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Abbandon
-Does augment introduce cyberarms with more than 15 capacity?
-Is there any new ways to go beyond 7 with an attribute??
-They say every cyber limbs starts with 3's. The upgrades go from 1-7. So does that mean an attribute maxes out at 7 or 10??
Kinda sucks that if you want to raise the attributes in a limb at all you gotta get a torso to...

I want to make a character with one cyberarm most likely who is really awesome with a sword. I wanted the cyberarm to have like a state of the art activesoft in it like the character knows nothing about how to use a sword but the arm does. The other background i was thinking about involves the characters being into swords for some reason and being frustrated with not being able to make their arm do what they want in order to get the most out of the sword so they cut their own arm off so the can replace it with cyber. Maybe they fight somebody and lose or maybe they were suppose to protect somebody and fail and they get their sword arm taken as punishment so they can never wield one again...

I was also thinking this character would be better suited to be female.
Kyrn
Long answer:
Bulk modification adds up to 4 capacity.
You can now customize a limb to set its base attribute score up to racial max.
Yes, this means a troll with fully customized limbs and torso can a strength of 17 or more.
And agility 12.
You can further optimize a fully cyberarm with the EvoKali option to add a +1 dice pool modifier to your blades skill.
Oh, and you could install a skillwire system and the cyberarm in an interconnected cybersuite.

Short answer:
Yes.
Teulisch
you can get good cyberlimbs now. but your not going to start with them- aside from cost, the availability skyrockets upward in a hurry.

under the availability 12 cap, you can only get+8 attributes to an arm/leg for 23,000 nuyen.gif which for an obvious arm, is going to cap you at something like body 9, strength 8, agility 9 and 25,100 nuyen.gif for standard grade, using 9 capacity and assuming no cybertorso. 10BP for an alpha-grade limb isnt too bad, plus theres still room for rating-2 armor in each limb. so without a cybertorso, your 40+BP of cyber and 3.2 essence could get you some rather decent stats, +8/+8 armor, and +4 physical condition boxes. a human with 4/4/5 stats should average at 8/8/8 with 4 of these limbs (assuming we divide by 5), which is pretty good for a starting character. but then hes not going to have a heck of a lot else, and dosent have the essence left for wired 2.

edit: and come to think of it... a human could have a 9/9/9 arm at chargen, if he got second-hand ware, which allows for that last point of availability.
Ryu
Beware Availability!

Cyberarm, Full.
+Evo Kali Optimisation: +1 DV to blades damage, 2 capacity.
+Bulk Modification: +4 capacity
+Customisation: Costs only money, kills availability, you decide on the level of the arms physical attributes sans reaction

Skillwires have no capacity rating - no way to build them into the arm. Depending on your general level of agility, you could get much the same effect as from weapon skill out of high agility in the arm. "Downside" is that the arm would also know how to use Firearms pretty well. But I assume from your question on increasing attributes that this option will not work. Pull it off by building a cybersuite of arm+skillwires, seconded!

Genetic optimisation increases attribute limits. I assume you are talking about that? Or did you talk about soft-cap chargen limits?
Abbandon
No the attribute limit to cyber limbs. I thought you have to take a cyber torso if you raise any stat above 3? Which is like any time you improve anything ?
samuelbeckett
Nah, not having the torso prevents adding enhancements with a rating higher than 3 (so you can only exceed 6 in a stat if you have a cybertorso).
Kyrn
Ryu: the EvoKali adds dice, not DV.
As for cyberlimb attributes, you can pay through the nose and customize the limb (these attribute raises are separate and don't require a cybertorso) and change the limb's base stats (ie. cyberarm w/B5,A6, S8 for an ork) and then you can add the cyberlimb modifications for further attribute increases (up to three without a cybertorso, so the ork from the previous example could have a S8 arm with a +3 strength modification for S11).
Cybertorsos are for poor people.
Nostalgic Jester
QUOTE (Abbandon @ Feb 22 2008, 02:48 AM) *
-Does augment introduce cyberarms with more than 15 capacity?
-Is there any new ways to go beyond 7 with an attribute??
-They say every cyber limbs starts with 3's. The upgrades go from 1-7. So does that mean an attribute maxes out at 7 or 10?


