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Redjack
QUOTE (BBB @ pg. 242)
Using First Aid
Characters with the First Aid skill may immediately help reduce the trauma of wounds (Stun or Physical). {.. snip..} First Aid may only be applied to a character once (for that set of wounds), and it may not be applied if the character has been magically healed.

To me, this seems cut and dried. You can make one attempt for stun and one attempt for physical as you may heal "Stun or Physical" and First Aid can only be used once "for that set of wounds"... ergo once per each set of wounds.

The debate seems to boil down to whether or not stun and physical are considered two separate sets of wounds. To me, it is clear since wounds is further defined within the description of First Aid as "Stun or Physical". Thoughts?

Dashifen
For me, it's always broken down not into the stun/physical tracks, but when the wounds were applied. I usually allow First Aid once per "event" that causes wounds, be that "event" an entire combat scene, a summoning/binding attempt, etc. Usually, within these "events" there's the possibility for more than one test causing wounds at different times (like summoning drain and then binding drain). Regardless, I consider this one "set of wounds" with respect to being able to use First Aid on them.

So, to answer your actual question, I allow a First Aid to heal the set of wounds. If someone suffers massive drain during a summoning/binding attempt which overflows their stun into physical, then the First Aid test could actually heal up some of that Physical and some of that Stun. For example, if the mage takes 10 boxes of stun overflowing 2 boxes of physical, and the First Aid test yields 4 hits, that would patch up the 2 Physical wounds and 2 of the Stun wounds as well. First Aid could not be used to effect the remaining 8 boxes of Stun damage.

Same would hold true for combat, especially highly armored folk who often take some Stun damage when their armor switches damage from Physical to Stun. Granted, I tend to interpret things in the most complex way possible and my brain seems to misunderstand even the most simple ideas sometimes, so it's quite possible that no one else reads the rules this way.
Redjack
So according to that, if I take 5p from a gunshot, then 4s from drain, then 3p from a club, I can get three separate first aid checks, one for each set of wounds, right?
bibliophile20
QUOTE (Redjack @ Mar 2 2008, 02:08 PM) *
So according to that, if I take 5p from a gunshot, then 4s from drain, then 3p from a club, I can get three separate first aid checks, one for each set of wounds, right?

Except for healing the drain, yeah, that's how I'd rule it; the hole in your shoulder can get stoppered, healing a few boxes of damage, and the smack to the leg with the club can have NewSkin and BruiseBeGone (ExtraLargeEconomySize) applied to it, but the Drain can't be fixed with anything but time.
Eyeless Blond
Huh. I just realized, First Aid only allows you to heal up to your skill in damage, but you can default.

But, what good is defaulting? If your skill is 0, then you can use first aid to heal a grand total of... 0 boxes of damage? Even with a medkit, which adds its rating, you're still limited to your skill, which is 0.
jago668
The way we do it is useable once per set of wounds. So if you get shot twice, each for 3 boxes of physical damage. Then you can roll first aid once, and cure up to 6 boxes of damage (since that is all you have), or you skill whichever is lower. So say you got 3 boxes healed, leaving you with 3. Then you get stabbed for 2 boxes of physical. Well you could be first aided again for the stab wound since it is a new injury that occured after the first set was bandaged. Now you could only heal the 2 boxes, not the 3 boxes remaining from the first set.

It gives someone a reason to actually stop and get some duct tape and super glue put on. Maybe even a cute little bandaid with unicorns and princesses on it.
WearzManySkins
I can see first aid being used on each received wound ie physical or stun damage.

But using it to "heal" drain from spells and technomage actions ie Sprite compiling....is at best a grey area.

A bruise ie stun damage is fairly obvious to most looking over your body.

Does a first aid kit have the needed sensors/diagnostic tools to see any neurological issues/damage caused but compiling sprites or matrix damage?

As for the drain due to summoning a spirit or casting a spell...how does a first aid skill/kit enable you to "percieve" that?

I would say that physical damage ie physical or stun first aid can be used to "heal" each would of such provided the "golden hour" is in effect.

As for spell/summoning drain, matrix damage and technomage drains, a first aid skill/kit is not good enough, you need a medical skill and or shop/facility.

WMS
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (jago668 @ Mar 2 2008, 04:09 PM) *
It gives someone a reason to actually stop and get some duct tape and super glue put on. Maybe even a cute little bandaid with unicorns and princesses on it.

