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siel
So I tried to build a character based on the PMV from Arsenal
Instead of a rigger or hacker, the character is a summoner with low physical stats.

Backstory..
[ Spoiler ]


Anyway, the modificationUsing the Daihatsu-Caterpillar Horseman (PMV) on pg 107

The variation with advanced cargo module comes with
handling +1
accel 10/20
speed 75
pilot 1
body 6
armor 4
sensor 2
at the cost of 17000

it also comes with two mechanical arms

so with the 6 slot, i made the following modifications:
armor of 12 (max being 2 x body)

personal armor 10
(Personal armor has a rating of 1 to 10, which is added as a dice pool bonus to any test to avoid damage inflicted by outside sources onto passengers.)

pilot 6
special armor (nonconductivity) 10

and a rigger cocoon (not sure if I can actually add one)
(The rigger cocoon has an Armor rating of 20 and a Structure rating of 10. Increase the rigger's dice pool by 5 in all cases where the rigger cocoon can help protect him from damage due to crashing or vehicle maneuvers.)

and... whatever sensor upgrade cause I am still not sure exactly how that works

Updated Stat
handling +1
accel 10/20
speed 75
pilot 6
body 6
armor 12
sensor 6



So.. I think this is how the vehicle will work
The vehicle gets to shrug off anything that doesn't have DV - AP = 12 (since negative AP is good).
Whereas the cocoon will get to shrug off anything that doesn't have DV - AP = 20.

Now for some questions

1) If something did go through the vehicle armor, would you apply the armor value together with the cocoon value to calculate whether it shrugged off the damage?
I would say no and only the cocoon value apply

2) If something did go through cocoon, would you be rolling char body + char armor + vehicle armor + personal armor + cocoon armor. Not counting character's body and armor, would it be a base of about 42 to resist the damage?
(vehicle armor) 12+ (personal armor) 10 + (rigger cocoon) 20 = 42

3) The vehicle is not piloted by the character inside, but by a pilot program.
Would the vehicle roll everything as if it's a drone?

4) If forced to make a crash test, what would the pilot program roll?
Would it roll pilot rating + reaction?
is reaction a response chip that you get for the vehicle?

5) If taking crashing damage, would the character be rolling body+armor+vehicle armor+personal armor+ cocoon armor + 5 bonus from cocoon armor regarding crash test?
Or would I only roll body+armor+personal armor+5 bonus from cocoon armor.


6) The character is a summoner, is it possible for him to astral perceive and then summon spirits outside of vehicle?

7) Is it possible for him to get myomeric rope that allow him direct LOS to outside world while retaining the benefits of the armor and coccoon?
(gm's discretion it looks like. Though i imagine this is not as hard to do compared to a car that's chemically sealed.. but drilling holes will probably screw with the integrity of the vehicle and cocoon)

8 ) Could you counterspell through a myomeric rope (and taking that -3 DP modifier)?

9) According to the description
"In road mode, Horseman is barely taller than a motorcycle, with the driver enclosed in a bubble canopy. In walk mode, the wheels move closer together, bringing the driver into a sitting position and the whole PMV upright to slightly taller than an average human, allowing it to travel on sidewalks, enter cargo elevators, and park in a space a third of the size of a normal vehicle. In the dangerous world of 2070, some people have chosen to leave their homes and workplaces only in a Horseman, and almost never leave its safety."
Would that be too big to go through normal doors? I think it might have trouble fitting through small doors like one at homes, though it should be fine going through doors meant for lots of traffic like at corps, warehouses, schools?


The plan was for him to be support and face for a team. Maybe provide additional counterspelling if possible, otherwise he would sustain a few spells while the vehicle fights as a giant drone and spirits be the spell/counterspelling support.

I am also looking into exchanging the default mechanical arms with cyberarms from Augmentation.


Any suggestions on how to better build the PMV for this character?

Anyone else tried anything fun with these PMVs?

I actually really want to do the ejection seat/flying PMV combination and make a bat mobile..
Sir_Psycho
Ejaculation seat?
Velocity219e
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Feb 17 2008, 11:22 AM) *
Ejaculation seat?


