Whee, going crazy with the new threads this week!

Cue Keith Flint with "Firestarter"

So - having read the background count rules more thoroughly, there seems to be no penalty in the rules as written for standing outside an area of background count, and casting spells into it. Those spells (by rules-as-written) are at full effect.

Do people like this? Does it make sense to work like that? Would anyone house-rule it to work differently? Howso?

I'd actually be tempted to say that spells cast into an area of background count have the background count penalty (or bonus) applied to their force as they cross the border ... so like a spirit's force deflates as it crosses the border, maybe the spell's force deflates in the same way?

Comments/suggestions?

The only way a spell would get a bonus is if syncs with the tradition of the caster and it is the right type of spell.

For example, in an area with higher mana flow, and it has a love "flavor", then casting a combat spell into it is going to lower the spell's force. Now if you use an orgasm spell... well, who ever is the target is going to have fun.

Not having SM with me, I'd likely make a bonus to the resistance dice of those in the area...I mean, there are SOME advantages to background count sites. Of course, I'd have to reread SM for me to be 100% on the issue.

When Spellcasting, in SR4, the magician draws and molds ambient mana into a spell with his mind, channeling it through his body (causing Drain), and "across" the targeting link (be it visual, ritual, symbolic, or whatever) to the target/subject of the spell where the mana coalesces in a specific magical effect. Though this is treated as instantaneous, it is in fact a three-part process and there are things that can interfere with each one of the three "parts".

Domains/background counts interfere with the final "part," meaning that they affect the mana that is meant to coalesce into a spell effect (typically reducing the effect, but potentially amplifying it depending on the domain's aspect).

For the record, mana barriers of various sorts interfere with the middle part (the targeting link) regardless of whether the link is visual, ritual, symbolic, etc.

yeah I hear what you are saying and I'd definitely make it a house rule that the spell's effect is penalized normally once it enters the background zone

So, for example if you cast a spell at a Cyberzombie will the cyberzombie's background count reduce of amplify the effect, does it stack with the cyberzombie's magic resistance? (if there's such a thing. I remember something along those lines but I may be mistaken)

There is no additional inherent "magic resistance" in SR4, although cyberzombies now get Immunity to Normal Weapons.

Cool, so in game terms (trying to interpret Synner's post):

A mana barrier provides resistance to a spell affecting something shielded (thus adding dice to the target's resistance)

An area of background count reduces the power of the spell? When a mage is standing in a BC, it isn't the BC affecting the mage directly, it's affecting the mana that is creating the spell.

So, my two house-rule candidates are now:

• Reduce the force of the spell by the background count's absolute value versus all targets that are inside the BC
• Have the casting mage roll the spellcasting test as if they were standing inside the BC area - this gets messy of course if it's a multi-target spell with some targets inside the BC area and some outside, the mage's player would have to roll the spellcasting test twice, once for all targets outside, once for all targets inside. However, this would be closest to the existing mechanic.

I then thought about a mage standing in BC trying to cast a spell affecting something outside the border, and was about to say "Should this be at no penalty", but the IC action of pulling the spell's affect together (drawing the mana together and commanding it) is going to be affected by the BC.

So: I'd say the BC penalty (if it's causing a penalty) affects a spell casting if either the mage themselves OR the spell's target is inside the area of BC.

The BC bonus (if the area of BC is friendly to the spellcasting) only applies if BOTH the spellcaster and target are inside the BC.

What do people think? I know it's a rare situation, and one that might come up once ever in a campaign, but heh ... I like exploring the boundries of rules and systems like that Makes me feel like I have a more complete understanding.

See, I interpreted Synner's post to say that the main bit of the spellcasting process that is affected is the spell's result on the target.

So for a magician with Magic 4, casting an F4 spell into an area with a background count of 2, the spell would start as a F4 spell for casting purposes (i.e. Drain, Net Hits etc.) but would only manifest as a F2 spell on the target (so Net Hits past 2 would be dropped).

Casting out of the area would be similarly affected, but for a different reason. The reduction in Magic from being the background count area would only allow the magician to cast up to F2 spells without Physical Drain anyway, so only F2 is being passed to the target.

Note that I was specifically responding to the question of background count affecting spells cast from outside at something inside a domain.

The opposite effect, of course, is equally true. Background count can also affect (negatively or positively) a spell being cast from within a domain to a target outside the domain — in which case background count is hampering or aiding the first "part" of the spellcasting process above.

samuelbeckett has it pretty much spot on above.

The only circumstances where this gets a bit complicated is when both caster and target are in different domains/background counts.

Indeed, and I think I'm beginning to settle on my house rule for these scenarios:





Essentially, "a spellcaster takes whichever conditions would be worst for the spellcasting" when casting across domain borders. And that will never result in a bonus, unless casting across two domain borders, both of which are sympathetic (but one less so), in which case take the lowest bonus. (but come on, when is that ever going to happen?)

So, is this (below) right?