FYI Super Glue was originally developed as a suture less means of wound closure in surgeries. I know a Sterile Processing Tech who used to have to Sterilize the powder prior to each surgical use. The powder was mixed in the OR room as the surgeon needed it. It was later made in the super glues of today.

WMS
hyzmarca
Drain isn't some sort of mystical life-force sucking, that's Essence Loss which can't be healed by First Aid. Drain is actual physical injury caused by channeling mystical forces through your body. It's stigmata. It's your eyeballs explosing and squirting blood out ten feet. Its your hands spontaneously combusting with magical fire leaving you with horrible burns whne it dies out. It is your skin cracking and oozing for no apparent reason. It is chunks of your brain necrotizing. It is magical energies bursting out of a giant hole in your chest like Chamber from the X-men. Stun drain is less. It is your classic bleeding hands and feet or bleeding from the eyes or from the ears or spontaneous bruising. Physical drain is your bones shattering from within because you can't contain the mystical forces being channeled through them.
Riley37
The separation of "wounds that cause damage and eventually kill you" and "woulds that cause pain and eventually make you pass out" into two entirely separate tracks is going to cause oddnesses and inconsistencies in one form or another. They should be inter-related, perhaps in a way that draws on the White Wolf damage system.

My very basic Red Cross First Aid training included lots of techniques for making a wound less likely to aggravate (stopping bleeding, keeping a broken bone from further jarring, etc.) but didn't include anything that would make a bruise or an electrical shock hurt any less, except analgesics; those are kinda like stim patches but without the "unable to rest" side effect. Which, by the way, is tough on mages using them to ignore the penalties from Stun caused by Drain. Did aspirin and ibuprofen become ineffective when magic returned in 2011? Is there no substance one can usefully take when one *wants* to ease a big headache by lying down and napping?

There's an argument for nerfing First Aid with a rule that each trauma event can be at best reduced from multiple boxes of damage (eg a gaping bleeding hole in your body) to a single box (a taped-shut laceration/puncture).

Anyone here done medicine on people who got up again for further exertion, eg boxers?
jago668
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 2 2008, 06:23 PM) *
FYI Super Glue was originally developed as a suture less means of wound closure in surgeries. I know a Sterile Processing Tech who used to have to Sterilize the powder prior to each surgical use. The powder was mixed in the OR room as the surgeon needed it. It was later made in the super glues of today.

WMS


Actually I was aware that it was originally designed for such a purpose. Superglue you buy in a store isn't, but I new it started its life as a sutureless wound closure thingy stuff majigger.
sungun
QUOTE (jago668 @ Mar 2 2008, 06:58 PM) *
Actually I was aware that it was originally designed for such a purpose. Superglue you buy in a store isn't, but I new it started its life as a sutureless wound closure thingy stuff majigger.


the basic chemical component, the stuff that has the real magic in superglue was actually designed to make gun sights. wiki says, "Cyanoacrylate was discovered by Harry Coover at Eastman Kodak during World War II when searching for a way to make plastic gun-sight lenses. It did not solve this problem, since it stuck to all the apparatus used to handle it." i think he tried it for a couple of other failed applications before landing on wounds and general glue.
Slymoon
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond @ Mar 2 2008, 03:58 PM) *
Huh. I just realized, First Aid only allows you to heal up to your skill in damage, but you can default.

But, what good is defaulting? If your skill is 0, then you can use first aid to heal a grand total of... 0 boxes of damage? Even with a medkit, which adds its rating, you're still limited to your skill, which is 0.



pg. 244

QUOTE
If a character is un-trained, she can still make the test using her own attribute and the device's rating in place of her skill. If the device is hooked up to a patient and left unattended, simply roll the device's rating for any tests.


I would assume since it states that the rating is used in place of your skill, that means the maximum boxes that can be healed in that case is the device's rating.

Though say you have 1 skill and a device rating of 3, would you use the greater of the two? Add both together? or be stuck with your skill as a maximum at a grand 1. Meaning the unskilled would be better off using the Medkit.

Edit:
I know on the same page/ paragraph the medkit adds as a DP modifier to skill, but again if skill is the limiting factor, and the kit is only a DP modifiers, by RAW an unskilled medtech is actually better off using a kit than a low skilled one. o_O
Redjack
QUOTE (bibliophile20 @ Mar 2 2008, 01:20 PM) *
Drain can't be fixed with anything but time.


QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 2 2008, 04:19 PM) *
But using it to "heal" drain from spells and technomage actions ie Sprite compiling....is at best a grey area.


QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 2 2008, 04:19 PM) *
As for spell/summoning drain, matrix damage and technomage drains, a first aid skill/kit is not good enough, you need a medical skill and or shop/facility.


QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Mar 2 2008, 04:37 PM) *
Drain isn't some sort of mystical life-force sucking, that's Essence Loss which can't be healed by First Aid.


While you all are welcome to house rule this, all the above answers are clearly in conflict with canon.
QUOTE (sr4 FAQ)
Can Physical Drain be healed by magic?

No. Damage from Drain must be healed by regular mundane medical care and/or rest.


So back to my original question: How do you define a set of wounds?
Slymoon
QUOTE (Redjack @ Mar 2 2008, 08:28 PM) *
So back to my original question: How do you define a set of wounds?



Personally I treat it very simply:
The stun track and Physical track are distinct hence a first aid on each one is allowable.
Second a wound is a set of damage. ie: 6 boxes whether it be (6) 1 hit wounds or (1) 6, I count as one wound.
Healing then getting hit again, adding to the boxes is a new set of wounds. ie: heal 4 out of 6 leaves me with 2 boxes. I take an additional 3 after healing bring my total to 5. I now have 5 wounds to heal.

Yes that is very simple and can be manipulated if the GM allows the player. ie: I have 5 boxes after healing, I decide to nick myself for 1 box to heal some more. That is a blatent cheat to try to skirt the easy nature of healing (at least my thoughts on it). I would make the character take a full test and take the full damage.

Yes, that isn't quite realistic since surely somone can decide to nick themselves. However, given the nature of the abstractness of wounds (as I described) I would give them that option.

Suck it up and live with what you have until you take a valid new wound or actually wound yourself full pool and everything.
WearzManySkins
@Redjack

Not really Canon but RAW. Previous Canon has been overwritten by RAW of late.

Is Drain a wound? yes drain causes the effects like a bullet but it is not a bullet wound.

How does someone equipped with First Aide know where to the "Band Aide/Dressing" on a drain effect?

Since even magic can not "heal" drain effects but magic can patch a bullet hole..."regular mundane medical care", to me means a medical facility/station, not Billy Ray Boob with a First Aide kit. grinbig.gif

WMS
WearzManySkins
@Redjack

Looks to me like you are "Fishing" around for a answer that you want. grinbig.gif

Wonder if you are looking for that answer as a player or a GM? smile.gif

WMS
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Redjack @ Mar 2 2008, 09:28 PM) *
While you all are welcome to house rule this, all the above answers are clearly in conflict with canon.


So back to my original question: How do you define a set of wounds?


MY response mentioned nothing about magical healing and does not conflict with canon. The rule you quoted clearly stated that drain can be healed with mundane medical care. Magic cannot heal drain due to the metaphysical cause of the wound, not its physical form or lack thereof. Technology, dealing with the wound on a purely physical level, can do many things which magic cannot do.
ArkonC
In general, I'd say 1 set of wounds is inflicted with 1 roll of the dice.
1 shot = 1 wound, 2 stabs = 2 wounds, 1 burst = 1 wound...
If a wound inflicts 3P and 4S, that would be 1 wound and can only be healed once, if you scored 5 hits on the test, you could remove any damage op to a total of 5, 3P+2S or 1P+4S...
At least that's how I understand it...
Redjack
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Mar 2 2008, 10:05 PM) *
MY response.....

*sigh* These are not the droids you are looking for...

QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 2 2008, 09:02 PM) *
Looks to me like you are "Fishing" around for a answer that you want. grinbig.gif

Wonder if you are looking for that answer as a player or a GM? smile.gif

Actually both. A conversation with Fisty in his game got me started on the question... but then I became unclear about how to rule in my own games and decided to seek out more information about how other people rule on it. My seeking to stick so close to RAW/Canon is because I run SRM games and the like.

Since First Aid is considered "regular mundane medical care", I will keep with that. I do appreciate your opinion though.
WearzManySkins
Cancer is not a wound, nor can First Aide help.

Influenza is not a wound but some first Aide can help the symptoms, but not the base cause.

Drugging someone can cause physical and or stun damage but is not a wound so First Aide has little use directly.

A cardiac arrest is not a wound, and First Aide does not have any real effect on the cause/treament the the cardiac arrest.

Overdosing on a drug is not a wound, but first aide is not a major factor in treatment.

