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Fortune
So, I have recently been thinking about the gangs of Shadowrun, and their many and various pastimes. One of the more interesting, at least at meat the moment, is jousting, I got to wondering how people would handle this in a game situation.

For a start, I would think that 'Lance' would be an Exotic Weapon skill.

For weapons, almost anything could be used, from road signs, staves (telescopic or not), spears, and the like. But what sort of DV would be applicable? Should the (combined) speed of the bike(s) be factored into the equation? Would more damage be done by bigger 'lances', like for example troll-modified staves (even wielded by non-trolls)?.

How would you run this type of thing in your games?
samuelbeckett
I'd probably handle it using the ramming rules from the BBB, but with only the passenger resisting the damage, and the DV being based on the combined speeds of the bikes and the Body of the jouster (I figure a bigger person has more stability and weight behind the lance, and the lance itself is a smaller contributor to the damage than the speed and weight).

So no need for Exotic Weapon skill, just opposed Reaction + Vehicle Skill +/- Handling.
DTFarstar
Name - Reach - Damage - AP Value - Avail. - Cost
Lance - 3 - Square Root of Speed(KPH) + STR/2 + 1 - -1 - 8 - 95 nuyen.gif
Troll Lance - 4 - Sq. Rt. of Speed(KPH) + STR/2 + 1 - -1 - 10 - 115 nuyen.gif


These weapons are based off of a composite metal, filed to a sharp point. For improvised lances, modify reach based on weapon length(these stats assume that the lances are made at about the length of your average staff + about half a meter and designed to be held at one end), modify the damage code as appropriate for the material(Anything non-metal go to +0, anything soft go to -1), and modify the AP based upon the shape of the tip(sharpened well at -1, kind of sharpened at 0, filed to a basic aerodynamic shape +1, blunt +2).

Also, the weapon resists damage as a barrier equal to half the damage it inflicts on a target, and the rider has to make a crash test upon impact threshhold equal to one fourth the damage value inflicted upon his target + one fourth the damage value inflicted upon him minus the net hits on his attack. Stabilization functions on the vehicle in question reduce the threshold by 1.

That is probably how I would run it. Too detailed?

Chris
Whitelaughter
That'd work nicely if the 'lance' is built into the vehicle, but if you're actually couching a lance - and travelling at several times the speed of galloping horse - the sway of the tip is going to take practice to cope with.

So I'd make the skill the lower of Exotic Weapon(Lance) or Pilot(whatever).

DV should be fairly obscene, given how much force is focused into the tip. Used on foot, a Lance would only be about (STR/2+2)P or so, but mounted? Maybe replace STR with the vehicle's acceleration(but that's brutal) or the mount's STR. Better yet:

You can coax extra speed out of a vehicle with a successful Vehicle Test. So compulsory vehicle test, with successes added to the STR of the driver [if couched, for ((STR+successes)/2+2)P] or to the Body of the vehicle [if bolted on, for ((BOD+successes)/2+2)P] ). ie add half your successes on the vehicle test to the DV of the lance.

Then pilot skill only effects the attack roll if you glitch.

A variant for gangers would be using the lance as a lockpick - riding at a door, spinning the bike to stop after the lance connects with the door. Possibly kill a few gangers developing the manoeuvre, but a cheap way to get into street level doors once mastered.
nezumi
I'd tend to use the polearms skill. In general it's just a long spear, and that's precisely what the polearms skill is meant to cover. If the lance is mounted, it would be driving instead (as an aside, whenever I build a rigger with a big truck, I can't resist using one of the firmpoints for a grill-mounted knife. Nothing like giving him a 20L wound right before the 10D from getting run over.)

The initial test would be opposed drive tests, sort of like how melee combat works. Rigging and combat pool apply. The second would be a drive test, probably against a base TN of 4, to avoid crashing. For the damage code, I'd probably just refer to the rules currently written in the ramming section, and add some value, maybe +3 or even +4 to power, and possibly reduce the damage level by one.

