I was looking at the price of expendable spell foci when building a character recently. It struck me that the Foci was way out of bounds in price relative to it's usefulness. Instead of buying a single extra die, for a single spell, I could get:
An ingram valiant. Sure Mages can cast combat spells but dishing out a serious 10 round burst from one of those and doing 17D damage is worth a lot more than an extra die on one combat spell that's gone forever afterwards.
OR
Lvl 6 fire resistance, insulation, or shock resistance for my armor (Actually this is an understatement as those cost a lot less but we're talking a starting player).
OR
Enough IPE grenades to take out a Dragon (Okay, not a dragon but at least a HTR team).
OR
If you want to go magical, 3 additional force points on your shamanic lodge or a rating 4 hermetic circle for each type of elemental.
I think the expendable foci is overpriced compared to the other gear you could get, it's just a single die after all. I'd see it's price as more reasonable if it were 50-100 nuyen per point of force, possibly on a curved scale to make the really high-end foci more expensive per point.
Full Version: Expendable Foci
I would have preferred it if they simply kept it like it was in 2nd Edition, allowing you to take an Expendible Fetish for spells as a limitation. They were dirt cheap and their benefit was limited, but significant, and they had all kinds of flavor and potential.
As it currently stands, I agree. They're grossly overpriced for the benefit they grant. It would have been better if you 1) had to buy each one for a specific spell and 2) the price was dependant on the Drain Level of the spell as well as the force. Illusion Spells with a Light drain would be dirt cheap (about 50 nuyen/Force), for instance, while Combat Spells with a Deadly Drain would be a bit more expensive (maybe 500 nuyen/Force)
As it currently stands, I agree. They're grossly overpriced for the benefit they grant. It would have been better if you 1) had to buy each one for a specific spell and 2) the price was dependant on the Drain Level of the spell as well as the force. Illusion Spells with a Light drain would be dirt cheap (about 50 nuyen/Force), for instance, while Combat Spells with a Deadly Drain would be a bit more expensive (maybe 500 nuyen/Force)
The way it stands: Expendable foci are useful but not in every case. In-general you use them when long-term effects are required and you're not going to need them that often.
For example: When you're wanting an extra kick for ritual sorcery, giving an expendable focus to each memebr of the group could add an immense amount of power. They'd also be useful for spells that are going to be quickened or stored in sustaining foci for extended periods.
What an expendable spell focus is not is a particularily expencive round of ammunition for your magic gun.
For example: When you're wanting an extra kick for ritual sorcery, giving an expendable focus to each memebr of the group could add an immense amount of power. They'd also be useful for spells that are going to be quickened or stored in sustaining foci for extended periods.
What an expendable spell focus is not is a particularily expencive round of ammunition for your magic gun.
My biggest problem with expendable foci comes from my habit of playing a hermetic. Most of the time, if you spend your money on an elemental, not only do you likely get repeat services out of it, but the whole thing costs one third less than the focus. Sure, if you're talking high-force you have the chance to blow it with the elemental, but when you're throwing around that kind of cash, why not get something renewable instead, doof?
The price is nice and balanced when you look at it compared to the other foci, but compared to other things that give the same benefit, no way. I'd say somewhere in the area of 100-500
per power point, probably aiming on the high side just to avoid making it *too* munchy for permanent spells.
The price is nice and balanced when you look at it compared to the other foci, but compared to other things that give the same benefit, no way. I'd say somewhere in the area of 100-500
per power point, probably aiming on the high side just to avoid making it *too* munchy for permanent spells.
I think it's underpriced actually. As Lilt stated, think Ritual. You're not suppose to be using these on a run, that's what spell foci are for. These are for when you want the most BANG for your spell. Anytime an NPC in my games is using Ritual Sorcery, I roll 24 dice for him, because anytime a PC does it, they roll at LEAST 24 dice (you gonna waste your time doing Ritual Sorcery that might 'bounce'?)