Fun or terrifying, you decide.
siel
Ejection seat... i need sleep
BlackHat
Well, first of all, I think some of that stuff is unavailable at character generation. Pilot 6 for example, has an availability of 18. Without looking it all up, I suspect that some of the other modifications you want are also out of a character's initial price/availability range - especially if your GM has special rules regarding buying modifications that need a facility to install.

Secondly,

1) I believe that when attacking, the attacker has to say he is either attacking the vehicle, or a passenger. If it is the passenger, the passenger gets half of the vehicle's armor rating (and, presumably, the full cocoon rating). So, other than the fact that a bullet will never just "happen" to go through the armor, yes.

2) See above, all looks right except for t

3) Yes.

4) Drones roll just their pilot for driving around. There is a maneuverability autosoft that can add to this roll. See BBB.

5) I believe in a crash you get half of the vehicle's impact armor. Look up crashes in the BBB.


6) Only if the windows are plain-glass, I believe. Any electronics, and possibly some tinting/reinforcing/whatever could pose a problem. Keep in mind, that, (without mage-sight rope) if he can see out, his enemies can see in. (see next question)

7) Yes. I don't see why you couldn't have mage-sight goggles installed, but you would probably have a severely limited field-of-view, and can no longer benifit from the vehicle's sensors. (see mage-sight security-system in the manatech section, although there arn't prices or anything listed for it - might give you better coverage).

8 ) I don't see why not, assuming you're looking in the correct direction at the time, and the character doesn't step into your blindspot before doing whatever it is you want to stop.

9) I think you're probably right. The GM could balk you by putting a relatively normal sized door in your way. I think in plenty of social situations it's lible to come up. Heck, without a SunCell system, your car is going to be spewing exhaust into whatever room you happen to force it into.


PS. I think its funny that you're considering "the guy who never leaves his car" as the face in the group. I can just imagine him negotiating with Mr. Johnson through a microphone system and mage-sight rope.... Assuming he can get his car into the meet. wink.gif
siel
Right, I forgot some of the items I don't actually have yet and are curently working on them in game.

The character mainly needs the vehicle to give him protection. He COULD still come out and meet the johnson, though we all know how some of those meet go.
He could also see the johnson without using the myomeric rope. There are sensors for the vehicle after all

I am thinking about installing a bust-a-move and/or a emotitoy so that whenever the character speaks, the bust-a-move doll speaks.
It'd irritate the heck out of the Johnson, but maybe the character can still very extremely persuasive and charismatic behind a vehicle and talking through microphone?

I am also very tempted to get the shapechange spell just to surprise everyone. As far as the rest of the team knows, there SHOULD be someone in that vehicle. Imagine their surprise when a dog walks out.

Maybe the character will go by the name "The Mechanical Face" or somethign silly like that.



Anyway, some more questions and more.. tables
could you astrally perceive through walls?
When you summon a spirit, do you need a LOS?


Assuming optimized software and hardware..

Vehicle Test
(Reaction + appropriate vehicle skill + handling)
Pilot+Maneuver + Handling
6+6+2=14

Attacks against Vehicle
(Character: Reaction +/- Handling)
Drones: Pilot +/- Handling
6+2 = 8

Evasing Driving (Full Defense)
Pilot +/- Handling + Defense autosoft
6 + 2 + 6=14

Resisting Damage to Vehicle
Body+Armor, ignore if less than armor after factoring in AP
12 + 20 = 32, ignore 12, trade for 8 damage

Resisting Damage to Vehicle with electricty
Body+Armor+Special Armor (non-conductivity), the special armor also applies to passenger
12+20+10 = 42, ignore electricity damage less than 22, resist electricity side effect with 42
not sure about that one

Attacking Vehicle and Passenger
(ramming, full automatic burst, and area-effect weapon like grenades)
"In the case of ramming, full-auto and area-effect attacks, both passengers and vehicles resist the damage equally."
In the case of crashing
"Characters resist ramming damage with half their Impact armor (round up)."
Half of char's impact armor + Personal Armor + Cocoon's 5 bonus
or is it half of vehicle's impact armor? would you apply cocoon's barrier rating?
12+5 = 17?