OK post the quote where First Aide is considered "regular medical care". There appears to at least 3 posters here that do not think so.

Drain is a non wound, some cases a assist feedback injury.

Since First Aide treats "wounds" post/quote where it states that Drain is a wound? Yes it is a injury. First Aide does not heal damage it treats heals "wounds".

WMS
Riley37
One way to interpret "set of wounds":
All the wounds you've received since the last time someone did First Aid on you.
If you take a box of damage, First Aid it, then take two boxes of damage and First Aid them, you end up with no remaining damage.
If you take a box of damage, then you're too busy to First Aid it, then you take two more boxes of damage, you now have a "set of wounds" totalling 3 boxes. If you then get First Aid with two hits over the threshold, you are left with 1 box that cannot be healed by First Aid.

The combo of First Aid with an R6 medkit, plus a friendly mage with Heal, means that some characters can routinely expect that if they take 4 or 5 boxes of damage in a fight, it will all be healed within minutes afterwards, so completely that their body feels as if those wounds had never even happened.

If a character takes 1 rank in First Aid, then Specialization: Combat Wounds, can they, with 3 hits over the threshold, heal up to 3 boxes of Combat Wound damage? (and same for fixing 3 boxes of twisted ankle damage if they have 1 rank with Specialization: Sports Injuries.)
ArkonC
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 3 2008, 05:53 AM) *
Drain is a non wound, some cases a assist feedback injury.

Since First Aide treats "wounds" post/quote where it states that Drain is a wound? Yes it is a injury. First Aide does not heal damage it treats heals "wounds".

QUOTE (BBB p.167)
The effort of manipulating mana can exhaust or even injure a magician.

So either it exhausts you and all you need is a sit down and an energy drink or it injures you and you can heal it with first aid...
Redjack
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 2 2008, 10:53 PM) *
Cancer {....} Influenza {....} Drugging {....} cardiac arrest {....} Overdosing..

The third and fifth are dealt with as toxins. There is a full set of rules specifically to deal with that. Those are only relevant to the conversation at hand where/when they cause damage. When they do, First Aid seems to apply.
The first, second and fourth are not really addressed in the game. In the vaguest of terms they are addressed by the Medicine skill.
QUOTE (BBB @ pg142)
Medicine {...} It includes the proper treatment of disease and illnesses


QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 2 2008, 10:53 PM) *
OK post the quote where First Aide is considered "regular medical care". There appears to at least 3 posters here that do not think so.

The three posters I saw all posted positions that were effectively disputed with a reference to the FAQ. The remaining tangent that seems to be here now be in question is the definition of "regular medical care".

To me, that is First Aid (within 12 hrs) & Medicine (anytime). In any case, Medkits and Autodocs (BBB, pg244) can serve for either First Aid or Medicine AND can be used even if the character lacks the proper skill. So that seems to fall even within your interpretation, right?
Whipstitch
Another reason First Aid can be defaulted is because it has a few uses beyond reducing the number of filled boxes on your condition monitor. It can be used to try stabilizing a dying comrade (although you're likely better off with a trauma patch, a good logic is better than nothing) and can be used to diagnose an illness, which can be a pretty big deal if you've been poisoned with god knows what and need to get a hold of the proper type of Binder 8.


As far as the injuries vs. wounds thing, I'd take it a bit more seriously if chemical burns, sports injuries and electric shock weren't listed as valid specializations for First Aid and if drain wasn't capable of dealing Physical damage. I mean, how narrowly are we defining wounds and injuries here? I mean, if you want to be all nitpicky about it a wound is typically a laceration of some sort, and clearly they haven't limited things that much.
WearzManySkins
RAW page 242 First Aide
"Characters with First Aide skill may immediately help reduce the trauma of wounds(Stun or Physical)"

RAW clearly state what wounds are and they used a totally different term for what Drain injury is.

RAW page 62
"Both spellcasting and conjuring as well as other magical activities, cause a type of fatigue to Magicians called Drain."

Note is describes it as a fatigue not a wound.

RAW page 167
"Drain is usually Stun damage, though there are situations in which it can be transformed into Physical damage."

Note the use of damage not wound. The developers have a good grasp of words, this is not a accident of wording ie Drain and wounds.

If you wish to "House Rule" it otherwise go for it, but RAW says something different.

