Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: New Character Critiques
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Sir_Psycho
My search-fu was not strong, so I've decided to create this once and for all. Whether it's your first character build, newbie, or your latest 16 dice pool min-max-mon with dikoted cyber-hez, post it up for appreciation, suggestions, kudos, death threats, madlulz, optimizing and balancing, etc. Try to include at least a blurb on RP.

This is my current draught for "Blackie Pilger". He's my first ever Sr4 build. He's a photojournalist with the skillset of a covert ops spec/hacker. I warn you, it's in draught form, so it's not a pretty character sheet.

I wrote this to give my potential team-mates an idea of what I was building, it's bad and tokenistic biggrin.gif :
"Ok chum there's this shady breeder, no offense, making his way into the plex. Black summich? Pillar? Black Pillgy? Oh yeah, Pilger. Blackie Pilger. An alias, says the net. Don't know much. He's a radical photojournalist, puts wordy pieces and hush-hush snaps together from his snoop biz that he's been doing for years. Started young in Japan, 'cept he's 'alf of a semite, apparently. Done big pieces in Hong Kong, The Phillipines, bit o' biz in Europe for Anarchist Black Cross in Europe, does anti-corp write ups, bolshy faggot. Even went to france, but them aristos scared him away. Tight bunch, them. Anyway, I don't know if you remember, it barely made the trix, this blogger, Vaskiadis, Ork with huge hez, he must have been, because they found him rotting in a stormwater drain down in Santa Monica, electrical burns and a double-tap to his forehead. His blog, L.A. Veritas, was pretty big amongst the media-savvy kids here in L.A., didn't toe the corporate media line, much, looks like it got him in the end. Vut! Getting way off track here. Point is, chummer, if you want, I can put you in touch, he might be good for something coming up, the boy can hack, learned in Japan, and he can get into places the snoops you run with flashing their fake Horizon badge and batting their eyelashes can't. He's anti-social and neurotic, and he's not a pitfighter, but the kid understands the media, and despite his hard-on for the truth, he's a journalist, and that goes far in this town."


(if you're in JohnathanC's "Recruiting for an Experiment" game, then you probably shouldn't read this unless he approves table-talk.)
[ Spoiler ]


I've got five points left, which I was going to use to get a mutual contact with the rest of the team in JohnC's game. But I'm also considering using it to buy some more things, like maybe some drones, extra commlink security, some more softs. I also haven't modified my attributes or figured out my dicepools properly. I'm also considering taking another mild addiction to BTLs (Cool White moodchips probably), and an incompetence in something like automatics, unless that means that I lose dice when being fired on by some-one with an automatic. That would suck.
Abbandon
Can't help. I've been retouching alot of my characters for the Jonathan's game heh. I dont care if you look at mine though. But you potential JohnC players not to look so....I guess I hope you make it heh.
ElFenrir
Seems pretty cool; ill eat breakfast than be able to critique more. But you seem to have all of the ground covered for a sneaky journalist-hacker(artisan: photo editing is a nice touch, and can certainly come in handy). He's got a decent set of stats(Intuition does for some reason strike me as the Journalistic attribute; same thing with Private Investigators), but he's got a decent set of stats and skills.

5 points? Hmm..maybe Con a bit higher? Seems like he should be able to pull the wool over peoples eyes asap ''really, officer, im here because im gathering trash for recycling'', and so on. Another point to Contact after that is always good, or more Resources. Maybe a few more pieces of information gear, unless his hacking takes care of that(spider drones for this guy maybe?)

OH! And your Knowledge skills...they only cost 1 for 1! So you actually have 10 points left. (A specialization only costs 1 point also of Knowledge Skills). So you can go a little crazier with them. smile.gif

I like the idea. Im not going to comment on the hacking stuff, because i have yet to really delve into it in SR4; most i've played was someone with a couple points of Data Search, and most i've ever made was a combat hacker to test the waters. Ill let more of an expert handle that one.

Hehe, i like the idea of this thread; it lets everyone pimp their favorites. When i return, i'll post up this one guy of mine. grinbig.gif



Fortune
It seems to me that you have not paid for the Edge of 3 ...

QUOTE
Attributes: 170
Special Att: 0
...
Body: 2
Agility: 5
Reaction: 4
Strength: 1 (3)
Charisma: 2
Intuition: 5
Logic: 3
Willpower: 3

Edge: 3
ixombie
For a low body character, it's dodge or die! But you didn't take dodge. So I'm afraid it's going to be: die! Sure you have gymnastics, but not at a level where it's really going to save your ass.
ElFenrir
To comment on above: he rolls 8 dice in a Gymnastics dodge. That's pretty good. He could take, say Dodge(Ranged) at 2(+2) for 10 BP, but he'd get only 6 dice for melee, and 8 again for ranged anyway. I'd say he'd be ok with Gymnastics(unless there is something im not sure about it.)

And now:

here goes my contribution.

This character is built using our houserules: (the Cha x2 Free Contact Points, NO Availability Limit, and 400 BP), so he is going to be a little above the average starting character(basically, we found that in our experiences, not limiting Availability and 400 BPs is roughly like a 450 BP character and book Availability.) We also took the old SR3 Companion Edges and Flaws, and converted their point value to SR4, so we have a much bigger pool to choose from.

The concept, is basically, caused by me drinking too much caffiene and playing entirely too much Castlevania, and to a lesser extent, Devil May Cry. And I shamelessly admit this. grinbig.gif I thought it would be badass to play a ''hunter of naughty stuff'', but also influenced by an old campaign i was in...going beyond 'typical'' Paranormal Critters and moving onto things like ghouls(the ones who are doing, like, Really Bad Things...because aren't ghouls protected in some areas?), Banshees, Wendigos, Devil Rats, of course, Vampires, evil Spirits, metaplanar demons(if they exist, i guess they are just another form of spirits), Voodoo zombies, among other scary stuff. He's also willing to take jobs against metahumanity who is summoning or creating things like this, hence skills like Intimidation.

My catch was; I wanted him mundane. The other catch was; i wanted him a cybered mundane. I realize this puts him at an automatic disadvantage against some of those nasties; he's going to have to utilize weaknesses/allergies to harm certain things; and just to be able to deal enough damage in a hit to break through some of their defenses. Thus, i tweaked his Attributes and Dice Pools for combat rather high. In addition, i wanted him melee based with a bit of ranged(a suggestion a few threads ago to take Crossbows was a good one; they are easy to tip with different metals to take advantage of allergies, and hell, they are made of wood), and he is also Ambidexterous. I took the Chain Whip Exotic skill as a little shout-out to Castlevania; it can be utilized to grab and trip enemies to bring them in for a huge strike. Yeah, i wanted some stylish fighting for him.