Also think Quickening. I commonly use these things to Quicken a spell. I have (everyone cringes at this point) 84 karma of Quickened spells on me, and not a single one rolled fewer than 24 dice to cast, and almost all of them also spent 3 Karma Pool on for the most number of successes (rerolls).
No, when you think of what you can do with those foci, the cost is perfect actually. Especially since they don't require karma expenditure, something a Mage never has enough of.
Sphynx
Also think Quickening. I commonly use these things to Quicken a spell. I have (everyone cringes at this point) 84 karma of Quickened spells on me, and not a single one rolled fewer than 24 dice to cast, and almost all of them also spent 3 Karma Pool on for the most number of successes (rerolls).
No, when you think of what you can do with those foci, the cost is perfect actually. Especially since they don't require karma expenditure, something a Mage never has enough of.
Sphynx
I still prefer the way they used to be handled. 
Hey: I allow expendable fetishes anyway. I also meant quickening when I said anchoring in my last post... Editing now.
We use them regularly. They're expensive, but they're used mainly when you absolutely have to kill every drekwit in the room.
even more valuable in ritual sorcery, as people have said. Based on their cost, it ensures players don't stack up on hundreds of the damn things and sling unresistable spells whenever they feel like it. Power doesn't come cheap. So what? So grenades are cheaper? Yeah, but they're traceable (assuming the spell is cleansed), often are more noticeable, leave LOTS of evidence, and can be spotted before you let them off at an inconvenient time. No, I think they're actually fine as they are. Usual disclaimers apply (i.e. I've been proved wrong often and am man enough to admit it!)
even more valuable in ritual sorcery, as people have said. Based on their cost, it ensures players don't stack up on hundreds of the damn things and sling unresistable spells whenever they feel like it. Power doesn't come cheap. So what? So grenades are cheaper? Yeah, but they're traceable (assuming the spell is cleansed), often are more noticeable, leave LOTS of evidence, and can be spotted before you let them off at an inconvenient time. No, I think they're actually fine as they are. Usual disclaimers apply (i.e. I've been proved wrong often and am man enough to admit it!)
| QUOTE (spotlite) |
| We use them regularly. They're expensive, but they're used mainly when you absolutely have to kill every drekwit in the room. even more valuable in ritual sorcery, as people have said. Based on their cost, it ensures players don't stack up on hundreds of the damn things and sling unresistable spells whenever they feel like it. Power doesn't come cheap. So what? So grenades are cheaper? Yeah, but they're traceable (assuming the spell is cleansed), often are more noticeable, leave LOTS of evidence, and can be spotted before you let them off at an inconvenient time. No, I think they're actually fine as they are. Usual disclaimers apply (i.e. I've been proved wrong often and am man enough to admit it!) |
True, but grenades have a high enough conceal that it's pretty rare for them to get spotted unless you're carrying a dozen. I've never heard of anybody tracing a grenade but getting traced through an astral sig seems to happen every other run. Noticable is relative, try casting a fireball or Powerball with comparable damage (force 16 D damage?) and see how many people don't notice. Plus you don't suffer drain from tossing a grenade. I'll grant you the spell can't be taken away normally and is easier to conceal before use (Unless, again, there's a pesky wagemage around who'll know you're awakened 10 seconds after you show up) but for the price of 1 die worth of focus you can buy almost 20 grenades! And the player regenerates 5 free die every turn anyway.
I've never heard of "Stacking" expendable foci, is it possible to use more than one per spell?
Most definitely. You could even stack two Power Foci if you like. Just beware of Focus Addiction.
Excellent....
Mitsuhama Unit 13 just got a whole lot more vicious
Not like they needed the help...
Mitsuhama Unit 13 just got a whole lot more vicious
Not like they needed the help...
I just want to point out that, by Canon, they're not stackable... I personally think it was a bad typo in the book, but page 190 does say it's an "exclusive" action to use an Expendable Focus. 