in the case of full automatic burst and area effect
vehicle armor + cocoon armor for being a barrier + personal armor + cocoon's 5 bonus
12+20+10 = 42

Attacking Passenger
"Passengers attempting to defend an attack inside a vehicle suff er a ‚€“2 dodge dice pool modifier, since they are somewhat limited in movement. Additionally, the passengers gain protection from the vehicle‚€™s chassis, adding the Armor of the vehicle to any personal armor the characters are
wearing."
Vehicle armor + Cocoon armor + personal armor, and blindfire penalty
12+20+10=42, ignore if less than 20, blidn fire penalty

though i suspect that most things can be ignored with cocoon armor of 20. On the other hand, I can just see the vehicle blow up with cocoon remaining, rolling on the floor toward the baddies.
The character will be ... in a world of fun.

Crashing
Vehicle skill + Reaction (3) test if taken more damage from a single attack than body
I'm assuming a drone would roll pilot + Maneuver+handling in this case
6+6+2=14

Sensor tests
Sensor + Clearsight
6+6=12

Targetting
Pilot+Targetting autosoft
6+6=12

Initiative (3 IP)
Pilot Rating + Response
6+6=12, 3 IP

Still not sure where the vehicle's response attribute comes from. In the sample character example, the van is equipped with pilot, signal, firewall, response. So I would basically need to treat it as a commlink but with pilot replacing the OS?

Now i'm wondering if it's possible to get a cocoon on four wheels cyber.gif
hyzmarca
I can't believe that I completely missed that someone made the Wild Weasel as an official vehicle.

You must mount a laser cannon on this vehicle and name the character Jack Rockwell.
Odsh
I hope your character can still do something when he's outside that vehicle, because he won't be able to stay in it forever.
Moreover, vehicles don't have and oveflow monitor and can't be healed like living creatures (which is really easy with a medkit + heal spell). From my experience, when an attack has enough punch to bypass the hardened armor (which is not that hard in most cases), the vehicle is usually wasted. That's why I prefer having several cheap drones over a single super-drone with all imaginable options and improvements.
On the other hand, if your character is also a summoner, you could opt for a possession-oriented tradition and posses your drone to reinforce it (though I'm not 100% sure that you can still control the drone in that case).
Serial_Peacemaker
Well I do believe there is a repair spell. Also have you thought of naming his little wheel chair of doom Stormbringer and making him albino?
Jaid
a few notes:

1) whoever said you can't cast through windows that are clear from one side and mirrored from the other is wrong. as long as they are optical as opposed to electronic, you can cast through it just fine.

2) actually, a mage *can* repair a vehicle quite easily. there is a spell that does it. alternately, a plant spirit great form regeneration power should theoretically work, but feels really off thematically.

3) if you wish to act as a face, i recommend using a holoprojector. the average mr. johnson should be able to accept that more easily than a vehicle, at least.

4) get yourself some smart wheels. well worth the investment imo to be able to handle stairs and such, and the bonus to handling isn't bad either. heck, it doesn't even take up a slot!
Rasumichin
Also, you might be faced wih non-freight-elevators and similar obstacles unable to support the weight of your vehicle.
A powerful levitation spell might come in handy, though i'm not sure exactly how powerful it has to be to lift a PMV.
Of course, it will not help you in cases where doors and other openings are just too tight for you to sqeeze through.
In such cases (which don't even require a particularly sadistic GM, but are, in fact, quite likely and plausible), any build based around an "i never have to leave my cozy discount powerarmor anyway" approach faces serious problems.
Keep that in mind when statting out your PC.
siel
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Feb 17 2008, 08:41 PM) *
I can't believe that I completely missed that someone made the Wild Weasel as an official vehicle.

You must mount a laser cannon on this vehicle and name the character Jack Rockwell.

QUOTE (Serial_Peacemaker @ Feb 18 2008, 02:47 PM) *
Well I do believe there is a repair spell. Also have you thought of naming his little wheel chair of doom Stormbringer and making him albino?