Again, this character is pretty powerful if put into a typical campaign; but he's more meant for a 400 BP, but a little more over the top, kind of thing.

I could, with some adjusting, turn him into a perfectly legal character if i really wanted to play him in someone else's campaign(drop the Muscle Augmentaion and toner from 3 to 2, drop the Suprathyroid, and i'd have few more resources or BPs to play with), and i'd probably hard-max his Strength in that case; this character depends on being able to penetrate abnormal defenses.

Ok, without further ado, get ready for a really long sheet with a few sub-spoiler sections in the spoiler section:

[ Spoiler ]


Yeah, a little cliche once again, but...i dunno, im never one to totally shun cliches. I don't mind meeting in a bar, i don't mind when someone plays a lone sniper, i don't mind when someone plays a studious mage, and i was due to make a more cliche guy after my past several characters. Yeah, so i wanted to play the 2070 bastard child of Trevor Belmont, Dante, and Yuri and Valentine from the game Shadow Hearts. In the end, he seems alot of fun, and i think in the proper campaign with our group he will be. RP-wise, as i brushed on, he's again a little brash, a little cocky, but still calculating in his attacks; he makes sure he's got the best advantage he can before facing off by doing some information gathering. For example: he's fighting something weak to Silver, out comes the silver knife and silver-tipped bolts. Wood? Breaks out the staff. Cold Iron? This is what the cold-iron boot spikes are for. He DOES have a protective streak to him, he's basically a good guy with yeah, a bit of a dark side; the Vindictive side to him can come out if someone wrongs him...and then he can be scary indeed. The 2 Charisma is played up as sometimes just being plain weird in his conversation topics and sometimes not particularly caring what he says. On his spare time, he enjoys books quite much; training, fine places to eat having a bit of wealth, seeing gigs at the local hole, creative weapons research and old videogames.

Final Synopsis: This character is made more for a bit higher-powered(but not completely uber super high, he is only 400 BP still), more 'videogame' esque, non traditional campaign. He doesn't have the skills(generally), for a ''straight up Shadowrunner'', nor is he interested particularly, in character, in ''sticking it to the Man'' (though he'll go after anyone trying to work with the Powers of Darkness™.) He's very powerful in his chosen things;i totally twinked him in certain areas and don't try to hide it, but his mundaneness, coupled with choice of occupation, and the fact some of the essence-suckers he fights can certainly ruin his day; and doubled again with the fact he chooses a more 'organic' weapons approach. in a way has the deck stacked against him; but hey, he likes a challenge. And yeah, ill be the first to admit: this character is somewhat a 'guilty pleasure' character. Im sure im not the only one who's made one. And there is ONE thing i havn't been able to come up with...a nickname for this guy!!

I also admit...i wanted to show one could create a pretty powerful character that still has lots of room to grow.

Soo...any ideas/comments/critiques? I edited and found a few mistakes already.
Fuchs
This is the hacker/secondary face I proposed for JonathanC's game set in L.A.

[ Spoiler ]
ElFenrir
Well, she certainly has the Face part down! 13 dice with Con and Etiquette can do just fine as a Primary face, even. Her Hacking skills seem pretty right good, too, with her, with 7-11 dice.

I like the take you did on all of the cosmetic ware; money spent toward RP is a cool thing. (and i didn't know they actually had rules for breast implants!) Those can seem to help disguise pretty well, also. Shock Gloves are nice for someone with a lower Strength, and the Predator is a good all around tool if needed. Silky Skin, i don't recall that from the SR3 days, is that a new addition?

Seems like a well balanced character; as you said not big in combat, but that isn't her main point anyway; she'd be wonderful hacker/face, she's got enough skill to handle both very well. I don't see any BP problems either. With 2 BP, hmm...well, it's extra contact points, an extra 10k to spend on something(Docwagon or something), or a specialization. Maybe a specialization of Disguise or Infiltration. 725 nuyen? Some little odds and ends like some good wine or something could work.

Why is she queasy on magic; any contact with New York Voodoun, or?

And(not character based), what is the program you used for that character sheet? I like it.

Im hoping this thread keeps going. I know there has to be alot of folks around to pimp characters. grinbig.gif

Fuchs
[ Spoiler ]


I did not use any program other than MS Word.
Rasumichin
@ ElFenrir :
Moving a point from LOG to WIL might just make sense, reflecting a monomanic guy who constantly deals with stuff he as a mundane cannot fully comprehend.
Would contribute to a slightly deranged, out-of-his-mind feel ("seen too much" and so on); don't know if that's what you are up to with this character, though.

Oh, and Transylvania is, iirc, in Romania, not Hungary.
Fuchs
@ElFenrir. Yes, higher Willpower would fit well, in my opinion - I can just see your guy, outclassed by the magical threats and spells and whatever, who just doesn't know when he should quit, and perseveres through sheer stubbornness. Maybe check if you can give him more edge, for those "do or die" tests.
ixombie
@ElFenrir: You're a critter hunter who's an expert with a chain whip, and an amateur with a crosswbow? Hello? twirl.gif If you wanna kill critters, you'll need to plunk them with heavy crossbow bolts that they're allergic to. Or, if they're immune to normal weapons, you'd better be hiding a rocket launcher or some stik-n-shok ammo somewhere on your character sheet... At least, if you're going to pour points into exotic melee weapon skill, take a monowhip! Think of the powergamers! frown.gif

In general, I think you need to tighten up your skills a bit more. There is no point to having exotic melee weapon AND blades AND archery AND throwing weapons AND unarmed combat. Any combination of 2 of those would let you have much higher pools and spend points in other, much needed areas. Like edge. A mundo critter hunter is going to NEED that edge.

And I would get better cyberware. In fact, I'm baffled as to how you managed to get so little utility out of 210k. You poured everything into bioware, which is nice, but it's more like the icing you put on top of the cyberware cake. Wires 1 is for chumps who don't like being alive. Suprathyroid glands are outside of chargen availability, as well. I can see why you'd want to keep your essence high, in case you fight an essence sucking critter, but I think a better tactic than keeping your essence really high would be to make yourself so badass that they won't be able to bite you. Being weak with a high essence, at the very least, is not going to go any better than being strong with a low essence.

