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MadPiper
Hello, I have created a magic user whoes concept is soley based around mind manipulation spells and illusion spells. I had a few questions about some of the spells that I am unsure about.

Mind control, do they know they are being mind controlled, or when you are done with them and let them go, do they realize they were mind controlled?

Influence, Now, I think of this as basically, jedi mind trick, However, one question. Can I do it telepathically? Mind control says you can, but does this one?

Telepathy, What would the spell be for a telepathy spell? Not mindlink, Just me sending mental messages to a person, within LoS. Basically, I can talk normally into their head. I can stustain it for the person, but have to recast it when I change people. So I was thinking something like Telpathy Type:M Target: W Duration: S Drain: +1(L) I have to beat the threshold of half thier will to even do it. Should they wish to block me out, it would be similiar test to control thoughts. Have to be LoS to do it. And its one way. I cannot hear their thoughts, only they can hear mine. Of course they could reply normally. I dunno, does that sound about right?

Alter memory, I do not fully understand the limits of "one single memory" Can I only make them forget they had coffee in the morning, or can I make them forget a person they know?

Trid Phantasm, I cannot tell if this spell is awesome, or blows. Now, I get that I could use this spell to immulate improve invis and physical mask. However, using it to make illusions other then that it gets very very vague. So I will ask my questions, that will tell me if it sucks or not. First, whether I use it for around my body, or an area, once I cast trid phantasm, for example, I make myself a cat. Once it is cast, I cannot change it? If I wish to change the illusion, whether I am sustaining it or not, I must cast a whole other illusion to replace the previous? Second question, can the area move? If lets say I make a illusion of a car that will follow the car me and my chummers are in. Would it vanish the instant it left the designated area, or would the car follow us because the area moves with my line of sight? I am just trying to figure out if this spell is versatile or not, basically.

Also, If anyone has any recommendations for traditions that you think would fit for a caster that will do nothing but illusion and mind manipulations. Oh, and I will probably be a mage over a shamman, I dunno, my vision of shammies do not seem to mix well with mind control stuff. Anyhow, thanks for the suggestions. Its a huge help.

Note: We are playing SR3 atm, but will be probably be switching to SR4 when the time lapse happens, 2061 to 270, 9 years. So suggestions for either system can apply. Thanks again!
Whipstitch
QUOTE (MadPiper @ Mar 6 2008, 08:00 PM) *
Trid Phantasm, I cannot tell if this spell is awesome, or blows. Now, I get that I could use this spell to immulate improve invis and physical mask. However, using it to make illusions other then that it gets very very vague. So I will ask my questions, that will tell me if it sucks or not. First, whether I use it for around my body, or an area, once I cast trid phantasm, for example, I make myself a cat. Once it is cast, I cannot change it? If I wish to change the illusion, whether I am sustaining it or not, I must cast a whole other illusion to replace the previous? Second question, can the area move? If lets say I make a illusion of a car that will follow the car me and my chummers are in. Would it vanish the instant it left the designated area, or would the car follow us because the area moves with my line of sight? I am just trying to figure out if this spell is versatile or not, basically.



Actually, I think you have it kinda backwards there; as a GM I doubt I would let Trid Phantasm easily emulate Improved Invisibility, although I let it do an awful lot of other things. It lets you create a scene, not "delete" things from sight. For example, if you're hiding from someone you could easily use Trid Phantasm to make it look like you are running down the hallway away from your hiding spot or otherwise create diversions although I wouldn't let you just "delete" yourself from the scene entirely without hiding or using Improved Invisibility as well.