WMS
ArkonC
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 3 2008, 06:34 AM) *
RAW page 242 First Aide
"Characters with First Aide skill may immediately help reduce the trauma of wounds(Stun or Physical)"

RAW clearly state what wounds are and they used a totally different term for what Drain injury is.

RAW page 62
"Both spellcasting and conjuring as well as other magical activities, cause a type of fatigue to Magicians called Drain."

Note is describes it as a fatigue not a wound.

RAW page 167
"Drain is usually Stun damage, though there are situations in which it can be transformed into Physical damage."

Note the use of damage not wound. The developers have a good grasp of words, this is not a accident of wording ie Drain and wounds.

If you wish to "House Rule" it otherwise go for it, but RAW says something different.

WMS

I can't help but notice you conveniently forgot about the word "injure" I quoted, from that very paragraph you quoted...
Also, the argument that the devs have a good grasp of words is very iffy, everyone makes mistakes, and unclear things will slip through...
For example, it doesn't say anywhere explicitly that weapon foci need be weapons, though there are sentences that assume this is so...
Redjack
QUOTE (sr4 FAQ)
Can Physical Drain be healed by magic?

No. Damage from Drain must be healed by regular mundane medical care and/or rest.

You cannot conveniently ignore the FAQ simply because it invalidates at least part of your argument.
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (Redjack @ Mar 2 2008, 11:41 PM) *
You cannot conveniently ignore the FAQ simply because it invalidates at least part of your argument.

grinbig.gif biggrin.gif

The FAQ does not invalidate RAW. Again post what you have on "regular mundane medical care" is?

It is not argument just posting quotes that shoot the heck out of your argument.

From RAW "Regular mundane medical care" is not First Aide. biggrin.gif

WMS
WearzManySkins
From Augmentation page 120
QUOTE
First Aid: Described on p. 124, SR4, the First Aid skill is primarily
concerned with mitigating the effects of wound trauma (see
p. 242, SR4) and stabilization (p. 244, SR4). It can also be used to
diagnose basic health and the severity of injuries, as described in
SR4 and also under Diagnosis, p. 125.


QUOTE
Medicine: The Medicine skill (p. 124, SR4) is concerned
with long-term healing (p. 242, SR4), as well as with stabilization
and diagnosis, just like First Aid. Medicine is also used for treating
long-term illnesses, including the effects of diseases and toxins (see
Antidotes, p. 246, SR4).
Most importantly for Augmentation, Medicine is the skill
used for all varieties of surgical procedures and medical treatments,
including magical health and gene therapy (Genetics is a
valid specialization for this skill). Medicine is also used for implant
surgery (p. 127), though the care and creation of implants is under
the purview of the Cybertechnology skill.


Note the use of the phrase Magical Health under the Medicine skill. Also note that Medicine can be specialized into Magical Health, which negates some of the penalties regarding healing Magical Types and Technomages.

WMS
ArkonC
Mundane = not magic...
First aid = not magic...
First Aid = mundane...

And again you ignore the fact that in the explanation of drain it says it injures a mage...
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (ArkonC @ Mar 3 2008, 12:08 AM) *
Mundane = not magic...
First aid = not magic...
First Aid = mundane...

And again you ignore the fact that in the explanation of drain it says it injures a mage...

grinbig.gif grinbig.gif grinbig.gif

It also goes and describes it as a strain called Drain. grinbig.gif

Injuries are not treatable under the quotes regarding first aide. grinbig.gif I can injure you by using drugs or nanoware but first aide helps you naught.

WMS
ArkonC
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 3 2008, 07:16 AM) *
grinbig.gif grinbig.gif grinbig.gif

It also goes and describes it as a strain called Drain. grinbig.gif

Injuries are not treatable under the quotes regarding first aide. grinbig.gif I can injure you by using drugs or nanoware but first aide helps you naught.

WMS

Actually, first aid irl also deals with handling drug overdose...
Can you show me where it says that knives do wounds?
If it doesn't say that than knife damage cannot be healed by first aid either...
I for one don't remember ever reading about knife wounds...

EDIT:
QUOTE (bbb p.148)
Melee Damage
The Damage Value for most melee attacks is based on the attacker’s Strength 2 (round up), modified for the weapon. A standard unarmed attack inflicts (Strength 2)S. Impact armor (not Ballistic) is used to defend against melee weapons.

No mention of wounds, melee damage therefor cannot be healed with first aid...
WearzManySkins
Where does it define or explain what Regular mundane medical care is?