I thought of giving the character the name/alias "King",  like stephen hawking. It also fitted the background where he is/believes that he is a king of some kingdom.
I'll consider naming my vehicle though. Laser cannon might be a bit tough (takes up lots of slots if I want it hidden), but I'll consider naming the vehicle Stormbringer if I do get that cannon.
As for albino, I should have picked allergy sunlight or something. Another player's character is allergic to soy whereas my character is allergic to plan
kton/algae. It will be a fun debate whenever that comes up. What do you mean you can't eat SOY, SOY is the source of ALL LIFE (used to rule a chinese kingdom, or something)


QUOTE (Odsh @ Feb 18 2008, 12:53 PM) *
I hope your character can still do something when he's outside that vehicle, because he won't be able to stay in it forever.
Moreover, vehicles don't have and oveflow monitor and can't be healed like living creatures (which is really easy with a medkit + heal spell). From my experience, when an attack has enough punch to bypass the hardened armor (which is not that hard in most cases), the vehicle is usually wasted. That's why I prefer having several cheap drones over a single super-drone with all imaginable options and improvements.
On the other hand, if your character is also a summoner, you could opt for a possession-oriented tradition and posses your drone to reinforce it (though I'm not 100% sure that you can still control the drone in that case).

I understand that the character is extremely fragile without his vehicle and there WILL be times when he need to get out. That seems like part of the challenge/roleplay though.

Medkit+heal spell takes a rather long time to do, time that you are not likely to have during battles.
It does bring the problem of repairing the vehicle. The Fix spell Serial Peacemaker mentioned wouldn't really work. "Fix can repair any item with a weight equal to the Force x the spellcaster’s hits in kilograms or less."
On the other hand, I can summon task spirits, would that be enough to deal with downtime repairs?

I'd imagine that most people would be dead if hit by whatever that can kill a vehicle. It has body of 6 and armor of 12, which is as good as most non orc/troll get.
Which is why i'm hoping to reduce the chance of people targetting the PMV by staying in the back (or another place entirely) as support.

Would armor and deflection spell work on the vehicle?
I'm also thinking about having the spirit cast concealment, combined with the chamelon coating, it should be fairly hard to spot.. i hope


QUOTE (Jaid @ Feb 18 2008, 02:52 PM) *
a few notes:

1) whoever said you can't cast through windows that are clear from one side and mirrored from the other is wrong. as long as they are optical as opposed to electronic, you can cast through it just fine.

2) actually, a mage *can* repair a vehicle quite easily. there is a spell that does it. alternately, a plant spirit great form regeneration power should theoretically work, but feels really off thematically.

3) if you wish to act as a face, i recommend using a holoprojector. the average mr. johnson should be able to accept that more easily than a vehicle, at least.

4) get yourself some smart wheels. well worth the investment imo to be able to handle stairs and such, and the bonus to handling isn't bad either. heck, it doesn't even take up a slot!

1) In this case, there's a drone cocoon, so I don't think theyre will be a window for me to cast through
2) you need to beat threshold of 4, and you can't get enough force x hits to repair the vehicle unless you house rule it :/
3) thanks for the idea, i'll probably do that. The idea of a bust-a-move dancing while I talk seems hilarious though.
4) will do. Forgot about the smart tires since they are in the other section. Was a bit concerned about the speed, but I'll probably work on a truck or van for the PMV to go into. Even with smart tires,  It will be faster than people on foot. Also, with spirit's movement power, I will be able to go much faster.



Here are some more questions
Is it actually okay to put rigger cocoon in the PMV? Is it meant to be used that way?

Also, since the PMV has a walker mode. Does it get +1 handling and its speed/acceleration halved when in walker mode?
Rasumichin
QUOTE (siel @ Feb 18 2008, 11:23 PM) *
It also fitted the background where he is/believes that he is a king of some kingdom.


Delusions is a handicap worth 10 BP.
Keep that in mind. wink.gif

QUOTE
On the other hand, I can summon task spirits, would that be enough to deal with downtime repairs?


Repair times could pose a problem here, since a summoned spirit will not stick around longer than until the next sunrise or sunset.
This could result either in repeated summonings or binding to get the work done.
Still, it might be the best option for you.