-No (tough you can increase their capacity up to 19 through bulk modification).
-Plenty of old and new ways to do that biggrin.gif .
-True. True. It maxes out at the relevant augmented maximum (9 for most attributes for most humans).

Please excuse me for being so conscise but time is lacking at the moment. If you are still confused I will be happy to write a more thoroughly explanation.
Abbandon
Ok I already done made my one armed character (Lily) but Im now uncertain about something.

If the character is human with a augmented maximum of 9 can the cyber arm go beyond that?? Why in the hell would it be limited by your race? It should only be limited by mechanics and how much crap i stuff into it?

A cyberarm starts out with strength 3, agility 3, body 3. It can boost agility/strength 7. If Im using a human though I have to stop at the 6th enhancement?

I was going to be getting a custom cyber arm that starts out with a base of strength 9, agility 5, body 3 and then buy R4 enhancements to strength and agility to make my final arm: Strength 13, Agility 9, Body 3 and still have 7 capacity to fill later on..... is that impossable to do on a human ?? I dont see why it should matter...
Ryu
QUOTE (Kyrn @ Feb 22 2008, 06:54 PM) *
Ryu: the EvoKali adds dice, not DV.


Not only that, but customisation is limited to the natural max, not the augmented max. So no +4 for humans. Should not have posted from memory apparently.
knasser
QUOTE (Abbandon @ Feb 24 2008, 09:05 AM) *
A cyberarm starts out with strength 3, agility 3, body 3. It can boost agility/strength 7. If Im using a human though I have to stop at the 6th enhancement?

...

I was going to be getting a custom cyber arm that starts out with a base of strength 9, agility 5, body 3 and then buy R4 enhancements to strength and agility to make my final arm: Strength 13, Agility 9, Body 3 and still have 7 capacity to fill later on..... is that impossable to do on a human ?? I dont see why it should matter...


In my game (and I consider this RAW, though there is room to disagree), you can get your attribute 10 with cyberlimbs by purchasing the attribute increases as mods, not through customisation. Cost effective - no. Possible - yes.

Also, note the rules for red-lining cyberlimbs in Augmentation which let you disable the safety limits on cyber-limbs , aka. Exploding PC syndrome. smile.gif

-K.
Abbandon
Ok so the best legal custom arm I can have is.....
obvious cyber arm [15 cap] ess=1.0 cost=15,000 avail=4
custom: stength 6, agility 6, body 5: +8 availability cost= 12,000
(alpha) ess=.8 cost= 54k

Enhancements:
Strength 4 [4] 1000 rating x 3R = 12R
Agility 4 [4] 1000 rating x 3 = 12

Final Arm Strength 10, Agility 10, Body 5 ahh I think I understand now...

If I stop at 9 I would not need a torso with a custom arm just because I do not go past R3 enhancements. If I did it would be totally legit but then it would require a torso. Hmmm so eventually one day the best arm i could get would be..(without bulk customization, does not fit character)...

Well I guess you are limited by the enhancements that only go up to 7 so ...
Strength 13, Agility 13, Body 5 with 1 cap left... Although I would probably not get that much agility and try to pump body some more...and that would include a mandatory torso install.

Well I think for character chreation and the purpose of starting out I will cap myself at 9's. Then i can ditch the torso and get skillwires on my Lily character.
Nostalgic Jester
QUOTE (knasser @ Feb 24 2008, 08:44 AM) *
In my game (and I consider this RAW, though there is room to disagree), you can get your attribute 10 with cyberlimbs by purchasing the attribute increases as mods, not through customisation. Cost effective - no. Possible - yes.