Look at my quote from Augmentation first aide does not deal with drug overdoses. IRL is not germane here.

As for the rest of you statements/requests.....No

Please post where it states what "regular mundane medical care" is? Not what you think it is, but quote it from RAW.

WMS
ArkonC
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 3 2008, 07:36 AM) *
Where does it define or explain what Regular mundane medical care is?

Look at my quote from Augmentation first aide does not deal with drug overdoses. IRL is not germane here.

As for the rest of you statements/requests.....No

Please post where it states what "regular mundane medical care" is? Not what you think it is, but quote it from RAW.

WMS

1) it doesn't
2) I never said it did, I just pointed out that irl, it does...
3) why not? you use the wording that they use damage and not wound as an argument pro, so I'm just using your argument. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it go away...
4) see 1)

Now unless you prove to me that melee damage does wounds, your line of aguments falls into the same category...
So unless you prove this, you need not try to rehash old posts...
Fortune
I fail to see the problem. First Aid heals damage. Most damage, including Drain, is depicted in Shadowrun as boxes on the Condition Monitor (whether Physical or Stun). First Aid is described as healing boxes on the Condition Monitor, no matter what the source.
Eyeless Blond
The problem seems to be, as usual, the FAQ contradicts other interpretations of the rule, and so you've got people on one side trying to figure out a good explanation for the FAQ's rule, and people on the other side trying to ignore the FAQ and do something else.
WearzManySkins
The FAQ is outdated or in need of revision in light of Augmentation.

Is Acupuncture, Homopathy, Herbalism, and the Mystical Healing optional rule "regular mundane medical care"?

@Eyeless Blond
Yes you are correct. It is like the half empty, half full discussion of a glass of water. grinbig.gif Since it seems that "regular mundane medical care" is not defined or explained.

WMS
Whipstitch
I'm still unconvinced of the existence of any big contradictions anywhere, honestly, although I can see how people got around to thinking that. I would point out though, that you do get "wound modifiers" from fatigue damage as readily as you do gunshots, and for the sake of clarity I really wish someone would have made things a bit clearer if a wound is intended to be a meaningful distinction from other types of damage.
Nightwalker450
My team does set of wounds as all damage since the last time you had first aid.

On the subject of First Aid Kits and damage healed caps. This is the way we've ruled...

Option 1, you use the first aid Kit
First Aid + Logic + Rating (Cap First Aid)

Option 2, you follow the first aid Kits instruction
First Aid + Rating (Cap Rating)

We see it as whether the First Aid Kit is assisting you, or you are assisting the first aid kit. Highly skilled people do the first option, since they will get more dice. Low skilled people do the second option, so that they can have a higher cap rating (Rolling more dice doesn't matter if you're limited to only 1 hit anyways)
Earlydawn
On a related note, I only hopped on with Fourth Edition, so has there ever been any kind of canon explanation to how you can hook an individual up to the medkit and it heals autonomously?
Eyeless Blond
The same thing that's explaining more and more of SR these days: magical free-flowing nanomachines.
CrystalBlue
Ok chummers...this is starting to sound like the RAW-demon discussions I used to hear at D&D games.

You are talking about the straight rule vs the spirit of the rules. I think the idea here is anything that would cause the body negitive effects, such as bleeding, fractures, or serious problems can be cured by first aid. One must look past stupid definitions and use their brain. First aid and, in most respects, trauma medicine all deal with the symptoms. No, curing the symptoms does not cure the problem. It's not supposed to. Stiching close a wound, sterilizing a bullet hole, picking shrapnal out of your foot. This will not cure any underlieing problems such as muscle damage, nerve damage, or seriously shattered bones. But it will keep the person alive by keeping blood inside them and repairing bones so they can walk again...or at least splinting them.

Drain can be healed. Why? Because the only thing you're curing is their meat. You're stopping the bleeding and putting ice packets on the burns. The distorted mana field generated by that wound is what keeps people from healing it magically.

Please please PLEASE keep in mind, first aid is trauma medicine. All you're trying to do is fix the pain or damage in the body, not the thing causing it. That's for surgons and specilist doctors to cure.

Now, if you'll excuse me... *dumps a bucket of STFU water on the flame war*
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Earlydawn @ Mar 3 2008, 12:08 PM) *
On a related note, I only hopped on with Fourth Edition, so has there ever been any kind of canon explanation to how you can hook an individual up to the medkit and it heals autonomously?