I agree that Trid Phantasm is a spell with a rather sketchy set of limitations though, and I could easily see other GMs disagreeing with me on the subject, since there is certainly many, many theoretical ways to make Trid Phantasm emulate other spells through clever misdirection, but I find for the sake of game balance my interpretation that it cannot readily sub in for other spells works rather well. It's really a case of GM fiat, and you really will have to have a good chat with your GM to find the right balance between Phantasm being an "I win" button in the hands of a clever mage instead of an incredibly useful tool. Trust me though when I say that even my rather uncharitable interpretation of the spell is still firmly in the "awesome" categoryl. Being able to make it seem like Lonestar is driving up when you're surrounded by gangers or that a swarm of Bug Spirits are crawling out of a subway station is stupidly powerful.
nezumi
QUOTE (MadPiper @ Mar 6 2008, 07:00 PM) *
Mind control, do they know they are being mind controlled, or when you are done with them and let them go, do they realize they were mind controlled?


Control thoughts? My reading is they only know if you want them to, because you control their thoughts. After the spell has ended, I would give them a chance to roll, however, but that's GM's discretion.

QUOTE
Influence, Now, I think of this as basically, jedi mind trick, However, one question. Can I do it telepathically? Mind control says you can, but does this one?


I wouldn't describe it as telepathic, but you control the spell, so you control what's going into the target's head. So it doesn't require you say anything.

QUOTE
Telepathy, What would the spell be for a telepathy spell? Not mindlink, Just me sending mental messages to a person, within LoS. Basically, I can talk normally into their head. I can stustain it for the person, but have to recast it when I change people.


You're going to have to work with the GM for that, but the rules in MitS are a good guideline (and it looks like you've already gone there). The drain code does look reasonable.

QUOTE
Alter memory, I do not fully understand the limits of "one single memory" Can I only make them forget they had coffee in the morning, or can I make them forget a person they know?


The former, not the latter. You may have multiple memories about a person. Unless you only met the person once or twice, there are too many memories to properly erase that with just one casting.

QUOTE
Trid Phantasm, I cannot tell if this spell is awesome, or blows.


That depends very much on your GM. I had a GM who said I couldn't change the image after casting (while I was sustaining it), in which case it pretty much sucked for its drain code.

QUOTE
Now, I get that I could use this spell to immulate improve invis and physical mask.


Physical mask yes, invisibility no.

QUOTE
First, whether I use it for around my body, or an area, once I cast trid phantasm, for example, I make myself a cat.


That would be tough because the image of the cat would be smaller than you are. You could cast an image of an oak tree and hide in that, though.

QUOTE
Once it is cast, I cannot change it?


As I said, GM's discretion. Ask him now and establish that because it makes a world of difference.

QUOTE
Second question, can the area move?


Also GM's discretion. I'd say yes, but some GMs say no.

QUOTE
Also, If anyone has any recommendations for traditions that you think would fit for a caster that will do nothing but illusion and mind manipulations. Oh, and I will probably be a mage over a shamman, I dunno, my vision of shammies do not seem to mix well with mind control stuff. Anyhow, thanks for the suggestions. Its a huge help.


Hermetics in SR3 don't get bonuses to anything.

Siren, Seductress, Lover and Erzulie all get bonuses to illusions and control manipulations. There may be more.
Riley37
Trickster in SR4 gets bonus to Illusions, but not to mind control. Mind control may allow more pranks to keep the Trickster mentor spirit happy, though.

Trid Phantasm should not be "the one spell that also has the uses of all other illusions". Take a look at illusions in other systems for reasonable limits. If your GM rules that it does not allow the caster to adjust the image after casting, then perhaps there should be another spell which does, with of course higher Drain.


b1ffov3rfl0w
QUOTE
Hermetics in SR3 don't get bonuses to anything.

Siren, Seductress, Lover and Erzulie all get bonuses to illusions and control manipulations. There may be more.


I'm pretty sure that Hermetics can take the Mentor Spirit quality in SR4. Just from reading the RAW, trying not to remember anything from earlier editions, there's nothing that says otherwise. Indeed, there's at least one Mentor Spirit (Firebringer, I think) that gives a bonus to Fire Spirits, which shamans can't summon (and the BBB only mentions hermetics and shamans, plus the ability to make up your own traditions).

I could be wrong on that, of course.
Fortune
QUOTE (b1ffov3rfl0w @ Mar 7 2008, 06:28 PM) *
I'm pretty sure that Hermetics can take the Mentor Spirit quality in SR4.