Also, a critter hunter who has no weaponry that can hurt spirits ought to have a very high willpower. And probably the tai chi martial art too, since it gives a bonus to attacks of will.

Onto the positive qualities, I think there's a good reason why they ditched a lot of the "flaws" from SR3 companion. That's because they were "flaws," and not flaws. Come on, distinctive style? "My flaw is that I'm so cool people will recognize me." sleepy.gif And vindictive? "My flaw is that I'm a really venegeful baddas mofo." Not so much a criticism of your sheet, but of SR3 grinbig.gif


@Fuchs: I like DD overall. But since you're not combat capable, I would trim the fat and improve your hacking. If you can't fight, you'd better be a good enough hacker that you won't get into a stalemate against rating 4 IC. You should find the points for a Simsense Booster. You could find most of those points by getting rid of your whimpy lil gymnastics and unarmed skills. Gymnastics is redundant with dodge (unless you have some need to "dance" or "tumble,") and since you have dodge you don't really need unarmed for self defense. I would also break up the Cracking group and pump hacking to a 5 or 6, with specialization. Hacking is your bread and butter, and having 6(cool.gif for an important hacking operation is what makes you better than any agent could ever be. Cybercombat and electronic warfare, on the other hand, not so critical.
Sir_Psycho
I fixed the attribute inconsistency by dropping an agility point, sinking four more points into gear and buying myself a level 2 muscle toner. So now I'm better off for less points.
QUOTE (ixombie @ Feb 10 2008, 10:31 AM) *
For a low body character, it's dodge or die! But you didn't take dodge. So I'm afraid it's going to be: die! Sure you have gymnastics, but not at a level where it's really going to save your ass.

Can't I use Gymnastics as a replacement for dodge? Agility 4 (6) + Gymnastics 3 + 1 (balance augmenter - I figure a hand-stand flip out a window takes balance) + 1 (enhanced articulation) + Synthacardium 1 = 12 Dice.

I'm never actually played a SR4 game, so I'm not attuned to the dynamics. What are the chances I'll live if some-one shoots at me and I go for a full gymnastic dodge?

I roll 4 + 4 (6) for Infiltration. So that's ten. Hopefully I'm wearing my ruthenium (+4) and I'll be sticking to the shadows (Not sure what the pool modifier is for that). I was hoping to avoid getting shot at most of the time, but is that not enough dice? Also I thought there were some Electronic Warfare tricks I could do to help me out, like hacking sensory inputs, barrage jamming their PAN to screw up smartlinks and such? Or am I too much of a generalist to hope for that either?
Fortune
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Feb 11 2008, 01:17 PM) *
Can't I use Gymnastics as a replacement for dodge?


Only as long as you have some kind of melee skill. Gymnastics is useless in hand-to-hand defense without it.
HardSix
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Feb 10 2008, 05:18 PM) *
This is the hacker/secondary face I proposed for JonathanC's game set in L.A.

(rest snipped)

I uploaded some renders of DD, with “civilian clubbing clothes?, “runner meeting clothes? (second skin outfit) and “Run Clothes? (Jumpsuit):


If you don't mind Fuchs, what models & props did you use for the render of D.D.?

Thanks!
Fuchs
[ Spoiler ]
Fuchs
QUOTE (ixombie @ Feb 11 2008, 02:52 AM) *
@Fuchs: I like DD overall. But since you're not combat capable, I would trim the fat and improve your hacking. If you can't fight, you'd better be a good enough hacker that you won't get into a stalemate against rating 4 IC. You should find the points for a Simsense Booster. You could find most of those points by getting rid of your whimpy lil gymnastics and unarmed skills. Gymnastics is redundant with dodge (unless you have some need to "dance" or "tumble,") and since you have dodge you don't really need unarmed for self defense. I would also break up the Cracking group and pump hacking to a 5 or 6, with specialization. Hacking is your bread and butter, and having 6(cool.gif for an important hacking operation is what makes you better than any agent could ever be. Cybercombat and electronic warfare, on the other hand, not so critical.


[ Spoiler ]


How badly one gets shot often depends on the rest of the team - for good and ill. If there's a super-samurai able to kill off any opposition before they get a shot at the softer targets then one does not need that high defensive skills and stats. If the GM scales opposition to the most dangerous member of the team, one could end up killed as collateral damage without anyone noticing.
ElFenrir
Rasumichin, Fuchs: Hmm...the Log to Will point i think does make sense with my guy. Logic 2 isn't bad, at all and i can increase it with a few karma. I don't see him as stupid at all; but Logic 2, like Charisma, is more ''man on the street''. Perhaps he's been studying on his spare time to have early karma use.

ixombie: Well, thing is, as powerful as he is, i should have also mentioned that i wasn't going for a totally perfect build. (It's funny, the character i thought was overpowered, ends up being not as bad as i thought. i suppose i should be happy.)

Now, the skill selection? It's pure character. Yeah, i wanted style. The monowhip is overtaken(though it crossed my mind), i wanted him to be able to fight with no wepons if disarmed(high Unarmed Combat was a must then for the concept). The Blades were for how i wanted his style to use, well, swords and axes(and 14 dice to roll a combat axe strike...16 if i take the Reach dice in my favor, and doing 9P damage, should be enough to penetrate a _lot_ theoretically. Hell, his unarmed strikes nail for 7P, which is more than most adepts. Between hitting for 5P and 9P and having a lot of dice to stage up damage with, i think it works. Which is why i could leave the Archery at a fairly low level; with his external smartlink, the guy throws 13 dice with the thing. I suppose, though, i could take off a point of Throwing(again, that's a character thing), he would still have 10 dice to throw a silver spike or something with, and add another to Archery(which would give him 12/14 dice with smartlink). 1 die difference, but i guess every little bit helps. I'll think on that one.

and that 210,000 nuyen went _fast_. I was down to 57,000 by the end of it all. I actually wanted Titanium Bone Lacing; it's an extra 10k and i actually didn't go that insane with his gear(he could still afford the high life, fake ID, and all his stuff, since he didn't have ammo to worry about), which gave him an extra point yet to damage and damage soak.

The comment on spirits; from what i was reading about in SR4, Spirits have three forms; Astral(which they can't use to affect my guy, since he's a mundane and in the real world), Manifested(where they can't attack OR defend), and Materialized(where they can hurt each other).