I think it's a typo (shoulda been complex, not exclusive) because I can't imagine not being able to use the Exp Focus on Ritual/Quicken/etc spells, and you can't really stack exclusive actions.
Anyhows, I recommend NOT sticking to Canon on this issue, or you're quite right in that the Foci are a waste of money (you just don't spend that kinda cash for a one shot spell).
PS, I would LOVE for someone to prove me wrong on this so I can quit qrguing the stupidity of the ruling, so please, all, pick up the books and do that for me.
Sphynx
I think it's a typo (shoulda been complex, not exclusive) because I can't imagine not being able to use the Exp Focus on Ritual/Quicken/etc spells, and you can't really stack exclusive actions.
Anyhows, I recommend NOT sticking to Canon on this issue, or you're quite right in that the Foci are a waste of money (you just don't spend that kinda cash for a one shot spell).
PS, I would LOVE for someone to prove me wrong on this so I can quit qrguing the stupidity of the ruling, so please, all, pick up the books and do that for me.
Sphynx
Well, I'd say you've hit it on the head with the exclusive thing. You can't possibly activate more than one per spell, or be sustaining another spell and use one without a sustaining focus.
magic gear is expensive. That's the way it is. Supply and demand.
magic gear is expensive. That's the way it is. Supply and demand.
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| I just want to point out that, by Canon, they're not stackable... I personally think it was a bad typo in the book, but page 190 does say it's an "exclusive" action to use an Expendable Focus. |
I didn't recall that, but it's been a while since I read up on them. That's a pretty dumb ruling, IMNSHO.
If it is an Exclusive action to use the focus, doesn't that mean you can't cast the spell, as it is a seperate action? Or, I may just be an idiot. You can probably ignore this post.
It's an Exclusive action to use it to cast a spell. They're saying that using it with the spellcasting is an Exclusive action, thus it can't be used with Exclusive spells or while performing other magical activities.
Ha! See. I was just an idiot.
Gah! I need to re-read all my books. It's been years since I played SR. And now I get to play this weekend.
Gah! I need to re-read all my books. It's been years since I played SR. And now I get to play this weekend.
Personally I think they are too expensive, the only character of mine to use Expendable foci has the enchanting skill and makes his own dirt cheap by comparison.
| QUOTE (Catsnightmare) |
| Personally I think they are too expensive, the only character of mine to use Expendable foci has the enchanting skill and makes his own dirt cheap by comparison. |
Which is, of course, one good reason to learn Enchanting.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| It's an Exclusive action to use it to cast a spell. They're saying that using it with the spellcasting is an Exclusive action, thus it can't be used with Exclusive spells or while performing other magical activities. |
Which would mean you couldn't use 2 at a time, OR use it to cast Ritual Sorcery, OR use it to Quicken a spell, OR use it to put a spell on a Sustaining Focus (if you read it 'by the wording').
However (reading the 'feel' instead of the 'wording'), since you don't have to Quicken or apply to a Sustaining Focus at the moment you cast (but can wait until later to auto-sustain) you actually could use Exp foci for a spell you would like to auto-sustain. It's only exclusive for the duration of the casting, unlike an Exclusive Spell which is exclusive while sustaining as well.
So, GM can easily use his own interpretation here and call either 'Canon' if he so chooses I think (though I tend to think the 2nd is more apt). But either way, only 1 Excl Focus can be used unless you House Rule (which we have)
Sphynx
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| Which would mean you couldn't use 2 at a time, OR use it to cast Ritual Sorcery, OR use it to Quicken a spell, OR use it to put a spell on a Sustaining Focus (if you read it 'by the wording'). |
I never said you could. Nor did the rules.
| QUOTE |
| However (reading the 'feel' instead of the 'wording'), since you don't have to Quicken or apply to a Sustaining Focus at the moment you cast (but can wait until later to auto-sustain) you actually could use Exp foci for a spell you would like to auto-sustain. It's only exclusive for the duration of the casting, unlike an Exclusive Spell which is exclusive while sustaining as well. |
Too bad the fact that it's Exclusive "for the duration of the casting" is enough to make it unusuable for quickening or using in a sustaining focus. And no, the "feel" of the rules don't suggest anything to the contrary. The "intent" of expendable foci are clear; they're there to give you a one-time boost to on-the-spur spellcasting.
