so, even though he's a vampire, he needs it every few days to keep from getting a Mental wound from lack of his addiction-feed.
| QUOTE (tanka) |
| Or just very heavy objects that do lots of Stun, since they can't regenerate that. |
They sure can in my games, and every other game I've played where there are Vampires present. It is just silly to think that you could put a PAC round through the thing's chest and it'd shake it off, but it couldn't stand up to a punch.
| QUOTE (tanka) |
| Or just very heavy objects that do lots of Stun, since they can't regenerate that. *Hack, Deadly* *Regen* *Punch, Deadly* *Unconscious* |
The best of both worlds, beat them into unconsciousness and then hack them into pieces.
Incinerate the individual pieces and mix the ashes of each individual piece into a brick of still-wet concrete.
If the vamp's gonna regenerate from that, at least he's gonna have to work for it.
Of course, he'll be _really_ pissed if he does...
-Siege
| QUOTE (Critters @ p. 13-14) |
| ...To determine whether a creature dies from Deadly damage... |
Emphasis mine. It says specifically dies, not falls unconscious or anything close to that. Regeneration only works if the damage is Physical. Nothing Magical can heal stun, correct? Regeneration is Magical.
Anybody notice the reference to "John Carpenter's Vampires" on page 69 of that issue of NAGEE?
Not calling anyone out or anything, I just thought it was kind of cool.
Not calling anyone out or anything, I just thought it was kind of cool.
It seems odd for a guy with your nick to post in a thread about vampires without ranting...
I was thinking the same thing....especially given his SIG and all...
| QUOTE (tanka @ Nov 30 2003, 10:56 PM) |
| Emphasis mine. It says specifically dies, not falls unconscious or anything close to that. Regeneration only works if the damage is Physical. Nothing Magical can heal stun, correct? Regeneration is Magical. |
Critters, pp 13-14, Regeneration: "For any other result [*], the creature suffers the standard damage penalties [**] for the Combat Turn in which damage [***] was inflicted, but the damage vanishes at the beginning of the next Combat Turn."
* "For any other result" means exactly that. Whether they had to make the test upon receiving Deadly Physical damage or not, the rest of the statement kicks in. The sole exception is when they *do* suffer Deadly Physical damage and would normally die, in which case they have to roll 1D6 to see if they actually do.
** If it only applied when reaching Deadly Physical damage, this portion of the rule would make no sense, as they would be out of the picture anyway. On the Condition Monitor, Deadly has no wound penalties. You're simply unconscious.
*** The rule makes no comments stating that it only applies to Physical Damage. If it did, they would most certainly have said so as they do in all other cases, such as page 13 of Critters under "Possession."
Thanks Doc. 
| QUOTE (regeneration @ www.dictionary.com) |
|
I take Regeneration as applying to only Physical mainly due to this. The rulebooks are very slinky about whether or not Regeneration works with Deadly Stun. Myself and those I play with have always taken it as Physical only.
So you're saying they can regenerate a shotgun blast to the face, but if you whack 'em with a baseball bat or if the shotgun is loaded with stun shells they're goners?
Also, the rules aren't slinky at all about it. "Damage" when used by itself, has always meant any type of damage. When they mean only Physical Damage, they actually say "Physical Damage."
Also, the rules aren't slinky at all about it. "Damage" when used by itself, has always meant any type of damage. When they mean only Physical Damage, they actually say "Physical Damage."
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| So you're saying they can regenerate a shotgun blast to the face, but if you whack 'em with a baseball bat or if the shotgun is loaded with stun shells they're goners? Also, the rules aren't slinky at all about it. "Damage" when used by itself, has always meant any type of damage. When they mean only Physical Damage, they actually say "Physical Damage." |
Yes, that's what I'm saying. A Mage can Heal or Treat physical only, and can't do squat about stun. Regeneration is magical in nature, so why should it be able to bend the rules?
It doesn't bend the rules. Critters Powers aren't spells and magic, and aren't bound by their laws. Take Fading as an example. By the laws of magic, that's not possible; it's akin to teleportation, which is strictly forboden with magic.
If critters with regeneration are that easy to eliminate, it takes only the two easiest-to-cast and incredibly common spells in the game (Stunball and Stunbolt) to eliminate them. I'm positive that this isn't intended to be the case.
If critters with regeneration are that easy to eliminate, it takes only the two easiest-to-cast and incredibly common spells in the game (Stunball and Stunbolt) to eliminate them. I'm positive that this isn't intended to be the case.
While I do see your point, it also makes Vampire Mages tons more to deal with. They can cast Hellblast at Force 6 and not worry about it, because next turn they'll be up again with another one ready to go.
I remember a special rule somewhere relating to Shapeshifter magicians. Something about Drain being a special case that only regenerates one box per minute or something like that.