As an aside, jousting is the state sport of Maryland. We love to do that sort of stuff all the time down here.
Slymoon
QUOTE (DTFarstar @ Feb 29 2008, 06:25 AM) *
Name - Reach - Damage - AP Value - Avail. - Cost
Lance - 3 - Square Root of Speed(KPH) + STR/2 + 1 - -1 - 8 - 95 nuyen.gif
Troll Lance - 4 - Sq. Rt. of Speed(KPH) + STR/2 + 1 - -1 - 10 - 115 nuyen.gif


These weapons are based off of a composite metal, filed to a sharp point. For improvised lances, modify reach based on weapon length(these stats assume that the lances are made at about the length of your average staff + about half a meter and designed to be held at one end), modify the damage code as appropriate for the material(Anything non-metal go to +0, anything soft go to -1), and modify the AP based upon the shape of the tip(sharpened well at -1, kind of sharpened at 0, filed to a basic aerodynamic shape +1, blunt +2).

Also, the weapon resists damage as a barrier equal to half the damage it inflicts on a target, and the rider has to make a crash test upon impact threshhold equal to one fourth the damage value inflicted upon his target + one fourth the damage value inflicted upon him minus the net hits on his attack. Stabilization functions on the vehicle in question reduce the threshold by 1.

That is probably how I would run it. Too detailed?

Chris


I don't know if I would add the extra reach for a troll in this case. As lances are traditionally held close to the body and under arm, the trolls arm length doesn't really come into play. Though the troll is taller and will likely lean forward farther than a non-troll, I wouldn't count that as a 1 meter advantage.

However, if you were wanting to not secure the lance and hold it at arms length then maybe use the trolls reach, but give him a str/2 -1 for damage, or just have him roll a disarm test anytime he hits.
Earlydawn
Just to throw in my two nuyen.gif , fluff-wise, you're far more likely to get gunned right off your bike by a ganger with a machine pistol then you are to get close enough to lance him. That said, you'd be a fool to not have a katana or some kind of longblade for when he pulls up next to you. Urban Brawl, on the other hand..
Kyoto Kid
...for Jousting on bikes Check out Knightriders by George Romero. Kind of cheesy & melodramatic, but some excellent motorcycle jousting scenes.
Wounded Ronin
You want to beat some gangers at Joust? Just roll your Video Games active skill, chummer.
Ryu
QUOTE (Whitelaughter @ Feb 29 2008, 01:40 PM) *
That'd work nicely if the 'lance' is built into the vehicle, but if you're actually couching a lance - and travelling at several times the speed of galloping horse - the sway of the tip is going to take practice to cope with.


How much sway is there if you are not sitting on a horse? Vehicles donĀ“t have much up-and-down movement.
Fortune
QUOTE (Earlydawn @ Mar 1 2008, 04:12 AM) *
fluff-wise, you're far more likely to get gunned right off your bike by a ganger with a machine pistol then you are to get close enough to lance him.


The idea is kind of like the old jousting tournaments ... a sort of competition as opposed to a means of offense. Ganger fun and games, duels, and the like.


Some interesting ideas so far. I do think that some kind of Weapon Skill should be involved, as it isn't an easy task to effectively couch a lance at speed.
djinni
QUOTE (Fortune @ Feb 29 2008, 05:04 PM) *
as it isn't an easy task to effectively couch a lance at speed.

it is on a bike
Fortune
QUOTE (djinni @ Mar 1 2008, 08:45 AM) *
it is on a bike

Tried it lately? With your left hand (because you need your right for the throttle)?

We're talking about 3 meters or so of weapon, couched properly, held steady, and aimed at speed. I maintain that it isn't a task that just anyone that rides a bike can master without effort (which would therefore qualify it as a skill).
Kyrn
I actually just finished up an NPC ghoul go-gang leader who rides down Ancients with his weapon focus spear. I'll have to see about finding that...
But basically he was a big ole ghoul adept (using the stats from the ghouls thread) with a fucked up regeneration power and high blades and bike skills. I figured it was the only way to one-up Torgo at his whole scary threat for the Ancients gig.
nathanross
QUOTE (Kyrn @ Feb 29 2008, 06:06 PM) *
I actually just finished up an NPC ghoul go-gang leader who rides down Ancients with his weapon focus spear. I'll have to see about finding that...

What is with all the elf-hate? I know were just better, but there is no need to be so jealous.

