From a FAQ about Shadowrun, a quote I found while googling for the topic...

I don't think SR has full-blown cyberpsychosis (at least in the way that CP2020 seemed to), but I disagree with the statement that "Cyberware doesn't have an impact on your character's personality." For one thing, I could have sworn that there's a section in the main book that states that people with very low essence become increasingly detached from the rest of humanity. Even if this isn't in canon, there's no way that something like an encephelon or even a normal simsense rig leaves your personality unchanged. The transition from having tools outside of you to having tools that are a part of you, even aside from the issue of cyberware that interfaces directly with the brain on a large scale, is huge.

Defined as random, violent behavior due to excessive cyberware, cyberpsychosis in SR seems to only take place in animals implanted with cyber. However, at least in my game, a character that's heavily cybered is much less capable of empathy than an uncybered one, and hence much more likely to resort to violence or other methods of forceful persuasion to get what they want.

EDIT: Added closing quotation mark.

What they're basically doing is moving away from Talsorian's Cyberpunk 2020.

Few of the "classic" cyberpunk writers had characters so heavily endowed with cyberware of any type, but there usually was a certain alien element to each of them.

This sort of thing was actually really picked up in anime-Bubblegum Police, I think had a few episodes, like the lady with the cyber-womb/vagina and the phantom period...

I always have to think of a comment Wolf made about Kid Stealth in It's all done with mirrors

My take on it is that's what the rules say.

But on a slightly more serious note, they kinda have something like that. Aside from the social penalties for having obvious and unusual cyber, if you have less than three essence IIRC, you get more penalties for interacting with people 'cause you creep them out.

What would be the benefit of ripping off the cyberpsychosis rules, from CP2020 I believe it is, having never played the game myself? From past experience and from what I've heard it generally just lead to all the cyber twinks playing chromed to the max samurai shooting anything that moves and then whining about how they're supposed to be all psychotic.

Although I suppose if you have players that can actually roleplay the situation and the whole taking away part of their humanity piece by piece then it could be interesting. Although then we're getting into Vampire territory.

Edit: Damn. Really shouldn't write a reply and then leave it for twenty minutes to change the laundery before hitting submit.

Person 404...

What you are looking for is on page 52 (second column, third paragraph) of Man & Machine: Cyberware.

"Fourth, cymermantic subjects suffer severe mental detachment, apathy and general malaise, known as chronic disassociation syndrome."

I generally try to impress on characters with more than 2 points of cyberware that their characters are less human. What does less human mean? If a cybered character started out as a pratical joker they would slowly stop as they increased the amount of cyberware they are packing. Humor, love, hate, happiness, and so forth are emotional content that IMO a cyborg would not employ. Cyborgs should be precise, calculating, and in general a machine that is capable of independent thought and action. This is why regardless of how well concealed a character's cyberware may be...IN MY GAMES...characters with five points or more of cyberware are easy to spot simply by interaction with them.

And just in case you missed it...this is simply how I run it in my games which is in NO way meant to be taken as the only way to handle it.

John A. Schmidt

I thought Kid Stealth would have a sick sense of humor,w ith or without the cyber.

I did like the bit about cybereyes and Hatchetman in Cybertechnology, though.

As they so nicely said in 1st Edition Core Rules

Well, as they keep saying: it takes a certain something to get two perfectly good arms chopped off and replaced with metal.

Mmmmhhh, yeah..that was Argent, wasn't she?

"He" and he's not the only one.

I think the whole point about Kid Stealth, as Ancient History said, is that he was like that anyway. It wasn't the cyberware that caused him to tell bad jokes or blow up spirit-ships, it was his personality that caused him to choose inhuman looking cyberlegs etc (and probably why he needed cyberlegs in the first place).

On the wider topic, I've always found the idea of cyberpsychosis and similar trends a bit silly. There's no real reason to think anything of the kind would happen. A fully chromed guy is likely to be more or less the same as any other. Of course, it would depend on the person's psyche and whatever caused them to require the cyberware, but by-and-large no change. Artifical limbs, peg legs, hooks and pacemakers are not noted for their psychosis-inducing properties, afterall, and cyberware is just a progression of the same principle. Cyberware is likely to be less traumatic, in fact, as it looks and acts like the original. Having talked to someone who actually had a machine attached to his central nervous system, all he noted was that he felt much closer to his computer - he felt it was part of him rather than a tool - no need to spray high-velocity lead around and certainly no loss of sense of humour.

If you want to make a dramatic point with humanity loss, well...there's nothing I can do to stop you as all my death squads are busy right now. However, if you're going to say it's realistic or should happen in some way can you explain your reasoning.

