Something's been bothering me about getting hurt: pain! It's always bothered me that characters can, in the span of 3 seconds, get shot several times and return fire with little to no problem. I think, after getting wounded, you should make some sort of test to see if the character loses one or several actions moaning in pain, screaming, looking around confused, etc. This is sort of like Raygun's rule about combat shock or whatever it's called. You'd think having a slug impact against your skin might cause you to grab your arm in pain for a little bit before resuming shooting the mofo that just did this to you. Something like a willpower vs TN of 2x the wound level (i.e moderate wound = TN4 and Serious = TN6)... Yes, no?

That's pretty much what the wound penalty represents. Adding something more severe pretty much guarantees that once you get hit, you're going to die.

You lose Initiative to the degree of your wound modifier. Between that and the fact that everything suddenly becomes harder, I'd say that's enough of a penalty.

~J

I'll vote "No," fairly emphatically.

Shadowrun is one of the few games that I've seen with "pain" rules built into the system, very integral to the system. You have representations built right into the skill and combat systems of how badly your actions are modified by pain and injury. If a PC takes a bad bruise (light wound or medium stun), he is hampered from performing his tasks very clearly and distinctly. In most games, you have to go digging for optional rules to find the effects of pain. Some, like classic versions of DnD, let you function normally until you're nearly dead. Not Shadowrun. You cannot read the combat section of the main book and miss that, when your PC gets hurt, the pain affects virtually every action.

Target numbers climb up as the PC struggles with pain and the actual damage of injuries. (A medium physical wound to an unarmored individual may involve cut tendons. On top of the pain, the damaged limb simply doesn't work right. On the other hand, a medium physical wound to someone with armor may represent a bad bruise/hemotoma and cracked ribs which do not actually inhibit motions, but hurt like a bastard.) That reflects injured arms trying to hold a gun steady on a distant target, trying to flex bruised abdomenal (sp) muscles while breaking free of a hold in unarmed combat, or trying to bypass a maglock with a skull still ringing after being pistol-whipped.

The only people who technically ignore those "pain/shock/confusion" effects are those with various forms of pain tolerance, be it magical (physad pain tolerance), technological (damage compensators), or just Hollywood Action Star Manliness (the edge pain tolerance).

The game system has pain effects built in. It is up to the players to take note of how badly they are hampered (+1 to TN from a minor wound, +3 from a gut shot, etc.) and then describe how their characters are behaving in response to the pain.

Personally, I let the numbers speak for me in combat. IMO, combat is one of the worst times to roleplay because it is the most rules- and rollplaying-intensive part of the game. After combat, sure, I'll describe my PCs' response to injuries, and interpret good or bad skill rolls based on the level of injury. ("Flubbed my electronics test. I guess I didn't get the maglock open - must've been that pistol-whipping.")

Actually, come to think of it, the knockdown/back rules are pretty well indicitive of being stunned by a hit.

There (if my memory works today) a rule in MechWarrior third edition about this sort of 'shock' - an injured person had to spend a simple action recovering for the shock of a wound - this slowed down the game and was a pain in the behind so my group dumped it

My not humble opinion is that the TN penalty is good enough and it works nicely so why change what isn't broken

ferrit

}lurking again for the next six months{

If I was to include a system for this, I'd use the system almost exactly like Raygun has it written up here, except that I'd just make the character reroll his Willpower every action until s/he manages a success. Until s/he does, s/he won't be capable of doing much more than perhaps screaming and writhing. Also, since I don't like Edges that much, I'd probably use a skill instead for Combat Experience, which could give its rating in dice for the Shock test.

However, making the skill Active would mean that people would almost assuredly not get it above level 1 or 2, making it Knowledge would lead to everyone having it at 6. So I guess an Edge might be better after all. But then at least I'd allow character to buy it in-game. Level x 2 extra dice for the Shock test? Or perhaps -1 TN for the test per level? (No rules for it on Raygun's site, yet.) With a cost of 1 point per level, max lvl 4? In-game cost 5 karma/level? 10/level? (Can't remember the official amount of karma to get rid of a Flaw.)