Seriously though, jousting on motorcycles would be deadly. It would also be HARD AS HELL! I would definitely call for a handling test for both the riders. Then roll initiative normally and do the melee test (using pole-arm skill). Damage is hard because if anyone is actually hit, they are boned. If the lance is pointed they are going to be impaled. If it isn't they will be knocked off the bike at 60+ mph as well as taking the damage. Also is the issue of the attacker being able to hold the bike up when they hit the other person. It isn't like the Force of the lance only goes one way, they are going to have to manage their bike so the opposing force doesn't push them off.

Either way, lot of handling tests. I'd also say that if one of them gets hit, and the attacker succeeds in his handling test, the other is dead or taking 10P+ damage. Not a sport I want to get involved in.

Of course, if your opponent thinks you want to joust with him, but, as you get close, drop the lance to draw an SMG/pistol/Katana, could be a dramatic scene. Nice way to get close to your mark, or just plain backstab their honor.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Fortune @ Feb 29 2008, 11:05 PM) *
Tried it lately? With your left hand (because you need your right for the throttle)?

We're talking about 3 meters or so of weapon, couched properly, held steady, and aimed at speed. I maintain that it isn't a task that just anyone that rides a bike can master without effort (which would therefore qualify it as a skill).

that's what datajacks and other DNI's are there for O.o
if you wanna go the whole nine yards gyroscopic mounts on the bike and rigger controll in the meat . .

and if i remember correctly, there was something like this in german versions of the SR books, called auto-duellants or something like that . .
Fortune
Not everyone has that kind of stuff. Especially in gangs.

The type of situation I am talking about is something like this ...

QUOTE (example)
Flick, an Ancients ganger is out cruising on his Scorpion when he spots Killjoy at the local Stuffer Shack. Fortunately for Spike ganger, he spots Flick at the same time, so no surprise attacks are in order. Pulling up to the curb, the elf snarls, pats his hog, and nods toward one of the No Parking signs lining the street. Killjoy grins and eagerly nods his agreement, quickly hopping astride his Viking.

The pair each ride one block in opposite directions before turning and stopping their bikes. They both dismount and acquire a sign post, each in his own way, with the troll ripping the post from the ground and the elf using his magic to accomplish the task. Having done this before, they quickly bend the sheet metal notice around the pole itself into a makeshift hilt for the 'lance'. Both ready, they remount and rev their big choppers' engines before popping the clutch and racing toward each other, lances extended.
Lyonheart
Well I'd tend to say they should be using blunted wooden (or something synthetic) lances and score it like a renfaire joust. After all while it takes balls if the GOAL was to kill each other they'd just rumble. So I'd do something like impact damage based on the vehicle ramming rules and have knockdown checks to see who stays on the bike, and if over X amount of damage (based on a would walls body/armor, don't have the book with me) is scored the lance brakes. 1 point for a broken lance, 3 for dismounting, winer takes the losers bike. Sounds like something Bike gangs on decent terms with each other might do to blow off steam or settle differences.
DTFarstar
The reason I made a seperate lance and gave the troll more reach with it is because the lance itself could be bigger while still maintaining the same stability when given to a troll. I guess I could have just represented that by letting the troll's natural reach apply, but I thought the troll lances would be approximately the same diameter(dependent upon it's ability to support its own weight along its length.) but much longer because of the extra stability a troll has when couching because of a chest armpit area roughly double the average size, and a minimum strength close to that of a max human.

Chris
DTFarstar
I assume that for some go gangers a joust is tantamount to an honor challenge to the death and for go gangs potentially a way to challenge for leadership.

Chris
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Feb 29 2008, 11:51 PM) *
and if i remember correctly, there was something like this in german versions of the SR books, called auto-duellants or something like that . .


Ah, Autoduellisten.
Yeah, they appeared in the SR1 Germany Sourcebook.
In fact, my favourite aspect of the AGS setting outside of Berlin.

Madmen in rigged, armored sports cars, jousting on the Autobahn.
However, there were no lances involved, but HMGs...

Edit : did i mention these jousts usually take place during rush hour traffic?
clangedinn
HAving been a fool and jousted with Scadian spears on pocket bikes i can say it hurts like hell. I cant imagine a full speed jousting match on full sized bikes.

As for how it is done game emchanics wise. Ther would definatly being a piloting and a weapons roll of some srot. The ganger needs to keep control of his bike and weapon at the same time. SO i would go as simple as a piloting skill roll and a spcilized pole arm weapon skill.

though this is a great idea for a scene in a run so i am straight up stealin it and usin it nyahnyah.gif
Fabe
QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Feb 29 2008, 08:53 PM) *
Ah, Autoduellisten.
Yeah, they appeared in the SR1 Germany Sourcebook.
In fact, my favourite aspect of the AGS setting outside of Berlin.