Kid Stealth blew his own legs off rather than sink in the concrete shoes he was wearing. This says omething about an inidividual.

But hey, anything can make people a little crazy. Who hasn't felt just a tad detached because they have to stare at the world through glasses?

I think it is very hard to say what the human brain would act like if put in a situation where most of the body it commands is cyberware and expands the senses beyond what the human brain handles normally.
Basically in my opinion it's a matter of willpower, some people might handle the transition ok, some might be overwhelmed by the whole experience (trauma from the surgery, new abilities and social interaction). These traumas might be too much for some people and they might flip out, become depressed or even lash out with violence. So I don't think that someone becoming violent after some major cyberware surgery is too far fetched, neither is a change in a person's emotions.

Realistic...

That is a word that I generally don't apply to the following...

a) games
b) discussions about magic, elves, dragons, and so forth


Personal preference...

Now that seems to me more applicable.
As for my reasoning, in regards to the point in my previous post...personal preference. I don't want characters to load up on cyberware without some sort of roleplaying hook being applied. Does that mean its right? For me...Yes.


Kid Stealth...

I like Mike Stackpole he is incredibly cool/talented and I have enjoyed talking with him in the past. My personal preference regarding Kid Stealth is that I disavow his cyberware details in Wolf & Raven. Wolf & Raven really is a fun read...I laughed a great deal!


John A. Schmidt

My personal feeling is that by 2050 the medical and technological difficulties of cyberware implantation will at least be under control, if not mastered. The predominant side effects will be psychological.

Getting cyber gives you abilities no metahuman could ever have otherwise. It gives you new ways to sense and react, which gives you new ways to think.

I don't see how you could help but gradually see yourself different from others, as they see you different from them. Regardless of how people see you, you see yourself, you might see yourself as a monster, risking depression. You might also begin to see yourself superior to the man-on-the-street, risking sociopathy.

In any event, radical augmentation makes you into your own metatype, in a world that loves to hate metatypes different from themselves. If an Ork is feared and hated for having 20% more body mass and tusks, what would they think of 50kg or metal and electronics stapled to your body? You are an alien in a inhospitable world.

Using this model, the "cost" of cyberware should be relative to it's appearance.

For example, a natural looking cyber leg should affect you less than a boosted obvious one, which in turn would be less than a non-human leg like a "Kid Stealth" leg. A prosthetic so natural you forget it isn't real should have no emotional cost at all.

In short, the scarier or more alien you look, act or feel, the more it effects your emotional state.

Thus endeth the sermon. Amen.

There is a bunch of old flavor text that states people with low essence go crazy - the adventure elven fire had one such individual, and if i remember correctly it was strongly implied in several places that an essence of 0 made people borderline crazed maniacs, devoid of emotion (not quite that bad, but still

In fact, for years my players believed that something terrible might happen to their characters if they had an essence too close to 0, and no one ever dreamed of having a character who actually had essence 0. And this was not because of a house rule, or something I specifically told them (though I didn't discourage their beliefs)

I believe it was even suggested somewhere that some people would slowly whittle away and die from having a low essence (still above 0, that is)


Personally, I think it would affect you to replace significant parts of your body with mechanics, computers and metal. 'Passive' and 'invisible' cyberware - like bonelacing, blood filters, to some degree dermal plating - would not have that much effect, but once you start adding pieces you interact with, or where you plug things into yourself (datajacks, chipjacks) - those things I believe would leave an effect on your psyche. <-- hint

As essense approaches 0, reality changes (as far as the is concerned). The individual knows that he has less and less in common with the average person on the street.

When essense reaches 0, death occurs except in cases where life is sustained or forced by magical causes.

I prefer a metaphysical/moralistic take on the impact of cyberware. cyberpsychosis would seem to me to go the wrong way... instead, I like the cyberzombie effect of being increasingly 'disconnected' from the world, in a social sense. All in all, I subscribe to the idea that cyberware is a trade-off; you can't have the inhuman advantages it gives without some loss of humanity.

In my mind, characters with essence below two would lose a degree of empathy with others... they'd be more introverted than they had been before (obviously this would vary depending on how the person acted when they were 'whole'), and perhaps less tolerant or more dismissive of other people. In those with essence of less than one (and very much so below 0.5) these effects would be pronounced. Their desire to get out and see other people would be minimal, their tolerance of others' company would be slim, and their sexual drive and need for human contact would be vastly diminished. (Actually, I always thought this would be a perfect ill-effect to hit those cybered munchkins with... "Okay, your cyber-samurai is one bad-ass mofo... but he has no interest in sex and couldn't get it up even if he forced himself to get into bed with a joygirl.")