True. You'll note though, that nezumi specifically referenced SR3. You even included it in your quote. wink.gif
Pendaric
I run Trid phantasm as capable of recreating most of the object related illusions and some other spells, after a discussion on illusionary light. I am happy for the character to access to the light spell for example at a massive drain upgrade. I also allow the images to change within the area of trid phantasm. But as stated it a ref call.
In your arguement point out the drain code of the spell though.
nezumi
QUOTE (Riley37 @ Mar 6 2008, 08:55 PM) *
Trid Phantasm should not be "the one spell that also has the uses of all other illusions". Take a look at illusions in other systems for reasonable limits. If your GM rules that it does not allow the caster to adjust the image after casting, then perhaps there should be another spell which does, with of course higher Drain.


Compare the drain code of most indirect illusions to phantasm. +1D for trid phantasm, the nearest competitor is Silence or Double image, at +1S (one silences a wide area, the other creates a second, moving version of you that affects every sense, and foreboding (D) which makes everyone flee the area. Discounting boost/decrease reflexes, trid phantasm has THE highest fixed drain code in the game. I would read that as meaning it should be pretty darn powerful, because you're not going to get the chance to cast it a second time.
MadPiper
So even if I mind controlled two security guards, had them fight along side of us, then let them go when we left, they would not know they were mind controlled? Or is this basically, there are times when they wont know they were mind controlled, but if you make them do crazy things they normally would not do, they probably know somethings up.

As for trid phantasm, i see I was far from the only person confused about it, that makes me feel good hehe. As for the invis with trid phantasm, I thought you could just create the same scene, just without you in it, or something like that, but its seems not. Interesting.

So is there no official ruling on what phantasm can or cannot do? I can see trid phantasm being weak for its cost if you can only do one effect per casting, in a area that is fixed. However, I can see it being game brokenly powerful if you can change the effect at will as long as you sustain it, and the area can be moved as long as its within you line of sight. I almost thing of Star treks Halo Decks as the prime example of too powerful, the victim can run and run and run, but never leave the illusion, which I can change to suit my need at will to harrass him or her. So unless he or she breaks the spell with spell resistance, they are screwed.

One other question relating to trid phantasm come to mind, since trid phantasm bends light and matter to fool sensors, would not a person, outside the area of the spell, still see the effects of the illusion? But only the sight part, he or she would could feel, touch, smell, or anything else unless he or she was inside the illusions area? I dunno, just a thought.

Also as a side note, just for your information, I am not trying to munchkin, I just want to know what spells can or cannot do. Period. I imagine my gm would let me get away with trid phantasm being insanely powerful, actually, I almost guarantee it. However, I like to play by fair rules, or as close to the book as I can get. There are rules for a reason. So yea, I tend to nerf myself instead of the gm doing it.
nezumi
QUOTE (MadPiper @ Mar 7 2008, 03:52 PM) *
So even if I mind controlled two security guards, had them fight along side of us, then let them go when we left, they would not know they were mind controlled? Or is this basically, there are times when they wont know they were mind controlled, but if you make them do crazy things they normally would not do, they probably know somethings up.


If *I* were GM, unless the player were especially creative, they'd get a chance to make a willpower test every time they were asked to act in a way which is clearly against their beliefs (such as shooting at their own friends). Assuming they never succeed and eventually they're ditched somewhere and made to think the whole thing was somehow justified, once the spell ends they get to make an intelligence test (in that case, probably against a TN of 2) to figure out something is odd. Ultimately, if they find themselves sitting, surrounded by the dead bodies of all their friends, holding empty guns, and having a dim recollection of thinking their friends were actually aliens, they would probably figure out pretty quick that SOMETHING was up, and they better find another mage to read the astral signature off of them before it fades.

QUOTE
As for trid phantasm, i see I was far from the only person confused about it, that makes me feel good hehe. As for the invis with trid phantasm, I thought you could just create the same scene, just without you in it, or something like that, but its seems not. Interesting.


