Testing out the multi-poll options on the new boards, and making a poll for (*gasp*!) SR4.

So, what are everyone's opinions on creating new traditions or mentor spirits? Do you allow players to do it freely, like customizing a drone? Do you put limits on it, like making groups *really* hard to create/find for a custom tradition? Do you do it yourself, and spring it on your players as a bit of a nasty surprise?

I pretty much allow it. Regardless. I get final say, and I ask that the person who makes the tradition (if it isn't me) write up very specific information about how it works, but it only adds to the flavor of a character. The downside that I've found is that it's hard for me to remember what the spirits represent for non-canon traditions, but the players haven't minded as far as I can tell.

Speaking of non-traditional traditions.. Is there actually an Elvis tradition statted up somewhere?

I allow both. I also marked GM/Player collaboration; I want to at least see what they are doing, but in the end, it's their character and i don't want to rain on their parade if they are really into something; unless it would TOTALLY throw things off. Then of course i'll attempt a compromise.

And restrictions i put really depending on the situation, so i marked 'other' for that one. But yeah, im good with this. I think it adds something to the game.

I would allow them created under collaboration, with restrictions on groups, metamagics and additionally: must be cool.

I'm potentially willing to work with a character who, for some reason, can't do what they want with the normal rules. But only if that's the reason, and it's legitimate. If I get the vibe that they're just trying to work the system for purely mechanical benefit then no, they can pick out of the standard options in the book(s) and min-max to the best of their ability.

Creating your own tradition requires a lot of work -- most of the basic ones listed in canon have their own histories and beliefs established outside of canon, and for a player to come up with some equivalent background would be quite impressive. Still, if they're willing to do it, I'm willing to work with it, so long as they are the type of player that can stick to the complex story and tradition they've created.

I voted restrictions on spirits, but all I really mean is that spirits must be the standard spirits in the book. It's kind of hard to min-max them as all the spirits have good options available to them, and no tradition can have them all.

When I made the "urban shaman" I'm currently playing, I was worried that I was being too twinky (which I normally try to avoid). Basically, I ended up deciding that the "urban shaman" bit would be a tradition, rather than having, say, Seattle be a mentor spirit. For one thing, I made it a possession tradition, and that right there can be controversial (my character's name is StreetGod, and the idea is that he is the embodiment of the city, so he channels the local spirits of whatever neighborhood he's in). However, to go along with this tradition, I took the "city geas" listed in Street Magic as an example geas (I have another thread on exactly what this means). Of all the sessions the character's taken part in, a little under half have been in an urban environment. So considering that more often than not, my possession tradition means "no magic, unless you want to risk permanently losing 2 of 3 magic points," I don't really feel it's that twinky anymore. It mostly just gives me some solid reasons not to always be bumming around the team hideout with the rest of the nerds. They're all always cleaning their weapons or working on their drones, or whatever, and StreetGod's always out "communing with the city," which feels more like having an actual life.

Then for the mentor spirit, I totally ripped off Northern Exposure and took the Stick Man as my totem. For those that haven't seen the show, he was basically the embodiment of the shaman character's fears and insecurities, manifested as a jerk. So StreetGod's got this dwarf that shows up and eats all his food and taunts him about things he's worried about. To get it to stop, StreetGod needs to become more self-assured by tackling his problems head-on. The bonuses conferred by the Stick Man are a bonus to Detection spells and Guidance spirits, and the drawback is a penalty to Illusion spells (the point being that StreetGod needs to solve his problems by cutting through bullshit, rather than creating it). I think it's easy to stay away from being cheesy with creating mentor spirits, because they're so formulaic--the bonuses on most of them add up to the same number of dice, and so do the penalties. I think it's usually a bonus die on 2 things, and a penalty die on 1 thing, though I'm not entirely sure right off the top of my head. And now that I think about it, it's that way with most traditions, too, if you don't bring in the possession element. But anyway, my mentor spirit just leaves me kind of screwed, because the types of runs StreetGod's been on have all called for Illusion spells ALL the time, and I may have used a Detection spell once...For the most part, StreetGod only uses Detection spells and Guidance spirits during his day-to-day life. And while that may be way more often than the running stuff, it's not the stuff I'm actively in control for.

Anything the player wants, as long as it is consistent. I would not demand as much work as has been invested in Street Magic traditions, but there has to be a reason for things, beyond "those spirits are cool". I´m also fine with changeing things for the established traditions. While I like those, there are many valid viewpoints for the same thing, and I´m not into limiting my players imagination just because I can.

