I'm sure that there are "witch hunters" or "mage hunters" in the Sixth world. Many of them may actually be mages under the delusion of a 'magical oddity.' I imagine one of the greatest sources of such people would be Christian mages with the "miracle" oddity who believe that witchcraft is evil, but their own magic is actually miraculous intervention by Gawd.

It doesn't seem practical to make a mage hunter who's a mundane - even with all the manatech, when facing a powerful sorceror or conjurer, a mundane without magical support is at a very serious disadvantage. I think one thing that's central to a witch hunter would be the ability to take on mages head to head, without needing a whole team.

I tried building an effective mage hunter as a mystic adept, and couldn't quite pull it off. I went for 5 magic, -1 from synaptics 2, 2.5 power points in magic resistance 5, .5 points in magic sense, and the rest in piercing senses. With 6( 8 ) Counterspelling(Combat spells) and willpower 5, that gave me 16 dice to resist all spells, 18 to resist combat spells, and 20 to resist illusion spells. That means I have more dice to resist a spell then your typical mage has to cast one.

But here are the problems with that build:

1) As mages advance, their Magic will go up, they will learn initiate powers, and their casting dice will go up quickly since it's the most important thing they have to spend karma on. The mystic adept, on the other hand, will need to spend points on attributes, skills, powers... If everything goes into magic resistance, it won't be a very useful character, but if not everything goes into magic resistance, it might be very difficult to keep up with mages, rendering the character pointless.

2) The bigger problem is spirits. I thought to go with heavy weapons, since machine guns and grenade launchers own mundanes and mages alike, while assault cannons and rocket launchers can take out some brutally high force spirits. Despite all of the points in magic resistance, however, the witch hunter gains no bonus against spirit powers. Things like confusion and fear can own them. And even though a zapper rocket can take out a force 11 spirit, you have to hit the force 11 spirit. It would have 22 dice to full defense, which is more than a mystic adept is gonna have to shoot a rocket launcher. It will dodge your expensive rockets until you run out, then cream you. So despite the fact that heavy weapons can technically take out beefy spirits, spirits really aren't all that vulnerable to normal weapons by virtue of their dodge abilities. To even get enough attack dice to reliably hit a powerful spirit the adept would need to divert even more karma away from magic resistance, eroding their viability as a witch hunter in the first place...

It seems that the only people who can go up against mages one a one-on-one basis are mages. Mystic adepts focused on adept powers can deflect spells, but can't Banish, so a full mage can pwn them by summoning friends.

How would YOU make a witch hunter? Do you think I'm right that an adept, or adept-leaning mystic adept wouldn't work, or could you make it happen? What about mundanes, am I right to give up on them?

For the purposes of this thread, assume that the GM doesn't care if you're a mystic adept with no magic allocated to spellcasting, or no magic allocated to adept powers.

Lots of good contacts with the mage guilds and an SM-4 would be how I'd do it. Besides that just a SMG and a better init than the mage.

Mages are only as hard to kill as achieving tactical surprise is.

1) Spirit Pacts
2) Awakened Drugs
3) The Magic Resistance Quality
4)Spell anchors
5)Drones

Any mundane can gain the Magical Guard Power using a Spirit Pact and max out his counterspelling. Combine that with Magical Resistance and high resistance stats and you have a character who is better protected against magic than most mages are. Purchasing anchored spells allows him to carry useful spells with him, though this will get expensive rather quickly.

You're still better off ambushing than trying to stand toe to toe. SR isn't a good system to be a tank in.

What's the cost for hiring people to anchor spells on you?

I guess when I make characters in SR4, I tend to ask "how could I make a character with no weaknesses?" This is due in part to much experience making SR3 characters. It was totally possible to make characters without weaknesses right out of chargen in SR3... But not in SR4. It kinda seems like when you're asking "how do I do everything all by myself," in SR4 the answers is "you don't." Everyone will have the rock to their scissors - a spell resistance adept will get trounced by spirits, while conjurers will get trounced by mages who are good at banishing...

don't forget that alot of the anti meta policlubs aren't just anti-meta, they are anti-awakened, so they hate mages just as much, maybe even more because "them bastids are sneaky fraggers, they hides themselves behind the same looks as you an me, but they aint like you an me, they's demons, demons that look like men..."

You should have put a SR4 on this thread. I almost suggested a Virtuso Adept.

Sorry! Fixed.

only thing i can add to this is some martial arts training +3 to attacks of will. i totaly think its possilbe to make a mundane magekiller, i just don't think he'd be knee deep in combat blasting mages and spirits left and right. like any good assassin, you'd have to get close to the target, and have them lower thier defenses.

They actually had a ghost hunter archetype in one of the earlier edition books (Awakenings, I think - I don't have those books any more). I was inspired by that to work on one of my own, originally for Cain's sample character thread, but decided it was a bit too overpowered. I'll post it here. Note that this guy doesn't have astral detection capability - with astral combat as a separate skill now, you are better off fighting spirits in the meat world. Basically, he has a lot of dice to resist spells, and a weapon focus to fight spirits.