Madmen in rigged, armored sports cars, jousting on the Autobahn.
However, there were no lances involved, but HMGs...

Edit : did i mention these jousts usually take place during rush hour traffic?


In other words "Car Wars"
DTFarstar
Fortune, you could easily use my weapon rules to accomplish that. Normal size lances so the reaches on the weapons cancel out, Damage code being the square root of the speed of vehicle + Str/2+1(metal), AP would be either +1 or 0 depending on signpost type and if they are using the jagged end or smoothed top, for a speed limit sign, you can cut your hand on one relatively easily so I would say AP of 0. Avail of 0 and no cost, in this case of course. Driving tests to approach and reach whatever speed they want and then an attack test with the Exotic Weapon (Lances) skill to attack. See above for checking the weapons for busting and the appropriate crash tests and modifiers.

Chris
clangedinn
Sorry but the mention of carwars thoguh not on subject makes the little man in my head smile and dance. Someone needs to re release the box set for that game. i miss it so.
D Minor
Fortune.. Are you looking for more of a less lethal joust. One where death might be better than the loss of face.
I'd go with an Opposed Vehicle +Reaction test and the looser uses/takes ramming damage.




Fortune
DTFarstar: That's pretty good, but I don't want to be doing all that calculating and square root stuff if I don't have to. nyahnyah.gif biggrin.gif

D Minor: That's nice and simple, but I really would like to incorporate some type of skill. I wasn't meaning to imply that I always want to have lethal jousting, as this would be good for more social occasions, as some people have mentioned. But for those times when the lethality factor is warranted, I was looking for ideas.
DTFarstar
Seeing as we don't use fractions in SR and round to favor the player(IE up), you don't really have to do much math at all. I mean, really, everyone should know multiplication tables till about 15 or so and if you are jousting at speeds above that just attack and if one hits they both die/go to the hospital. Really. if you joust above 225 KPH, this first hit will most likely be your last.
Also, if you have meters per 3sec(meters per combat turn in SR), just multiply by 1.2 and you have KPH. 100mpct = 120 kph, 80mpct = 96kph. And again, I would assume that most reasoning people have the capability to know with relatively little to no effort what number squared will be slightly higher than what you just got. So, sure, I mean multiple by 1.2 and compare, but really you can do that in your head fairly easily. Especially since we round you don't even need to be exact.

Chris
Fortune
Yeah yeah, I know ... I'm just lazy and want nice set tables. biggrin.gif
Kyrn
QUOTE (DTFarstar @ Mar 1 2008, 12:53 PM) *
I mean, really, everyone should know multiplication tables till about 15 or so


HA! You clearly overestimate the ability of public schools to teach me math.
mfb
Fortune, what outcomes do you want to be possible? should only one rider take damage, or should it be possible for both riders to take damage?
Fortune
QUOTE (mfb @ Mar 2 2008, 06:43 AM) *
Fortune, what outcomes do you want to be possible? should only one rider take damage, or should it be possible for both riders to take damage?


I want it all! biggrin.gif

Seriously, I want the possiblity of both riders being struck/injured. I originally considered some kind of opposed test for this, but the possibility of ties is too small for my liking. I have pretty much decided on a special kind of combat turn where the participants both attack simultaneously (and only once). Seems to cover everything (that I have so far thought of) that way.

I'm still stuck on damage though.
mfb
are you dead set on using some sort of weapon skill for the attack test?
Slymoon
You could always try a modified attack test:

(Polearm (or specialist weapon) + pilot ground craft) /2 seeing as the attack is actually a special driving and attack test.
With a crash test after the hit (or after being hit)
Fortune
QUOTE (mfb @ Mar 2 2008, 08:36 AM) *
are you dead set on using some sort of weapon skill for the attack test?


Why?

QUOTE (Slymoon @ Mar 2 2008, 01:50 PM) *
You could always try a modified attack test:

(Polearm (or specialist weapon) + pilot ground craft) /2 seeing as the attack is actually a special driving and attack test.
With a crash test after the hit (or after being hit)


This is similar to something I was considering, only a bit better.
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