If you were in a telephone booth, you could remake the telephone booth without you in it. I'd have to reread the rules on how big an image you can create. At minimum, it's capped by your magic attribute * 10m like normal. Now you could make a giant picture of the far wall and have that walking around and changing as appropriate, but anyone looking at it from a different angle will quickly recognize that isn't actually the far wall, but a giant picture of the far wall. So not really all that effective, except to put an image in front of a single camera.

QUOTE
So is there no official ruling on what phantasm can or cannot do?


Not that I am aware of.

QUOTE
However, I can see it being game brokenly powerful if you can change the effect at will as long as you sustain it, and the area can be moved as long as its within you line of sight.


In your example, the person can probably outrun the spell by turning a corner somewhere. She can still feel and see real objects, can still use her radio, and can definitely figure out she's in a spell. Why not just use stunbolt, and toy with her at your own leisure using other methods? It's safer and takes less drain.

But yes, if you wanted to make it look like someone was inside of a giant hamster ball that always stayed just out of reach, and monsters jumped out and yelled at her (but didn't actually try to touch her), I'd say you could do that. It would be pretty silly in most situations, though.

QUOTE
One other question relating to trid phantasm come to mind, since trid phantasm bends light and matter to fool sensors,


I suspect it doesn't bend light or it would be a manipulation spell. It works by MAGIC.

QUOTE
would not a person, outside the area of the spell, still see the effects of the illusion?


Indirect illusions affect anyone who has LOS (or is otherwise within sense range). It's not like invisibility stops working if someone is 300 yards away. (Although the hamster ball idea is a lot funnier if they can't.)

Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (nezumi @ Mar 6 2008, 08:44 PM) *
Hermetics in SR3 don't get bonuses to anything.

Sure they do, +2 to manipulations and earth elementals but a -1 to detection spells and air elementals. Well, if you choose to be an earth elemental mage, the bonus shifts according to the element chosen. (MitS, page 17)
Whipstitch
QUOTE (nezumi @ Mar 7 2008, 05:03 PM) *
I suspect it doesn't bend light or it would be a manipulation spell. It works by MAGIC.

The book says it does. It just bends the light by magic. Remember, illusions basically trick the mind, which is akin to mind manipulation spells, yet they're still Illusions rather than Manipulations. Meanwhile Combat spells all used to fall under the purview of Manipulation once upon a time. I imagine it's all really just a matter of approach, since practically everything could be considered a Manipulation spell if you want to get really nitpicky about it. Just think of it as a matter of technique; even if you're getting an effect that has a bit in common with Manipulation spells, you still go about casting the spell in a way that is more similar to what is considered Illusion magic than anything else.
MadPiper
It seems they put a cap on how long control thoughts work in 4th. Does that apply only in combat, or all the time. Also, control actions, or control thoughts, which would you prefer, pound for pound, it seems overkill to take both really. I dunno, any opinions is always appreciated.

Kinda off subject, but is there any news when the new printings of SR4 will be out?
Fortune
QUOTE (MadPiper @ Mar 8 2008, 01:32 PM) *
Kinda off subject, but is there any news when the new printings of SR4 will be out?


On February 28th, Rob had this to say about the matter ...

QUOTE (Rob)
Word is that the latest SR4 reprint (the fifth printing) is now available to retailers, and may even be in some stores already. So if you’ve been waiting for the book to come back in stock, go order it now!

nezumi
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Mar 7 2008, 07:04 PM) *
The book says it does. It just bends the light by magic.


I finally got a chance to check my book and actually, no, my book doesn't say anything of the like. You must be using a heathen text.
Fortune
The book talks about 'bending light' in the description of the Invisibility/Improved Invisibility spells ...

QUOTE (SR4 pg. 202)
Improved invisibility creates an actual warping of light around the subject that affects technological sensors as well.
nezumi
No, no, I'm pretty sure mine doesn't say that either. As I said before, you must be referencing some wicked Immortal Elf tome.
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