I also love how the rules say that they're "popular" and "inexpensive," too.
| QUOTE |
| So, GM can easily use his own interpretation here and call either 'Canon' if he so chooses I think (though I tend to think the 2nd is more apt). But either way, only 1 Excl Focus can be used unless you House Rule (which we have) |
No, he can't call it canon, but he is indeed free to do whatever he likes with them, just like with everything else. But canon is clear. It can't be used for much of anything beyond on-the-spur casting.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Too bad the fact that it's Exclusive "for the duration of the casting" is enough to make it unusuable for quickening or using in a sustaining focus. |
I think you proved my point there.... "casting" is the word, not "sustaining". Casting is only the act of getting the spell out there, not the act of keeping it out there. So, yes, it is quite possible to interprete the 'canon' explanation as being allowed to use Sustaining Foci OR Quickening, unless you can point to a quote that says you ahve to apply a spell to a sustaining focus or Quicken a spell AT "casting".
Sphynx
You mean like these blatantly obvious quotes that weren't even remotely hidden or difficult to find?SR3 p. 191: "Casting a spell for a sustaining focus to sustain is an Exclusive Action."
MitS p. 77: "Quickening is considered an Exclusive activity, so no other magical actions may be taken while performing this tehcnique."
Please read both sections in full before responding again, too. You can't cast a spell, then decide to throw it into a focus or quicken it; it's all part of the same action... thus an Exclusive Action, and thereby not allowing the use of an Expendable Focus while doing so.
Quite right on Sustaining Focus, I was definitely wrong there.
Quickening though, I don't see that you need to prepare for Quickening right when you cast. I see nothing that says you can't cast the spell, then decide later, while sustaining it, that you would like to Quicken it. As a matter of fact, that's how I always Quicken, I won't start pumping Karma in unless I see I have enough successes to make it worth it (hence why it took me so many tries to get my Improved Willpower cast). It says, you cast then begin the Quickening process (Ie: 2 distinct parts).
And the exclusitivity wouldn't apply if you're not attempting to Quicken at the moment of casting (which by my reading, you couldn't do anyhows, you have to wait until after the casting to do the Quickening). As I recall, Rickki the rat boy didn't start quickening the Stink spell until after the patrons were seen flying out the windows gagging (sustained long enough to make sure it was at the power level/successes he wanted).
Sphynx
Quickening though, I don't see that you need to prepare for Quickening right when you cast. I see nothing that says you can't cast the spell, then decide later, while sustaining it, that you would like to Quicken it. As a matter of fact, that's how I always Quicken, I won't start pumping Karma in unless I see I have enough successes to make it worth it (hence why it took me so many tries to get my Improved Willpower cast). It says, you cast then begin the Quickening process (Ie: 2 distinct parts).
And the exclusitivity wouldn't apply if you're not attempting to Quicken at the moment of casting (which by my reading, you couldn't do anyhows, you have to wait until after the casting to do the Quickening). As I recall, Rickki the rat boy didn't start quickening the Stink spell until after the patrons were seen flying out the windows gagging (sustained long enough to make sure it was at the power level/successes he wanted).
Sphynx
Post? What post?
Read the second paragraph under Quickening. The Quickening process includes casting the spell, sustaining it, and using Astral Perception while doing so... all of which is part of the Quickening process, which is an Exclusive Action.
I read that paragraph, and I don't get your interpretation out of it, sorry. I see it as saying it's 2 seperate actions based on the word "then". However, knowing how stubborn the both of us are, I won't try to be more cinvincing in my reading of it. We'll just both disagree on that point forever I guess. 
Sphynx
Sphynx
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