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ikarius
Looking at the astral perception quality in Street Magic, I wonder what the point is?

It seems pretty reasonable to begin with- taking it gets you a magic attribute of "1" which cannot be raised, and you can then bind a weapon focus.


Unfortunately, it then slides into total uselessness from what I can tell. "The magic attribute is subject to the normal essence loss rules".

I was originally taking a look at this as a possible route for mundanes to actually be able to participate in combat with spirits that have immunity to normal weapons; Take astral perception, bind a weapon focus, and you're no longer completely and utterly useless in combat when a dual-natured spirit shows up.

But if that 1 point of magic is subject to "normal" essence loss rules, the moment you put ONE iota of 'ware in, it's gone. Bye bye astral perception, bye bye weapon focus. I can't even envision a character who isn't either some sort of magician who doesnt have some sort of 'ware.

Is the trait as useless as I think it is?

Is there any other reasonable way to allow sammies to not become totally useless when a spirit shows up with "immunity to normal weapons"?


ToreadorVampire
That does seem silly, and maybe a mistake/oversight. I'd house rule that so that as long as you have one (full) point of essence left, then you keep the magic point.

You'd be mad to be a non-spellcaster and have no 'ware at all.
Whipstitch
I wouldn't call it a mistake or oversight. People keep bringing this up yet neglect to notice that Spell Knacks and Astral Sight work rather well with the Latent Awakening quality. You start off the game with cyberware and then you Awaken and gain your point of Magic once in play-- Voila; a groggy Samurai who can peer into the astral but whose primary talents lie elsewhere.
Dashifen
It also works nicely when paired with martial arts or other abilities that can help a mundane to be viable. I have a successful character with the Astral Sight quality who acts primarily as the face, but is also a spirit-killer. When Arsenal came out I enhanced her with the martial art that can increase one's attack of will vs. spirits. Works out really nicely, you just have to think outside the box.
Nightwalker450
Astral Perception, Spirit Knack, and Spell Knack...

Are these affected by background count? As soon as you enter any type of background you loose them? Or do those only affect Magicians, Mystic Adepts, and Adepts?

If someone could clarify this for me, otherwise they are even more useless.
paws2sky
QUOTE (Dashifen @ Mar 12 2008, 01:06 PM) *
It also works nicely when paired with martial arts or other abilities that can help a mundane to be viable. I have a successful character with the Astral Sight quality who acts primarily as the face, but is also a spirit-killer. When Arsenal came out I enhanced her with the martial art that can increase one's attack of will vs. spirits. Works out really nicely, you just have to think outside the box.


At that point, why not buy Adept (also 5 BP), spend your one Power Point on Astral Perception and call it a day?
Same end result, plus you get some added character improvement options if you choose to pursue them.
ArkonC
IMO the Astral Sight Quality is completely and utterly stupid...
It costs 5 BP, gives you 1 magic which you cannot increase and Astral Perception...
You can learn Assenssing and Astral Combat Skills...
You can initiate to learn Metamagic related to Astral Perception...
And you can bond weapon foci that will only work in Astral Combat...
Compare that to the Adept Quality:
It costs 5 BP, gives you 1 magic which you can increase, which you could spend on Astral Perception...
You can also learn Assenssing and Astral Combat Skills...
You can initiate to learn adept Metamagic and increase Magic beyond it's natural maximum...
And you can bond weapon foci that will always work when used...

Seems like an easy choise to me...
Unless I've missed something...

EDIT: paws2sky beat me to it... nyahnyah.gif
coolgrafix
Bear in mind that you're talking about the Astral Sight quality found on page 24 of Street Magic. Astral Perception is something else completely. Threw me off when I was initially trying to research this. =)

Some relevant passages for those discussing this:

QUOTE
SR4 page 164...
Anything that reduces a character's Essence will also reduce Magic. For every point (or fraction thereof ) of Essence lost, the character's Magic attribute and her Magic maximum rating are reduced by one. A character with a Magic of 4, for example, whose Essence is reduced to 5.8 has her Magic immediately reduced to 3 and her maximum to 5. Further Essence reductions do not reduce the character's Magic again until Essence drops below 5.