And i never had a problem with Wired 1. (As for Superthyroid, remember, we don't use Availability, so it's kosher), and let's face it, it's a damn good piece of bioware. Ive taken wired 1 for many characters and lived just fine. In fact, Manifested spirits only have 2 initative passes(other stuff has more, i know). Oh, trust me when i say i'd have *liked* another pass...but it was just out of my realm of cash. To get Alphaware Wired 2 would have been 64,000, or an extra 42,000. I had 57,000 left(before gear), so i'd have to severely cut stuff down(15,000, after a vehicle, low lifestyle, and fake ID, wouldn't go far at all, even with his lowered costs of not having guns.)

Now, i do thank you for critiques; i put him up for that. Again, Willpower is getting upped and i'll have to readjust his Knowledge skills sadly, but he only loses 3 points, which isn't bad. I'll keep in mind some things you said about his skills; honestly, im thinking that he could afford to drop Infiltration...for now. He can still default to 7 dice, and while i would like that skill in the future...well, i was the one that said room to grow was nice, and 4 karma for the skill isn't bad(i want to keep the Tracking and Shadowing skills)...but i think a Tracking of 1(+2) will also be ok for now. 7 dice for a skill not many people have is pretty dandy. That frees up 8 BPs. I want to keep Negotations(even a slightly more eccentric/antisocial guy ought to know how to somewhat negotiate a contract), and Clubs 1(a stick of wood that deals Str/2P with a 2 reach on it, thrown with 11 dice after reach, would be fantastic for battling crap allergic to wood.)

Now, i have a choice here. A. I can use them for 40,000 resources...bringing my total to the full 250,000. Get Wired Reflexes 2(Alphaware)-which wouldn't be a problem, because even after spending 20,000k of his 57k on lifestyle, a fake id, and a vehicle, he had plenty left-instead of 3. His Essence would take a dive to 1.45, but he'd have 3 passes, and a 10 initative. (a 6 reaction to boot, but he already rolls 9 Gymnastics dice to dodge.) I would really consider this route, come to think of it.

Route number 2; dig up 2 more BPs from somewhere(a skill perhaps, i could lose the damn Wheeled spec from Pilot Ground or the Physical part of the Intimidation, since those are easy to buy later, once again), and bring Edge to 3, which is better than 2.

Im wondering which way would be better...one more Edge point, or one more Initative pass?

And of course, there is Option 3. Take the 8 BPs as said, get him the Wired 2 and 3 passes.

THEN...ditch one of either Shadowing(Tailing) or Tracking(Urban)..which would kind of suck...but im guessing i could sort of roll with one OR the other, for the time being, and then on top of that, lose a point in Throwing Weapons for the 2(and 10 dice, still), not add a point to Archery(keeping the linked 13 dice), but pool that with the 6 I save from one of those other skills...giving me 10, so i can have 3 passes, a 10 initative, AND a 3 Edge. (I kind of want to keep his social skills. Again, i don't want him to not be able to deal with people at least somewhat; and the Intimidation is for when he has to fight those people who are dealing with these underworld creatures.

Quick mention of SR3 flaws; they are flaws. Distinctive Style actually gives people dice to remember your character(making it hard to stay hidden), with SINNer, he's going to have to be careful when he delves into the more illegal stuff. Vindictive not a flaw? Ive seen entire adventures surrounding a Vindictive character and thei'r thirst for revenge(with the whole party teaming up to help!). So we kinda like the old flaws. We'd rotate GMing, and we had no problem with finding stuff to do with SR3 flaws. But to each their own, i guess. biggrin.gif

But i thank you for your comments. I know he's not the most minmaxed as he could have been, but he's almost where i want him to be.

Here are the readjusted parts(so far...im including in the removed skills...but not deciding what to spend the extra BPs on yet)


[ Spoiler ]


They aren't bad adjustments at all. I can see plenty of things i want to spend Karma on, from his Logic to Charisma to Skills to even Knowledge Skills. Again, thanks for comments, and feel free to comment on the adjustment.
Ryu
A stat shuffle you might consider is strength 3(7), intuition 5, willpower 5. Still significant close combat damage, better stealth and perception, better stun track.

Can I sell you on giving up the Exotic Weapon in favour of perception 5, Shadowing(Tailing) 2? Would make the hunter part stronger, and does much more than another close combat option (One that just happens to be inferior even to your unarmed attacks). 4 BP left.

Aluminum Bone Lacing does more for this char than I´ve considered possible so far. Still, go with your axes, unarmed combat with your skill and strength 7 is good enough. Buy Muscle Augmentation 4 and cyberears with damper and audio enhancers instead. Fluff-wise, I´d prefer a skin-enhancing augmentation for damage resistance, because you do not want to be scratched by some awakened critters. For a hunter, orthoskin + smart insulation is nice, but already clocking in at 42k. Don´t know where those could come from.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Feb 10 2008, 04:00 AM) *
Commlink:

Response Signal Firewall System Cost
4 4 3 4 $ 33,700.00
(includes progs/mods)

Skinlink Sim Module + Hot Sim/BTL
Programs:
Analyze 5
Browse 4
Command 6
Edit 6


Question: I thought that with Commlinks and the programs it runs, that a Rating 6 program running on a Commlink with a Response of 4 would only run as a rating 4 program.

Also, I'll put up my character tonight (400 BP Combat Mage)
DireRadiant
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Feb 11 2008, 11:51 AM) *
Question: I thought that with Commlinks and the programs it runs, that a Rating 6 program running on a Commlink with a Response of 4 would only run as a rating 4 program.


It's cheaper to go this route instead of improving both program rating and response, you just improve response post chargen.
ixombie
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Feb 11 2008, 03:08 AM) *
[ Spoiler ]


How badly one gets shot often depends on the rest of the team - for good and ill. If there's a super-samurai able to kill off any opposition before they get a shot at the softer targets then one does not need that high defensive skills and stats. If the GM scales opposition to the most dangerous member of the team, one could end up killed as collateral damage without anyone noticing.