Cyberzombies, of course, would represent the extreme of this behaviour, and those with essence over two would be minimally affected by the 'disconnectedness,' or not at all.

Just my take on it.

All in all, I'd say this issue is one for the group/GM. Whatever they say goes. And here's a couple of examples:

1) One of my own characters (and name-sake) had .005 essence left at the end of his career (that's what TacCom's and VCR 3's will do to you, even at delta). He was more "human" at the end of his career then he was at the beginning. He started as a basic rigger, who had no morals... no "humanity." He would kill anyone if payed enough.

He then slowly added cyber, piece by piece. After the encephalon and a prototype Cerebral booster (and then the Mnemonic enhancers), he had a lot more brainpower to ponder things with. He considered who and what he was, and didn't like what he found. He thought himself lacking in a spark he saw in those around him, and struggled to kindle it within himself.

Eventually, he became a widely known philantropist and patron of the arts/underpriviledged. He "became human."


2) A different GM decided that he wanted a "darker" SR, so he devised some cyber-psychosis rules. Basically a character had "humanity points" to start with, and cyberware could reduce those points. A reduction in points could result in dissassociative psychotic episodes (ie fugue states) at times of stress and/or rest.

As players, we had several instances (before we worked out the nuances of the system) where the cyber users of the group would wake up soaked in blood or other such situations (the best was in prison on 4 counts of murder, and an additional 2 for killing the arresting officers) after a fugue kicked in during downtime.

What this system ended up doing was creating sammies with high willpower... and that's about it. As players, we didn't much like it, as it took control of our own characters somewhat out of our hands.


Just my thoughts on the matter.

Grim Shear
"I wouldn't much mind cutting you up. Really, I wouldn't."

I've wondered about making a "essence Stress" system in which the stress is relieved though various side effects (from minor quirks to full blown detrachment from the world). I would use essence as the primary stats for tests and the like (Willpower might work but A.) Willpower is powerful enough already and B.) Just because you're willful doesn't mean you can't crack especially to something so metaphysical). If anyone is interested, I'll write it up sometime.

Perhaps not an essence attribute, but a social atttribute. One that describes how much you care about your fellow man.

This could be the downfall of the "I have no family or friends, I just kill people" 'runner background. A character like that is already so disassociated from people in general that it only takes a little more for total sociopathy and contempt for his fellow man.

Someone with people close to him will be more anchored in society, despite what his wired reflexes might tell him to the contrary.

This is an attribute that the player & GM would have to agree on, based on the background of the character.

Perhaps...

The Social score runs from 6 (thoroughly grounded in society) to 1 (I don't care enough about people to even hate them. They are insects.)

We might use this like a skill with the target based on the situation and a cyber value derived from how strongly, and how often the cyber "gets in the way"

For example, the cyber value (CV) of wired reflexes with a reflex trigger would have a lower CV than one without, because you are only out or synch with the world the few seconds you need to be. My cyber limb example in a previous post is the same situation.

If you fail your check, perhaps you lose .1 Social. Perhaps if your social score gets below something like 4, each point below is a penalty on all social tests.

Something to think about...

Aye, I find essance a slightly, well, strange concept. I was trying to explain it to a new player once, and she was being a wiseass about it. Conversation as follows (roughly)
Me: This is your essance. Its a mesure of how much stuff you have in your body. It will go down when/if you get cyberware. *skip a bit brother...* Ok, cyberware.
Her: Hey, why does a VCR cost so much essance compaired to something like a leg? A VCR is just a little hunk of metal, and this is a 2 foot long major limb. What gives? And what about stuff like pacemakers?
Me: *explains roughtly what a VCR is* Its just got more connections, its trying to replace your brain stem after all.
Her: Ok, but then why does a datajack cost so little, thats connected to your brain too. What about this encphlon thingie, that looks like its REALLY connected. I could get one of those, and new legs to boot! But its still a lot less then that VCR.
Me: *dumbfounded* Umm... well its a mesure of how you think. *gives example of a drone rigger whos checking his mail, balancing his check book, ironing his socks, and doing a brake job on his van, all at once, and is still bored.*
Her: Oh, but the poor person who gets hit by a bus and needs new legs will think differently because of them?
Me: Ok, its a damm game balance thing... sheesh.

Its a reallt sticky issue. I kinda wish they had thought of a slightly different way of doing it from the getgo. *shrugs*

I don't like cyberpsychosis, personally. I think cyberware can have all kinds of effects on a person, and that it will depend on both the cyberware and the personality of the person. Someone born and bred in an Ares enclave might have an Essense of less than 1, but still be able to sling beers with the guys, have a girlfriend, and otherwise function normally. A Salish soldier who had to get a hand replaced might have nightmares about the hand detatching itself and strangling him, and be unable to even aproach a girl because his monstrous metal hand makes him feel like a freak.