Given a scenario where you have a mage with magic 4, casting a powerbolt at force 4 at a target, and there happens to be a local background count of 1 in the area.

Caster and target both in background count: Caster's magic is reduced by 1, so casting force 4 now does physical drain. Spell effect is reduced by one, so target resists as though the spell was force 3.

Caster outside background count, target inside: Caster's magic not reduced. Spell effect is reduced by one, so target resists as though the spell was force 3.

Caster inside background count, target outside: Caster's magic is reduced by 1, so casting force 4 now does physical drain. Spell effect is not reduced, since the magic coelesces at the target's location.

Same scenario, but casting force 4 Fireball. (Which travels from the caster to the target, instead of coelescing at the target's location.)

Caster and target both in background count: Caster's magic is reduced by 1, so casting force 4 now does physical drain. Spell effect is reduced by one, so target resists as though the spell was force 3.

Caster outside background count, target inside: Caster's magic not reduced. Spell effect is reduced by one, so target resists as though the spell was force 3.

Caster inside background count, target outside: Caster's magic is reduced by 1, so casting force 4 now does physical drain. Spell effect is reduced by one, so target resists as though the spell was force 3.

Close, but not quite, although I see how I misunderstood my earlier post (I should have been more clear).

I "reduce the spell's force for crossing a border if the caster was outside the area of backgroud count" because it is simpler than having the mage roll the spellcasting test as if their magic was lower, especially in the case where the caster is throwing an area spell that affects targets both inside and outside the background count. How can one dice roll be made with two different dice pools at the same time? It can't and the only way to work it would be for the mage to roll the whole spellcasting test twice, with two different dicepools, using one result versus the targets inside, and one result affecting the targets outside.

Thus, I reduce the force of the spell when it goes inside as a neater (but slightly different) way of handling the same mechanic, without forcing a second set of dicerolls.

So ...

If the caster is inside the area of background count then every spell they cast is going to be affected by the BC, so their magic is reduced for everything they cast, and there's no need to ever reduce the force of a spell they cast. Just run it as the book says, as if both target and caster were inside the background count (lower the caster's magic attribute and nothing more).

If the caster is outside the area of background count and casts a spell into the area, well - their magic score should be unchanged, because they are not in the background count - BUT if they cast a spell into the area, then we need to simulate that deflation. We could ask the player to re-roll their spellcasting test as if they had lower magic, or we could just knock the background count's rating off of the spell's force (unless it was a sympathetic background count).

That makes it pretty easy to remember, and can be used as a quick house rule without any extra mess. It ONLY comes into play thoguh if the spellcaster is outside the area of background count, casting spells into the background count - if the spellcaster is inside, then just use the standard rules from Street Magic.

It also makes sense I think, and prevents a magic-rating-3 mage hovering in astral 300 metres above an essence-rating-minus-5 cyberzombie (outside its aura and away from it's jump/climb range for melee attack) and bombarding it with manabolts until it falls down.

I don't want to even consider what happens to a fireball that was cast outside of background count, and then passes through a zone of background count (coming out of the other end) before it hits its target

Actually no. Apathy is correct if I read him right.

If both the caster and the target are inside the BC/domain, then both the caster's Magic and the Spell Force are reduced (or enhanced).

If the caster is inside and the target is outside the BC/domain, then only the caster's Magic is depleted (or enhanced)

If the caster is outside and the target is inside the BC/domain, then only the Spell's Force is depleted (or enhanced)

When both targets are inside different BC/domains, then the caster's Magic is reduced (or enhanced) by his current domain and the Spell's Force is depleted (or enhanced) by the BC/domain the target is in.

Ouch...so if both caster and target are in the BC, there is a double whammy. In the example I put above, F2 is the max the caster can manage before Physical Drain, and the spell will be F0 (and effectively fizzle out without success I assume) when it hits the target. So to achieve anything meaningful inside the BC/domain you are talking Physical Drain and max Force overcasting...

Synner, how would you call it if there was background count between you and the target, but neither of you were actually within the affected area. LOS has to pass through it, so would it cause any disruption in the spell force?

Hang on - that's outside of the published rules in Street Magic.

By Street Magic, the force of a spell that is cast is never enhanced or reduced by background count, only the caster's magic atribute was (and in turn that would limit the force of spells they could cast).

I proposed adjusting the force of a spell being cast crossing the border into a domain as a simple way of handling a confusing situation, but that's only a house rules proposal, it's not in the book at all. I wouldn't penalise a mage twice if they were casting inside a domain (by reducing their magic, limiting them to lower force spells, AND then reducing the force of their spells as well).

You are right, there is nothing specifying reducing the Force of cast spells in Street Magic, but it does state that sustained spells and quickened/anchored spells have their Force reduced, which is some precedent for reducing the Force of normally cast spells.

Maybe one for an errata or FAQ?

There is stated that you pay drain as if the spell where Force+Backgroudn Count -> so effectively you just cast the spell at at higher force to regulate the drained force...