Given that an SR4 medkit can also be used for remote surgery by a riggerdoc, I'd assume that SR4 Medkits are essentially portable surgical drones with pop-out arms. cyber.gif
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (CrystalBlue @ Mar 3 2008, 12:46 PM) *
Now, if you'll excuse me... *dumps a bucket of STFU water on the flame war*

There is no excuse for you....you play Shadowrun. sarcastic.gif smile.gif

Despite how you may feel this is not a flame war,,,I see no Admin posts warning us. Yes they are watching but to them it has not yet reached the point where they have to post something.

The crux if the issue to me is this,, The FAQ sets Drain apart from all other damages/wounds/trauma.

The phrase used in the FAQ "regular mundane medical care" is not defined/explained further or anywhere else. But it is the Developer/Designers definition/intent that is the key one.

The meaning/explanation/definition of that phrase basically is in two camps,,,

1. First Aide is "regular mundane medical care".

2. First Aide is not "regular mundane medical care".

If the developers/designers definition falls into camp 2, then the camp 1 users will have to seriously redefine how they have been playing their characters that suffer the effects of Drain.

If the definition falls into camp 1, then the camp 2 persons will seek better explanations on exactly how First Aide works in SR4.

@Eyeless Blond
Well technically no,, there is a nanomachine med kit/first aide kit in Augmentation. grinbig.gif

@Earlydawn
I agree but no explanation/description is in RAW.

To me First Aide is not there to replace the use or care of medical doctors, but in game terms it has, careful characters using skills etc, first aide/med kits heal pretty much everything in games now days.

But to me each time a character is damaged/wounded/injured, technically each occurance gets a separate first aide/med kit attempt.

Me I am thinking of a house rule that First Aide/med kits can not heal every damage box a character has ie you can heal all boxes but one for each wound/damage/injury a character receives. So that would mean if a character receives 10 wounds and each is greater than 1 box then the character will still have 10 boxes of damage left after first aide. Caveat if a wound only causes 1 box of damage then a first aide can heal it away.
ArkonC
I indeed think WMS and me don't even have any bad blood between us...
I'm just smarter and more insightful than he is, but nothing malicious... wink.gif
I actually think it would be a good idea to house rule that damage from drain cannot be cured by anything but natural healing, but I think the RAW allow for First Aid or Medicine healing...
Or maybe take WMS house rule a step further and allow first aid to only heal up to half of a wound and use medicine for the rest...
But since I'm playing a Doc myself now, I'm happy with being ably to get rid of all damage boxes on all sheets... smile.gif
Earlydawn
I always liked the way Jagged Alliance (and undoubtedly other games) handles injury. When you get shot / stabbed / set ablaze, you lose a certain amount of "active health", and will likely continue to lose health until you naturally stop your trauma.. or in the case of catastrophic injury, die. First Aid stabilizes you, in the sense that you no longer lose health and are more or less fit for fight, but your current HP remains at the point at which you received it. To permanently recover it, you need to take serious time to heal, bringing you back to your maximum health.
Shrike30
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 2 2008, 08:53 PM) *
Cancer is not a wound, nor can First Aide help.

I don't recall even seing cancer statted out. In theory, diagnosis could be accomplished with First Aid and proper equipment. Actual treatment involves the Medicine skill, as it is a "long-term illness."

QUOTE
Influenza is not a wound but some first Aide can help the symptoms, but not the base cause.

Diagnosis of Influenza can be accomplished via the use of First Aid, and then the appropriate antivirals injected from a First Aid kit, allowing a First Aid user to treat the base cause. The damage caused by influenza (fatigue from your immune system ramping up, etc) can also be treated.

QUOTE
Drugging someone can cause physical and or stun damage but is not a wound so First Aide has little use directly.

Again, diagnosis can be accomplished with First Aid and the proper equipment, allowing the user to administer the proper antidote and letting them treat things like anaphylaxis, extra-pyramidal reactions, SLUDGEing, seizures, and all the other good things that can happen when you drug someone. Medkits even list "poisoning" as one of the things they can treat.

QUOTE
A cardiac arrest is not a wound, and First Aide does not have any real effect on the cause/treament the the cardiac arrest.