Your interpretation also causes some even weird anomolies to occur. Like a vampire who's in a bad way (Essence 5 or lower) casting a Force 6 spell that results in Deadly drain. If the vampire were "healthy," he'd be as good as dead... but because he's now hungry, distracted, and everything else, that drain -- which is now Physical -- regenerates at the end of the Turn? That's silly.
Your interpretation also causes some even weird anomolies to occur. Like a vampire who's in a bad way (Essence 5 or lower) casting a Force 6 spell that results in Deadly drain. If the vampire were "healthy," he'd be as good as dead... but because he's now hungry, distracted, and everything else, that drain -- which is now Physical -- regenerates at the end of the Turn? That's silly.
That would be much, much more appropriate. Perhaps that could be tied to Critter Regeneration, since, technically, Shapeshifters are Critters too.
I suppose they never did that because they never made Vampires playable PCs.
Edit: I also don't apply the Essence:Magic rule. That'd mean, at some spots, they'd have Magic Rating of 12, then a year later with no feedings, no Magic at all (And dead, of course). That'd be a bit tough to work around, because they'd need to learn every Force of a spell they wanted to use.
I suppose they never did that because they never made Vampires playable PCs.
Edit: I also don't apply the Essence:Magic rule. That'd mean, at some spots, they'd have Magic Rating of 12, then a year later with no feedings, no Magic at all (And dead, of course). That'd be a bit tough to work around, because they'd need to learn every Force of a spell they wanted to use.
No, you can always cast any spell you have at a lower Force rating. If you have Stunbolt 6, you can cast it at Force 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, or 1.
Also, don't you think it's odd that you have to go the route of creating a house rule to circumnavigate another house ruling?
Also, don't you think it's odd that you have to go the route of creating a house rule to circumnavigate another house ruling?
Didn't it say somewhere that you only know it at the force you have written down? If not, then I'm sorely mistaken.
So which house rule am I house ruling? Either I'm vastly confused or it's too early.
So which house rule am I house ruling? Either I'm vastly confused or it's too early.
1) That Regeneration only applies to Physical Deadly Damage. It doesn't, that's a house rule. "Damage" means any damage. "Physical Damage only" means only Physical Damage, just like it does in every other sourcebook. Critters is no exception, as shown in the Possession power just above it where it specifically mentions Physical Damage instead of Stun. Regeneration does have a special rule that applies whenever you take Deadly damage (in which case it doesn't differentiate between Physical or Stun either, as both can apply in some cases); if you take a Deadly wound, you have to do the 1D6 thing. Otherwise, and in any other case just as it states in the rule, damage is healed at the end of the turn.
2) Because of the problem your house rule causes by that interpretation (regarding low Essence and magic), you had to create another house rule to compensate for it.
And no, it doesn't say anywhere that you can only cast a spell at the Force you learned it. You just can't cast it at a higher Force. See page 178, "Force," in the core rulebook where it specifically mentions that.
2) Because of the problem your house rule causes by that interpretation (regarding low Essence and magic), you had to create another house rule to compensate for it.
And no, it doesn't say anywhere that you can only cast a spell at the Force you learned it. You just can't cast it at a higher Force. See page 178, "Force," in the core rulebook where it specifically mentions that.
Hm. Fair enough. However, it wasn't to houserule the houserule, it was to replace some of the variability. It helps if you look at it as an Adept Vampire instead. Every month, they'd lose one point of powers. Usually the ones they've taken most recently. So, because they don't get their Essence one month, they suddenly lose something? Sure, it helps to taper off some of the insanity of Vampires, but it just doesn't make sense!
| QUOTE (tanka) |
| Didn't it say somewhere that you only know it at the force you have written down? If not, then I'm sorely mistaken. So which house rule am I house ruling? Either I'm vastly confused or it's too early. |
No, spells can be "cast down".
You're maybe thinking of Matrix programs who must be used at their ratings.
No, I actually don't know Matrix rules very well. 
However, I probably just misread the ruling somewhere along the line, or got a really bad example from somebody.
However, I probably just misread the ruling somewhere along the line, or got a really bad example from somebody.
| QUOTE |
4) Enhanced Physical Attributes (Str, Body, or Quickness) with increase to chosen attribute by current essence and activated at will only twice a day. |
Twice per day?
I don't think I've seen anything in ShadowRun that operates X times per day. Everything is either use at will or has drain. Feel free to correct me
Regarding healling stun damage. I always thought the reason healing stun damage was not allowed was because of magic i.e. mage casts powerful spell, casts spell to remove stun, casts powerful spell and so forth. Repeat until bored
Actually, Nosferatu can only use their Enhanced Attributes (Body and Strength only) two times per day.
| QUOTE (leemur) |
| Twice per day? I don't think I've seen anything in ShadowRun that operates X times per day. Everything is either use at will or has drain. Feel free to correct me |
A lot of critter powers are like that.