That's not necessarily true. A Mystic Adept can gain a die of Magic Resistance per magic point while still having half a point left to spend and Shielding foci are wonderful; they're cheaper than an equivalent Power Focus and are a lot more flexible than a Spellcasting or Counterspelling Foci. In order for a Magician to become a better spellcaster they need to raise their Magic attribute. For a Mystic Adept to become a better counterspeller, they have to concentrate on sheer Initiate grades and Shielding. Raising the Magic attribute eventually becomes necessary in order to raise the Initiation grade cap, but in the short term the Mystic Adept has a pretty sizeable head start.

That said, if you're a Spirit Hunter rather than a Magician Hunter, I think you're actually far better off being a Magician yourself. Astral Combat can actually be an incredibly useful skill, but it's an utter waste of time if you're incapable of projecting yourself, which is why Glyph is completely justified in making his Adept the way he did (I've sheeted up similar myself; it's a simple but effective concept) . That said, if you CAN project you have some serious Spirit murderin' options with Astral Combat and Mana Static. This is very important: remember that Astral Combat has virtually nothing to do with your Magic Attribute. As long as you don't run into a void or otherwise end up with an effective Magic of 0 and go crashing back to your shoes, you're as good an Astral Combatant as ever regardless of the environment you're in. A mentally tough projecting mage with 7 Logic (Cerebral Boosters, etc) holding an action and then dropping a Force 3 or 4 Mana Static on top of the Spirits assaulting the team is a painful gambit due to the spell's high drain code, but if you have a better way of quickly neutering multiple Spirits and making them extremely easy to pick off, I'd like to hear it.

Mentor Spirit: The Word (Mountain), Killing Hands (geas: only against spirits) [+.25], Iron Will (geas: cross talisman) [+.25/2], Improved Reflexes (geas: tithe) [+1.5], Magic Sense (geas: incantation) [+.25], Empathic Healing (geas: confession) [+.25], Cool Resolve [+.5/2] [= 3.0 PP]

I recommend a red trenchcoat, monosword weapon focus, and a pair of modified Preds.

'Jesus Christ is in Heaven'?

I don't know, just think how many mages are likely to have some form of anchored detect bullet/bullet barrier combination set up. Knives on the other hand... How many average mages would you expect to take magical precautions against getting stabbed?

Something like this but more modern?

Probably not that many really. And at any rate you could just fire AP rounds.

What is bullet barrier though? I don't see that in the core book.

In previous editions there were barrier spells specific to certain types of damage/forces/attacks.

I personally am not interested in how to make an SR3 witch hunter. All you really needed in SR3 was a 6 willpower, and it was devlilshly hard to hurt you with directed spells. And it was really easy for almost everyone to have enough attribute points to take 6 willpower. SR3 characters were badasses of an order no longer seen in SR4 chargen. SR4 doesn't let you eliminate all your weaknesses, so given that, it's a lot more of a challenge (if it's even possible) to make a character who can fulfill a role like mage hunter without having glaring flaws.

I considered the melee angle. Spirits are actually quite weak against killing hands and weapon foci, since they get 0 armor against them. Hitting them is still a problem though. Since unarmed combat is defended with skill + attribute instead of just reaction like ranged combat, spirits are always going to resist with a big dice pool. A force 6 spirit would have ~12 dice, which is beatable, but a force 10 would have around 20. Unless you're a super specialized melee person, you won't even come close to that. And if you're focused on being able to resist spells, you won't be a super specialized melee person. And the 20 dice wouldn't even be on full defense, they'd still be able to hit back and clobber you in that same turn. Melee as a primary attack form just has too many drawbacks. First you have to get close without dying, then you have to stay in melee long enough to kill the enemy without letting them get away. With a spirit who has the movement power or flight, that's going to be very difficult.

I'm not satisfied with "sneak up on them," either. Certainly, if anyone can sneak up on a mage, it's an adept, especially since they can have things like traceless walk, improved infiltration, and cloak. But "sneak up on them" isn't a witch hunter technique, it's an anything hunter technique. Unless we're talking about hardened armor, if you eliminate someone's defense roll, and especially their ability to full defense, they're dead. They could be a granite slab of a tank troll and you could probably take them out with small arms as long as you have surprise. To me, a witch hunter is all about bringing an open challenge against the darkness and facing alone, head on. Maybe that's not a practical idea for a build, but it's how I see the concept being distinct from any generic adept or mage.

Although I tend to agree that anyone could be an effective Witch Hunter based off of the vibe I'm getting from your posts personally I think I'd recommend an actual Mage with a careful spell selection. A tormented soul, knowing full well that he is forever damned merely for being born and willing to delve into whatever depths of hell and depravity are necessary to send as many of the cursed demon spawn back to hell.