Uh... negative. Cardiac arrest is most certainly treatable with First Aid. The use of defibrillators in emergency medicine is widespread, and you can train almost anybody to do CPR. ALS/ACLS providers frequently administer epinephrine, atropine, and a variety of analgesics and sedatives to aid with intubation and pain control. That's not even beginning to address what can be done if the cause of cardiac arrest is determined to be narcotic overdose (treatable with Narcan), hypertension (treatable with nitroglycerine or possibly morphine), coronary artery disease or congestive heart failure (treatable with metoprolol and sometimes lasix), dysrhythmia (treatable with lidocaine hydrochloride, pronestyl, sometimes pitressin with ventricular fibrillation), hypoglycemia (glucagon, dextrose, glucose)... the list goes on.

Augmentation's rules for Severe Wounds include Severe Organ Failure, with one of the examples being a stopped heart. The systemic effect is to treat the patient as being in Physical Damage Overflow until stabilized, meaning they take another point of damage every (Body) turns. Stabilization can be accomplished with First Aid. Not going to a hospital after being in cardiac arrest to get longer-term care for whatever caused it would be retarded and life-threatening, but people do it.

QUOTE
Overdosing on a drug is not a wound, but first aide is not a major factor in treatment.

Diagnosis with First Aid, administer antidote, mitigate symptoms. Drugs, toxins, diseases, and all that other good stuff are all handled the same way. You know the EMT's cure for hangovers? IV of normal saline and high-flow oxygen until the symptoms lighten up.

QUOTE
OK post the quote where First Aide is considered "regular medical care". There appears to at least 3 posters here that do not think so.

Drain is a non wound, some cases a assist feedback injury.

Since First Aide treats "wounds" post/quote where it states that Drain is a wound? Yes it is a injury. First Aide does not heal damage it treats heals "wounds".


"Damage" is defined on SR4 pg 152. One of the listed causes of "Stun Damage" is magical drain, with analogies like "bruising" and "muscle fatigue" trying to give an idea of what Stun Damage is. Overcasting causes Physical Damage, which is caused by things like "guns, explosions, bladed weapons, and most magic spells." The SR4 Errata states that "Neither Stun nor Physical damage resulting from Drain can be healed by magical means."

The term "wounds" is used in the Health section (SR4 pg 242) to talk about when you can and cannot use First Aid to heal damage, where it states that "first Aid may only be applied to a character once (for that set of wounds)...". It is later explained that Medicine "may only be applied once to each set of wounds...", very much like first aid, and then goes on to explain that "Additional damage taken afterward counts as a new set of wounds." The game system doesn't care if that damage came from drain or a bullet in your ass... that new damage is "a new set of wounds."

First Aid's skill description defines it as "basic medicine in a hands-on sense." The FAQ says that "[Physical] Damage from Drain must be healed by regular mundane medical care and/or rest." At no point does it say anything to indicate that First Aid does not qualify as "mundane medical care," and trying to argue that being treated by an EMT trained in "basic medicine" is not "mundane medical care" is ludicrous.

Drain damage may be burns, internal bleeding, splitting headaches, heart failure, a stroke, or any number of horrible things happening to your body because of the strain of running a lot of power through your aura. And you know what? If it were post-Awakening, and some guy got into the back of a medic rig burnt up by drain, they'd slap oxygen on him, start an IV, bandage any obvious injuries, and think about starting some morphine or fentanyl for pain control. Even without the narcotics (best represented as inducing a High Pain Tolerance analog), the rest of the treatment would be enough to help remove a couple of boxes from a damage track. First Aid is mostly interested in getting you back into the fight, or keeping you from dying before you get to a hospital, which is why systemically, it's represented by removal of a couple of boxes of damage, and stabilization for the severely injured.

It may have magical origins, but drain still inflicts real harm on your body, and you can treat a burn or a bleed from drain the same way you'd treat one with mundane causes. If you don't want First Aid to be able to heal a few boxes of damage caused by Drain in your game, feel free to houserule it that way, and I hope that it makes the game more enjoyable for you, but the only thing in the rules as written that doesn't treat damage caused by Drain the same as any other kind of damage is magical healing.
WearzManySkins
@Strike30
You are behind a few posts in your reply. grinbig.gif
I believe the description of First Aide in Augmentation is the more correct view by the Developers/Designers now. Otherwise they would not have had to restated it. Same for the description of Medicine.

@Arkonc
We aint got no bad blood breeder..... grinbig.gif
True what you have said about me,,,,but remember,,,,damn forgot again. grinbig.gif

WMS
Fortune
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 4 2008, 08:49 AM) *
@Strike30
You are behind a few posts in your reply.


Not really. I think his summation of the rules is pretty much spot on.
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