QUOTE
Would armor and deflection spell work on the vehicle?


Physical spells would work on a vehicle.

QUOTE
I'm also thinking about having the spirit cast concealment, combined with the chamelon coating, it should be fairly hard to spot.. i hope


It will be, assuming a high-powered spirit is involved.
However, you will receive no concealment on the astral plane, as it is a physical power.
Jaid
QUOTE (siel @ Feb 18 2008, 05:23 PM) *
Also, since the PMV has a walker mode. Does it get +1 handling and its speed/acceleration halved when in walker mode?

the simplest answer to that question is that it doesn't actually have a walker mode, it just has a wheeled mode that you would use when you otherwise would want to be walking, which they therefore call 'walking mode'.

as far as being unable to fit into regular doorways and such, i don't see that being a huge problem. if it can park in 1/3 the space as a regular car, consider that it's going to have to be 1/3 as wide as a normal car. now i don't know that i've ever specifically measured the width of the average car, but i'm pretty confident it's less than 12 feet (quite probably under 9 feet even... when someone lays across a car seat (speaking from experience) they tend to fill up the entire length, so probably closer to 7 feet), and iirc isn't a 'standard' door supposed to be 7' x 4'? (on a side note, if it is also just a little bit taller than someone when in standing mode, that's probably going to be less than 7' tall also)

so it might have a hard time fitting through narrow or short doorways and such, but the average doorway will fit one i would think.
Odsh
QUOTE (siel @ Feb 18 2008, 05:23 PM) *
I'd imagine that most people would be dead if hit by whatever that can kill a vehicle. It has body of 6 and armor of 12, which is as good as most non orc/troll get.


Well the problem is, GMs usually don't like invulnerable PCs. Moreover, they may be reluctant to kill a PC, but destroying their vehicle is a perfectly acceptable alternative smile.gif
A PC can be stunned, mindcontrollerd, put to sleep with neurostun or you can damage them just enough to put them in overflow in case they have a pain editor. For a vehicle like yours, there are not many options apart from destroying it (I suppose since you're inside it that hacking it from the outside won't be an option). So you can be sure that sooner or later you'll be hit by an attack capable of penetrating that vehicle's hardened armor, i.e. more than 12DV. It will soak 6 with its 18 dice and the remaining will fill in those 11 boxes on its only damage track quite quickly. And even if you're hit only once, it will be in a quite bad shape and it'll take quite some time to repair it.
Well all I'm saying is that maybe you're relying a bit too much on your drone.
For example, what will you do if you have to travel by plane and leave your drone behind? What if you are captured and left without your gear? If you have to infiltrate an enemy group? What if you find yourself trapped in a metaplane or an UV host? Such things happen to Shadowrunners...
Jaid
QUOTE (Odsh @ Feb 18 2008, 07:32 PM) *
Well the problem is, GMs usually don't like invulnerable PCs. Moreover, they may be reluctant to kill a PC, but destroying their vehicle is a perfectly acceptable alternative smile.gif
A PC can be stunned, mindcontrollerd, put to sleep with neurostun or you can damage them just enough to put them in overflow in case they have a pain editor. For a vehicle like yours, there are not many options apart from destroying it (I suppose since you're inside it that hacking it from the outside won't be an option). So you can be sure that sooner or later you'll be hit by an attack capable of penetrating that vehicle's hardened armor, i.e. more than 12DV. It will soak 6 with its 18 dice and the remaining will fill in those 11 boxes on its only damage track quite quickly. And even if you're hit only once, it will be in a quite bad shape and it'll take quite some time to repair it.
Well all I'm saying is that maybe you're relying a bit too much on your drone.
For example, what will you do if you have to travel by plane and leave your drone behind? What if you are captured and left without your gear? If you have to infiltrate an enemy group? What if you find yourself trapped in a metaplane or an UV host? Such things happen to Shadowrunners...

he *is* a mage, you know. blowing stuff up with his brain is kinda his thing. as is calling for help out of thin air.
siel
Ah yes, delusional is worth 10 bp.

he does have a formula pact with a spirit- immunity to age, so maybe he WAS a king from the 1500s when kings come in the thousands. wink.gif


As to Odsh's concern. They can destroy the vehicle quite easily, but cocoon will be harder. So i'll lose a very expensive vehicle.