If theres any room to disagree... Ill do it! I just cant help it, it seems to be on my nature. nyahnyah.gif

As far as I know the hardcaps on SR4 are quite... well, hard. There are very few instances in which they can be overcome (at this time I only remember redlining cyberlimbs, though lazyness is also deeply rooted in me so you can be pretty sure that others may exist as well) and the exceptionality of said instances is allways heavily stressed. Furthermore, Im pretty sure (and lazy enough as not checking it up biggrin.gif ) that the section dealing with cyberlimbs on Augmentation is quite clear on what you can and cant do with them (I said clear, not "logic" wink.gif ) and overcoming augmented maximums is ruled out (unless you are redlining them, which by the way... is an optional rule!).

But hey, I am pulling this straight out of my arse (no, the book would be Arse wobble.gif ) so I may be wrong... but having a great time disagreeing! grinbig.gif
Teulisch
from my reading of augmentation, it looks like customizing a limb caps at normal attribute max, and enhancements that take capacity cap at the augmented max. which implies a hard cap of 9 for a human (10 with genetic tweaking). go read the paragraph in the top right of the page where customizing a limb is.

redlining, you get limb statx2, then take that much stun, so a stat 9 arm redlines to 18, then takes 18 stun. also known as 'suicide'

Synner
QUOTE (Teulisch @ Feb 25 2008, 06:17 AM) *
redlining, you get limb statx2, then take that much stun, so a stat 9 arm redlines to 18, then takes 18 stun. also known as 'suicide'

Actually, redlining allows you to boost your Att 9 cyberarm to any rating up to 18, so you could just redline it to 10 or 13.
knasser
QUOTE (Nostalgic Jester @ Feb 25 2008, 05:00 AM) *
If there�s any room to disagree... I�ll do it! I just can�t help it, it seems to be on my nature. nyahnyah.gif

As far as I know the hardcaps on SR4 are quite... well, hard. There are very few instances in which they can be overcome (at this time I only remember redlining cyberlimbs, though lazyness is also deeply rooted in me so you can be pretty sure that others may exist as well) and the exceptionality of said instances is allways heavily stressed. Furthermore, I�m pretty sure (and lazy enough as not checking it up biggrin.gif ) that the section dealing with cyberlimbs on Augmentation is quite clear on what you can and can�t do with them (I said clear, not "logic" wink.gif ) and overcoming augmented maximums is ruled out (unless you are redlining them, which by the way... is an optional rule!).

But hey, I am pulling this straight out of my arse (no, the book would be Arse wobble.gif ) so I may be wrong... but having a great time disagreeing! grinbig.gif


It looks like I'm wrong, by the RAW. It's not explicit, but the implication is that the augmented maximum applies. It's been a while since I read those rules and I think my belief that 10 was possible came from the fact that attribute 10 rating cyberlimbs are available. I didn't consider that the intention was that these should only be useful to metahumans. It seemed nonsensical for something to be available that could not be used by anyone. And as the BBB rules for cyberlimbs had glaring omissions as far as metahumans go, it still seems a not entirely unreasonable assumption to make. The fact that cyberlimbs are actually entire replacements rather than simple "augmentations" to what's there, makes it seem not unreasonable to have an exception to the augmented caps for them.

So by RAW, looks like it's normal caps, but I shall probably allow 10's for humans, etc.
Kyrn
Read the rules on cyberlimbs in the BBB again. The attributes of a cyberlimb may exceed a character's augmented racial maximum because the attributes are not the character's, the attributes are the cyberlimb's. This is explicit in the language of the rules. It is further supported by the ability to achieve 10 in Body, Strength and Agility with cyberlimbs. I believe this was further clarified in the lengthy discussions had with the developers/writers of Augmentation on these forums shortly after it release. Cyberlimb attributes may exceed a character's racial maximum. Now how you go about using that limb's attributes, through several different kinds of averaging, or assuming it applies in full for some uses, is still a table by table decision for the most part.
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