IMO, a hacker MUST be better than an agent, or she's not worth the 5k it would cost to replace her. That's why you want a simsense booster. That's why you want hacking higher than 4. If you're a hacker who's just starting out, that might be a cool concept and all, but if you can't make mincemeat out of mid-level systems without even trying, you're not doing your team any favors. I know you're going for someone who isn't already an expert, but why set that in stone? Is it a dramatic, compelling element of your background that you're not very good at what you do yet? I don't see how... The game gives you 400 BP and allows you to have a skill at 6. What do you gain by not taking advantage of that? I just don't see how a worse character equates to one with a better background or more flavorful RP. It's a connection that a lot of people try to draw, and it's just not there.


@ElFenrir - I think you give the suprathyroid gland a lot more credit than it's due. +1 to all stats is sorta good in SR4. But remember, an extra die is only 1/3 of a hit. Considering the expense of a suprathyroid, those +1s are dearly bought. Suprathyroid was the king of SR3 bioware (ok, maybe vice-king, cuz enhanced articulation was better) because, compared to your max 1mil resources, it was VERY cheap for what it did. Now it isn't. At chargen, you should be looking to get the most bang for your buck. You can add nice utility pieces later, after you don't die.

Finally, if you're dead set on melee combat, you should wrangle up a copy of Arsenal. Martial arts are your friend.
Fuchs
Well, is it legal to buy a skill group at 3, and then raise a single skill to 5? Or raise it to 4 and specialise?
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Feb 11 2008, 05:33 PM) *
Well, is it legal to buy a skill group at 3, and then raise a single skill to 5? Or raise it to 4 and specialise?


At chargen, by RAW, it isn't.
However, it is houseruled often.
Makes sense not to disallow the option that someone first took broad-scale basic training and specialized later.
I'd allow or even recommend it, since it counteracts SR4s tendency towards highly specialized characters, if just a little bit.
Ryu
No. You can split a skillgroup at chargen, no problem. You spend points on increasing skill ranks, not buying a certain effective skill rating. So you can disband a group at chargen by increasing a skill that was in it. It is quite common to miss that.
ElFenrir
QUOTE (Ryu @ Feb 11 2008, 08:44 AM) *
A stat shuffle you might consider is strength 3(7), intuition 5, willpower 5. Still significant close combat damage, better stealth and perception, better stun track.

Can I sell you on giving up the Exotic Weapon in favour of perception 5, Shadowing(Tailing) 2? Would make the hunter part stronger, and does much more than another close combat option (One that just happens to be inferior even to your unarmed attacks). 4 BP left.

Aluminum Bone Lacing does more for this char than I´ve considered possible so far. Still, go with your axes, unarmed combat with your skill and strength 7 is good enough. Buy Muscle Augmentation 4 and cyberears with damper and audio enhancers instead. Fluff-wise, I´d prefer a skin-enhancing augmentation for damage resistance, because you do not want to be scratched by some awakened critters. For a hunter, orthoskin + smart insulation is nice, but already clocking in at 42k. Don´t know where those could come from.


Well, i hate to sound stubborn...but the high Strength is part of the character. I pictured in my head a guy who could pull something close and near tear it's head off. Since i wanted to go Human...this seemed to be the best way: It's also why i pictured the positive quality for it. Honestly, if it were any other combat character i was making, i've done _exactly_ what you mentioned and went for a 4(7) in Strength.

However, there is a happy medium here....raise Willpower to 5 by dropping Strength to 4...and then, keeping the Superthyroid, scrounging 7,000 nuyen for Muscle Aug level 4...still having a 9 Strength AND the good willpower. It's going into the realm of almost cheesy minmaxing but this guy's pretty over the top as it is. But i would consider it at least.

Hmm...giving up the Exotic Weapon...i could maybe be sold on that. I mean, 9 dice for Perception(audio and visual...i got him the earbuds, so i could save money and essence on the ears), and 6 dice otherwise, isn't crap, but i'd be more likely to go with a 4 Perception(for 8 and 11 dice, depending on type). But...arrrg. I admit, my conundrum right now is just how much...effectiveness do i want to give up for character? The Strength is staying 9 for sure whichever way, im stubborn there as said, but the other stuff i could tinker with. The chain whip is stylish, but ditching those 5 points either 5 Perception and 2(+2) Shadowing(Tailing), or 4 Perception, 2(+2) Shadowing, and 1 more point somewhere else(Blades? Might as well give him 5(+2) for maximum thwacking.

Originally, i had Titanium Bone Lacing, but dropped it, again, for Essence cost Nuyen cost. one damage difference wasn't...HUGE. Something i might wanna upgrade later though.

And im still debating about shifting stuff around for Option 3 above(3 passes and Edge 3), or at least 3 passes OR Edge 3.

Ixombie: Yeah, I want Arsenal someting fierce; ive been a bit cheap lately. But I think id spend 5 euro on a pdf, at least, so i can get some goodness out of it. And i guess it's true the Suprathyroid isn't as godlike as it was in SR3, but +1 to all stats(and a Reaction boost that stacks with anything, AND a Body boost that counts toward a damage track), sounds good to me; i agree it's expensive though. I might indeed be overestimating it though.

Trying to afford Orthoskin will be tough. Ouch. I mean, yeah, ditch the Superthyroid, lose a point of Initative, Body, Damage Soak, AND Physical Damage Track(and end up keeping my Strength at 5(9) with Muscle Aug 4 anyway), or toss a skill for enough Resources(8 points, or 40k), to afford it.

Bah. I hate sometimes being stubborn sticking to a concept, but i AM taking at least some of the suggestions into consideration. smile.gif
Fuchs
QUOTE (Ryu @ Feb 11 2008, 06:00 PM) *
No. You can split a skillgroup at chargen, no problem. You spend points on increasing skill ranks, not buying a certain effective skill rating. So you can disband a group at chargen by increasing a skill that was in it. It is quite common to miss that.


[ Spoiler ]


ixombie
The book tells you what a starting character can have! There is no rule that starting characters must be noobs! They can up to two skills at 5, or one at 6, and as many attributes at 6 as they can pay for. A starting character can be anything from a kid who just barely graduated from gangland academy to an old veteran who's been a cop for 20 years but hasn't trained his ass off really. Honestly, tell your GM that it is silly to require everyone to start off below the limit imposed by the book. The book allows for good, balanced characters who always have weaknesses to account for their strengths. There is no need to mess with it.
Fuchs
The GM hasn't limited the ranks for characters, but I want to know what fits a beginning Shadowrunner in the campaign, since according to the book, a rank of 5 denotes an "expert". Since DD is a starting shadowrunner from her background, that may be too much. It depends on the power level.
ElFenrir
Well, think about this. You can be a beginner at something...but have done a skill for a long time.