If a character's Magic is ever reduced to 0, she can no longer perform any kind of magic. Th e magician has "burned out," losing all magical ability and becoming a mundane forever. She retains all magical skills and knowledge, but lacks the ability to use them. Active skills become Knowledge skills.


QUOTE
New Awakened Qualities
Listed below are some new qualities that are available to Awakened characters if the gamemaster approves. For more information on qualities in general, consult the Qualities section, p. 77, SR4. Unless otherwise specified, a character must possess the Adept, Magician, or Mystic Adept qualities to obtain any of these.

Positive Qualities
The following positive qualities are available to Awakened characters.

Astral Sight
Cost: 5 BP
Astral Sight grants mundane characters the ability to perceive into the astral plane. This quality is not available to characters who possess the Adept, Latent Awakening, Magician, Mystic Adept, or Technomancer qualities. This quality may only be taken during character creation and cannot be obtained using Karma.

Characters taking this quality acquire a Magic attribute of 1 that may not be increased during character creation or raised with Karma. This Magic point is, however, subject to normal rules for the impact of Essence loss on Magic. Characters with Astral Sight may perceive into the astral plane just like magicians (see p. 182, SR4) and may also learn the Assensing and Astral Combat skills. They are unable to use any other aspect of magical talent besides astral perception, so they cannot learn or use Sorcery, Conjuring, or Enchanting. Characters with this quality may undergo initiation for the purposes of learning metamagics related to astral assensing or combat, such as Flexible Signature, Masking, Psychometry, and Sensing (see Metamagic, p. 52). Characters may bond with weapon foci, but bonus dice from these foci only apply during astral combat.
ikarius
Ahah.
Missed that it really would normally be paired with Latent awakening. Of course, folks are right, it's a lot more useful to pair latent awakening with adept and the "astral perception" power.


Thanks!
coolgrafix
Astral Sight can't be used with Latent Awakening.
ikarius
coolgrafix- you're not reading the entire description of "latent awakening". The character cannot have astral sight or any other "awakened" quality *before* latent awakening. When the character receives latent awakening, they receive one of the awakened qualities at the same time.
ArkonC
There is no pairing or taking at the same time, you can take either Astral Sight, Knack, Adept, Mystic Adept, Magician or Latent Awakening (or Technomancer)...
Latent Awakening just gives your character the chance of awakening later, during play...
Then you become an Adept or Mystic Adept, or whatever...
Whipstitch
Adept is pretty much always the optimal choice for a Latently Awakened character, since you get at least one Power Point worth of benefits relatively quickly whereas Magicians are big time Karma sinks and aren't really equipped to take advantage of Astral Perception/projection until you can afford to pay off the Quality and start picking up new skills-- a pretty big hurdle when you consider that a 15 bp quality translates directly to 30 Karma. That's beside the point though, because of one important fact: You don't just get to pick and choose the nature of your powers with Latent Awakening, the GM does. It's a good thing too, might I add, since the Quality'd be kind of a no brainer if it wasn't such a gamble. Sure, you might end up with something ridiculous like Spell Knack: Melt Drone if your GM wants to be a real dick about it, which would be terrible, since with such a low Magic rating the odds of you ever being able to cast the thing well enough to accomplish much is virtually nil. But on the other end of the spectrum there's scenarios like allowing a Street Samurai or Cyber Face to jump straight to Combat Sense or Kinesics for 5 bps and 16 karma despite all their 'ware-- a combination that could easily be a bit too powerful for some campaigns. Latent Awakening Adepts are extremely powerful after about 20-30 karma and a bit of planning, so I think it's perfectly fine that there's a useful ability like Astral Sight that GMs can give out instead that allows people to play characters with a sprinkle of Magic without upsetting the applecart, although at my own table I'd probably waive the cost of the new Quality in the case of Knacks and Astral Sight.
nathanross
I prefer Frank Trollman's new Aspected qualities:

Starting a Game
coolgrafix
QUOTE (ikarius @ Mar 12 2008, 01:56 PM) *
coolgrafix- you're not reading the entire description of "latent awakening". The character cannot have astral sight or any other "awakened" quality *before* latent awakening. When the character receives latent awakening, they receive one of the awakened qualities at the same time.