I think how a character reacts to his/her cyberware should be in the character background, just as any awakened character should put down how that character feels about having magical abilities. However, it should be something the character roleplays, not a set of arbitrary rules. I have run into rules like that, such as Horror Checks in the Ravenloft setting, and to me, they detract from roleplaying. There is too much variation - he could feel superior to the rest of humanity, she could resent these horrible implants that she had to take to keep up with the other runners, he could be a former amputee who is high on life now that he can walk again, she could be a killing machine from the Barrens who doesn't notice any difference because she is already an emotionally crippled psychotic. I prefer the SR Essense rules, because player reactions to their cyberware should be a roleplaying question.

Christus, people here are talking like they know for a fact what would happen when somebody would go in for extensive invasive cybernetic and neurological surgery.

From a purely psychological point of view, people going in for cybernetic surgery to the extent that's being discussed here, in this thread, will most likely come out with either a strong superiority complex, or an inferiority complex, depending on their view on cyberware.

No matter how you twist and turn the events, getting cyberware installed for any reason, leaves a person altered. Altered people, or people who are different stand out, which goes against the pretend-to-value-individuals-but-be-more-comfortable-among-a-crowd mentality of human beings.

If this, coupled with neurological damages done due to surgery, causes a full blown psychosis is up to the GM to decide. Personally, I like the idea of cyberpsychosis, and I try to implement it in my games, too. I don't do it through rules and regulations, but merely by creating awareness in my players.

Anyone thinking that the hand transplant did not affect the patient is deluding himself.

Also, there's a different between a transplant with a prosthesis, and an actual full-fledged, operating hand, with Direct Neural Interfacing.

For some info on that "hand transplant"...go here

Hand transplant cut off again

Well, that is a lot of opinions on the subject. Most come down to "that's just the way I like it" or metaphysics so I can't really argue (and the death squads are still busy). However, I still don't believe it's likely and can't really see much reason for it. The psychology of the individual pre-implantation and their attitudes to cyberware would be the main problems (as explained more eloquently by others above) but still not enough for a blanket disassociation from reality. IMHO, of course.

I still haven't found any examples of cyberpsychosis or similar problems in any Shadowrun product (except regarding cyberzombies which is a different matter). I haven't got all the adventures so I can't read Elven Fire, unfortunately.

On a few other points:

I dislike the idea of manditory cyberpsychosis because it dictates how a player should play his character.

In my opinion, saying that all low-Essence characters will have cyberpsychosis is like saying all roleplayers will eventually end up like Tom Hanks in Mazes and Monsters. Some might, but some definitely will not. It all depends on the individual in question.

It might be interesting to assemble a collection of IC/OOC accounts of cyberwear implantation/usage/effects for use as a guide for players and GMs. It could either live on an AH website or in another forum. I would be happy to contribute at least two very different accounts of how chrome changes the life of the implantee (I tend to play fairly well cybered characters).

Any interest?

This just seems like the rational thing to do as psychological issues tend to be treated as roleplaying matters, rather than rules, in SR.

Cyber-Psychosis is a roleplayed thing. It can't be a set rule thing because insanity is a highly personal and individual thing.

One guy might have his entire world view redefined by getting a VCR 1. Maybe he likes being a car more then a person. He enjoys the feeling of the open road flying by beneath his wheels, etc etc.

On the other hand, another character shrugs off when she gets Muscle Replacement and Dermal Plating installed. She just views herself stronger and tougher, no big deal. So what if her skin now shrugs off small calibre rounds and she can rip a door of a car, it's nothing to write home about.

It all depends on the character. Now mind you, I generally view that cyber-ware can change your character, if nothing else in little ways. Maybe the character with headmem uses it to record down everything so he doesn't have to use his meat brain to remember it. Or maybe the character with VCR now treats his all items carefully since he knows what it's like to be an 'item'. Cyberware at minimum changes you, but no more then any other thing (ie, learning new abilities/skills, training to improve attributes, etc etc etc)

Thing is, I wasn't really asking for set rules for a cyberpsychosis. What irked me is that, in that FAQ, and conversely in the whole new gamesystem, cyberware implantation is shrugged off as mainly a social "stigma", while it was cause for strange disorders of the mind in most of the game setting and flavour I know.