I can see such a man willingly having a cortex bomb installed and giving the denotation code to a trusted friend, just in case he loses his soul to the arcane darkness.

The build I posted earlier will roll 20 dice to attack or defend, and rolls 8 dice, before Edge, to resist most spells. I did a mystic adept version to pump up the spell defense, but it's pretty ugly. Hyper focused and totally min-maxed, although that might fit if you are playing the crazed mage hunter, the smelly guy who lives in a squat and comes out to battle the forces of darkness.



Still throwing down 20 dice for melee, but now he also rolls 14 dice to resist most spells, 19 against combat spells.


But the problem with "bringing an open challenge against the darkness and facing alone, head on" is that it is not tactically sound unless the magical threat is seriously overconfident. Spirits can fly, or fade into the astral plane, in an eyeblink. The mage targetting you with a manabolt could be behind the tinted glass of a parked car, an anonymous pedestrian, or someone with a telescope on the roof.

I'll see that but i'll also raise you a set of weapon focus gauntlets and the Elemental Strike: Fire power.


...unless we're thinking of different people.


The one(s) im thinking of have a pretty badass positive quality, though.


Anyhow, how i'd run with this would probably indeed be adept or mystic adept. (My other mundane hunter was a bit different in the sense where he is built for a team, and he goes more 'paranormal critters, vampires and stuff' than straight up hunting mages.) I was actually thinking about this at some point, and i think i wanted to come back to it. Ill see what i come up with. im definately leaning mystic adept; out of the gate he might not be as bad but with some stuff behind them.

Needed abilities are spell defense and spirit combat. Astral Perception would also be nice, Astral Projection even better. Said mage has no real need for high-force spells.

Mystical Adept Quality (10BP)
Magic 5 (4 after ware) (split 2/2) (40 BP)
Spellcasting 1 (Detection Spells) (6 BP)
Counterspelling 6 (24 BP)
2*Incompetence: Summoning, Binding (-10 BP)
Weapon Focus of choice (x BP)

Thats 70+ (focus costs) BP, seems affordable enough to tack it onto a normal samurai build. For the one point of ware, consider limiting yourself to synaptic 1 + cybereyes/ears. Way better for your real-world utility, and you´ll need high DPs for nailing "smaller" spirits with firearms. No can do without senseware. I´d suggest buying athletic powers and manipulation spells for movement, so that the guy can assault from unexpected angles.

@Glyph: That's a pretty min-maxed build, although not that much min -- if you don't have perception, you can't find the witches... You could pump up to 7 dice with image and audio enhancement, but it's not uncommon for almost every character, even mages, to have more infiltration dice than that. The character starts out being able to do what you want him to, but for the immediate future after chargen you'll have to spend your karma patching up his huge flaws.

How about using vehicles?

The mage has to get out in the streets at some point, but I guess that's like saying using a sniper.

The vehicle would be equipped with big guns more likely to take out high force spirits and shrug off spells easier..

I guess you could have a tricked out parahunter car, like the tank from Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust. I wouldn't think of a mage hunter being a rigger though, even if he had a powerful car. A team of parahunters would probably have a rigger, but a lone wolf would want to be less reliant on the witches being in places where his car can drive to. Witch hunting is not about staking out the street near someone's hideout and wiating for them to show up -- who knows what evil they could work in the meantime? And they could kill you without showing their face by sending spirits at you. Plus, some nasty mages probably never leave their hideouts. Like a toxic mage is perfectly happy to just abide in his radioactive sludge pit lair, he's not coming out to the streets any time soon.

Before I read the last line, I assumed you just meant to run the mage over.

I had made a mundane build, orc + deepweed with magic resistance, nice Edge and tough as nails, more of a detective than anything else. Sadly, I lost that char as I had it written in some piece of paper that got misplaced...

The new manatech help too. Of course, the most effective build would be a magician, however, I thought mundane would be more fun. Maybe I redo it...

Cheers!

Max

i made an orc adept as well with a more sneaky approach



tactics would be to sneak up on target and stun him with surprise then use fuel+matches

Sorry dudeslice, but adept powers have ratings caps of your Magic, and Improved Ability caps at half your skill, contrary to what it says in the book. Errata.
That said, the mage can't kill what he can't find, so that's a tactic I'll scope out.

okok just used a skillmanager that said everything's ok.
then lower the powers as appropriate and add traceless walk + sustenance

In all honesty, the nastiest thing I've ever thrown at a mage (or hell, even a runner team) as a GM was a MystAd Drone Rigger/Conjuror who only used low Force Spirits as Astral watchdogs and to boost the speed of his drones/vehicles with the Movement power. Just imagine a guy with Combat Sense, Spell Resistance, counterspelling, attribute boosters, a bound monowhip and his own personal squad of bodyguards (complete with natural Object Resistance!).