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Ophis
Okay can regeneration regrow chopped off limbs, I know the head is out but what about an arm? This could be important as I have a vampire vs monowhip fight on the horizon.

Stahlseele
well, as long as he is still alive then yes, i would say anything chopped off(maybe aside from the head) would simply regrow in time . . of course, not as fast as it would have under 3rd Rules . .
Kyrn
Hell yeah his arm can grow back. And preferably in a tactically surprising fashion. Just make sure your vamp's an adept with a disgustingly high body. Or, if it's against a monowhip, a gun or stuff.
[Edit: or alternately martial arts and the clinch maneuver from Arse. It negates reach modifiers, and I fail to see how someone could use a monowhip while tussling on the ground.]
ixombie
Clinch isn't tussling on the ground, it's fighting in close and preventing the enemy from backing off. Subdual combat is where you're just wrassling. And it doesn't even count as fighting on the ground until you successfully grapple the enemy, and then use a subsequent attack to knock them down.

The problem with the question, IMO, is that nothing technically gets chopped off in SR4. I could take 9/10 boxes of damage, and aside from my wound modifier, I have no penalties - I can run with both legs, use both arms, etc. I think getting part of you amputated in combat is more like taking 10/10 boxes of damage. Not yet dead, but mortally wounded, in shock, and bleeding out quickly. There is no Monty Python "You're arm's off!" "It's just a flesh wound!" Losing a limb is a deadly hit in the real world. That doesn't mean you can't be saved, but you're definitely not going to be able to survive, let alone fight on unless you are immediately given first aid.

With regenerating creatures, of course, it's all up to the GM. Sure, nothing technically gets chopped off, but in the case of something that doesn't care about losing limbs, maybe you could describe it that way just to make it interesting. The GM has total discretion over exactly how critter powers work (SR4 p.286). SR4 actually says that the GM should keep the characters guessing with critters, and explicitly states that you SHOULD alter how the powers work. So maybe one critter gets his arm chopped off and regenerates it in another place and whacks a PC with it, maybe another critter gets his head chopped off and has it regenerate, even though "he can't do that!" Go nuts!
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
I fail to see how someone could use a monowhip while tussling on the ground.


Garrote.

-Frank
Kyrn
Looks up. Reads.
Hangs head.

I knew that yesterday, why am I brain no function day? Bah.

ixombie's right on both counts. As long as there are no rules for cutting off limbs and regeneration just fills condition monitor boxes, I think it's safe to say that any such limb removal is taken care of by regeneration.
Now, if the PC is trying to lop off a limb, say for the purpose of getting whatever is on that limb or being held by it, just a called shot.

And monowire garottes shall continue to be so boss I refrain from using them against PCs. It's like having nukes. They're really cool and shiny and you want use one, kind of just for kicks, but you know you really shouldn't.
Ophis
Since Frank hasn't said no. I'll take that as a solid yes. Lucky vampire.
Zen Shooter01
The Severe Wounds optional rule on AUG 120 allows for severed limbs as a result of damage.
bibliophile20
QUOTE (ixombie @ Feb 16 2008, 11:47 AM) *
The problem with the question, IMO, is that nothing technically gets chopped off in SR4. I could take 9/10 boxes of damage, and aside from my wound modifier, I have no penalties - I can run with both legs, use both arms, etc. I think getting part of you amputated in combat is more like taking 10/10 boxes of damage. Not yet dead, but mortally wounded, in shock, and bleeding out quickly. There is no Monty Python "You're arm's off!" "It's just a flesh wound!" Losing a limb is a deadly hit in the real world. That doesn't mean you can't be saved, but you're definitely not going to be able to survive, let alone fight on unless you are immediately given first aid.


From Augmentation (although it's admittedly under an "Optional Rule"):
QUOTE (Aug pg 121)
Limb Loss: The character is separated from his arm or another
limb in a fashion that sprays blood everywhere. Arterial blood
is under high pressure and can easily spurt up to 6 meters—be
creative. The character suffers additional wound penalties and
begins dying. The character begins taking additional damage as
if from Physical Damage Overflow (p. 244, SR4) until stabilized.
A transplant or cyberlimb replacement is in his future.


So there are rules available for losing a limb.

QUOTE
With regenerating creatures, of course, it's all up to the GM. Sure, nothing technically gets chopped off, but in the case of something that doesn't care about losing limbs, maybe you could describe it that way just to make it interesting. The GM has total discretion over exactly how critter powers work (SR4 p.286). SR4 actually says that the GM should keep the characters guessing with critters, and explicitly states that you SHOULD alter how the powers work. So maybe one critter gets his arm chopped off and regenerates it in another place and whacks a PC with it, maybe another critter gets his head chopped off and has it regenerate, even though "he can't do that!" Go nuts!

*snort* reminds me of something from 616 Wolverine's file, that the only way to definitively kill him would be to decapitate him and remove his head from the vicinity of his body.

Hmmm... with cyberspurs, titanium bone lacing, experimental regenerative nanites and a personafix chip coded up by a bored and classically minded technician... vegm.gif
djinni
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Feb 16 2008, 12:51 PM) *

dangit frank stop stealin my kills! >=

if you give him high enough body you could have the cinematic effect of getting his arm chopped off and as it regrows he catches it with the newly regrown limb before the severed one even hits the ground...then proceeds to beat the offending player with it.
raverbane
On the subject of regeneration...