Of course, it is a matter of roleplaying it, that's nothing I would ever deny. Going the same route Ravenloft took with it's horror/terror checks would railroad a character beyond anybody's liking. The thing is that something should be roleplayed. I'm not asking for mass-murdering maniacs...but that example with muscle replacement is a nice one. How would you feel if all of a sudden, shaking your buddy's hand results in broken bones because you're not fine-tuned enough to your 50% more strength? Do you get more cautious? Do you feel more superior all of a sudden? Do you start laughing in a ganger's face when he threatens you with his pellet gun, because you have metal plates implanted under your skin now? Just some roleplaying...and some good, solid hints at what could happen with your psyche when you are more machine than human, except that you won't get into Dante's anymore because you look more like you belong in the new Terminator movie

That's all a matter of individual roleplay, and not rules. It's up to the player, with the GM's active encouragement. I wouldn't make any rules saying cyberpsychosis had to be a certain way; I'd just let the players make it up on their own. More fun that way, IMO.

I believe personally that the cyberware you get should affect how your character behaves. Someone with a dual datajack, four slot chipjack, 500MP of headware memory, a CPU, Math SPU, etc. etc. would become more analytical and less emotional in his thinking. Most of his cognative tasks are routed through a computer. Besides, what is decision making if not calculating the odds of one outcome over another? With that sort of cyber, he would be using it a lot to mathematically decide the odds of what decision he's making. "Out of the last 106 times I ate at Tace Bell and got the Grilled Stuffed Burrito, 26 times I didn't like it, 14 times I had no opinion, and 66 times I liked it, therefore I will order it again."

Cybereyes are a big one for me though. Cameras, by their nature, bring a flatness to an image and digital cameras are limited by their pixils -- no matter how good it is, it's still only a bunch of dots being some combination of Red, Green, and Blue. Subconsciously, you'd notice this. You're not looking at someone while you're talking to them, you're looking at a TV with them on it. It's like life is a video game. This leads to a feeling of detachment. As (I believe) Ancient History said, read Hatchetman's story in Cybertechnology.

Basically, the more hardware you get crammed into your body, the less of your natural body is there. I don't care if you got your cyberarm when you wer 16. You had your natural one for sixteen years and your body as well as your brain grew accustomed to it. You're no longer receiving nerve impulses, you're receiving computer commands. Your biochemestry has been thrown off, your nervous system disrupted. This will definately lead to some mental imbalance. That's not your hand pulling the trigger, that's just a machine. Besides, you're not the one doing it, you're just watching a camera.

Don't forget other issues as well. If you have a lot of combat-oriented cyber, odds are you paid for it in blood -- most likely someone else's. No one gets a move-by-wire system so they can catch the train to the MCT building on time. They get it so they can move faster (and therefore shoot faster) than someone else. This indicates a prolonged experience in dealing out pain, misery, and death. This has very severe consequences speaking psychologically.

The Abstruse One

This is just giving out the name for the anime Anchient History was talking about WAAAAAAAY up top. The anime was 'AD Police' which was a prequel to 'Bubblegum Crisis'. Both are very good examples of the 'Cyber psychosis' discused here. In fact, it's to the point that by the time BGC happens, cyber mods have fallen by the wayside due to several very publicised incidents of it...

Now back to the previously schedualled thread.

I guess it really depends on how thoughtful your character is. However, I tend to play it that characters think more about their body once they start augmenting it. That's just the way I perceive to be natural. I know I would be totally wasted when I have too many implants. Hell, I even feel detached because of my contacts sometimes! (doesn't happen often, though)
I would imagine that a datajack wouldn't do much to me but cybereyes would be a major factor. Any replacement of bodyparts would be a major issue for me. Add-ons wouldn't be that big of a problem, though I would always find them disturbing. And what would disturb me even more is if somethings wired between my brain and the rest of the body. I couldn't stand the thought of a computer controlling my body, even if it was me controlling the computer. Of course, severity varies greatly, depending on how big of an impact the implant has on my daily life. If I just had some nervous tissue replaced I guess it wouldn't be too much of a problem. However, if I knew that my thaughts where routed through a computer in my brain, I would go totally nuts! Freedom of thaughts is one of the absolute essentials to my life. If I had a mathematics processor sitting there filtering out any calculation I do I wouldn't consider my thoughts my own any more.
However, I think this is a matter of getting used to it. If I lived with it for a few months I would probably still feel strange about it but I would accept it.

(Now that was probably the most useless post in my internet-career )

And then again I agree whole-heartetly with everyone on the fact that you can't put this into rules. It has to be roleplayed. But I would think it to be quite a challenge for most players. Especially newbies, who still view this like a board game ("roll-players")