If we are outgunned to the point that the rest of the team get captured my guy will probably just surrender as well. At least at this point the PMV isn't cybered up with two cyber arm and filled with lasercannon, the enemy shouldn't have as much incentive to destroy it..


I do see your point on how he relies too much on the vehicle. When he is not in the vehicle, he'll still pack a punch from his magical prowess. With no body and armor and initiative to speak off, he's very likely to end up dead very very soon.

I found out about possession-oriented tradition a bit late to work that into the build. Hmm i wonder if it's possible to ask the gm to allow both materialization and possession oriented tradition after initiation and some metamagic feat
Rasumichin
QUOTE (siel @ Feb 19 2008, 02:18 AM) *
I found out about possession-oriented tradition a bit late to work that into the build. Hmm i wonder if it's possible to ask the gm to allow both materialization and possession oriented tradition after initiation and some metamagic feat


Not by RAW.

Unless you create an ally.
Iirc, the rules don't state that it has to interact with the world in the way spirits of your traditon usually do, so a mage following a posession-based tradition could summon an ally spirit that materializes.

And using your PMV as vessel for a spirit is an interesting idea (even though a plasteel homunculus might rock more, i'd have to check this out later)- it would greatly increase your vehicles survivability, giving it additional immunity to normal weapons and increasing its body.

The question is wether it would still be possible to cast spells from within a posessed vehicle, since you are practically sitting inside the spirits aura.
Jaid
QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Feb 19 2008, 09:27 AM) *
Not by RAW.

Unless you create an ally.
Iirc, the rules don't state that it has to interact with the world in the way spirits of your traditon usually do, so a mage following a posession-based tradition could summon an ally spirit that materializes.

And using your PMV as vessel for a spirit is an interesting idea (even though a plasteel homunculus might rock more, i'd have to check this out later)- it would greatly increase your vehicles survivability, giving it additional immunity to normal weapons and increasing its body.

The question is wether it would still be possible to cast spells from within a posessed vehicle, since you are practically sitting inside the spirits aura.

your ally spirit cannot be of a type contrary to your tradition; that is, if you are a possession tradition, you cannot have a manifesting ally, and if you a manifesting tradition, you cannot have a possessing ally.

either way, you can have an inhabiting ally, however... which is probably slightly more like a possession spirit than it is like a manifesting spirit.
siel
So while by RAW you can't have a mage with both materialization and possession tradition. Is it conceivable to have a houserule that allow it through quest/metamagic feat?

Or is it one of the no-no (like no time/space) of magic in shadowrun?

Just curious on what it would take to implement such possibility without it being unbalancing. I mean, if you made a summoner character, the next logical step would be to initiate and get invoking. There's really no other path for summoner to advanced to. So maybe the option to broaden the options that a summoner would have would be nice, assuming it has enough drawbacks or cost enough for it to not be game-breaking.
Jaid
QUOTE (siel @ Feb 19 2008, 08:58 PM) *
So while by RAW you can't have a mage with both materialization and possession tradition. Is it conceivable to have a houserule that allow it through quest/metamagic feat?

Or is it one of the no-no (like no time/space) of magic in shadowrun?

Just curious on what it would take to implement such possibility without it being unbalancing. I mean, if you made a summoner character, the next logical step would be to initiate and get invoking. There's really no other path for summoner to advanced to. So maybe the option to broaden the options that a summoner would have would be nice, assuming it has enough drawbacks or cost enough for it to not be game-breaking.

i personally would not allow it as a general rule, but i am sure it is *possible*. not necessarily easy, but possible.

long story short, it would probably require training from ghostwalker or some similar 4th world being. we know, canonically speaking, that ghostwalker has access to pretty much whatever kind of spirit he bloody well feels like, tradition notwithstanding.

(alternately, you could just have them make a lot of spirit pacts and/or bind free spirits. that would work too).
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