[Edit]Oops. Actually, I would change one more thing: I'd force the Shock test even when you only take Light damage. And I don't think Knockdown is a good system for this, since it only makes you MOVE, it doesn't affect your ability to fight, other than the possible +2TN for actions when you can't back up enough; and Knockdown is about Body, Shock about Willpower.[/Edit]

It's not very likely that I'll use that kind of a rule right now, maybe next time we start a modern/future game.

yeah, I think making use of the knockdown rules in conjunction with the normal wound level modifiers do a great job of simulating pain in every sense except the roleplaying sense.

I keep my players hooked up to electrodes (taped to their forearm) throughout the whole game. When their character feels pain, I shock them. Does wonders for the roleplaying.

Strangely enough, they all became stealth experts with all sorts of abilities and gizmos to avoid combat. Weird.

That's lame. I have implanted them all with an electrical system that operates directly on their nervous system in equivalence for their character's pain.

And I make them all play street samurais.

The current penalities are indeed very good, but the inntial shock of the hit isn't really covered. I mean, -2 init isn't exactly a major shock (unless you go from 11 to 9.. hehe).

So I am tending more towards what Austere is saying. But I wouldn't make a skill or anything like that to help. Maybe use karma/10 to represent the fact that experience helps deal with it, but I'm not sure about it. The idea is that combat sammies wouldn't really get slowed down by anything except Serious wounds, but hitting a ganger with a moderate or light wound would disable him until he manages to focus again.

Why not just double or otherwise change the initiative penalties?

Mmmmmm... yummy knockdown rules....

>Spookymonster grabs his Roomsweeper loaded with Bolo rounds<

[edit]
...or was it Gel rounds? I always forget which is better...

What about knockdown from grenades or explosives that are fully soaked? say the gren go's off, but you resist the damage (somehow) do you just whipe the dust off and emerge from the smoke like super hero? or go flying back into the wall? Hmm had this hought when mini grenades were being fully soaked on a dock . Boat to boat combat. I would think, if the wood didnt eveaporate, you be tossed off without passing an athletics/quickness test? Maybe I should have started another thread, but This seems to fit here.

Soaking the damage and being knocked down by the hit are seperate from each other from my reading of the knockdown stuff. And then of course with the dock, it has a barrier rating, if it gets blown up and the characters are on it, they're probably going to be trying to swim shortly, unless they were on the edge of the blast radius and had a chance to make it to stable footing really quickly.

I double the init penalty, myself. And once I spilled a Coke on my players pain electrodes. Wow, that was funny.

For me.

Not them.

Okay then. My GM's have never done knockdown unless you took the damage. Thanks for clearing that up.

if you're really cruel, you can rule that the meter or two you get knocked back by a hit counts against your total movement for the turn, and imposes 'attacker walking' penalties.

it's important to make the chars roll knockdown every time they take a hit. yes, it slows gameplay down--but that's the point. a running gun battle between two teams of six or eight characters each should take more than three seconds to resolve.

I think we're forgetting something here.

If I hit my thumb with a hammer, I'll go "ow!", swear, and stop for a moment to let the pain go down. That's definately some sort of action lost. But then, I have a professional rating of 1.

Trained combatants may pause for a fraction of a second (as per the initative loss), but nothing more. Almost definately not enough to lose anything more than a free action, and maybe not even that. These people aren't exactly unused to pain and shock, so I'd be far more likely to see training and adrenaline take over in the moment. They'll lose some ability, but not quite an action.

I have no problem with noncombatants, and even minor-threat ones, losing actions to pain, but for any shadowrunner or threat worthy of their attention, this sort of thing simply isn't quite as jarring as it would be to your average Dumpshock poster.

Nope, we ain't forgetting that.

If you assume that all shadowrunners have gotten shot innumerable times during their lives, then it makes sense never to impose such a shock. I don't. At least I wouldn't consider that to be the norm. I doubt that, if you took a poll on how many times the average RL professional criminal has been shot, you'd end up with a figure greater than maybe a few.