From Street Magic page 101
"If the test succeeds, the possession takes hold: the vessel and the critter are considered a single dual-natured entity for the duration"

From Street Amgic page 57
"Great Form Powers...Particularly powerful great form spirits gain a unique power appropriate to their type:...Plant: Regeneration (p. 290, SR4) "

If a great form possession plant spirit is currently possessing someone. Do they regenerate since they are a single entity?
jago668
QUOTE (raverbane @ Feb 16 2008, 07:57 PM) *
On the subject of regeneration...

From Street Magic page 101
"If the test succeeds, the possession takes hold: the vessel and the critter are considered a single dual-natured entity for the duration"

From Street Amgic page 57
"Great Form Powers...Particularly powerful great form spirits gain a unique power appropriate to their type:...Plant: Regeneration (p. 290, SR4) "

If a great form possession plant spirit is currently possessing someone. Do they regenerate since they are a single entity?


I'd say yes.
JBlades
I believe it would take a service, but ya the magician could use the spirit's Regeneration power. Just one of the reasons plant spirits are high on my list of favorites...
DTFarstar
I have always assumed so, yes, but I don't technically have anything to back me up. I don't see why if they are a single entity one of the powers would just stop working though.

Chris
DTFarstar
Hmm, I wouldn't think Regeneration would be something you would activate. I mean, does a spirit or critter have to start regenerating or does it just happen whenever they are wounded?

Chris
ixombie
Yes they do. The possessed person benefits from the spirit's passive powers, which includes immunity to normal weapons, and also regeneration.

Of course, by being a plant spirit, you sacrifice the better physical attributes that other spirits have. And it's no mean feat to both learn invoking and manage to summon a great form spirit with enough net hits to get a great form power.
DTFarstar
QUOTE (BBB pg290)
Regeneration
Type: P € Action: Auto € Range: Self € Duration: Always
A critter with Regeneration rapidly heals any Physical
damage


I don't think it would be fair to charge a service everytime someone possessed by a great form plant spirit gets injured, and since they can't turn it off, there is no choice.

Chris
hyzmarca
A Very good example of limb regeneration.

ixombie
I should clarify my position, since I may have answered "yes" to a non-yes-or-no question.

Regeneration does not cost a service to activate when you're possessed. The only affect Possession has on services is that the mage can give ordinary "go there, do that" kinds of commands without using up services. But when you summon a great form plant spirit, it wouldn't make sense to expend a service to ask it to please regenerate and not die, would it? So when it possesses you, it's the same deal. It regenerates all the time, automatically. It requires no activation, just an automatic roll at the end of each turn. And I can prove it:

QUOTE (p.290)
If a critter has already taken enough damage to enter
into Physical damage overflow, the critter is not considered
dead until it has had a chance to make a Regeneration Test.


If the critter had to consciously activate the power to heal itself, the power would not work when it was in physical overflow. But it does. Even if you blast it with a rocket and it's on the ground, unconscious, unable to do anything, it still regenerates as long as you haven't completely killed it. The shows that regeneration is a passive power which doesn't use up a service, ever.
DTFarstar
Not only that, but if you read that closely what it is saying is that it is not completely dead until you knock it into overflow, exceed the overflow boxes, AND it gets a test to bring it back up above the end of it's overflow boxes. Say a Vampire with body 3/magic 6 takes 14P damage, knocking it into overflow and then exceeding overflow. It won't be considered dead till he makes a magic+body test and heals that damage, in this case if he gets 2 or more successes out of his 9 dice, then he survives till you hit him again.

Chris
ixombie
About the severe wounds option rules: those rules are terrible! If there are going to be spectacular amputations, I want it to happen with a chart. It would totally suck if I failed the Edge test and the GM just got to randomly pick "irreparable organ damage." It's like 'oh great, I got really badly hurt, plus the GM felt like screwing me over on TOP of that.' Now a chart -- charts are fun! It's like "oh goody, what happened to me?" *roll* "Whoo! Mutilation of the face! Awright!" It's the not the GM arbitrarily picking something to bone me with, it's letting the dice fall where they may. And it's fun to use a critical damage chart on NPCs, it always adds color to the scene when you chop off heads and get arterial gushes, or snap spines like twigs. But the optional damage rules are like "hey, what would make this game more fun? I know, a way for a vindictive GM to permanantly disable characters!" I know you could just roll a d6 and assign numbers to the lists, but if it's not a real chart it just isn't the same...
Jackstand
I think that it's more a matter of allowing the GM to pick the horrible maiming that best fits the attack, but it certainly could be abused. That's what GMs are for, though. Having someone to arbitrate things is why we just don't have a machine do it. You can use it to your advantage by getting on the GM's good side first, too. Favorites are there to be played!
ixombie
I'm just saying it's not fun to have the GM pick my punishment after I'm already getting punished with a severe wound. A chart might be fun. But under the ordinary rules, severe wounds just don't happen. I would never use these rules as GM. I don't see any way they could add to a player's fun. "Ok dude, the guard blasts you with a shotgun, take 8 boxes, and one of your legs got blown off so you can't run away." It's just not something I'd want to do. All the optional rules do is rub salt in a character's very literal wounds.
Jackstand
He might not be able to run away, but the other characters could carry him away. It can make things more dramatic, and test your teamwork. Besides, if they leave you behind, maybe whoever you're getting shot up by will piece you back together, and you'll get to make glorious vengeance on your so-called friends who left you to die. Aside from losing a little bit from your dice pool, otherwise, there's no particular penalty to being wounded. Besides, it makes it more tactically useful to attack particular parts of an enemy
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