I'm wrong all the time, but Astral Sight says you can't take it if you have Latent Awakening. Latent Awakening says you can't take it if you have Astral Sight. What am I missing?

Street Magic p 25...
QUOTE
Latent Awakening
Cost: 5 BP
A character who takes the Latent Awakening quality starts the game as a mundane but may Awaken later and become magically active. At the start of the game, the character does not possess a Magic attribute and may not invest BPs in magical skills, spells, or bound spirits. The character may not have the Adept, Astral Sight, Magician, Mystic Adept, or Spell/Spirit Knack quality.

At some point during gameplay, the gamemaster may decide that the character Awakens. This decision is completely in the gamemaster's hands, and should be based entirely on creating a good story—and if the player is surprised, even better. Keep in mind that this is a chance for the player to roleplay the process of becoming magical—it should be a slow path filled with confusion, fear, and the sudden awareness of an entirely new world. It should not be viewed as a get-badass-quick power boost. The character is not likely to understand how to use or control his powers at first, and may need to seek the guidance of others.

When the gamemaster decides the character has Awakened, the character immediately gains a Magic attribute of 1. If the character has an Essence lower than 6 (due to implants or other causes), he still starts with a Magic of 1, but his maximum Magic attribute is adjusted according to the Essence loss. If the character's Essence is less than 1, he has lost any chance to be Awakened.

The gamemaster also chooses either the Adept, Astral Sight, Magician, Mystic Adept, or Spell/Spirit Knack quality, and immediately applies it to the character. This quality defines how the character has Awakened. The gamemaster should not, however, tell the player which quality the character has gained until the character figures it out for himself. This quality does not come free, of course. The character must pay for the quality with Karma, at a cost of (the quality's BP Cost – 5) x 2. For example, the Mystic Adept quality would cost 10 Karma (10 BP – 5 = 5, x 2). If the character does not have Karma available at that time, the gamemaster immediately collects it from any Karma rewards he earns until the debt is paid off.

The gamemaster may also choose one spell, adept power, or spirit type (as appropriate for the character's tradition) for the character to start with. It is highly possible that this is the magical power that character expresses when he Awakens. Keep in mind that many Awakenings occur as a result of stress—losing a loved one, being attacked, and so on. The character will not know how to cast this spell, conjure this spirit, or use that power until he has had proper training, of course—it is merely an accidental expression of the character's Talent, controlled entirely by the gamemaster. The gamemaster can, in fact, treat the character as if he has the Cursed quality (p. 26) for a limited period (and without the bonus BP), until he gets his magic under control.

If the gamemaster allows it, the character may also acquire other Magic-required qualities when he Awakens, such as the Mentor Spirit quality. The gamemaster chooses which qualities (positive or negative) to apply. These qualities must also be paid for—simply add the BP cost of all qualities together before subtracting 5 and multiplying by 2 for the Karma cost, as noted above.

Once the character has Awakened, he may learn and improve the Magic attribute, magical skills, spells, and other magical abilities normally, as dictated by his type of Awakening.

Larme
You quoted it right to us: "The gamemaster also chooses either the Adept, Astral Sight, Magician, Mystic Adept, or Spell/Spirit Knack quality, and immediately applies it to the character."