Some types are more likely to have been shot a lot. Mercs, sure. Street sammies, why not. Faces? Drone riggers? Deckers? Because there are loads of characters that are very likely not to have had loads of combat experience, it makes absolute sense to me that Combat Experience should be an "Edge", or perhaps a skill.

Why is it possible for someone to have certain things in their background, but as soon as it comes to prior combat excperience you have a problem with it?

I don't. They can have all the combat experience they want in their background, but it won't actually help them in combat. Just like someone can have written in his background that he's teh shit with Assault Cannons, but that won't help him at all if his only combat skill is Pistols at 2.

I'm having a hell of a hard time figuring out what you guys want to simulate here!

Losing time/actions after being hit? That's the initiative penalty.
Stumbling after being struck? That's knockback.
Distraction from pain? That's a TN penalty.
Untrained combatants freezing up in the heat of battle? That's combat paralysis.

If you're looking for something "kinda like combat paralysis but not as bad", just make up a flaw that's worth fewer points. Problem solved!

How about:
Trained combatants freezing up after being hit? That's the Sudden Shock.

Okay, time for me to chime in 'cause I think pain and the effects of injury are a real shortcoming in most SR games.

I've bumbed into things, hit my head, got a jab or a slap, cut myself, fell of a bike numerous times in my life. Enough to call it 'experience' at any rate. I've even been hit with a 80 pound wooden bar once. My was swollen for a week.
However, when I get hit by someone or fall or hurt/cut myself in any other way I still go 'ouch!', grab hold of the hurting part and take a second to settle down. In Shadowrun terms this would be a complex action.
Of course you can argue that I wouldn't behave like that in live-threatening situations with all the adrenalin in my blood and stuff. I don't know. The only live threatening and high-adrenalin situation I was ever in was a car-crash and I was so jammed that I didn't know which pedal was the break and which the gas.

I think you have to be shot in combat a horribly often (like, once in a week for the last half-year) to be that hardened that you wouldn't be shocked if you had a bullet entering your body. Every cop, every soldier goes down in shock when hit by a bullet. Sure, they recover and keep fighting. They're trained professionals after all. But they will stop for a second. Even if it's only out of surprise of being hit.
I think this justifies making combat experience an (expensive) edge.

Or a Deadly hit!

I was mostly just joking around with that.

I think that if a hit is likey to cause a combatant to lose actions it also likely to affect them per the knockdown rules. Alternativley you could just make the knockdown TNs higher or rule that some success keeps you from falling back/down but not being distracted by the hit. So, a simple expansion or slight reworking of the knockdown rules are pretty much all you need. And maybe an edge or complementary skill that helps with the roll...

I just don't seem to think it's something that horribly needed. Although I will admit, if someone take a Serious wound they're most likely going to feel it, no matter the training envolved, but Shadowrun is a mostly abstracted system so I think leaving that in the realm of the roleplayer is adequate enough.

I don't think you get hardened towards physical damage that fast. It takes quite a while to not be affected by a bullet wound any more. It's part of the instinctive reaction of the body going into shock. They are paralized. This is why a shot in the arm with a teflon coated round can kill you. The shock for your body is so great that it simply dies - from shock.
It takes time for the body to adapt such instinctive actions. Lots of time.

Stunning's not such a great idea. I can give you a fine example why, and why I stopped using the rules.

White Wolf's combat system has a stunning rule. If a character takes more than his stamina in wound levels (generally 3+ wounds) in a round, they're stunned. Can't take an action the next round. Can't dodge. Can't defend in combat. You know, cuz of the pain and all.

Well, in a changeling game, I saw a childling (kid - 10 years old) sneak up on a combat monster in chainmail with a broadsword. The childling had a switchblade. Combat monster misses his swing. Childling gets a lucky stab - 3 damage, which is the rough equivalent to a powerlifter or physically fit but talented scrapper punching you. Because said combat monster was relying on armor rather than a super-high stamina (he had 2 stamina - average!) he gets stunned.

Next round: childling stabs combat monster. Target number very low, because of the relatively stationary and stunned combat monster. Combat monster cannot dodge. Combat monster takes 10 levels of damage - which is 2 more than anyone who's unwounded can take. Combat monster dies from a kid sticking a knife in his eye.