I missed the option of "I encourage them to go custom" for the first question...

For me to allow a custom tradition in it has to really add something to the personality of the character and create good roleplay opportunities, purely munchy traditions get canned.

It´s hard to really munch a tradition. I´d be careful to avoid summoning traditions with guardian, sage and labour spirits. Any skill present at any time, and at high ratings, too. Even if I generally am happy to let a player have the most liked spirit configuration.

Mentors can be tuned, I mostly watch for the disadvantages. If the player tunes the mentor to fit the char, the connection may fit as well as if done the other way round. The mentor mods should always fit the mentors characteristics, that is a given.

I'm probably a little tighter than most on how I apply the "Munch" tag. I agree it's hard to munch a tradition in the more traditional sense of just getting a benefit for virtually no drawback while adhereing to the letter but not the spirit of the rules. I frequently take it a step further and say no to things that are inconsistent with the flavor of the character being developed or created. Sometimes this can be fixed with a back story change (for a new character) sometimes not. I like to have Characters in my game, not tuned stat sheets with a name.

Voodoo, in Street Magic has those three spirits already, so I have less of a problem with that.

Oh, yes. But I´ll stand by what I said. Even without the "Summoning" limiter

He's mostly talking about non-Possession traditions getting the ability to bind task spirits, I think. That's a potentially big problem, as you can effectively have any skill on call, at a high rating.

I tend to allow anything really just so long as it's discussed with me. Then again I game with a large and eclectic group pf pagans so we can apply out real world opinions to the system.

Definitely. I have occasionally been known to let my inner Munchkin show through, and even having prior permission from the GM, I thought that a Materialization Tradition with access to Task Spirits is a bit much.

In what way is that different from possession traditions though? If you bring some supplies, possession traditions and materialization traditions aren't that different unless you're pressed for time.

Sam1: "Aw frag, Jim's brought the inflatable elf doll again."
Sam2: "He's got three more in his pack too."
Jim: "Shut up! I told you they are important for my magic!"
Sam1: "Yea, just don't leave any 'ritual links' on them, all right?"
Jim: "I said shut up!"

Okay, so inflatable dolls don't have working joints, but it made the story funnier. A collection of emotitoys works just as well. I'd have thought possession traditions would be worse, because it allows a character (or a whole team, with enough services!) to use skills they don't normally have access to, even at high level, that can only affect themselves. "If only we all had climbing at rating 6, we could escape this trap!" is easily granted by a possession tradition. (Okay, maybe not easily; it's a lot of drain.)

I'm cool with whatever. Traditions are not very important to me... Mentors and the bonus's you get are the only things I would want to double check. As long as they are not some stupid custom bonus's that are out of line compared to any other tradition/mentor. Most +2 to one thing, +2 to another, some kinda penalty or willpower test.

It's the part where you need to make the preparation. See, Possession traditions are the hermetic mages of SR4; they're actually more powerful than the shamans/Manifesting tradition when it comes to spirits, but they need more prep work.

At least that's how I understand it. I still haven't very much direct experience with SR4 rules, even years after the rules have come out.

I think it's important to make new mentors and traditions based on a theme. You have to pick an idea, then ask yourself "what would something with this theme do?"

If you do it the other way around, you're just kicking game balance in the nuts. If you think "Ok, Combat spells and guardian spirits are the two best things, and there's no mentor that gives a bonus to both, so I'll make one," then the mentor just exists for the twink factor. Same with traditions - if you think "Ok, voodoo is cool, but intuition is a more useful drain attribute since it also determines initiative and dodge," and then you just make a version of voodoo with an intuition drain, the trad serves no purpose other than to circumvent the balanced trads provided in the book.

Not that it would totally kill your game to allow whatever. I just don't like the idea of a tradition or mentor being based first on its stats and second on its theme. Traditions and mentors are some of the most stylized, thematic, cool things in the game. If your mentor's theme is "I want to get the best bonuses based on my perception of the best way to twink out," it's not going to be very cool.

So, to give an example of what I think is the right way to make a mentor, say you're thinking "Hey, a shrew mentor spirit would be cool." First, you think about the attributes of a shrew - it's small, fast, it burrows, it's incredibly viscious, and doesn't back down from even much larger foes. Its sheer visciousness makes a +2 to combat apt, and maybe its burrowing means that earth spirits would make sense. And then the disadvantage might be a willpower + intuition (3) test to back down from a fight.