The one time we allowed it, these are the rules we used:
Regen works on all types of damage BUT you have to spend an essence point per box to regenerate it. When you get below 3 essence you frenzy until you can raise your essence to 4 or more. I might be inclined if we did it now to make it an essence point per wound LEVEL just to make it that bit closer to the critter versions which don't have to spend anything at all.
Mages used their current essence rating for magic. Yes this means it fluctuates. Drain must be healed as per standard rules. This horrendous amount of power sounds horrid, but we extended all the above rules to cover NPC vampires as well and had the Tir create a special vampire mage/physad core within the ghosts with which to scare the players into behaving.
Other than that, they worked just like they did in the rules, with enhanced physical stats maintained with no extra effort, with the caveat that you had to split your essence over the 3 stats, and changing the amount on a particular stat took a complex action to 'refocus'.
These might not suit everyone, but they worked for us. Just thought I'd put the ideas in the mix.
Regen works on all types of damage BUT you have to spend an essence point per box to regenerate it. When you get below 3 essence you frenzy until you can raise your essence to 4 or more. I might be inclined if we did it now to make it an essence point per wound LEVEL just to make it that bit closer to the critter versions which don't have to spend anything at all.
Mages used their current essence rating for magic. Yes this means it fluctuates. Drain must be healed as per standard rules. This horrendous amount of power sounds horrid, but we extended all the above rules to cover NPC vampires as well and had the Tir create a special vampire mage/physad core within the ghosts with which to scare the players into behaving.
Other than that, they worked just like they did in the rules, with enhanced physical stats maintained with no extra effort, with the caveat that you had to split your essence over the 3 stats, and changing the amount on a particular stat took a complex action to 'refocus'.
These might not suit everyone, but they worked for us. Just thought I'd put the ideas in the mix.
| QUOTE (spotlite) |
| The one time we allowed it, these are the rules we used: Regen works on all types of damage BUT you have to spend an essence point per box to regenerate it. When you get below 3 essence you frenzy until you can raise your essence to 4 or more. I might be inclined if we did it now to make it an essence point per wound LEVEL just to make it that bit closer to the critter versions which don't have to spend anything at all. Mages used their current essence rating for magic. Yes this means it fluctuates. Drain must be healed as per standard rules. This horrendous amount of power sounds horrid, but we extended all the above rules to cover NPC vampires as well and had the Tir create a special vampire mage/physad core within the ghosts with which to scare the players into behaving. Other than that, they worked just like they did in the rules, with enhanced physical stats maintained with no extra effort, with the caveat that you had to split your essence over the 3 stats, and changing the amount on a particular stat took a complex action to 'refocus'. These might not suit everyone, but they worked for us. Just thought I'd put the ideas in the mix. |
Thanks Spotlite,
This was the kind of response I was looking for and I'm not sure how this thread got into the Regeneration question, but, amazingly enough, that has actually been educational for me to know how much my character can stand before going down.
Anyway, my Gm and I will look into doing something like this for my character.
Thanks again.
This is how I would run a Vampire PC:
Firstly, run regeneration as stated for shapeshifters in SC (this is how I run regeneration for all beings who has it).
Let him/her have all the powers and benefits, and drawbacks, of being a vampire.
While Magic shouldn't go up with Essence, it should go down with it - if Essence falls below the Magic rating, the Magic rating is temporarily lowered until the vampire can feed again. Maximum essence is twice of what the character's race normally has.
If you want to balance the vampire against rest of the characters, simply forbid the PC to make an awakened vampire. Without spells/adept powers and (more importantly) Masking, he/she isn't really all that unbalanced, since a vampire cannot have cyberware or bioware (except under extremely unusual conditions, maybe)
Also remember this - there is no reason any normal medical procedures should work on a vampire. If it fails those regeneration rolls it has to rely on magic healing. Mist Form leaves the vampire without clothes or gear. Sure, it gets alot of nifty powers instead - but those come with a number of drawbacks.
Firstly, run regeneration as stated for shapeshifters in SC (this is how I run regeneration for all beings who has it).
Let him/her have all the powers and benefits, and drawbacks, of being a vampire.
While Magic shouldn't go up with Essence, it should go down with it - if Essence falls below the Magic rating, the Magic rating is temporarily lowered until the vampire can feed again. Maximum essence is twice of what the character's race normally has.
If you want to balance the vampire against rest of the characters, simply forbid the PC to make an awakened vampire. Without spells/adept powers and (more importantly) Masking, he/she isn't really all that unbalanced, since a vampire cannot have cyberware or bioware (except under extremely unusual conditions, maybe)
Also remember this - there is no reason any normal medical procedures should work on a vampire. If it fails those regeneration rolls it has to rely on magic healing. Mist Form leaves the vampire without clothes or gear. Sure, it gets alot of nifty powers instead - but those come with a number of drawbacks.
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