Not a good plan. Especially in game where combat is, on many levels, unavoidable at some point.

I'm not suggesting you get hardened towards physical damage. It's more like being in loads of pain constantly (because of being wounded earlier), so adding a bit more pain won't have as significant an effect.

The reason why teflon coated bullets can kill you is that they are no different from any other kinds of bullets... Armor piercing, non-fragmenting, non-deforming bullets can kill you mostly because they bore holes into you, and at best they can bore pretty damn big holes. For more on "teflon coated bullets", read this article, found on Raygun's site, originally from The American Rifleman, Feb 1989

As for melee combat... Well, like I said, I'm not going to use the rule for a medieval fantasy game, which ought to tell you something. I don't have a good reason to differentiate between ranged and melee combat with the shock rules, but it somehow seems intuitive to me. Maybe it has something to do with how melee combat might be more of a constant physical struggle, and there are a lot of scrapes and bumps anyway, so a hit that does land a bit better might not cause that much of a shock.

On the other hand, I have no problems with a guy getting stabbed in the back being at a distinct disadvantage afterwards.

MrSandman666: that's exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not saying your gonna drop to the floor and moan like a baby for half an hour.

But a SR combat turn is 3 SECONDS! So even if you go "Ooof" and put a hand to where the bullet just hit you, that's at least a Simple action, if not a complex, just cause a combat turn is insanely fast. And since there is a test involved, it wouldn't happen all the time. Adrenaline might very well cause you to suck it up and keep going, or maybe it's just not so bad, or you expected it so it doesn't shock you (you know, 'surprise' pain makes people yelp a lot more than expected pain), etc. Doubling the innitiative panalty for the first Turn you get hit might be a good way to slow you down, without crippling you, or losing a simple.

Actually the initiative minus only occurs te round you take the wound, thus it acts very much like a shock of getting hit wound, not a conserving energy play. So I have to disagree with you entirely.

No, the initiative loss is like the other modifiers, a permanent minus (for the duration of the wound, that is).

~J

Huh, then my GM totally miss read another post on this board...it was here he found that, I personally hadn't looked. But very nice to know. thanks.

just to throw a monkey wrench in the process would you rule a person with high pain tolerance wouldn't get shocked as easily? if so how would you modify your rules?

Reduce TN by level of pain resist.

quoting directly from Raygun's rule, which I agree will do the job, modified by needing to roll every turn until you snap out of it:

To address all the pain and damage compensation/dampening systems:

High Pain Tolerance, Pain Resistance and Damage Compensation:
Sudden Shock only applies when the effects of the damage apply in the first place. Example:

Joe Runner the Street Sammy has rating 3 Damage Compensators. Bob the Ganger shoots Joe in the back with a Predator. Joe's armor fails him and he ends up with M Physical damage. Since Joe can ignore the effects of those 3 boxes of damage, he doesn't have to roll for Sudden Shock at this point.

Unfortunately, Bob's buddy Jake also shoots Joe in the back with a Predator, and Joe get's another M wound. Now Joe is facing an effective M wound, with +2 TNs, etc. He also has to roll with his Willpower of 5 against a TN of 5 (3 + 2 TN). He rolls 1, 1, 3, 3, 4 -- the attack causes Joe to freeze up for at least one Initiative Pass.

On his next action, he'll roll against the same TN again with the same dice to see if he'll snap out of it. Unless of course the gangers finish him up before that.

Note that Joe doesn't get the -1 TN for a subsequent shot, because he effectively didn't get wounded at all the first time around. Someone might want to rule differently, to make HPT/PR/DC more effective against Sudden Shock.

Pain Editor (and similar effects, if there are any):
No Sudden Shock as long as the Pain Editor is on. W00t.

[Edit]How about that... We managed to answer the question in entirely different ways. Oh well, it's house ruling, and this part of the discussion can't really be based on any real world knowledge, so: Meh.[/Edit]

Oh heck. Just read the rule completely as it is on Raygun's site: