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1. Ok in Arsenal adding Manual Control Override-Manual Controls Mod takes up 4 slots, so removing Manual Controls would free up 4 slots?

2. Removed Manual Controls Mod takes up 1 slot. But adding manual controls takes up 4 slots? Which is the most correct one?

manual control override is a system that makes your vehicle unhackable (well, not really) when there's a person inside controlling it manually basically. it's not an actual manual driving method, it's just for people who are paranoid that a hacker will subvert their vehicle and crash them into a large, mostly-immobile object at high speeds. essentially, it's a system that cuts off the vehicle's controls from the matrix entirely while there is someone in the driver's seat.

Manual Control Override (Standard):

last line

"Note that all motorcycles come with manual controls."

So if you removed manual controls from a motorcycle would you get back 4 slots or have to use one?

Since it gives an actual mod cost to "Remove" the standard equipment... I'd go with it costs 1 mod slot to have it removed. The reasons for doing so should be obvious... to a top flight rigger/decker... he trusts his AI/direct interface drive skills and doesn't want to risk someone stealing the vehicle w/o going through his computer security gauntlet.

Similarly, adding manual controls to something which doesn't have them such as adding a pilot compartment to a drone is a very spacey affair and could be very worth the 4 mod slots on the drone.

Please correct me if I'm wrong... There are no rules for taking a firearm with an internal smartgun or suppressor, then removing the inbuilt manufacturer standard mod to gain extra mod space above the baseline 6 slots. I similarly don't see any for a vehicles standard off the shelf bits.

If you replace your vehicles armor with other armor you don't get 'credit' for the normal armor you remove. It takes just as much to mod the street bike with 6body/4armor to 6/12 as it does to upgrade the dirt bike from 6/6 to 6/12.

I see no reason why pulling out the stearing column should give you any more mod space. The vehicle still needs the motors/means to actually turn the wheels and such. All you're doing is pulling some stuff out of the drivers seat. I'd only consider allowing you to get more room for monitors and MFD's at the drivers console.
Bikes are manual control only unless you have another mod, so the built in mod probably reflects this.

Removing manual controls is probably for riggers who never use the steering wheel anyway.
Actually, ne'er mind. Falconer already got this one.
hmm Well so Falconer you are saying that if I add Manual Control Override-Manual Controls it takes 4 slots but if it take those same Manual Controls out it costs 1 slot? to install them then take them out is 5 slots?

Since one mod is Manual Controls Override-Manual Controls and the mod is Remove Manual Controls they are each different things.

To me to remove the Manual Control Override-Manual Controls from a motorcycle frees up 4 slots, and does not take a slot.

As for you firearm example

If an off -the-rack weapon comes with certain upgrades
like smartgun, gas-vent system, etc., it is assumed that those
upgrades are modifications instead of accessories. However,
those modifications do not count toward the slot limit and the
weapons themselves still count as unmodified.

Firearms are specifically limited to 6 slots for modification, vehicles have different limits on the number of slots ie body.

The example I am referring to is a motorcycle not a 4 wheeler.

From what I have read a majority of the vehicles use Drive By Wire, so a large amount of the motors etc are gone. Same in todays aircraft which use Fly By Wire controls vs the ones that still use the hydrolics/motors etc. Fly By Wire still uses fewer mechanical items to adjust the controls.

I can mod a vehicle by removing its stock smart tires and then gain some speed/accel, yes handling will drop.

OK mods built into a vehicle/firearm by the OEM, are basically free slots, they do not count against the slot maximum. So removing a designed/built in mod done by the OEM, gains you no extra slots since they are basically free.

So removing the motorcycles Manual Control Override-Manual Control does not cost any slots since they did not count against the slot max for that vehicle.

QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 1 2008, 09:49 AM) *
hmm Well so Falconer you are saying that if I add Manual Control Override-Manual Controls it takes 4 slots but if it take those same Manual Controls out it costs 1 slot? to install them then take them out is 5 slots?

I'm fairly certain that's what Falconer's saying. It occurs to me that vehicles (and weapons) are not by design modular. Modification is always a bit of a hack. I imagine that the slots "freed" by removing the manual controls are taken up by all the bypassing one would need to do to compensate for the removal of the previously integral part of the vehicle.

I had a friend in college who was on the FutureTruck team back in the 90s. It turned out that when they replaced the original engine with a smaller one, they actually had to redesign a lot of the rest of the vehicle because the initial end result would have required more space than the truck had. So yeah, I can see it taking up a slot.
No I'm just reverting to my normal board self which enjoys rules lawyering and reading and making sure that powergamers really have to work at things rather than have things just handed to them. (really I like some challenge in my game systems).

Look at the description for Manual Control override... if you ONLY add a button to cutout the exterior comms so a person cannot remotely hack into your vehicle and control it but still leave the 'drive by wire' intact, then it takes 1 mod space. If you COMPLETELY remove the drive-by-wire system, then it takes 4 (EG: reduce everything with hydraulics, no computers... no way anyone ever is going to hack this thing even if they have physical access to the vehicle). The last one is also self-explanatory... extra control point... EG: driver's ed vehicle with redundant controls in the passenger seat for the instructor; quote "upgrades a passenger seat to a SECOND driver's seat."

Manual control override, doesn't remove the controls, it ADDS a safety cutout.

The other mod similarly... Removed manual controls... it's 1 mod space... description says why some people would do it.

To give a very stupid example... my reading of the rules... shadowrunners have an armored van. Decker "removes the manual controls" from the front seat, this takes up one mod spot... but adds a secondary control station in the back compartment since it's a more secure location (no snipers shooting at the driver by making a called shot through the window). Is that -1 mod, offset by a +1 mod for no mod space used. No obviously by the rules it's eating up 2 mod spaces!!! One for each mod. There are no mods with 'negative' values. Who knows... maybe the front 'drivers compartment' is just a trap now set to lock and gas whomever tries to take 'control' of the vehicle.

The OP's point is null and void if he's not talking about removing and adding a new control station somewhere else, as then you're not using the mod remove control station, you're simply REMOVING YOUR MOD and putting the original controls back in space. I don't see any infinite space tricks here if that's what he's going for either.

That's my reading of the rules.
QUOTE (Falconer @ Mar 1 2008, 08:46 PM) *
There are no mods with 'negative' values.
actually, there is one. if you give the vehicle limited control or something like that (the same thing as the iball has, where you can only roughly adjust direction and you have no actual engine at all) it gains you mod slots iirc. other than that minor nitpick, your point remains.
I wasn't specific enough... there are no vehicle mods I note which enhance modspace (though a few of the vehicles have an extra +4 just because they're designed to be moddable).

The mod you're referring to is only applicable to minidrones.
"Limited Maneuverability (Minidrones):" You can get extra mod space for a drone if it can't move itself... manually emplaced sensor drones... thrown spyballs... etc.

QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 1 2008, 09:57 AM) *
OK mods built into a vehicle/firearm by the OEM, are basically free slots, they do not count against the slot maximum. So removing a designed/built in mod done by the OEM, gains you no extra slots since they are basically free.

So removing the motorcycles Manual Control Override-Manual Control does not cost any slots since they did not count against the slot max for that vehicle.


Falconer read to the above quote. grinbig.gif

Intend as to attempt to free up mod slots, but to no avail.

I am designing a motorcycle with sidecar, sidecar has rigger cocoon, ie that is where the motorcycle and sidecar are controlled. But since weapon mounts take up so many slots.....will try other angles. grinbig.gif

I'm fairly certain the manual controls that all motorcycles come standard with refer to the handlebar/fork assembly (which usually also houses the braking and throttle controls). When you put in the 'remove manual controls' mod, you're basically disconnecting the handlebar assembly from everything, and replacing it with a purely electronic interface (which apparently takes up an additional slot). The joints and actuators that the handlebar assembly used to be attached to is still there - because they're necessary to the function of the vehicle - but now they're connected to the new electronic controls. You might even take the bars themselves off completely, but that apparently doesn't free up enough space to be considered an upgrade slot (or it would probably mention a space rebate).

Adding manual controls to a vehicle that didn't previously have them (a Doberman, let's say) takes up so much space because you have to install both the manual control device and the hardware that actually makes it do stuff like accelerate, turn, and brake. And since the vehicle wasn't designed with those in mind, it takes up a lot of previously-empty space.

As for that bike you're wanting to customize, unless you're using a Dodge Scoot, you're going to have plenty of room for the stuff you want. You'll have at least 9 slots to work with once you add the sidecar. 1 to replace the controls with electronics (or, alternatively, put secondary controls in the cocoon - it still just takes up one slot), 2 at the most for the cocoon - leaving you with 6-7 slots for your weapons or whatever else.

Not really

Normal Size Weapon Mount 1 slot
Internal Visibility +2 slots
Turret Flexibility +3 slots

Total of 6 slots

I you start with a HD Scorpion you have 8 slots.

Rigger Adaption 1 slot....

Yes some slots will be in the sidecar, but only three.

Depending on interpretation and GM you might also need the gyroscopic mod for the bike.

Also it's quite possible to have the basic manual control override (perhaps it should have been called "wireless control override"?) and removed manual controls, you just have to rig it directly by wire or skinlink.
Firstly, think of me as a devil's advocate here... I'm simply trying to read the rules and ask why not? and it's answer why? And raise the kind of scrutiny your GM may.

Did you consider using the one new bike in Arsenal?
Thundercloud Contrail: body6, special: +4 mod slots, w/ sidecar that's up to 13.

Using that w/ the sidecar would get you up to 13 mod slots on a bike which is an awful lot.

I don't think anyone would have any issues with making the sidecar the 'rigger cocoon'. Though I'd be a little leary of someone putting it on the bike itself due to common sense... where are you going to put a fully enclosed rigger cocoon on a bike? In fact, that's not a bad idea putting it in the sidecar as you could detach the sidecar then use the bike as a full-fledged combat drone. Given your other comment where are going to put both the cocoon and a 360degree weapons turret?!

Also by your post, your big problem is that you're trying to hide a 360degree weapon turret the big enough to hide a LMG inside of a motorcycle (internal visibility). Use some common sense... of course most bikes aren't going to have space for something that big. Why would an internal forward flexible (front 90degree arc, limited turret), or fixed forward (point the bike at the target to shoot), not be an option? Limiting the traverse of the weapon mount brings the size down 4mods instead of 6.

Just to do this as an exercise.... is this what you're trying to do?

Thundercloud Contrail:
Body: 6(+4modspace), Armor4, Accel 20/40, speed 180, Pilot1, Sensor1

Rigger Adaptation: 1 (you can debate whether this is necessary or not... IMO the books aren't clear.. if the bike has MCO:manual control is it like the '67 chevy and needs the upgrade, or is the manual control an option you get by turning off the built in vehicle drive computer, as it's pretty obvious to me that off-the-shelf motorcycles can't drive themselves lacking the following mod). Cycle only has a Pilot rating of *1*... I'd say this upgrade would raise it to *3* (see the chart on p. 213-214... 1 is dumb as an appliance a drone has a pilot rating of 3).
Motorcycle Gyro: 1, allows operation of the cycle as a standalone drone w/o the sidecar, also necessary for the rigger modification I'd think... in any case handling +2!
Weapon Mount: 6 total, 1 +2(concealed vis), +3(turret flexibility)
Description: the turret pops up out of the motorcycles seat area... obviously not usable if there's a passenger there or as a way to eject someone you don't like smile.gif. Also as a GM given the small size of a motorcycle... probably limit the size to a SMG (where are you going to hide something the size of a LMG + ammo inside a motorcycle?)

That still leaves 1 mod free on the bike itself... engine upgrade, armor upgrade, 3 if you limit the traversal of the turret to forward only. Armor upgrade would help a lot if you're going to use it as a combat drone (only 4 base armor... could be raised to 12armor for 1mod point). If you get rid of the 360 traverse turret, you could still guard your back with something like a 'road strip ejector' for 1 mod.

Sidecar: 1, sidecar drawbacks to speed/accel
In the sidecar, Rigger Cocoon: 1mod
2 more mod spaces free for the sidecar... since this is a rigger and the rigger is blind in his cocoon I'd probably look at putting upgraded sensors on the sidecar itself, or a minidrone rack or two.

Remember: being able to launch a small or two mini-micro drones increases your mod slots because each of those drones has mod slots... EG: rather than putting ECM on the bike itself... you could put it on a small flying drone. So that's a way to put loading options on the bike after the fact. But in a chase type scene... the small drone probably won't be able to keep up... so while it does magnify your slots there are some drawbacks and costs.
Motorcycle Gyro stabilization is not needed the motorcycle with sidecar. Gyro enables a 2 wheeler or 1 wheeler to be able to remain upright with out a being mounted.

Rigger Adaption is needed since in Arsenal only drones have it built in unless the vehicle says it does.

Adding side car to a motorcycle takes 1 slot from the motorcycle.

Good location for a weapons mount. I agree I was not going to install a LMG there SMG or MP was more along the lines I was thinking.

Another option is to have two sidecars,,,one with the rigger, the other sidecar for other options, weapon mount, drone rack etc. Yes that does drop speed and handling though.

The rigger is using the sensors that are on the motorcycle, yes additional ones would be nice.

I have not looked at the Thundercloud but will now, thanks.

The rigger cocoon is going in the sidecar, the weapon on the bike.

Well reason I suggested the gyro was so you could go somehwere... disconnect the sidecar and cocoon (literally). Then use the motorcycle as a drone like you would something like a steel lynx. Gyromount for the weapon is pretty nice mod as well.

I look forward to you posting what the final bike looks like smile.gif.
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