Say Joe has worked with computers his whole life; he was one of those genius-hacker kids or whatnot, and he's 28, graduated from college with a PHD, and whatever happens, etc, etc, and he's shadowrunning now. He might be a total noob Shadowrunner...but his computer skill might well be high. Your girl could have done computers for a long time, but still be new at shadowrunning, per se.
ixombie
WHY are you a beginning runner? You seem committed to that one element of your background. WHY? Would it wreck the character if you just write in a few more years of story, now she's no longer a beginning runner? Or you could alter some other aspect of your bg, like El suggests. Who knows, maybe she's just a prodigy with amazing natural talent in hacking?

I want people to stop thinking that making their characters as newbies makes them better RPers. Powergamers often do not RP well, but that doesn't mean having a well tuned sheet destroys your ability to RP. If you have that, you can't lose it, no matter how kickass your sheet starts. It's like people think that showing restraint and deliberately choosing less useful options shows how good of RPers they are. They're so good at RP that they don't even care whether they'll be able to play the game effectively! Oooo.

I'm not suggesting that that's you, Fuchs, just a random aside really. You're character's not even all that weak. I just think you should question: why are you deliberately making your character less good at what she does than you're allowed to? What are you getting out of it? If the answer is "not much," then I suggest you improve her a bit. It will probably make the game more fun. Losing sucks nyahnyah.gif
Fuchs
QUOTE (ixombie @ Feb 12 2008, 01:31 AM) *
WHY are you a beginning runner? You seem committed to that one element of your background. WHY? Would it wreck the character if you just write in a few more years of story, now she's no longer a beginning runner? Or you could alter some other aspect of your bg, like El suggests. Who knows, maybe she's just a prodigy with amazing natural talent in hacking?

I want people to stop thinking that making their characters as newbies makes them better RPers. Powergamers often do not RP well, but that doesn't mean having a well tuned sheet destroys your ability to RP. If you have that, you can't lose it, no matter how kickass your sheet starts. It's like people think that showing restraint and deliberately choosing less useful options shows how good of RPers they are. They're so good at RP that they don't even care whether they'll be able to play the game effectively! Oooo.

I'm not suggesting that that's you, Fuchs, just a random aside really. You're character's not even all that weak. I just think you should question: why are you deliberately making your character less good at what she does than you're allowed to? What are you getting out of it? If the answer is "not much," then I suggest you improve her a bit. It will probably make the game more fun. Losing sucks nyahnyah.gif


Ther are a few reasons why one would want to play a "newbie".

First, relative power level and the campaign specifics are more important to judge a character's power than absolute efficiency. The same character could be completely overpowered in one campaign and underpowered in another.

Second, while I personally do not subscribe to the "if the player does not know it, the character does not know it either" school of thought, I do recognise that when I am not that familiar with the hacking rules, playing an expert hacker would be harder than playing a hacker who is not among the world's best hacker since the inevitable errors won't be too glarring.

Third, the character concept is important for me. In this case, the feel of the character would change a lot if I assumed she was experienced. She'd act differently, and she'd most likely have different gear as well. That doesn't mean she can't have a higher skill in hacking, for example, than what she currently has, as I said, that's up to the GM to judge if it fits. But yeah, I'd like to play a new runner with this character - the next character might be a grizzled veteran, which would mean a whole lot of different choices.

Among other things I don't want, to make an analogy, show up with a "teenage former street punk clawing his way to the top of the heap" concept and discover that he is better with weapons than the team's weapon specialist, knows more about tactics than the team's former military officer and has better etiquette than the Mr. Johnson the GM built.

Personally, I am fine with a hacking skill of 4, 5 or 6, but I'd like to make sure that the skill rank chosen fits in the campaign. Not everyone likes, for example, teenage prodigies who are experts at age 20.

(And I also recently got burned when a new character introduced in my long-running campaign had to be adjusted twice so far because it was overpowered relative to the rest of the team and the rest of the world. That could have been avoided if the player had let me give more input before creating the character - I originally had planned to make the new character together with the player, but that fell through.)
Sir_Psycho
Just as a flavour concern, why is DD such a good hacker? You explained her gymnastics skills, her motivation for moving to L.A., where she learned to shoot a pistol, what's her motivation for her hacking skills, where did she learn?
Fuchs
Ah, I missed posting one paragraph.

[ Spoiler ]

ElFenrir
Ok, to comment on a few things above:

QUOTE
First, relative power level and the campaign specifics are more important to judge a character's power than absolute efficiency. The same character could be completely overpowered in one campaign and underpowered in another.


Very true. But again, there are even a couple of ways to look at this. One, the difference in skill between 4 and 5...is not that much. (Now, if you start with a Skill Group at 4, it's pretty good there.) One point difference isn't that huge mechanically. But i do know the feeling of the whole ''character'' thing, i made a guy for a chargen tutorial that i ended up lowering a skill by 1 because it wasn't his 'schtick''. But having ONE skill of 5 while the rest of the team has 3s and 4s is NOT going to unbalance a campaign.


QUOTE
Second, while I personally do not subscribe to the "if the player does not know it, the character does not know it either" school of thought, I do recognise that when I am not that familiar with the hacking rules, playing an expert hacker would be harder than playing a hacker who is not among the world's best hacker since the inevitable errors won't be too glarring.


Well, to each their own here, but there was a time none of us were familiar with the rules; we weren't any less of deckers/sammies/mages, but the things took a bit longer. I think it would have taken the same time if our decker had Computers 6 or computers 4.

QUOTE
Third, the character concept is important for me. In this case, the feel of the character would change a lot if I assumed she was experienced. She'd act differently, and she'd most likely have different gear as well. That doesn't mean she can't have a higher skill in hacking, for example, than what she currently has, as I said, that's up to the GM to judge if it fits. But yeah, I'd like to play a new runner with this character - the next character might be a grizzled veteran, which would mean a whole lot of different choices.