Nobody is saying that you can have both at once. The idea is that once you awaken with latent awakening, you could gain Astral Sight.
Jhaiisiin
If you need to, think of it from a character sheet standpoint. When you awaken, you erase the Latent Awakening quality and replace it with the appropriate magical quality from the list shown in that quote: "The gamemaster also chooses either the Adept, Astral Sight, Magician, Mystic Adept, or Spell/Spirit Knack quality, and immediately applies it to the character." Easy peasy.
coolgrafix
Hmm, I see what you mean. It seems either a contradictory rule construct, or an error. =)
coolgrafix
Seriously, it doesn't make sense. Both qualities are only available at character creation, but both are mutually-exclusive at character creation. Someone explain. =)

Edit: Oh, so you start with ONLY Latent Awakening, and the GM can override the "Astral Sight is only available at chr creation" portion. Hmm. What a lame-ass latent awakening THAT would be. wink.gif

"Yeah, um, thanks ref, but uh, I was hoping for something better when I spent those points at chr creation. Can you try again?" wink.gif
Nightwalker450
You can't take both at creation. You take Latent Awakening at Creation... Then sometime later the GM rules that you have awakened and assigns you an Awakened quality, your magic is set at 1, and you must pay the karma difference between the Latent Awakening and the new Awakened skill.

Only 1 is bought in creation.
cryptoknight
QUOTE (coolgrafix @ Mar 12 2008, 03:44 PM) *
Seriously, it doesn't make sense. Both qualities are only available at character creation, but both are mutually-exclusive at character creation. Someone explain. =)

Edit: Oh, so you start with ONLY Latent Awakening, and the GM can override the "Astral Sight is only available at chr creation" portion. Hmm. What a lame-ass latent awakening THAT would be. wink.gif

"Yeah, um, thanks ref, but uh, I was hoping for something better when I spent those points at chr creation. Can you try again?" wink.gif



No you start with Latent Awakening.. and can't have any other magic talents.

Then you use up Latent Awakening and the GM decides what Magical Quality to inflict upon the character. At that point, the character doesn't have Latent Awakening, because he or she has awakened. The character has magical power X... Magical Power X can be Astral sight, or it can be Adept, or it can be Magician, etc. As soon as you awaken, the Latent Awakening goes away.
coolgrafix
Nothing is said in RAW about the Latent Awakening quality "going away," although it must work this way in practical terms. For record keeping purposes, it should remain on the sheet with an annotation or something, at the very least. =)
KCKitsune
I would think that it would be very... lame if the GM didn't give the poor slot either Mystic Adept or Magician. Lets face it, an Adept is a life style that you would have grown up with. Casting spells... that is something that I can see just happening. Besides, the quality is balanced out by the fact you have to pay so much Karma to do ANYTHING.
mfb
i don't see that suddenly gaining internal magical abilities is necessarily any different from suddenly gaining external magical abilities. if you can suddenly and instinctively understand how to cast spells and summon spirits, there's no reason you can't suddenly and instinctively learn to move faster, shoot more accurately, etcetera.
cryptoknight
QUOTE (coolgrafix @ Mar 12 2008, 04:27 PM) *
Nothing is said in RAW about the Latent Awakening quality "going away," although it must work this way in practical terms. For record keeping purposes, it should remain on the sheet with an annotation or something, at the very least. =)


It's logic... expressing magic is described throughout BBB and SM as Awakening. Latent Awakening means you did it later

QUOTE ("Street Magic")
Once the character has Awakened, he may learn and improve
the Magic attribute, magical skills, spells, and other magical
abilities normally, as dictated by his type of Awakening.


It's not Latent anymore once you've awakened.

Dictionary.com defines Latent as
QUOTE ("dictionary.com")
la·tent /ˈleɪtnt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[leyt-nt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. present but not visible, apparent, or actualized; existing as potential: latent ability.
2. Pathology. (of an infectious agent or disease) remaining in an inactive or hidden phase; dormant.
3. Psychology. existing in unconscious or dormant form but potentially able to achieve expression: a latent emotion.
4. Botany. (of buds that are not externally manifest) dormant or undeveloped.


It refers to the first definition. Your magic ability is present but not visible or actualized. When you awaken, you aren't Latent anymore.
coolgrafix
Crypto, who are you arguing with here, exactly? =)
cryptoknight
QUOTE (coolgrafix @ Mar 12 2008, 04:54 PM) *
Crypto, who are you arguing with here, exactly? =)



I'm not sure... let me check again...
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