If you do it the other way, you're putting power over theme. I'm all for powergaming, but when it comes to custom gear and magical advantages, they should only be added to improve the game's theme. If the player wants to create something brand new and untested because the book doesn't allow them to twink out as much as they want to, that should be a red flag. The book allows PLENTY of twinking. No need to add more.

Plus, as a dedicated powergamer, I think it doesn't really count if you make custom stuff to help you twink. You couldn't show up on Dumpshock and brag about how your character kicks ass because you created custom rules that give him his amazing abilities. That's nothing to brag about. There's a lot of ways to exploit the game's rules and make something kickass. If you have to change the game rules to achieve that, it's just pathetic

Because they don't need a vessel of any kind to instantly have a companion with any Skill in the book (and some that aren't).

Yeah whatever. I mean, I'd prefer it if they re branded an existing tradition, but if you want to play something else, well, its got to be less broken than voodoo so go for it!

Mentors are a different issue. Again, any combination of skill + spirit limited by disadvantage should be fine, but I reserve the right to amp up costs.

Edit: Reality is it is a co-operative story telling game, so its about building a common idea with that person, and the director/DM making sure that fits with what everyone else wants to do.

I don't entirely agree with this philosophy. On general principle, picking the stats you want and trying to hammer a story into it like a square peg in a round hole is bad, of course. On the other hand, as long as you remain flexible, starting with the stats you think you want is still fine. Some of my best ideas started out as powergame ideas; but once I started to build a story around them, they actually came out pretty good. Usually, the story changed a few of the stats, and what I wound up with wasn't as twink as it started. (Usually. ) The key is flexibility, letting the story go where it needs to to be a good story.

The helpful thing is that the traditions / spirits / stats / mentor bonuses and drawbacks are all fairly balanced. All three drain attributes are useful in Shadowrun to a similar degree (although this can vary quite a bit with playstyle of course.) All the spirits are good in their own right, and it's hard to really twink out on them (aside from having ready access to every skill without having to steal a manikin or borrow a ganger, apparently.) The wealth of mentor spirits provide a good example of pros and cons, and if you stick close to the book ones you are usually okay.

Unless you do something pretty extreme, you're probably not going to be worse off than the traditions already in the book.

Edit:
I'd also like to say that I've had several times where things have gone the other way -- where I started out with a fairly innocuous story, and it suggested some pretty twinkish things. Maybe I'm just too random in my thought processes. Walrus.

Personally I encourage custom Traditions because I view Magic as being fairly personal and private, even among Hermatics. However I very, very seldom allow a custom Mentor Spirit simply because I don't see the same need for one.

i basically allow both if they have a nice background but i also triple check em as i do with all awakened stuff because they're very often minmaxed and personally i don't want such chars in my campaigns. Custom traditions also have problems with initiation most of the time as it is way harder to find fellow sorcerers if you're magician follows some rare old african pagan religion of which he's probably the only member on the continent.

Intuition is probably the worst drain attribute from a powergamer viewpoint.
Until now, no metatype grants an intuition bonus and besides genetic optimization, there's no way to push it with ware.
Sure, the synergy effects are nice, but the same applies to charisma.
BTW, dodge is linked to reaction, not intuition.
And combat spells aren't nearly as useful as manipulaton, since they just let you do what any decent streetsam allready does without drain, while manipulation spells provide abilities no other character has.
Guardian spirits rock, though.



I agree that optimization should always involve having cool fluff ideas and generally dislike to play with people who are unable to be creative both towards mechanics and background.

But if game mechanics, or the wish to have access to certain mechanics, provide inspiration for a cool concept, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.



No, you don't.
Well, i don't.
If you had other experiences, too bad.
Wouldn't happen around me.



Full ack on that.
Any new rules introduced should work parallel to existing ones.
Doing anything else demands being slapped on the head with the BBB.

As far as building traditions is concerned, that's easy (being consistent with existing rules, not the headslap thing), since there's clear and simple guidelines for that.

Mentor spirits are a bit more difficult, as there's a number of approaches towards the disadvantages, from "-1 to something" over "minmum CHA4 + some other stuff" to "WIL + CHA (3) to not do something emberassing" and the only thing the advantages all have in common is giving 2 +2 boni to something, from skill tests to damage resistance to specific spell or spirit categories.
Extrapolating from that is a bit more tricky than just selecting a drain attribute, selecting 5 kinds of spirits and deciding wether a tradition is posession- or materialization-based, since it involves more understanding of implicit rules and mechanic design intents behind existing mentors.