Concept is usually important for me, too. And if you want to play a complete new to the scene lady, never been on a run(closest thing was maybe cleaning out the bank account), maybe the 5 won't fit. (Remember though, high scores doesn't mean experience.) But it's not always the GM that judges what fits your character. He can judge what fits the campaign, but not the character, IMO. A character is someone's character and as a GM i never try to tramp on their concept. I only step in and ask for a change if something will throw off the entire campaign. (Lets say someone takes Hunted Level 6 back in the day and 2 extra Level 5 enemies. He's a dead man walking and so is the party. Not fun for anyone.) I don't believe that one person with one skill of 5 or 6 is going to unbalance everything. But if you want to play a new runner, again, that's cool. Just remember new runner doesn't automatically mean low skills in alot of stuff. Again, i like to consider things like corp scientists going on the run after their corps try to wax them; one could be an awesome computer guy and one could be great with medical stuff; but they don't know jack about shadowrunning nor have the proper shadowrunning skills, but they will be good at what they do.

But, again, if you picture DD as less experienced around the entire board; than perhaps primary skills of 3-4 isn't so bad. Im not saying it's a bad thing, ive done it before myself. But these are critiques; people just trying to help. While i managed to be convinced to change a few things on my guy to make him more effective(Logic 2, willpower 4 for example), the Strength thing i didn't budge on, even though it's not the optimal thing, it fits the character. But i think it's cool to read other's opinions, and i have other ideas for my guy now that i might go with(Wired Reflexes 2 for example.)


QUOTE
Among other things I don't want, to make an analogy, show up with a "teenage former street punk clawing his way to the top of the heap" concept and discover that he is better with weapons than the team's weapon specialist, knows more about tactics than the team's former military officer and has better etiquette than the Mr. Johnson the GM built.

Personally, I am fine with a hacking skill of 4, 5 or 6, but I'd like to make sure that the skill rank chosen fits in the campaign. Not everyone likes, for example, teenage prodigies who are experts at age 20.

(And I also recently got burned when a new character introduced in my long-running campaign had to be adjusted twice so far because it was overpowered relative to the rest of the team and the rest of the world. That could have been avoided if the player had let me give more input before creating the character - I originally had planned to make the new character together with the player, but that fell through.)


Well, personally i don't mind; there are plenty of real life instances where people at 20 are better than anyone has a right to be at something. But to each their own here. I mean, not *every* 20 year old is going to be a genius at something, but now and again(and not once in a blue moon even), you find it.

But remember; in the end, it's what fits your character. People are suggesting the higher Hacking score, because, well, it's a critique. We post characters, people give input. Sometimes we take some things, sometimes we leave some things be. I don't think anyone is going to be offended if you start with Hacking 4.

And that last instance; it is important to check the sheets. Party with dice pools of 10-12 and one of 13-15 isn't unbalancing; but a party of pools 8-10 and one of 15-17 is. (Of course, certain flaws can throw off a game like i said, one person with Hunter 6 usually means the whole party eats it.)
Sir_Psycho
I'm having a crack at making my first sammie, and I thought I'd revive this thread rather than make yet another "critique my iranian dwarven pornomancer paraplegic" thread.

I haven't fleshed out the background much yet, but most likely she's originally French and SINless, growing up as a squatter near Cattenom and the SOX, and got her start as muscle for the various toxic zone warlords, but outgrew it and decided to move some-where safer, like shadowrunning. She's basically home-grown special ops, with a anarchistic guerilla bent, and pretty nihilistic and anti-social for an elf.

Elf Sam. Working title: "Molly"
[ Spoiler ]


As this is my first time making a sam (or combat character of any kind) I'm just looking for tips to make her more bp cost effective, and diversely skilled. I like all my characters to be Stealthy, which may be evident. I've gone bare minimum on the comms, do you think those two will be secure enough?

Also, I haven't picked up any qualities yet. Given she most likely grew up in a toxic warzone, she's probably got some nasty negative qualities, and likely an addiction to a substance, I'm htinking alcohol, perhaps. Also, I haven't calculated essence yet, but she might need some cyber-friendly qualities.

Anyway, any tips, notes, suggestions or feedback will be welcome.
Glyph
According to the FAQ, reaction enhancers and wired reflexes are not compatible. I disagree with this vehemently, but still think it needs to be mentioned, since it means some GMs will disallow the combo (if it is allowable, though, then your modified Reaction should be 8, not 6).

Most of the skill groups will be useful. Not sure about the close combat group for someone with a Strength of 1, though. Might want to focus it a bit more - maybe unarmed with a specialization in blocking, plus Edged specializing in knives. Dodge is nice to have, but with melee skills to block with in close, and synthcardium-enhanced gynmastics for ranged full defense, you don't really need it.

The senseware line is nice. The only thing I don't like about it is that you don't have enough capacity left on the cybereyes to get a smartlink and flare compensation (both of which I consider fairly essential). You can always upgrade them later, though.

Edge is low, but honestly, that's the first thing I usually gimp, too. Edge is kind of screwy that way. It can be extremely useful, but it's not essential like other things. And you usually have to cut something any time you try to make a sammie with more than a bare bones allocation of non-combat skills.

Instead of two commlinks, you might think about one commlink, and one micro-transceiver, rating: 6, with encryption: 6. As far as the upgrades, you can only upgrade commlink Response and Signal to rating: 5 if you are using standard Availability (pg. 240).


Pretty good character, especially if it's your first try at a sammie.
helly
If you guys would, a quick run over the sheet for my pikey, a lightly bio/cybermodded adept?

He's mostly melee focused, with a penchant for his crowbar (I know it's fluff and his unarmed is worlds more effective, but image is everything, and sticking your enemy's partner through the gullet and lifting him in the air is a bit more demoralizing than a nasty punch to his jaw.) and bare hands.

He does have some ranged combat ability with his rifle, but it's not something he's going to do often as ammo supply is limited in this 'points of light' themed Middle-Eastern desert based campaign.

Just curious to see what changes you guys would make, or, if possible, any way you can think of to make his crowbar more worth using in combat. I'm not willing to give up the crowbar (I love my fluff!), even if I can't make it more effective, so critiques helping with that would be appreciated.

[ Spoiler ]


Also, to note, as per some house rules, the 12 availability limit for chargen has been removed, and we've also gotten rid of lifestyle cost due to the team living out of a stolen, tricked out Mobmaster.
Isath
Well Sir_Psycho I don't know if you are aware to that, but you can take skillgroups instead of picking all of them one by one. But maybe I missed something...

Automatics : 4
Longarms : 4
Pistols : 4

Would make Firearms 4 and costs only 40 instead of 48 BP


Climbing : 2
Gymnastics : 2
Running : 2
Swimming : 2

Would make Athletics 2 and costs only 20 instead of 32 BP


Disguise : 3
Inflitration : 3
Palming : 3
Shadowing : 3

Would make Stealth 3 and costs only 30 instead of 48 BP


Blades : 2
Clubs : 2
Unarmed Combat : 2

Would make Closecombat 2 and costs only 20 instead of 24 BP
Sir_Psycho
I did buy those as skillgroups. My character generator just spits them out individually.

QUOTE (Glyph)
According to the FAQ, reaction enhancers and wired reflexes are not compatible. I disagree with this vehemently, but still think it needs to be mentioned, since it means some GMs will disallow the combo (if it is allowable, though, then your modified Reaction should be 8, not 6).

Most of the skill groups will be useful. Not sure about the close combat group for someone with a Strength of 1, though. Might want to focus it a bit more - maybe unarmed with a specialization in blocking, plus Edged specializing in knives. Dodge is nice to have, but with melee skills to block with in close, and synthcardium-enhanced gynmastics for ranged full defense, you don't really need it.

The senseware line is nice. The only thing I don't like about it is that you don't have enough capacity left on the cybereyes to get a smartlink and flare compensation (both of which I consider fairly essential). You can always upgrade them later, though.

Edge is low, but honestly, that's the first thing I usually gimp, too. Edge is kind of screwy that way. It can be extremely useful, but it's not essential like other things. And you usually have to cut something any time you try to make a sammie with more than a bare bones allocation of non-combat skills.

Instead of two commlinks, you might think about one commlink, and one micro-transceiver, rating: 6, with encryption: 6. As far as the upgrades, you can only upgrade commlink Response and Signal to rating: 5 if you are using standard Availability (pg. 240).


Pretty good character, especially if it's your first try at a sammie.

I generally play with a few houserules about that sort of thing, as I like a little flexibility in character creation, but I'll keep those cyber notes in mind. It's interesting, people have talked about a Smartlink being a program, not a cyberware mod (as that's sort of covered by Image Link)

I was a big fan of the Karma Pool, so I usually just increase edge in game. I have an aversion to paying for edge at character creation. I feel it's a slight cop-out to making a decent statted character.

As for the commlinks, I usually run one as my active commlink, with my fake SIN and common use programs, and another hidden, stealthed, Admin only commlink firewalled to the hilt for clandestine DNI communication and running sensitive systems that benefit from being wired, like a sensor suite, smartlink, image link, etc.

Also, does anyone know if I can add a shock-pad/stock to the AK, or is that considered included in an AR?
Ryu
QUOTE (helly @ Jul 14 2008, 02:04 PM) *
If you guys would, a quick run over the sheet for my pikey, a lightly bio/cybermodded adept?


- Melee Focus, preferably crowbar: Consider an ork, the strength attribute really helps.
- Even if the race stays, shift one point from willpower to body. That helps with wearing armor.
- Consider Magic 2 (4 base), and a Synaptic Accelerator.
- Longarms (Rifles) is valid, too.
- Penetrating strike is not really necessary on top of critical strike, I´d rather take another level of combat sense.
helly
I find myself confused :o

QUOTE
- Even if the race stays, shift one point from
from... what to what?

I don't have the pdf or book on hand right now, what does a Synaptic Accelerator do in SR4 compared to its SR3 function, and Alex already has magic 5, 4 effective after 'ware.

I made the sheet originally as one of my first SR4 characters, and so I don't recall why I specialized in his specific weapon, but I've got a feeling it's because I thought it saved me a bit on the BP. I suppose it would be smarter to specialize in rifles, if it still fits that way.

As for penetrating strike, I suppose that makes sense as well, I just thought it could come in useful if I ended up fighting somebody in armor.

I'm not too into changing the race. I don't know why, but I've always had a habit of playing humans. It helps me to identify more with my character, I suppose. I have trouble realistically playing other races, so I stick to what I know.

About the melee focus: This character has no clue he's awakened, he's entirely clueless about magic in general, and isn't particularly comfortable with the concept of it. "Finger wigglers" unnerve him in ways only a straight man in a gay bar can relate to, and so I've been a bit leery about giving him any more magic than he can safely explain away as just being very good at what he does. Is there any way a focus could be hidden in nature to him? Essentially, is there any way the crowbar could be a focus without him knowing it is?
Stahlseele
QUOTE
Is there any way a focus could be hidden in nature to him? Essentially, is there any way the crowbar could be a focus without him knowing it is?

if it wasn't made by another mage and he somehow bound it without knowing, no way in hell *g*
the syn/ack gives plus one ini-pass, instead of plus one ini-die as it did in SR3
Ryu
QUOTE (helly @ Jul 14 2008, 11:18 PM) *
I find myself confused :o

from... what to what?


See edit, I swear I had that typed out when I... whatever, my mistake.
helly
Yeah, I'm probably going to avoid the focus then, just to stick with him being ignorant to all things magic, despite being apparently pretty well-off because of it. I figure it could lead him on the path to initiation down the line.

I'm worried about cramming in more ware, as even now he's got a wasted point of magic just with the cybereyes, commlink and the cool toys that let him know what's going on around him at all times, so I'll probably ditch the SynAcc idea. I do kind of like doing another level of Combat Sense, though.
Stahlseele
if the rules for late awakening weren't so fubar i'd advise on letting him awaken in game some time and untill then playing him like any mundane . .
helly
Yeah, I suppose I'll be avoiding that. As for a switch from willpower to body, I've kind of got him as an extremely willful type of guy. He's pretty hard to sway from anything he believes should be done, and he's physically not all that tough, but being drunk 90% of his teenage and adult life has numbed his senses enough that he's got a pain tolerance like a pregnant woman. Besides, he's pretty well set on dodging quite a bit, as opposed to actually soaking damage, I think. Non?

[ Spoiler ]
Ryu
Reaction 5 - full evasion 8 (Melee +2), all that benefits from combat sense. Very nice for the dodge part.

I can´t judge if a DR pool of about 10 dice is deadly or sufficient in your campaign. Usually the omnipresence of firearms would support the "deadly" verdict, as your char could not afford to leave cover against a bunch of gangers with heavy pistols. Three to four attacks force you to go on full evasion, and then it´s a downhill battle. On the other hand, you say your campaign is light on firearms, and you´ve got melee covered with a nice non-maxing build.
helly
Yeah, there won't be a lot of concentrated gunfire going on, so I think it'll be sufficient. I'm actually pretty happy with the build overall, thanks guys biggrin.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012